Why we can ignore Reef Heart hole mech in normal ?

AvalonRanger · April 21

Why we can ignore Reef Heart hole mech in normal ?

If we keep ignoring portal mech in the Cloudrest, then we'll be wiped (without super high damage).
But in "Dread Sail Reef" of normal, just "Failed" message pop up, and nothing. No wipe and No damage.

Ununited rule makes multiple common sense among the players in the same game title, It's simply bad as game design.
And this mistake is the biggest failure of ESO through this 10 years. Dev team must rethink their game design attitude.

spartaxoxo · April 21

Easy mode is supposed to be more forgiving than normal and have less mechs. If you'd prefer vet trials, just run those.

AvalonRanger · April 21

In the City of ash 2, we can swim across the boiling lava river. In the Vateshran hollows, we can't.

ZOS should play "Super Mario Brothers retro game" for education basic game design rule and basis.

spartaxoxo · April 22

AvalonRanger wrote: »

In the City of ash 2, we can swim across the boiling lava river. In the Vateshran hollows, we can't.

ZOS should play "Super Mario Brothers retro game" for education basic game design rule and basis.

Okay. But that's different to normal trial mechs being less lethal. Are you asking for everything to work the same in all group content?

kargen27 · April 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Easy mode is supposed to be more forgiving than normal and have less mechs. If you'd prefer vet trials, just run those.

there is more forgiving and then there is why bother. Normal (my opinion) is a staging ground for veteran and being able to just ignore mechanics does not prepare players to go to the next level. Many players are shocked by the difference in difficulty between normal and vet trials. Some so much so that they give up trying. Usually it is mechanics failures that cause the frustration. If they couldn't be skipped for normal trials players would go in with a bit of knowledge and experience.

For the hole mechanic they could give more time and/or not require time to cleanse between trips to the bottom. The mechanic should be required in some way though so players become aware it exists.

spartaxoxo · April 22

Snipped for brevity

kargen27 wrote: »

there is more forgiving and then there is why bother. Normal (my opinion) is a staging ground for veteran and being able to just ignore mechanics does not prepare players to go to the next level.

I think normal is moreso meant to be a way of allowing people who don't do vet content to experience it. If their intention for normal is to only be vet lite then they aren't doing a great job of it. But if it's to make the content more accessible then it does a pretty good job of that.

I disagree that every mech needs to be represented in the normal mode. You can go into the water if you're interested in learning but it not necessary if you are not.

DenverRalphy · April 22

Normal dungeons and trials used to be harder. And they didn't just get easier because of power creep. They were made easier to appease a subset of the playerbase.

Dunno if nDSR got that treatment though since I was on hiatus for a couple years that encapsulated its release.

Fischblut · April 22

Skipping Reef Hearts on normal can cause wipes, if tanks/healers are not too strong. Boss enrages if Reef Heart is not destroyed, and I've seen the group wipe few times cause of it (tank goes down fast, then everyone else). After that, I was the only one who would always go and destroy the Reef Hearts in all my groups; nobody else ever went with me, and I wonder how many times it saved us time in case the group started wiping there if boss would enrage

I have even seen 2 Reef Hearts (yes, it's all on normal) in few different groups.

I also tanked this trial few times, nobody destroyed Reef Hearts - and enraged boss hit my tank surprisingly hard (third hit in a row would be fatal).

Necrotech_Master · April 22

Fischblut wrote: »

Skipping Reef Hearts on normal can cause wipes, if tanks/healers are not too strong. Boss enrages if Reef Heart is not destroyed, and I've seen the group wipe few times cause of it (tank goes down fast, then everyone else). After that, I was the only one who would always go and destroy the Reef Hearts in all my groups; nobody else ever went with me, and I wonder how many times it saved us time in case the group started wiping there if boss would enrage I have even seen 2 Reef Hearts (yes, it's all on normal) in few different groups.

I also tanked this trial few times, nobody destroyed Reef Hearts - and enraged boss hit my tank surprisingly hard (third hit in a row would be fatal).

the "enraged" boss on normal hits i would say roughly as hard or slightly less hard than the vet version

Wereswan · April 22

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

spartaxoxo · April 22

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

The Boss will spawn some hearts and a corresponding symbol will be revealed. You jump down the middle and go to that symbol and kill the heart down there. You have to synergize down the correct path. It will swirl you around in water to confuse. But just pay attention to your path that you need and kill the heart. Once you've been down there, you'll get a debuff that will kill you if you try to go back down again too soon.

Wereswan · April 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

The Boss will spawn some hearts and a corresponding symbol will be revealed. You jump down the middle and go to that symbol and kill the heart down there. You have to synergize down the correct path. It will swirl you around in water to confuse. But just pay attention to your path that you need and kill the heart. Once you've been down there, you get a debuffs that will you if you try to go back down again.

Aha! Thank you, now I know that.

kargen27 · April 22

Wereswan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

The Boss will spawn some hearts and a corresponding symbol will be revealed. You jump down the middle and go to that symbol and kill the heart down there. You have to synergize down the correct path. It will swirl you around in water to confuse. But just pay attention to your path that you need and kill the heart. Once you've been down there, you get a debuffs that will you if you try to go back down again.

Aha! Thank you, now I know that.

When you jump into the pool and start going around you will notice one of the symbols glowing. I think there are three streams/paths with one symbol on either side of the path so six symbols total. When you go down the path if the left symbol was glowing (if I am remembering correct) then when you stop flowing downstream attack that heart. If it was the right one you need to go around the corner a bit and hop into the flow to get to the 2nd heart location. It will be obvious if you need to go to the 2nd one because there will be nothing to kill in the first location.
Ignore the crab down there and just take out the heart. The crab can be a nuisance so a shield or self heal can come in handy down there. It's a fun fight and can get a little hectic in vet if your group burns a boss down a to a certain percentage about the same time a timer goes off.

thorwyn · April 22

Because on vet, the Reef Heart is a wipe mechanic, meaning you either play it, or you die. It's not just more damage or anything, you simply wipe the group. And since the mechanic is also rather complex and is pretty hard to "explain" without voice com, which many casual groups via groupfinder don't have acces to, they decided that it should be possible to skip. I don't really care about normal, but I think it's ok-ish, because new players are frequently complaining about the so called one-shot-mechanics and consider them unfair.
You analogies about CoA and VA are off the mark. You can't compare a dungeon to a solo arena. While the lava in CoA is just a way to get from a to b, the lava in VA has a mechanic attached to it (the sigil).
In terms of trials, one could argue that the portal mechanic in nCR is similar to the reef mechanic in terms of complexity and wipe potential. But Cloudrest is older than Dreadsail, so I guess they figured out later that normal trials should be toned down and don't have wipe mechs.

Edit: by sigil I mean that fiery orb of course.. not the actual arena sigils.

alpha_synuclein · April 22

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

MreeBiPolar · April 22

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

DenverRalphy · April 22

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

Hard no. There's zero reason why casual players can't follow encounter mechanics. It's this mentality that's constantly slowly eroding away at ESO's gameplay.

alpha_synuclein · April 22

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

The presence of mechanics do not prevent casual players from completing stuff. Not following mechanics should.

MreeBiPolar · April 22

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

Hard no. There's zero reason why casual players can't follow encounter mechanics. It's this mentality that's constantly slowly eroding away at ESO's gameplay.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

The presence of mechanics do not prevent casual players from completing stuff. Not following mechanics should.

Gatekeeping at its finest.

... Presence of the proposed "one player failed = wipe" mechanics absolutely would prevent casual players from completing stuff. If that was only that particular player dying, ok (like, e.g., someone failing to hop into the portal in ICP), but that causing a wipe is a definite no on normal (= casual).

twisttop138 · April 22

I think dread sail reef normal is a fantastic and fun trial. My social, non sweaty guild has are weekly trial run there often. We always do mechanics to help people learn in case they want to move on to our more vet content focused groups. Imo we do a disservice to players by thinking they are not able to handle simple mechanics. For normal you just make them less punishing, not hard wipes but enough to teach you that they exist. We have these fun runs where sorry is a bad word. We type mechanics in discord for our non mic people. Even our most casual, or elderly or anxious players are included and never once failed. Again I think it's a disservice to think that any player can't achieve simple mechanics, even if they have no interest in stepping up to vet. This is just my opinion though.

DenverRalphy · April 22

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

Hard no. There's zero reason why casual players can't follow encounter mechanics. It's this mentality that's constantly slowly eroding away at ESO's gameplay.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

The presence of mechanics do not prevent casual players from completing stuff. Not following mechanics should.

Gatekeeping at its finest.

... Presence of the proposed "one player failed = wipe" mechanics absolutely would prevent casual players from completing stuff. If that was only that particular player dying, ok (like, e.g., someone failing to hop into the portal in ICP), but that causing a wipe is a definite no on normal (= casual).

Huh?

How would it prevent casual players from completing content? How does being a casual player prevent them from following a mechanic? There's absolutely no reason a casual player can't hop into and close a portal.

AvalonRanger · April 22

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why we can ignore Reef Heart hole mech in normal ?

If we keep ignoring portal mech in the Cloudrest, then we'll be wiped (without super high damage).
But in "Dread Sail Reef" of normal, just "Failed" message pop up, and nothing. No wipe and No damage.

Ununited rule makes multiple common sense among the players in the same game title, It's simply bad as game design.
And this mistake is the biggest failure of ESO through this 10 years. Dev team must rethink their game design attitude.

In the City of ash 2, we can swim across the boiling lava river. In the Vateshran hollows, we can't.
ZOS should play "Super Mario Brothers retro game" for education basic game design rule and basis.

Now listen to me very carefully folks.
And please consider "major problem of ESO" which ZOS game planners actually did this
through this 10 years. Just please don't change subject.

In the "Super Mario Bros game".....

If Mario stand on the spiky ground or boiling lava, or fall from cliff and go to the bottom of valley...

Then player is dead. Simple logic.

And this logic works every zone of game level, so level design actually works as game design.

But, ESO is not. Even same normal mode trial, ZOS can't make the game based on united basis.

(I mean normal Cloudrest and normal DSR. Not about Veteran mode)
And ZOS made so much of "weird and strange" local rules everywhere for each of contents.

I've seen many times that PUG DPS jumped in fire AoE and Instant dead.
And also saw CP 2500 DPS suddenly charge against Scalecaller Peak first boss,
and dead just within 2 second after combat started...

Were they just too much careless? Maybe...yes. But I thought other feeling from those disaster.

If the game is Super Mario Bros, then they really do same stupid behavior on the combat field?

Well! How do you feel?

I'm really anxious about "Subclass" kind of things. Because ZOS didn't reflect on their major
game creation failure through those 10 years. ESO is excellent ElderScrolls for me,
but worst combat game for me also.

Heren · April 22

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Now listen to me very carefully folks.

Yeah no, just stop making the same thread just slightly altered over and over again. You don't like differences between normal and vet, sure, we got it. Now move on please.

alpha_synuclein · April 22

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

Hard no. There's zero reason why casual players can't follow encounter mechanics. It's this mentality that's constantly slowly eroding away at ESO's gameplay.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

The presence of mechanics do not prevent casual players from completing stuff. Not following mechanics should.

Gatekeeping at its finest.

... Presence of the proposed "one player failed = wipe" mechanics absolutely would prevent casual players from completing stuff. If that was only that particular player dying, ok (like, e.g., someone failing to hop into the portal in ICP), but that causing a wipe is a definite no on normal (= casual).

If doing mechanics is being called gatekeeping now, this word lost all it's meaning.

alpha_synuclein · April 22

twisttop138 wrote: »

I think dread sail reef normal is a fantastic and fun trial. My social, non sweaty guild has are weekly trial run there often. We always do mechanics to help people learn in case they want to move on to our more vet content focused groups. Imo we do a disservice to players by thinking they are not able to handle simple mechanics. For normal you just make them less punishing, not hard wipes but enough to teach you that they exist. We have these fun runs where sorry is a bad word. We type mechanics in discord for our non mic people. Even our most casual, or elderly or anxious players are included and never once failed. Again I think it's a disservice to think that any player can't achieve simple mechanics, even if they have no interest in stepping up to vet. This is just my opinion though.

This.

Renato90085 · April 22

it why if i join a pug ndsr try help , alway no anyone take dome/do bash/do reef/no swim/no break free in any boss
oh and when they join vet,it happen too
i think have a story mode and not drop reward/a training mode in normal trial is good change

thorwyn · April 22

And this logic works every zone of game level, so level design actually works as game design.

Yes.. comparing the consistency of Super Mario to a 10 year old MMO with dozends of dungeons, trials, arenas... makes sense. Not!

Wereswan · April 22

[

DenverRalphy wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Oh thank Stendarr this topic came up. Can someone explain how this mech is actually supposed to work? I have never, ever been in a group that actually did it.

This is why mechs shouldn't be completely skippable on normal. They should be much easier and less punishing, but we should never be able to ignore them. This is what makes the jump to vet feel so difficult.

This is why there should be the story mode to the dungeons for people who are interested in the story, not millimeter failure margins. Until then, normal should NOT have any mechanics which prevent casual players from completing stuff.

Hard no. There's zero reason why casual players can't follow encounter mechanics. It's this mentality that's constantly slowly eroding away at ESO's gameplay.

Honestly, having a story mode for group dungeons would be nice; it would end the nasty disputes between the people who've never been in there before and are trying to do the quest, and the others who are there because it's the random normal daily and want to be done with it as fast as possible. I've tried to do as many as I can on my own so I'm not testing anyone's patience by waiting around for the story bits, but some have hard group checks that make it impossible.

sarahthes · April 22

Personally, as an endgame raider, I think the difficulty jumps between normal, vet, and HM in the newest trials are spot on.

spartaxoxo · April 22

sarahthes wrote: »

Personally, as an endgame raider, I think the difficulty jumps between normal, vet, and HM in the newest trials are spot on.

I've wondered about this with Lucent Citadel. I'm not ultra endgame raider but I do have some regular vet trial clears, including in Lucent. Lucent felt like a good difficulty for regular vet for me because it is doable in pugs but they won't all clear and mechs do need to be paid close attention to. The Crags are outdated at this point. But is the hard mode too easy? Or is it in a good spot, difficulty wise? I haven't done it but I'd hope it would be challenging to those who enjoy that level of challenge.

Orbital78 · April 22

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Easy mode is supposed to be more forgiving than normal and have less mechs. If you'd prefer vet trials, just run those.

The problem is that it doesn't get you ready for vet trials if you can just roll your face across the keyboard and clear it. But I stopped doing normals a long time ago, indeed.