Subclassing was not meant for us.

Elowen_Starveil · April 29

CalamityCat wrote: »

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

I love it when people get hung up on the actual numbers instead of reading them -- surely as intended -- as different ways of saying "a lot" or "a little."

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 29

Daoin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

When I first heard about subclassing I thought we were getting a choice of what classes to combine and it would be just an option for some build variety/RP. I had no issue with that. Likewise, I don't care what the top end DPS happens to be in game. As long as that number is obtainable by both pure and subclass builds then it's just a number. Again, no issue.

What we actually seem to be getting is a whole lot of changes and nerfs to balance classes around subclassing. Oh and they're not done with those changes, as this beauty was in the last PTS patch notes:

"For those looking for combat updates, don’t worry. We’re giving you the heads up that next week will have a large chunk of combat adjustments. Stay tuned for PTS Week 4."

Reading that just confirmed to me that subclassing is the new shiny thing and the devs are going to put in a lot of time "balancing" to make it work. There's a distinct lack of balancing to ensure pure class builds can actually compete with the subclass ones which is where I'm concerned enough to step back from ESO. I would love to see that balance, then it wouldn't need to be a case of "subclassing isn't for us" because it could exist alongside pure classes and we'd all get to play the one that suited us.

So long as "alongside" means "as good as Spell Parasite runs compared to Turning Tide" then I am fine with it. My trifecta *dungeon* tank wears spell parasite, which is off meta but seems to work okay.

i read it but a bit to on the deep side for me to compute well, just was highlighting something on my level of like. the easy trifecta thing sealed it for me. this could be a good thing after all

I didn't say anything about easy trifectas, lol. I was talking about build options.

I don't even think the word easy or any variation of it was in my post.

peacenote · April 29

I disagree, both with the "not for us" and the definition of "us."

ZOS is a company; it needs to make money. It also does seem to try and listen to its players. However, (imo) it lacks a cohesive strategy, has frequent changes in direction (possibly changes in leadership of various internal departments?), and I've seen them roll out contradictory updates back-to-back. They don't always seem to be aware of the unintended consequences of their changes, and/or are not able to pivot when PTS feedback predicts the consequences. Since that particular kind of feedback is almost never acknowledged, we never know if it's a "this is a risk we had to take" situation or a purposeful change intended to change the distribution of the playerbase.

We also have absolutely no data on what drives profits and what kind of player is deemed most profitable, internally. Is it a subscriber? A non-subscriber? The longtime players or the new players? What kind of players tend to be "whales" and what changes make them stop buying? Also, I would bet that ZOS doesn't have as much data on what drives players to spend as they'd like, either, and that "what comes next" is decided as a mix of loud player feedback that comes through as "people would be excited about this" and what the devs think would be fun to work on. IIRC this was essentially confirmed when ToT was announced and there were multiple videos about how much they always wanted to put that into the game. THEY were excited... even when many players said "I am not interested and didn't ask for this."

I suspect that this is the kind of update they are hoping will re-engage current players, and draw returning players. I suspect they think everyone will like it, and they aren't ready for the unintended consequences. Just from watching history repeat itself, over and over. However, I don't think they are purposefully trying to exclude anyone, because if there's one thing they've stuck to over the years, it's encouraging players to explore ALL of the game... almost to a fault. (I generally support this idea but drops for some of those leads were brutal and really bordered on mean, causing some players to have to spend hours and hours in content they truly disliked, if they wanted the "reward.")

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Further, I hope this drives all the sweaty-weaving gatekeepers crazy and they leave the game over it.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this seems like a very sad sentiment, to me. IMO, in an MMO, it's a bummer when anyone leaves the community, even if their playstyle is different than yours. It takes a village. Your sentence is also worded in such a way that hints that all "sweaty" players like to weave and that all players who like a challenge are gatekeepers... which is just not true. I've met plenty of players who participate in trial trifecta progs but also run teams to help beginners or mid level players. Personally, I think there's room for all of us in this game.

Elowen_Starveil · April 29

peacenote wrote: »

I disagree, both with the "not for us" and the definition of "us."

ZOS is a company; it needs to make money. It also does seem to try and listen to its players. However, (imo) it lacks a cohesive strategy, has frequent changes in direction (possibly changes in leadership of various internal departments?), and I've seen them roll out contradictory updates back-to-back. They don't always seem to be aware of the unintended consequences of their changes, and/or are not able to pivot when PTS feedback predicts the consequences. Since that particular kind of feedback is almost never acknowledged, we never know if it's a "this is a risk we had to take" situation or a purposeful change intended to change the distribution of the playerbase.

We also have absolutely no data on what drives profits and what kind of player is deemed most profitable, internally. Is it a subscriber? A non-subscriber? The longtime players or the new players? What kind of players tend to be "whales" and what changes make them stop buying? Also, I would bet that ZOS doesn't have as much data on what drives players to spend as they'd like, either, and that "what comes next" is decided as a mix of loud player feedback that comes through as "people would be excited about this" and what the devs think would be fun to work on. IIRC this was essentially confirmed when ToT was announced and there were multiple videos about how much they always wanted to put that into the game. THEY were excited... even when many players said "I am not interested and didn't ask for this."

I suspect that this is the kind of update they are hoping will re-engage current players, and draw returning players. I suspect they think everyone will like it, and they aren't ready for the unintended consequences. Just from watching history repeat itself, over and over. However, I don't think they are purposefully trying to exclude anyone, because if there's one thing they've stuck to over the years, it's encouraging players to explore ALL of the game... almost to a fault. (I generally support this idea but drops for some of those leads were brutal and really bordered on mean, causing some players to have to spend hours and hours in content they truly disliked, if they wanted the "reward.")

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

Further, I hope this drives all the sweaty-weaving gatekeepers crazy and they leave the game over it.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this seems like a very sad sentiment, to me. IMO, in an MMO, it's a bummer when anyone leaves the community, even if their playstyle is different than yours. It takes a village. Your sentence is also worded in such a way that hints that all "sweaty" players like to weave and that all players who like a challenge are gatekeepers... which is just not true. I've met plenty of players who participate in trial trifecta progs but also run teams to help beginners or mid level players. Personally, I think there's room for all of us in this game.

Two things. First, I think we can chart where this game is going. Where is HAS been going, and where it CONTINUES to go: de-emphasizing weaving. The first big hit was U35, which rebalanced light attacks from 45% to 15% of your overall DPS (or *something* like that; don't quote me). The second big hit was Oakensoul and Arcanist, which are end-game builds (at least, oakensorc *was*), that didn't need much weaving. The third big hit is coming with sub-classing, which is going to make light attack weaving even less important to overall DPS, as everyone can have access to pets and the beam.

Second, I'm not being sarcastic. Weaving is a bug that became a feature, and it's difficult. I don't know of another game that uses this kind of mechanic. It's just plain odd. And I'm not good at it, on top of that. (I cap out around 80K with a meta-geared Arcanist.) As an amateur musician, I have great timing, and I understand the theory just fine, but each skill you use changes the weaving point in subtle ways, and the timing is not static. You can't "just hit" light attack 50ms before your skill. It depends on the previous skill's animation when you fire. I suppose a better way of describing my difficulties with it is that I am unwilling to put in the inordinate amount of hours required be better at it.

To me, it's clear that ZOS is acknowledging this awkward situation with their overall moves with the game. This is a tacit admission that they recognize that it's a barrier to people enjoying the game, because they're obviously trying to minimize it more and more. Yet, despite 1) that it's an odd, difficult thing to master and 2) ZOS moving the game away from it, this doesn't stop a virulent type of player of this game from showing up when I talk about this, and giving me a rash of crap for not being able to do 130K in white gear while I watch YouTube. It really annoys me, and I hope those people get lost and go play something else. No, I don't think those people are helping to make the community a broader, more-welcoming group.

CalamityCat · April 29

dk_dunkirk wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I love threads where players guess numbers like they're real statistics

I love it when people get hung up on the actual numbers instead of reading them -- surely as intended -- as different ways of saying "a lot" or "a little."

There was a wink after what I typed to show I wasn't being serious. Players often make claims about the proportion of players who do something or think a certain way, but it's just a bit of fantasy to add to whatever point they're trying to make. Which is why I made an (admittedly bad) joke about it.

This one may be a cat but she doesn't get hung up on numbers unless her nails need trimming...

Rungar · April 29

the trick to balancing the subclasses is in the passives so i wouldnt be surprised if next round youll see changes to the passive structure of classes so subclasses take a hit somewhere along the line.

Wildberryjack · April 29

I'm as casual a player as it gets and I can't wait for subclassing. I don't care if players with BIS gear will be able to do insane damage, I just hope they're in my dungeons runs! The only place this will matter is PvP so they will need to keep an eye on that but otherwise I don't see subclassing being a problem.

Warhawke_80 · April 29

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

gc0018 · April 29

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase.

I am only wondering money, where exactly does the money come from?

Because in most of the recent online game, money always come from top 5% of the players (among them, 1-2% of the players contributes 50%-70% or even higher to ~80% for some old games), based on some academical papers in recent 5 years.

I don't think listening to the forums or high-end players is a bad idea for pure business.

NoSoup · April 29

Is it going to be a giant hot mess at the start? Yes. Should it be abandoned? No.

I get the calls for the PTS to be extended and give it more time for development, I get that. But the fact is over the last 10 yrs the PTS and forums have slid so far in quality that they're no longer reliable. No amount of PTS testing is going to let them get this perfect for a release. You have to many players that have never downloaded the PTS giving their 2 cents worth, a big chunk of players going into the PTS with predetermined bias, leaving only a very small population of players actually testing and giving good, reliable action based feedback. This leaves the game in a position where taking stuff like this not fully fetched out to live as the only option. Once its on live, the real balance issues become more apparent and can be addressed.

We only have to look at History to see the pathway this is going to need to take. For those that have been around long enough think back to the progression of VR - Champion System. We went from a CP cap of 810 with 9 different constellations to a CP cap of 3200 with 3 constellations with major overhauls of the entire system to get to where we are now. It took years for the playing masses to accept its been a good change (anyone that had to grind a character to VR16 would know this was a good change, eventually). This will be much the same, its going to take a couple of major updates to get it looking balanced and yes it will be a hot mess at the start, but its the hot mess that will lead to it working.

And really, its no different to the release of Warden, Necromancer and Arcanists. All 3 were majorly OP AF when first released and slowly got their powers brought back down in line with the base classes.

cmetzger93 · April 30

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

katanagirl1 · April 30

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

TaSheen · April 30

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

Hard agree here. I empathize with the OP, and really think he's not one of the "high-parse elitists" at all.

StarOfElyon · April 30

PvP is going to be a nightmare of this goes live. You thought pve mains were afraid to pvp before? Now even pvp mains are afraid to pvp.

StarOfElyon · April 30

cmetzger93 wrote: »

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

That's because those are single player games. Who cares if your character is broken in a solo game.

Erickson9610 · April 30

StarOfElyon wrote: »

cmetzger93 wrote: »

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

That's because those are single player games. Who cares if your character is broken in a solo game.

PvP is already broken. Just look at what ball groups are able to achieve when working together. Compare that with the experience on the Vengeance campaign (where balance existed) and it's night and day.

Subclassing will only make the experience different. It won't make it worse than it already is.

katanagirl1 · April 30

Erickson9610 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

cmetzger93 wrote: »

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

That's because those are single player games. Who cares if your character is broken in a solo game.

PvP is already broken. Just look at what ball groups are able to achieve when working together. Compare that with the experience on the Vengeance campaign (where balance existed) and it's night and day.

Subclassing will only make the experience different. It won't make it worse than it already is.

Oh I’m pretty sure it will make things much worse. The tanky ball groups can do more with subclassing than without, just like regular players. Being in a group makes them stronger still. Those guys are already theory crafting for the most devastating builds. They’ll be ready to go when the patch drops.

EDIT: typo

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 30

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

tomofhyrule · April 30

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

Problem is we can’t say yet. Honestly, we can’t even say what viable now, because that all depends on your ability to play that build, your raid lead’s permissiveness, the specific trial, etc.

My raid lead is pretty laid back and says “if you can parse enough, that’s fine.” Our DB had 6 of the 7 Classes represented, 5 on DPS roles. But we all know how to play our Class and role well.

I recently did a vKA non-HM where 5/8 DPS were pulling under 50k with no real experience (one was even under 30k). For 5 people, it was their first vet Kyne’s, and one more it was their first Kyne’s run ever. And it was very smooth, and nobody wiped on the last pull at all. But we had well coordinated raid leads who had more than enough DPS alone to cover the gap. Sure, they likely wouldn’t be able to be ‘viable’ outside of that specific group, but it was decently smooth otherwise.

So what is ‘viable?’ Whatever your specific situation entails.

The problem is that if you set up a rando pug (instead of a planned guild run with experienced players soft-carrying), the expectations will be higher, and you have to deal with others’ biases. There is no problem with Oakenbuilds or other Heavy Attack setups, and I’ve done recent trifecta runs where the DPS did Oakensorcs. However, those are planned runs, not pugs. If you join a random group, you get what you get, and there is absolutely a stereotype of Oakensorcs not doing mechanics, which is why pugs don’t like them in general.

Subclassing as it is now also does hardcore reward min-maxing. If you’re just picking what lines look fun, they may not mesh well and you’ll probably get worse DPS. Each line will likely get a nerf because of interactions with other passives, so pure-class builds will also suffer a loss. I foresee the only people getting massive DPS gains are the ones who are already super sweaty, and then they’ll likely cause trial groups to raise their expectations for people.

So I actually think that Subclassing, while a noble goal and which could be good, will end up widening the gap between players and making trial groups more demanding. I’d love to be wrong, but that was essentially what we saw with Hybridization, and release Oakensoul, and Arcanist…

StarOfElyon · April 30

Erickson9610 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

cmetzger93 wrote: »

As a semi-casual player - I'm very excited about it. Being locked into a class was not very "Elder Scrollsy" and over the years has prevented me from enjoying the game.

That's because those are single player games. Who cares if your character is broken in a solo game.

PvP is already broken. Just look at what ball groups are able to achieve when working together. Compare that with the experience on the Vengeance campaign (where balance existed) and it's night and day.

Subclassing will only make the experience different. It won't make it worse than it already is.

It can and it will get worse. I can't wait to say, "I told you so."

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 30

tomofhyrule wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

Problem is we can’t say yet. Honestly, we can’t even say what viable now, because that all depends on your ability to play that build, your raid lead’s permissiveness, the specific trial, etc.

My raid lead is pretty laid back and says “if you can parse enough, that’s fine.” Our DB had 6 of the 7 Classes represented, 5 on DPS roles. But we all know how to play our Class and role well.

I recently did a vKA non-HM where 5/8 DPS were pulling under 50k with no real experience (one was even under 30k). For 5 people, it was their first vet Kyne’s, and one more it was their first Kyne’s run ever. And it was very smooth, and nobody wiped on the last pull at all. But we had well coordinated raid leads who had more than enough DPS alone to cover the gap. Sure, they likely wouldn’t be able to be ‘viable’ outside of that specific group, but it was decently smooth otherwise.

So what is ‘viable?’ Whatever your specific situation entails.

The problem is that if you set up a rando pug (instead of a planned guild run with experienced players soft-carrying), the expectations will be higher, and you have to deal with others’ biases. There is no problem with Oakenbuilds or other Heavy Attack setups, and I’ve done recent trifecta runs where the DPS did Oakensorcs. However, those are planned runs, not pugs. If you join a random group, you get what you get, and there is absolutely a stereotype of Oakensorcs not doing mechanics, which is why pugs don’t like them in general.

Subclassing as it is now also does hardcore reward min-maxing. If you’re just picking what lines look fun, they may not mesh well and you’ll probably get worse DPS. Each line will likely get a nerf because of interactions with other passives, so pure-class builds will also suffer a loss. I foresee the only people getting massive DPS gains are the ones who are already super sweaty, and then they’ll likely cause trial groups to raise their expectations for people.

So I actually think that Subclassing, while a noble goal and which could be good, will end up widening the gap between players and making trial groups more demanding. I’d love to be wrong, but that was essentially what we saw with Hybridization, and release Oakensoul, and Arcanist…

Wait so you're saying build variety is actually really good, and it may be possible to still clear vet endgame content with a pure class after subclassing? Who cares if people can't hit 170k+; looks like 50k dps is tolerable so long as your mechanical knowledge is there.

Or are you saying "viable" depends on context, and trying to dodge my question? Clearly I'm talking about the "viable" everyone is crooning about, so in your post, the random pugs or whatever. What builds are currently viable there? What are people genuinely afraid of that they can do now but can't do then?

What is, actually, genuinely, truly, the complaint about subclassing?

twisttop138 · April 30

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

Will there be more viable builds? Probably so. I'm also a mid tier player, but I'm curious who's keeping you out. It may take some trial and error but I'm sure there are tons of guilds that will love to have you and teach you trials. My main guild, social guild, we take everyone who wants to go. We will gladly teach mechanics and fights. We've gotten many casual players their first clears. Last night we got some their first vet clear. My vet trials guild is a little more strict on builds and gear but that's for the team and I've seen people ask to run whatever wacky build and no one has a problem. Not if you wanna do trials tri's and perfectas you will probably have to conform to the meta but again it's not about the individual but the team. If you really want to do endgame then keep looking.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 30

twisttop138 wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

Will there be more viable builds? Probably so. I'm also a mid tier player, but I'm curious who's keeping you out. It may take some trial and error but I'm sure there are tons of guilds that will love to have you and teach you trials. My main guild, social guild, we take everyone who wants to go. We will gladly teach mechanics and fights. We've gotten many casual players their first clears. Last night we got some their first vet clear. My vet trials guild is a little more strict on builds and gear but that's for the team and I've seen people ask to run whatever wacky build and no one has a problem. Not if you wanna do trials tri's and perfectas you will probably have to conform to the meta but again it's not about the individual but the team. If you really want to do endgame then keep looking.

I'm not being "kept out" in the sense that I want to, but can't. I've not got the drive to do so. There are sometimes things I'd like to do (such as VMOL for the skin) but the effort to find a group actually outweighs the effort I think I will have doing the trial, which means waiting for a group to exist in groupfinder (at a time when I have time to bang out the trial) is probably fine.

But this is sort of my point; I'm not actually sure subclassing will damage endgame. I think it's an excuse to complain about change, rather than a genuine fear that reflects the situation currently-on-the-ground.

Daoin · April 30

so the question still remains though is having classes there in name only a good thing, i think not for alot of players

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 30

Daoin wrote: »

so the question still remains though is having classes there in name only a good thing, i think not for alot of players

Why not? What reason?

Daoin · April 30

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

so the question still remains though is having classes there in name only a good thing, i think not for alot of players

Why not? What reason?

well ive seen alot of replies to the subclass fiasco all over explaining why for them, for me personally the gains are not enough. but remain happy for people willing to sacrifice eso class system for it

BXR_Lonestar · April 30

@FoJul

Well, my biggest issue with this, is that even if there is a top 1% that may set the norm, I shouldn't have to be forced to play exactly like you to get those numbers. Every class should have potential to get those numbers. Different playstyles should be able to get those numbers.

I disagree with this. Every class should have their strengths and weaknesses, but just because an Arcanist can hit 130k doesn't mean that a NB also needs to hit 130k.

Every class should bring something unique and desirable to a group so that you WANT a great mix of classes and builds, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be equal on a 1 to 1 basis. The game isn't even like this now, but this is where I think they should go in the opposite direction of subclassing, which I see as more of a step towards homogenization. Instead, they should be buffing the subclasses to emphasize each class' strengths.

An example of this is the NB - why does the Templar and not the NB have the most devestating single target execute (Radiant oppression?). The nightblade ought to be a designated finisher character - the most deadly single-target damage character in the game, especially on the flanks. They should not only have the most devastating execute, but you should be able to execute earlier than other classes, and it should crit more often (or perhaps trigger a unique debuff that increases group damage).

They can take that kind of mentality and apply it to each of the classes so that they all bring something good and desirable to the table. Will they all hit for the same DPS or be capable of being great healers or tanks? No, but that is the point of classes. They all do something well and other things not so well.

A lot of people want to play this game where they only want to play 1 character, but this game really isn't like Skyrim or Oblivion where you have 1 character that can do everything. This is why we have so many character slots and its what gives the game a ton of replayability. Why would I have 11 characters if 1 character can do everything?

If they go down this road, then I can see them eliminating racial bonuses as well - because that will be one of the only things creating any differences in characters...

IMO, they ought to be leaning in more into class identity, not implementing things that will ultimately marginalize them.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · April 30

Daoin wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

so the question still remains though is having classes there in name only a good thing, i think not for alot of players

Why not? What reason?

well ive seen alot of replies to the subclass fiasco all over explaining why for them, for me personally the gains are not enough. but remain happy for people willing to sacrifice eso class system for it

I suppose a lot of the replies have been "It will reduce the number of builds able to do content" which I think we just figured out is not true...

LadyGP · April 30

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I have been saying this since subclassing has been announced. It will be a bad change for the game and it could be one that ultimately puts the nail in the coffin of endgame play for ESO - because I'd still come back to enjoy questlines.

Sure, broken subclassing will be fun - for a time. Being super OP will always feel fun for a time, and then they either have to scale up difficulty of new content to cater to the new power levels (not going to be fun for the average player), or they're going to have to nerf everything to the ground, at which point, what was even the point of subclassing to begin with? Neither option is good. This game isn't D&D and it is simply not build to be set up for subclassing.

They need to take this idea and put it on the back burner IMO and focus on something else to keep players more engaged. I'd rather see them get more creative with their set designs, incorporate more abilities from IA elsewhere in the game, etc.

And understand that Oblivion Remastered just released. I could easily sink 2k hours + into that game. So if they mess this up, players (like me) now have a good alternative to go to.

Yeah, unfortunately I gotta agree with you on this one — and as usual, you nailed it with your post.

Feels like there’s a very high chance this is exactly how it’s gonna play out. They’re gonna push this out, and we (gamers) are gonna make some absolutely busted OP builds. If power creep was what they were trying to solve... well, this ain’t a creep anymore, it’s a full-on “hold my beer” moment.

Overland might not feel it much, but PvP? Gonna be chaos. And their “we’ll be watching” line about PvP... yeah, that’s not exactly reassuring. That side of the game’s already been bleeding players for years. Vengeance was literally the first time I’ve seen real hype and player return in like 5+ years. And now? Once this hits live, the tryhards (yeah I’d put myself in that group, even if I’ve been deep into Oblivion and KCD2 lately) are gonna be cooking up some cracked stuff. One-shot builds were already a problem... now it’s about to get real silly. Permablock tanks? Worse. Builds that just absorb everything and still nuke people? Worse. And don’t even get me started on ball groups. You think we’re not gonna min/max subclassing to hell and back? We already are....

Casual players or anyone already on the edge are gonna see this and just dip. It’s giving me serious U35 vibes again, especially from what I’m seeing in Discord. I just hope ZoS actually listens before this goes live this time.

My two cents? Since subclassing is clearly not getting shelved (they’ve dumped too much money into it already), here’s what I think they should do:

- Extend the PTS and get as much feedback as possible

- Hit up the community — send surveys, post on forums, reddit, discord, whatever. People are creative, and honestly you’ll prob get better subclassing ideas from the players than whatever is being cooked up internally

But the biggest thing imo:

Do NOT put this into Cyro. Instead, bring back Vengeance testing. Keep subclassing and Vengeance separate for now. You proved Vengeance can work and the feedback was insanely positive — so why throw a wrench in it by adding subclassing? Also… doesn’t adding this much complexity just wreck performance even more? Some skills already tank server frames — now imagine every sweaty player running subclass variants of them. Just feels like a massive oversight and completely goes against the whole point of the Vengeance push.

TL;DR:

- Slow down and actually gather feedback from the playerbase
- Don’t throw subclassing into PvP yet — keep focusing on Vengeance for now
- Fine-tune subclassing in PvE, keep polishing Vengeance separately, and only then look at putting them together later down the road

Do I think subclassing will be fun - 100%. But it has to be implemented correctly.

twisttop138 · April 30

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

So we're seeing DD with 170k dps parses, tanks with 160k damage shield and so on..
There is a fair number of people posting that subclassing cannot go ahead because it will break this game.

The thing is, if you are on this forum you are a minority player. I think forum posters generally represent no more than 5% of the playerbase. Most of my guildies who are active on discord do not have a forum account because they don't concern themselves with the latest patch update. Many of them only really notice the changes when something major has been nerfed (e.g. Jabs in patch 35 or Werewold tanking) and has a large enough impact to be noticed while doing their dailies.

So the issue is this: endgame is a broken mess before patch 46 and that isn't really going to change. But you can't balance a game around a small minority of players when the money is elsewhere.

FYI:
160k shield build

Wow...Your post drips with defeatism, as if the game's already doomed and nothing can be done. Claiming endgame is a "broken mess" before patch 46 without evidence is just hyperbolic whining—sounds like you're preemptively giving up. And the idea that subclassing will "break" the game? That's absurdly alarmist. Games evolve, mechanics shift; players adapt. Dismissing the forum as a tiny 5% minority while ignoring its role as a hub for engaged, vocal players is lazy—those "guildies" on Discord aren't the full picture either. Balancing for the majority doesn't mean ignoring the endgame; it means finding a sweet spot. Writing it all off as hopeless just sounds like you're shouting into the void for attention.

Seriously bro..It’s like you and those high-parse elitists are only happy when the game's tuned to keep casuals out, hoarding your precious 170k DPS and 160k shields. Balancing for the masses doesn't mean screwing the endgame; it means making it accessible without catering to a few tryhards who love gatekeeping the average player from the fun. Quit acting like the sky's falling just to keep the riffraff out of your exclusive club.

I’m lucky to hit 90k with my arcanist, but I was in a trials group. It’s not that the standards are set to keep people out, everybody has to meet them to get in.

End game players don’t care if a patch helps more casual players get better, if it does then there are more players who can get into trials and that’s a good thing.

Your comments make it sound like you think trial leaders are out to get you. It’s not about you, it’s about the team. With an attitude like the one you are describing, it would be almost impossible to get in anyway.

High parsing players won’t be hurt by this, they always find a way to keep pushing the envelope. It will demotivate the mid tier players and they will feel the nerfs the most just like with the “raising the floor and lowering the ceiling” did.

I posted earlier in the thread to try to understand this and no one replied, so here goes again:

Will there be more builds that are endgame viable, or will there not be?

That's my bottom line. I consider myself a mid-tier player who is kept out of endgame (or doesn't meet the standards for endgame) because of the theme I've chosen to run. If there are more total number of endgame-viable builds after subclassing than there are now, that means that more people like me have a chance of getting in because they run those themes.

If there are fewer endgame-viable builds than there are now, then that's bad.

Point of definition: there will always be the same number of best builds, because 'best' presupposes 'uniqueness' semantically. I'm not looking for best, just viable.

Will there be more viable builds? Probably so. I'm also a mid tier player, but I'm curious who's keeping you out. It may take some trial and error but I'm sure there are tons of guilds that will love to have you and teach you trials. My main guild, social guild, we take everyone who wants to go. We will gladly teach mechanics and fights. We've gotten many casual players their first clears. Last night we got some their first vet clear. My vet trials guild is a little more strict on builds and gear but that's for the team and I've seen people ask to run whatever wacky build and no one has a problem. Not if you wanna do trials tri's and perfectas you will probably have to conform to the meta but again it's not about the individual but the team. If you really want to do endgame then keep looking.

I'm not being "kept out" in the sense that I want to, but can't. I've not got the drive to do so. There are sometimes things I'd like to do (such as VMOL for the skin) but the effort to find a group actually outweighs the effort I think I will have doing the trial, which means waiting for a group to exist in groupfinder (at a time when I have time to bang out the trial) is probably fine.

But this is sort of my point; I'm not actually sure subclassing will damage endgame. I think it's an excuse to complain about change, rather than a genuine fear that reflects the situation currently-on-the-ground.

Ahh. I misunderstood. Here I thought I was giving a good pep talk lol. Your point about people being able to clear the content with 50k is true if the mechanics can be done. His example was on point though. Not everyone is going to have a group like that though where people are teaching and can pick up the slack. For the vMOL pug you're talking about, people will of course want everyone to pull good DPS for the best chance to clear.

Will this damage endgame. I think it has the potential to. As I said, I'm a mid tier guy. I'm still learning and don't have any trials hm clears besides the craglorn ones. So I try to not speak about it due to lack of knowledge. I will say this though. I've played since console launch. I don't have the biggest confidence in Zos to do this right, or to not come through in update 47 and smash everything to bits.