seriously, please shut down this post (SOLVED)

MasterSpatula · April 25

It's very likely I'm going to walk away for a few weeks or months, leave the people who don't hate theorycrafting and meta chasing to figure out the new normal, and adapt to whatever they come up with when I feel like coming back.

I am immensely disinterested in build experimentation. I just want to play. ZOS is doubling down on everything I dislike about the game, but the things I like are still there.

Hopefully, when the people who don't feel like weeping blood at the idea of rebuilding their characters over and over figure out the best approaches to subclassing, they'll have come up with a good, viable setup that I don't hate.

But maybe not.

Wereswan · April 25

Daoin wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Since you can still play your class as is and be viable for the most part i question the whole "identity" thing. I mean there will be way more classes to choose from. Im sure the popular ones will gain names one way or another at some point.

identity is having two high cp templars playing one of them as a healer with a healers name and one as damage dealer with a more tougher name rather than using the armoury to change roles and spending absolute years developing them as a character for that class and just that class. just as one example

I wonder what Tamriel calls the "Ship of Theseus."

sans-culottes · April 25

Wereswan wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system

Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this

No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.

licenturion wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

The restaurant analogy doesn’t really hold here. This isn’t about someone being fussy about seasoning or spice levels. It’s closer to being a vegetarian who walks into a kitchen and sees their dish being prepared with beef tallow, bone marrow, and pork lardons. At that point, no matter how well it’s plated, they already know it’s incompatible with their values and preferences.

Subclassing isn’t just cosmetic for many players. It reshapes how classes function, how roles interact, and how identity is expressed in group play. If someone built their playstyle and investment around a particular class concept, and that concept is structurally altered, then they don’t need to wait for the garnish to know it’s not for them.

Daoin · April 25

Wereswan wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

Since you can still play your class as is and be viable for the most part i question the whole "identity" thing. I mean there will be way more classes to choose from. Im sure the popular ones will gain names one way or another at some point.

identity is having two high cp templars playing one of them as a healer with a healers name and one as damage dealer with a more tougher name rather than using the armoury to change roles and spending absolute years developing them as a character for that class and just that class. just as one example

I wonder what Tamriel calls the "Ship of Theseus."

not sure but i dont consider my 2 templars as even the same entity or even anywhere close. one is a constantly drunk thug and the other a dedicated and serious healer. with the armoury only there to either change thier respective sets or skills not what they actually are at thier core. while subclassing would devalue this in an extreme way and in essence be changing what the class actually is, and infact be destroying what any class represents in eso the game we actually paid for and the classes we bought to enjoy as a singular class. i can just about live with changes to the classes over the years but i cannot say i am happy about totally destroying all the classes and thier identities. sort of like just bringing a hammer to the toolkit of tweaking and saying put it back together however you want to its not my job to fix things and no longer anyones to moan about them, for example the did not sell the arca with healing springs they sold us purs arca class with no mention of a warden skill line welded onto it, or a couple of skill lines. otherwise i laugh and continue playing warden with my warden. laughing again and telling myself never, not even for an extra 10k dps or 50k for that matter. in an ideal world for me personally the PTS server would become the permanent home for subclasses. or make a server for them alone. but thanks the question did give me alot of food for thought and im definately going with the stand-alone sub-class server route, but i would still want me toons pic all over my fave cereal box for participation

MJallday · April 25

Wereswan wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system

Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this

No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.

licenturion wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Well you say no - I say yes. . What has Happened here has split the fanbase. Not everyone is happy. Not everyone is unhappy - that’s the point

thinkaboutit · April 25

Idk whats so hard about just make more content lol

Desiato · April 25

Daoin wrote: »

am i the only person in eso to feel cheated out of all the cash i spent on eso for 10 years now a simple hammer has been added to the toolbox of never ending tweaks, system of class identity crashing not landing ? and losing friends in-game to quitting or losing heart because of this terrible update ?

No. This is generally how some players feel every time there's a major update.

I would guess there have been updates you may have loved, but others felt as you do now.

I've had a lot of 'la fin du monde' moments in ESO myself. Do you remember Malefic Wreath? And actually, I feel the same as you about subclassing. I don't like it.

But I don't feel cheated. All the fun moments I've had in ESO still happened, even if I walk away forever today. We're not building anything in ESO long-term except memories and, possibly, relationships.

Daoin · April 25

Desiato wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

am i the only person in eso to feel cheated out of all the cash i spent on eso for 10 years now a simple hammer has been added to the toolbox of never ending tweaks, system of class identity crashing not landing ? and losing friends in-game to quitting or losing heart because of this terrible update ?

No. This is generally how some players feel every time there's a major update.

I would guess there have been updates you may have loved, but others felt as you do now.

I've had a lot of 'la fin du monde' moments in ESO myself. Do you remember Malefic Wreath? And actually, I feel the same as you about subclassing. I don't like it.

But I don't feel cheated. All the fun moments I've had in ESO still happened, even if I walk away forever today. We're not building anything in ESO long-term except, possibly, relationships.

had to look the skill up but once i saw it i believe that was at a point where i was inbetween playing eso for the first time and making a new account to play eso but when i saw the skill something rang a bell about people chatting about it at the time. , it was not until much much later i played NB for the first time. for me order went.. high elf sorc - nord DK --- NB-- from there the other classes with long gaps inbetween changing/adding classes. and i swear not one update happened i could not live with even today its so petty my biggest gripe was with i think it either the AS daggers or arena daggers cant remember when activating cloak changed and no longer did 2 sets of damage, even updates swished passed me without much complaint except for this one. for me this one damages classes to much to not think i wont be permenantly fogged off about now. i think someone hit the nail on head a while back in the post, my pure no pet sorc is like the leader of my big eso toon family now. looking back now i think both happened in same patch and thats why i remembered it. could be wrong

Wereswan · April 25

MJallday wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system

Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this

No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.

licenturion wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Well you say no - I say yes. . What has Happened here has split the fanbase. Not everyone is happy. Not everyone is unhappy - that’s the point

Those of us who are unhappy about what's coming are aware that some people are hyped for this change. We can see that. It's not a mystery to us.

We're frustrated that our concerns are being summarily dismissed, belittled, or flat-out ignored—especially when some of those concerns are already being borne out by PTS testing.

coop500 · April 25

AzuraFan wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server. It is still 5 weeks away.

If it's optional, great. But reports from PTS say that unless you subclass, you'll be left behind. Also, skills are being changed/nerfed to accommodate subclassing, so it's not optional if the skills you like to use are being gutted for a system you're not interested in.

But to be fair, maybe they'll manage to balance 3000+ combinations in a way that doesn't involve gutting anything. After all, they did manage to balance the pure classes and...oh, wait.

Couldn't have said it better myself haha

licenturion · April 25

Wereswan wrote: »

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Yes 4 to 10 percent of the population apparently. But they still sell it and 90 percent doesn't have the problem with it. You can find an outer case for anything in life.

Which is exactly the case here. If you look at it realistically, we heavy forum users are probably not even 1 percent of the ESO player base. So ZOS is not going to cancel or delay a big feature announced in a showcase and hyping up a lot of people.

So shouting for the feature to be cancelled like some do is totally unrealistic and unproductive. The best way here is to either help testing the PTS, find new problems or examples and post feedback about them so they can be looked at. Those 'I quit' posts are technically forbidden by the official forum rules anyway.

Unfadingsilence · April 25

Daoin wrote: »

am i the only person in eso to feel cheated out of all the cash i spent on eso for 10 years now a simple hammer has been added to the toolbox of never ending tweaks, system of class identity crashing not landing ? and losing friends in-game to quitting or losing heart because of this terrible update ?

Let's be real.... no one said you had to spend real money on the game, that's your own choice and sure it sucks but still if the company decides one day to just shut the servers down altogether, then what? And yah I've spent well over 20k of real money on the game probably more since I play on all platforms and not just NA but even on EU as well... "just not Playstation EU" BUT it's still the choice that I made. It's just like it's your choice.If you want to spend money on this game

ADarklore · April 25

Daoin wrote: »

one of the elephants in the room though is we paid real cash for something eso does not offer anymore, our classes, through good and bad we played them except those of us who subbed along the way did not know we were the ones paying for the hammer to smash them up when tweaking obviously was going nowhere. people i guess paid for classes and thats what they expect to get

You still have your classes... ESO has nerfed/buffed classes for YEARS so there is honestly no difference with this update... and this is an OPTION to utilize subclassing, you can keep your class identity by just not using it. And the complaints about, "We'll be forced to..." has been a part of ESO with every update. Furthermore, you are always free to create your OWN groups and stop following those who demand that you 'play their way'. ZOS believes they need to make serious changes to bring new players in or bring old players back for the long-term survival of the game, and I honestly wouldn't be coming back if it wasn't for subclassing.

Wereswan · April 26

licenturion wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Yes 4 to 10 percent of the population apparently. But they still sell it and 90 percent doesn't have the problem with it. You can find an outer case for anything in life.

Which is exactly the case here. If you look at it realistically, we heavy forum users are probably not even 1 percent of the ESO player base. So ZOS is not going to cancel or delay a big feature announced in a showcase and hyping up a lot of people.

So shouting for the feature to be cancelled like some do is totally unrealistic and unproductive. The best way here is to either help testing the PTS, find new problems or examples and post feedback about them so they can be looked at. Those 'I quit' posts are technically forbidden by the official forum rules anyway.

This is where that second sentence—the one you clipped off—becomes important. The person I replied to said we cannot judge whether we're going to like something or not by the raw ingredients going in. Cilantro's just one example where you absolutely can. It's not even the most common example I could've chosen: nut and shellfish allergies are both more prevalent and more likely to result in a case of anaphylactic shock, for instance. But the point, again, was that this was a bad analogy.

But having started at "4-10% of the population" (which is, incidentally, still millions of people,) we go from there to "forum users aren't necessarily representative of the broader game population" and thence to the vaguer "hyping up a lot of people" and... yeah. That's the "dismiss, belittle, and flat-out ignore" I was talking about.

To be clear, I absolutely do expect a spike in the server population on launch day, and have said so already. Some of it will be people like me who couldn't care less about subclassing, but want the next part of the story. Some of that absolutely will be people who are psyched up for subclassing. Probably enough to make up for the people who sign in, see that their favorite class was gutted to rein in one or another of the 170K DPS monstrosities currently being tested on PTS, and leave for good.

(There's also a third group—probably the largest, in fact—that doesn't pay attention to announcements at all, and will be really surprised on launch day. I wonder how many cheating reports support will get.)

The question is what's going to happen in the ensuing months, as people get done with the new content, ZOS keeps playing whack-a-mole with the latest OP subclass combos, and the "shiny new toy" factor wears off.

Tariq9898 · April 26

I know this has been said countless times. But I’m gonna say my thoughts on it.

Pure classes need to stay relevant along with subclassing. I would even argue they need to be just as viable as subclassing in all roles.

This offers more option for players to truly play how they want without being forced to subclass to meet group demands.

Not every player wants to subclass. Why should they be punished for that?

With the current meta, the highest parse is around ~130k. With subclassing, it’s around ~170k. That’s a 40k increase from ONE person. Imagine the exponential damage increase when all 10 DPS used subclassing in a trial group.

This will lead to newer harder content that will scale off of subclassing and NOT pure class… Like bosses with a billion hp. Which will not only be the end of pure class but any sense of identity and variety. Everyone will use the same three skill lines.

scrappy1342 · April 26

Wereswan wrote: »

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

i think it's a great analogy. the game tastes like soap now

subclassing doesn't bother me so much as someone who avoids group content at all costs. but i get what ppl are saying and i don't think it's right how it's being done. it seems silly to me that they can't make it so that "pure" classes stay the same while the mix and match ones get some sort of debuff or penalty to keep things balance. or maybe turn it around and say that "pure" classes get a buff. but as others have pointed out, balancing is not really their forte

i'm not sure if the op meant this strictly to be about subclassing or just everything that is going on. there's many other things going on that ppl don't like. the false advertising on the subscription discount. the way they are doing new content. that's what did it for me. i've never agreed with the pricing for their new content (chapters, season pass, whatever you want to call it. they are pretty much all expansion packs). so i paid my sub and waited for things to go to eso+. if they gave away a house or something with the zone event, i'd pay half price and could justify that. but now they cost even more and it looks like you are getting even less. we used to get 2 zones a year (which are incredibly small compared to new zones in other games that give you 5+ new zones every expac). it's just not worth it to me anymore. you can do new chapters here in a day if you really want to. maybe spread it out over a week. and that's that. going back to ffxiv and in a year+ if/when solstice makes it to eso+, i'll pay for a month subscription and i'll do gold road and solstice

Daoin · April 26

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

am i the only person in eso to feel cheated out of all the cash i spent on eso for 10 years now a simple hammer has been added to the toolbox of never ending tweaks, system of class identity crashing not landing ? and losing friends in-game to quitting or losing heart because of this terrible update ?

Let's be real.... no one said you had to spend real money on the game, that's your own choice and sure it sucks but still if the company decides one day to just shut the servers down altogether, then what? And yah I've spent well over 20k of real money on the game probably more since I play on all platforms and not just NA but even on EU as well... "just not Playstation EU" BUT it's still the choice that I made. It's just like it's your choice.If you want to spend money on this game

i was quite happy to spend money to further improve all of my toons individuality not help to destroy that along with other peoples at the same time

Daoin · April 26

licenturion wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Yes 4 to 10 percent of the population apparently. But they still sell it and 90 percent doesn't have the problem with it. You can find an outer case for anything in life.

Which is exactly the case here. If you look at it realistically, we heavy forum users are probably not even 1 percent of the ESO player base. So ZOS is not going to cancel or delay a big feature announced in a showcase and hyping up a lot of people.

So shouting for the feature to be cancelled like some do is totally unrealistic and unproductive. The best way here is to either help testing the PTS, find new problems or examples and post feedback about them so they can be looked at. Those 'I quit' posts are technically forbidden by the official forum rules anyway.

stongly disagree with your opinion here, however it is yours so its valid, also what about the 'hey dudes my friends are quitting all around me please stop this nonesense' posts ? leaving with one important word 'classes' in the sentence. also i said ealier now i would be a supporter of subclassing if it was given a server of its own for people to wierd out on the classes with

wolfie1.0. · April 26

licenturion wrote: »

It is wild to me how some people are in full drama mode over an update with an OPTIONAL system that is currently in testing and only had the chance to receive 1 small hotfix on the beta server. It is still 5 weeks away.

If you want to be dramatic, angry, upset etc at least wait until it is actually live and people have actually experience the final version of it. It is also optional if you don't want to use it. So don't use it if you are so against it. U are not forced to use scribing or companions either. And if people want to control how others look or play, online games are not the right genre.

This reminds me of the all the prerelease theatrics of Assassins Creed Shadows where people made it seem the world would end, but in the end it is the second most sold title of 2025, and it only is a month out yet. Pretty sure subclassing will be a hit among the general player base as well. ZOS has the data and marketing research to make decisions what to add.

third most, I am pretty sure the Oblivion Remaster has already or will very soon out sell Shadows.

Also, subclassing would only be "OPTIONAL" if the base classes outclass or are on par with the most powerful combination of subclass mixes, and even with the balancing changes, it doesn't take much to see that this wont be the case. the ONLY real good side of this is that unlike scribing everyone gets access and its not paywalled.

Its an additional can of worms, and i honestly feel that it will make balancing harder not easier. Now instead of balancing each class against each class with each class having 3 skill lines with flexibility within them for said balancing, you now have to look at each skill line and balance it against each other skill line. which means that its going to be harder not easier. That also assumes that ZOS doesn't complicate it more buy just adding more subclasses to choose from.

guess we will see.

wolfie1.0. · April 26

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

This argument works both ways, if you do not like build diversity, there are other games like World of Warcraft, who has plenty of confined and structured classes and specs.In fact, you can only play 1 specific spec of a class at any given time. Doesn't get more class-centric than that. Also, where was it announced that classes are completely going away?

You are missing a key point. This game was SOLD with classes with a GREAT sense of what it meant to be a dragonknight, or a sorcerer, templer, etc. What we paid for, was a game with classes. I bought this game because of in part, classes (I don't play classless games, I find them utterly boring).

When did they announce that classes were going away? When they released sub-classing. It is impossible to tell what class a class is if they use 3 skill lines from 3 classes. Playing a game with classes is not just playing the class you want to play, its observing the other classes playing around you. With sub-classing, this has gone away.

icapital wrote: »

ESO has always been about player agency and we, the players, deciding how we play the game. Build diversity and how we choose to build our characters is just a part of that agency. Want to be a mage and use heavy armor and a bow? Go for it. Want to be a knight in light armor who casts fire spells with a staff? Go for it. etc. etc.

Adding the ability to bring in new skill lines only adds to the diversity and player agency which I greatly welcome.

Build diversity is a farse due to the meta. One can not simply play a "mage in heavy armor with a bow" and expect to do well in a group setting. This is first and foremost an online game designed to be played with other players at some point in your adventure. That alone strips away "player agency".
The lack of PVP balance also strips "player agency".

And brining "new skill lines" in the form of " sub classing" does not bring diversity, it actually forced homogonization, because in order to get any of the cool rewards (found in vet trials and dungeons), the player is going to be forced to run the meta, which for players who purchased the game to play a class, is the opposite of player agency.

If build diversity is a farse, and everyone runs the same build, then does it really matter if you can identify their class at that point? and wouldn't that balance PVP by default?

icapital · April 26

thinkaboutit wrote: »

Idk whats so hard about just make more content lol

this made me chuckle for some reason lol

Daoin · April 26

please dont sway the conversation into pvp territory too far, thankyou. if they had wanted too they could have made many changes that take effect in only pvp zones. to get thing sort of undertood again, even if eso only consisted of a mage, barbarian and healer class system and asked us to pay for one then i want what i pay for not mix of all 3, the mixes being an exact copy paste of what the others can do. but like i said to another its thier game and they can do what they want with it, and if this is somehow futureproofing eso for them then im happy to roll with the punches yet again

WhiteScythe · April 26

I have unsubscribed from ESO+ which ended today. I am not a fan of these changes personally, I hate that the "content pass" doesn't discount based on what you already own. I already feel like the monetization of the game is super predatory.

I'm just a daily log in player lately for mount training and writs.

It just doesn't feel fun anymore.

Buffy121 · April 26

I grow tired of it all.

I joined ESO to enjoy new stories and get to know interesting characters. Lately however it seems the game is more about making new builds than questing. The constant changes to skill lines, armour sets and content difficulty mean I am updating my build much more often than I would like. Then there is the additional reworking due to champion points, scribing and now subclassing.

New questing content in the game gets smaller every year while combat changes seem to increase. I don't know what effect subclassing and overland difficulty changes will have on the game but I am willing to bet that I will have to spend even more time messing around with my build just so my character can complete game content.

I have been playing for about 9 years and I don't regret the money spent, but this constant merry-go-round of changes to my character is taking away time that could be spent enjoying the parts of the game I like.

As an earlier poster said 'IDK what's so hard about just make more content'

MJallday · April 26

Ryori729 wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

Mainly quoting because "soup" is what I called it a few weeks ago, and I want it to be a thing :-) I don't mean to focus on word choice but if two of three class lines can be replaced that isn't sub-classing, it is something else. To me it is just refrigerator soup cause you toss everything into one pot. I get some people will like that, and it likely will be fun for a while but there have been problems with balance since I started playing years ago. And it removes the idea of class identity (which they have been kinda doing for some time) which makes you wonder why even have classes except the code gut would be more extensive, I would think.

I would say most of these problems over time are caused by certain gear matched with certain classes and their passives. Just it is just a math thing that take all the gear combos and add a x3000 multiplier and something will be a problem. And it may take time for someone to find that broken combo because there are so many.

Yes, we have choices, but the game was built a certain way. There are many discussions in several areas on what ways to play are valid. For example, I don't like how PvP has gone. But my options are to get destroyed, not play in PvP, or adapt accordingly. There are builds that are fine in some content and stink in others.

I remember a person who wanted advice on builds and they didn't want to take it because they didn't want to be like everyone else. But the problem with that was that my bear pet could out DPS them. This is the extreme, of course, but saying "you can do what you want" only applies to solo play. After that you need a build that matches the goals. A build that is fine for a normal trial may not work for a trifecta run.

It is a soup because it’s now a blend,

Wereswan wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

MJallday wrote: »

There’s certainly a vocal amount of people who don’t like anything but a pure class system

Personally i would prefer that - but it involves balancing the game, which the team have conclusively proved time and again they can’t do

Therefore we are left with this “soup” of a system - which I suspect will cause more problems than it will solve

That all said - I’m excited to try it and I’ll have fun experimenting - so I’m not going to throw away 10
Or so years of game time because of this

No, there's a vocal amount of people who would've been just fine with a system where people could mix-and-match skill lines and end up just as good as the existing seven classes. What we're getting instead is a system where players can do that and end up flat-out better than the classes those skill lines come from—and because they end up better, they'll still be in the same relatively superior position regardless of what eventual nerfs get applied. And as evinced by responses in this very thread, when we raise objections we get told "adapt or die" or "if you don't like it, leave," while also being told we're over-reacting to nothing and it'll be fine.

licenturion wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

the origial question and a couple of replies confirm there is no specualation here on this topic, this is what is coming and friends and acquaintances are the ones already going or gone. how it actually performs once its out is not a question here. for me personally this is the fastest i have ever seen anyone actually truly quit playing even before the end of PTS, i swear i tried to water it all down but i cant

Sorry but if people already bail out before such a big system is out without even trying it in final form (or with a few early hotfixes), they are not really fans of the game at all.

It’s like walking out of a restaurant because you saw the ingredients being prepped and assumed you wouldn’t like the dish — without even tasting the final meal. You don’t know how it’s seasoned, how it’s presented, or how all the elements come together. Real fans at least stay to try the finished plate before deciding it’s not for them.

Did you know some of us have a genetic mutation that makes cilantro taste awful? Perhaps not the greatest analogy.

Well you say no - I say yes. . What has Happened here has split the fanbase. Not everyone is happy. Not everyone is unhappy - that’s the point

Those of us who are unhappy about what's coming are aware that some people are hyped for this change. We can see that. It's not a mystery to us.

We're frustrated that our concerns are being summarily dismissed, belittled, or flat-out ignored—especially when some of those concerns are already being borne out by PTS testing.

This must be your first day here if you think your concerns will be in anyway acted upon

Sorry to break it to you.. but they won’t be

Maggusemm · April 26

It will be a great update with a lot of options. Most players are happy with it and the others will adapt and also enjoy it. For sure.

Pixiepumpkin · April 26

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

This argument works both ways, if you do not like build diversity, there are other games like World of Warcraft, who has plenty of confined and structured classes and specs.In fact, you can only play 1 specific spec of a class at any given time. Doesn't get more class-centric than that. Also, where was it announced that classes are completely going away?

You are missing a key point. This game was SOLD with classes with a GREAT sense of what it meant to be a dragonknight, or a sorcerer, templer, etc. What we paid for, was a game with classes. I bought this game because of in part, classes (I don't play classless games, I find them utterly boring).

When did they announce that classes were going away? When they released sub-classing. It is impossible to tell what class a class is if they use 3 skill lines from 3 classes. Playing a game with classes is not just playing the class you want to play, its observing the other classes playing around you. With sub-classing, this has gone away.

icapital wrote: »

ESO has always been about player agency and we, the players, deciding how we play the game. Build diversity and how we choose to build our characters is just a part of that agency. Want to be a mage and use heavy armor and a bow? Go for it. Want to be a knight in light armor who casts fire spells with a staff? Go for it. etc. etc.

Adding the ability to bring in new skill lines only adds to the diversity and player agency which I greatly welcome.

Build diversity is a farse due to the meta. One can not simply play a "mage in heavy armor with a bow" and expect to do well in a group setting. This is first and foremost an online game designed to be played with other players at some point in your adventure. That alone strips away "player agency".
The lack of PVP balance also strips "player agency".

And brining "new skill lines" in the form of " sub classing" does not bring diversity, it actually forced homogonization, because in order to get any of the cool rewards (found in vet trials and dungeons), the player is going to be forced to run the meta, which for players who purchased the game to play a class, is the opposite of player agency.

If build diversity is a farse, and everyone runs the same build, then does it really matter if you can identify their class at that point? and wouldn't that balance PVP by default?

Exactly, this is why "build diversity" should be left to classes only. True diversity is to have different groups. PVP is best balanced by having core classes that the devs curate their power in balance passes, such as Vengeance Cyrodiil.

Pixiepumpkin · April 26

icapital wrote: »

thinkaboutit wrote: »

Idk whats so hard about just make more content lol

this made me chuckle for some reason lol

Because its obviously true. I mean so in your face true that its laughable that things are being done such as subclassing in the first place.

Subclassing is not necessary.

shadyjane62 · April 26

This is first year I am not subbing for a year. I gave it one more month for anniversary, but they even screwed that up with their "loot hotfix".

What would it have cost them to let us have a few gold items to enjoy while we have our "best" event.

Now I rarely even log in other than to get daily gift and do the dailies. And now that there are no purple boxes, I even have skipped the dailies for the first time in eleven years.

I will not subclass and therefore I will no longer be competitive. I own all the chapters and did not even finish the last two.

I will play differently in the future but I will stay playing free until something better comes along or I become so frustrated I leave.

I left other games and survived. And in fact I often receive e-mails inviting me back. Maybe someday I'll answer those e-mails.

licenturion · April 26

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

PVP is best balanced by having core classes that the devs curate their power in balance passes, such as Vengeance Cyrodiil.

I think this is going to be exactly what will happen in the future after they experimented more with Vengeance.

In the end they will probably land with something like hearthstone (the card game) did. You have the current 'wild mode' where anything goes without hyper focus on balance. And then you have Vengeance 2.0 where they have a curated pool of skills and sets that change every season to keep things fresh. And this mode will be the focus of balance. It will also have more players and better performance.

If you watched the post show of the direct you can clearly see how players and the devs themselves are super excited with Vengeance and I am pretty sure more of that is coming in future updates. They just aren't there yet.