PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Classes & Abilities

Alondil · April 17

FoJul wrote: »

Alondil wrote: »

On PVP SORC and NIGHTBLADE:

3. On the new PURGE meta:
- so now you can subclass templars purge / healing tree with wardens purge / damage tree for a delayed burst tool + the
best healing tools in the game AND... infinite sustain. with the combination of restoring rune, bull netch and cleansing
ritual sustain is no longer an issue AND dot damage as well as any other delayed damage / debuff that is placed on you
is completely removed. this effectively ends dots as a viable way to play pvp and makes these 2 subclass skill lines feel
mandatory for any kind of experienced pvp. add the aforementioned nightblade assassination skill line to the mix and
you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity in mid to end
game pvp. the recommended solution is to place a cooldown debuff on the player character preventing cleansing ritual
from cleansing anything more than once every 15 seconds. this allows dot builds and sticky damage / debuffs play styles
to have a place in pvp without being to onerous on templar players. This will also have little to no impact on pve.

Im friends with a lot of templars, and will be using plar skill lines going forwards with subclassing. I really don't think nerfing templars purge will solve anything besides make the pureclass worse. They synergy can may be abused but highly unlikely, it does what it does for a reason.

In just a 1v1 scenario, me on most classes, i prefer to have 1 or even 2 dots. When a templar purges those dots, its annoying but all i have to do is recast it. My 2 dots are still cheaper in resources then their 1 or 2 cast of Extended ritual. Remind you, this is a 1v1, I have zero issue putting dots on a plar with purge. Elemental susceptibility usually does a very good job of filling up that 5 negative effect zone that Extended Ritual purges. Now imagine in PvP when you have way more than just 1 or 2 dots.

Additionally, when you compare sustain, what you really should complain about is Nightblade and Siphoning Strikes. You dont even need netch or templar rune, it will single handedly carry sustain on any builds. So here we are talking about other class skill lines, which debunks the statement "you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity for mid to end game pvp." Each class has atleast one skill line that is absolutely great for pvp.

End game pvp consist of getting a group together and spam AOE burst ults, and run around till you get your ult again. Other than that its gankers, and small scalers who both choose their fights wisely, most of them are afraid to be clipped and shipped and memed on discord servers.

All in all, my main gripe is that templar purge DOES NOT need a 15 sec cooldown on their purge, it would make the skill 100% useless for solo/small scaled builds. It will only be used in ball groups where people can stack the HoT and spam the synergy.

Judging the build diversity on week 1 is a harsh take. Between just the few people I'm on pts with, we all have different approaches. And all are hitting insane numbers with different builds. Just have a little bit of hope.

You are probably correct on this change hurting pureclass plar which would be bad , however I would like zos to pay closer attention to interactions between the class skill lines where stacking similar effects may prove too strong.

As for Judging the build diversity on week 1 being a harsh take you may be right here, but I am of the opinion that the current plethora of diverse builds coming from this system is fleeting and only a process that once whatever this turns into hits live will last at most a month before the meta is established. As this system is handing everyone every option whatever meta is established will be less diverse then even what we have now on live. inevitably there will be a best damage tree a best sustain tree and a best defensive tree then once the sets that compliment them are discovered that will be it. maybe 2 or 3 variations maybe one or 2 oddball builds that play counter meta and everything else not measuring up. we may get slightly different builds for small scale vs ball group vs zerg etc but if you look what we have now with less options its pretty stale. In the end more options tends to breed less diversity as it removes the need to make impactful choices about skill selection and play style since there will always be a best thing for a given activity. Don't get me wrong I hope i am incorrect about all of this and zos manages to nail this system before it hits the live server so we do have more diversity and more interesting ways to play but to be completely honest the track record zos has had over the last few years with pvp design and implementation is not speaking to that being likely.

Whenever you look at pvp balance the goal is not every build is S tier that just means there is now only 1 build and its not realistic with any kind of diversity. the goal is that the absolute worst build in the game can complete with the absolute best build in the game in the hands of similarly skilled players. I think this game actually has had that from time to time but it does not seem like that was intentional, more along the lines of a broken clock being right twice a day at least as far as looking at changes that have been made in the past and the direction the game went. This system is going to make reaching that goal 10 times harder. It will require the dev team to be on top of it like never before and honestly for myself, a majority of the people i play with and most of the end game pvp players i talk to say this is a make or break moment for them. If this system fails to deliver its very likely that most of them and maybe even myself will be looking to move on to other games. Not trying to sound hostile or anything mind you just that the experience we are looking to get out of this game that we have loved for 10 years will not longer be there and if that is the case so be it. It was a good run. But i want to have hope that zos can do this.

In the end we shall see. Ty for your reply and for your constructive input. We need good feedback from everyone if this is going to nail it.

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 17

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Even if it does for an update or two, that's happened with other classes before subclassing. I've had classes benched in PvP because they were simply hopeless and locked into their terrible skill lines.
Have a little vision for the benefits of a system that can be changed without the worry of disrupting class balance and put down
Do all three Sorc skill trees have to be meta on the first pass? People just can't let go of that class identity stuff. It's skill trees now.

This has nothing to do with any class identity or skill trees, this is just a matter of fact. All of Sorc's skill lines are not worth using in Subclassing, which will not only destroy a Class, but also the entire game ecosystem.
If people think today that it is okay for Sorc's entire skill line to be unused, then tomorrow when NB's skill line is nerfed to the ground, people will also think that since there is a precedent, NB's death should also be allowed. Which profession should die next? What will we be left with in the end?

I’m seeing a lot of arguments that Storm-Calling is very viable for PvP, so it’ll get used. And Daedric Summoning will still be used by anyone running pet-sorc

ceruulean · April 17

Templars, sorcs, and warden DPS for PvE got gutted hard. I don't play sorc or warden dps but it's pretty obvious from the patch notes that they got nerfed. So at this point, I'm just gonna say that I don't really appreciate the nerfs to pure class skills. While necro and nightblade got buffs, they got buffed in a way where they boost other classes more than their own.

Here are the maximum dps potentials of each class in u45:

Stam Sorcerer: 144k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsmdFuhUXk
Your average HM player parses 133k

Stam necro if you can do high APM bash weaving: 139-141k (this video is u44 before rele set change)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GK69RxnGIY
Your average HM player, using a non-bash Goliath build, is going to parse 125-130k

Stam Templar 138k:
https://youtu.be/Yr5oDc44ERk?si=J2a10U67MEhsCDTl
Your average HM player parses 120-130k with this build

Mag DK 127k:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsmdFuhUXk
Average HM player parses 115-120k

Stam arc 131k:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Plv-qmOL04
Average HM player parses 115-120k

Magden 143k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3fluYDJwn0
I dont see a lot of warden parses, but I'd assume it's similar to necro's 125-130k because their rotation and sustain is tougher than sorcerer's

Stam NB 141k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxdWuzaTD4
Same deal, probably around 120-130k because of fiddly rotation. Also they have to go Vamp Stage 2 which nerfs their sustain, and they're the only class that needs a non-class line to do competitive damage.

Some things to note: Sorc, NB, and Warden are considered single target specs. Necro, DK, and Arc have superior cleave/AoE. Templar can switch between AoE and single target, but is mostly considered single target because of the execute beam.

---

If PTS v11.0.0 goes live, the devs are nerfing sorc and warden, which aren't even overperforming because they do single-target damage. I don't understand these changes at all.

DK gets a sustain nerf which hurts them in 4 man content, whereas warden/templar got buffed in 4 man content when they're already some of the best 4 man classes.

A NB buff is justified, but it was done in a way that ended up benefiting other classes. All NB really needed was increasing the monster buff on shadow cloak to 15%, because casting a non-damage skill is a dps loss that needs to be compensated.

They are changing templar to a cleave+beam class, except it's an inferior version of a tentacle class we already have... If you nerf the Radiant Destruction execute and give jabs AoE target cap, templar's niche as a balanced/semi-support DPS is destroyed and they won't be able to compete with DK/Necro in cleave, nor with NB in execute. Their pre-execute DPS and sustain are already subpar in U45, and making templars wait until 25% boss HP to not be dead weight is pretty sad.

Arcanist AoE cap is justified, but buffing Fatecarver damage is a dumb move. They are still 2nd best AoE class behind Necro, and have better range and easier piloting than any other class. Nerfing arc sustain actually ruins casual players and PvP more than endgame dpsers, because every other arc skill is expensive and they already struggle with sustain in dungeons. Magarc has terrible sustain still.

Reedii · April 17

I love to play werewolf however, the gap between other classes while in content and now subclassing it just feels so weak in comparison. and now after this patch goes live this would give even less reason for people to play the werewolf. I have a few ideas I would love to see changed for wolf to help it.

1- Pounce: make the pounce apply both parts of the skill in 1 cast as currently its near impossible to keep the 6 stacks in content with that 2nd cast, making the skill not worth using. ( I would love to see the pounce leave an AOE on the ground similar to stampede instead of the sticky DOT to allow access to so many of the ground ability sets we currently cant use)

2- Heavy attack: Allow the heavy attacks to also apply the bleed that the light attack applies using the berserker morph opening up options for some heavy attack builds. (Also after using ferocious roar the 1st heavy attack doesn't get the speed boost, I'm not sure if this is intended )

3- Skill slotting: Now that subclassing is an option there is no way the werewolf can gain anything exciting from this update. I would suggest that you can slot any skill you choose on your werewolf bar however, not be able to use the skill if its not a werewolf ability. This would allow the player to choose if they want to sacrifice some of their abilities to gain passives from their new subclasses.

4- Ultimate: Werewolf is currently very limited by what sets they choose run as they have no ground ability skills and no ultimate. I would suggest a very weak ultimate just to allow more options with sets such as war machine for example. my idea is that you can hold the ultimate button to drop out of wolf and press the ultimate button to use the werewolf ultimate. (maybe make the ultimate have a very small boost to other nearby werewolves to keep the pack mentality)

I hope that some changes come werewolf as this is a really exciting patch and I would like to also have my werewolf benefit from the changes.

FoJul · April 17

Alondil wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Alondil wrote: »

On PVP SORC and NIGHTBLADE:

3. On the new PURGE meta:
- so now you can subclass templars purge / healing tree with wardens purge / damage tree for a delayed burst tool + the
best healing tools in the game AND... infinite sustain. with the combination of restoring rune, bull netch and cleansing
ritual sustain is no longer an issue AND dot damage as well as any other delayed damage / debuff that is placed on you
is completely removed. this effectively ends dots as a viable way to play pvp and makes these 2 subclass skill lines feel
mandatory for any kind of experienced pvp. add the aforementioned nightblade assassination skill line to the mix and
you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity in mid to end
game pvp. the recommended solution is to place a cooldown debuff on the player character preventing cleansing ritual
from cleansing anything more than once every 15 seconds. this allows dot builds and sticky damage / debuffs play styles
to have a place in pvp without being to onerous on templar players. This will also have little to no impact on pve.

Im friends with a lot of templars, and will be using plar skill lines going forwards with subclassing. I really don't think nerfing templars purge will solve anything besides make the pureclass worse. They synergy can may be abused but highly unlikely, it does what it does for a reason.

In just a 1v1 scenario, me on most classes, i prefer to have 1 or even 2 dots. When a templar purges those dots, its annoying but all i have to do is recast it. My 2 dots are still cheaper in resources then their 1 or 2 cast of Extended ritual. Remind you, this is a 1v1, I have zero issue putting dots on a plar with purge. Elemental susceptibility usually does a very good job of filling up that 5 negative effect zone that Extended Ritual purges. Now imagine in PvP when you have way more than just 1 or 2 dots.

Additionally, when you compare sustain, what you really should complain about is Nightblade and Siphoning Strikes. You dont even need netch or templar rune, it will single handedly carry sustain on any builds. So here we are talking about other class skill lines, which debunks the statement "you have yourself one of the 3 - 4 mandatory meta builds that will inevitably crop up and end build diversity for mid to end game pvp." Each class has atleast one skill line that is absolutely great for pvp.

End game pvp consist of getting a group together and spam AOE burst ults, and run around till you get your ult again. Other than that its gankers, and small scalers who both choose their fights wisely, most of them are afraid to be clipped and shipped and memed on discord servers.

All in all, my main gripe is that templar purge DOES NOT need a 15 sec cooldown on their purge, it would make the skill 100% useless for solo/small scaled builds. It will only be used in ball groups where people can stack the HoT and spam the synergy.

Judging the build diversity on week 1 is a harsh take. Between just the few people I'm on pts with, we all have different approaches. And all are hitting insane numbers with different builds. Just have a little bit of hope.

You are probably correct on this change hurting pureclass plar which would be bad , however I would like zos to pay closer attention to interactions between the class skill lines where stacking similar effects may prove too strong.

As for Judging the build diversity on week 1 being a harsh take you may be right here, but I am of the opinion that the current plethora of diverse builds coming from this system is fleeting and only a process that once whatever this turns into hits live will last at most a month before the meta is established. As this system is handing everyone every option whatever meta is established will be less diverse then even what we have now on live. inevitably there will be a best damage tree a best sustain tree and a best defensive tree then once the sets that compliment them are discovered that will be it. maybe 2 or 3 variations maybe one or 2 oddball builds that play counter meta and everything else not measuring up. we may get slightly different builds for small scale vs ball group vs zerg etc but if you look what we have now with less options its pretty stale. In the end more options tends to breed less diversity as it removes the need to make impactful choices about skill selection and play style since there will always be a best thing for a given activity. Don't get me wrong I hope i am incorrect about all of this and zos manages to nail this system before it hits the live server so we do have more diversity and more interesting ways to play but to be completely honest the track record zos has had over the last few years with pvp design and implementation is not speaking to that being likely.

Whenever you look at pvp balance the goal is not every build is S tier that just means there is now only 1 build and its not realistic with any kind of diversity. the goal is that the absolute worst build in the game can complete with the absolute best build in the game in the hands of similarly skilled players. I think this game actually has had that from time to time but it does not seem like that was intentional, more along the lines of a broken clock being right twice a day at least as far as looking at changes that have been made in the past and the direction the game went. This system is going to make reaching that goal 10 times harder. It will require the dev team to be on top of it like never before and honestly for myself, a majority of the people i play with and most of the end game pvp players i talk to say this is a make or break moment for them. If this system fails to deliver its very likely that most of them and maybe even myself will be looking to move on to other games. Not trying to sound hostile or anything mind you just that the experience we are looking to get out of this game that we have loved for 10 years will not longer be there and if that is the case so be it. It was a good run. But i want to have hope that zos can do this.

In the end we shall see. Ty for your reply and for your constructive input. We need good feedback from everyone if this is going to nail it.

100% see what you saying about narrowing down builds to just a few class skill lines. Still though, in the grand scheme, I personally have already made 6 or 7 different mix and match builds that could easily be the next META. Or at least in the general vicinity. And each one does different things and has completely different identities.

One thing Im extremely excited about, is actually getting to use class abilities in general. In PvP and PvE, classes are restricted to using their mediocre skills, or weapon skills. Now we can choose what skills better suits our builds. For PvP, i usually have to run Degen on mag builds or blood craze on stam builds for a mediocre dot. Now I have a wide selection of dots i could use.

I'm a heavy theorycrafter, so most likely I'll prolly enjoy putting together 1000's of builds rather than actually playing any of them lol.

P.S. I ran into quite a few issues subclassing, regarding getting the right buffs. So as of RN my pureclass Rangeblade is still better than any of my subclassed ones. The only good thing about the subclassed one, is now I have a really good range stun, the cons is I lose major resolve, and minor intellect/endurance. And other additional cracked passives the Shadow skill line gives me.

jcole42397 · April 17

For Necromancer, specifically Sacrificial Bones and Grave Lord's Sacrifice, has there been any discussion on giving the skill some much needed QOL changes? The buff having a delay trigger because of the skeleton summoning makes it feel very clunky to use. Having the summon be instant (instead of the 2.5 second delay) and then having it die where it summons with a visual effect for the buff (similar to Necrotic Potency, and also eliminating delays caused by the skeleton chasing you) would reduce a lot of the issues presented by its current iteration.

I have also read that a lot of people simply want the skill reverted, and I wouldn't be opposed to that either. Regardless of what the design decision is though, I think the skill needs a facelift at the minimum.

ZhuJiuyin · April 18

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I’m seeing a lot of arguments that Storm-Calling is very viable for PvP, so it’ll get used. And Daedric Summoning will still be used by anyone running pet-sorc

Maybe, just maybe, Storm Calling still "might" be used in PVP, but look, Expert Mage forces you to cram in more Sorcerer abilities, otherwise the buff provided is very small, and this is further nerfed in U46, while Grim Focus provides more Weapon and Spell Damage, and can shoot two super high damage shots. Impale is also a better ranged executor than Mages' Wrath, as it starts executing at 25% and has a shorter delay.
While Physical might be useful for some builds, Shock Damage is very niche, so Energized isn't necessarily a passive that every build needs. In contrast, using Assassination can gain more powerful and versatile active and passive abilities.
The only abilities that Storm Calling can gain an advantage in PVP are Streak and Overload, but when the speed cap is easily reached, and because subclassing makes it easier to reach, Streak may not be able to maintain its current advantage. Overload is even worse because of well-known bug issues and the fact that other classes have more attractive ultimates.

As for pets, if the Expert Mage and Energized passives provided by Storm Calling to pets are removed, pet damage will be reduced a lot. At the same time, due to the nerf of Expert Mage, pet Sorc damage will be lower than before. Daedric Prey is no longer effective for proc pets, so Maw of the Infernal may no longer be used. Maw of the Infernal actually causes AOE damage when it breathes fire, so this will directly affect the pet sorc's AOE DPS, and even the single-target DPS may be lower than 140K (based on the pure class situation).
For pet Sorc, the only skill line that can be exchanged is Dark Magic, and this skill line also happens to be the skill line that Sorc needs the most buff, because other than Crystal and Exploitation, this skill line has no more damage abilities worth using in PVE. If I were a pet Sorc, I would prioritize swapping Dark Magic with Assassination or Dawn's Wrath.

Therefore, as others on the forum have been calling for, Dark Magic and Storm Calling need major buffs or reworks, otherwise when Arc gains over 150k single target and aoe damage through subclassing, Sorc, whether non-pet or pet sorc, will be severely hit in PVE and may not even be a competitive subclassing choice.

CameraBeardThePirate · April 18

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I’m seeing a lot of arguments that Storm-Calling is very viable for PvP, so it’ll get used. And Daedric Summoning will still be used by anyone running pet-sorc

Maybe, just maybe, Storm Calling still "might" be used in PVP, but look, Expert Mage forces you to cram in more Sorcerer abilities, otherwise the buff provided is very small, and this is further nerfed in U46, while Grim Focus provides more Weapon and Spell Damage, and can shoot two super high damage shots. Impale is also a better ranged executor than Mages' Wrath, as it starts executing at 25% and has a shorter delay.
While Physical might be useful for some builds, Shock Damage is very niche, so Energized isn't necessarily a passive that every build needs. In contrast, using Assassination can gain more powerful and versatile active and passive abilities.
The only abilities that Storm Calling can gain an advantage in PVP are Streak and Overload, but when the speed cap is easily reached, and because subclassing makes it easier to reach, Streak may not be able to maintain its current advantage. Overload is even worse because of well-known bug issues and the fact that other classes have more attractive ultimates.

As for pets, if the Expert Mage and Energized passives provided by Storm Calling to pets are removed, pet damage will be reduced a lot. At the same time, due to the nerf of Expert Mage, pet Sorc damage will be lower than before. Daedric Prey is no longer effective for proc pets, so Maw of the Infernal may no longer be used. Maw of the Infernal actually causes AOE damage when it breathes fire, so this will directly affect the pet sorc's AOE DPS, and even the single-target DPS may be lower than 140K (based on the pure class situation).
For pet Sorc, the only skill line that can be exchanged is Dark Magic, and this skill line also happens to be the skill line that Sorc needs the most buff, because other than Crystal and Exploitation, this skill line has no more damage abilities worth using in PVE. If I were a pet Sorc, I would prioritize swapping Dark Magic with Assassination or Dawn's Wrath.

Therefore, as others on the forum have been calling for, Dark Magic and Storm Calling need major buffs or reworks, otherwise when Arc gains over 150k single target and aoe damage through subclassing, Sorc, whether non-pet or pet sorc, will be severely hit in PVE and may not even be a competitive subclassing choice.

Why are you comparing assassination to storm calling though? You would just take both on most builds as they don't really overlap other than the execute skills.

Any of the 3 DLC classes would very easily be able to take both as one provides your buff coverage and one provides your main damage.

Storm Calling will absolutely be used in PvP, like probably one of the top three most used lines with an armor buff next to Winters Embrace and Restoring Light.

ZhuJiuyin · April 18

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Why are you comparing assassination to storm calling though? You would just take both on most builds as they don't really overlap other than the execute skills.

Any of the 3 DLC classes would very easily be able to take both as one provides your buff coverage and one provides your main damage.

Storm Calling will absolutely be used in PvP, like probably one of the top three most used lines with an armor buff next to Winters Embrace and Restoring Light.

I never said "Storm Calling won't be used in PvP", I just said it may or may not be used because subclassing opens up more options.
Moreover, when Assassination provides better executions, better weapon and spell damage data, more powerful single target, namely Grim Focus, more critic and critic damage
, what are the advantages of Storm Calling? I haven't even mentioned the speed provided by Concealed Weapon (which is almost permanently free compared to Hurricane), and the Sundered status of Surprise Attack, not to mention that they can both cause Off Balance.
In contrast, what will be left of Storm Calling's original advantages amid competition from so many subclassing lines?

RlyDontKnow · April 18

ceruulean wrote: »

Templars, sorcs, and warden DPS for PvE got gutted hard. I don't play sorc or warden dps but it's pretty obvious from the patch notes that they got nerfed. So at this point, I'm just gonna say that I don't really appreciate the nerfs to pure class skills. While necro and nightblade got buffs, they got buffed in a way where they boost other classes more than their own.

Here are the maximum dps potentials of each class in u45:

Stam Sorcerer: 144k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsmdFuhUXk
Your average HM player parses 133k

Stam necro if you can do high APM bash weaving: 139-141k (this video is u44 before rele set change)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GK69RxnGIY
Your average HM player, using a non-bash Goliath build, is going to parse 125-130k

Stam Templar 138k:
https://youtu.be/Yr5oDc44ERk?si=J2a10U67MEhsCDTl
Your average HM player parses 120-130k with this build

Mag DK 127k:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsmdFuhUXk
Average HM player parses 115-120k

Stam arc 131k:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Plv-qmOL04
Average HM player parses 115-120k

Magden 143k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3fluYDJwn0
I dont see a lot of warden parses, but I'd assume it's similar to necro's 125-130k because their rotation and sustain is tougher than sorcerer's

Stam NB 141k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHxdWuzaTD4
Same deal, probably around 120-130k because of fiddly rotation. Also they have to go Vamp Stage 2 which nerfs their sustain, and they're the only class that needs a non-class line to do competitive damage.

Some things to note: Sorc, NB, and Warden are considered single target specs. Necro, DK, and Arc have superior cleave/AoE. Templar can switch between AoE and single target, but is mostly considered single target because of the execute beam.

---

If PTS v11.0.0 goes live, the devs are nerfing sorc and warden, which aren't even overperforming because they do single-target damage. I don't understand these changes at all.

DK gets a sustain nerf which hurts them in 4 man content, whereas warden/templar got buffed in 4 man content when they're already some of the best 4 man classes.

A NB buff is justified, but it was done in a way that ended up benefiting other classes. All NB really needed was increasing the monster buff on shadow cloak to 15%, because casting a non-damage skill is a dps loss that needs to be compensated.

They are changing templar to a cleave+beam class, except it's an inferior version of a tentacle class we already have... If you nerf the Radiant Destruction execute and give jabs AoE target cap, templar's niche as a balanced/semi-support DPS is destroyed and they won't be able to compete with DK/Necro in cleave, nor with NB in execute. Their pre-execute DPS and sustain are already subpar in U45, and making templars wait until 25% boss HP to not be dead weight is pretty sad.

Arcanist AoE cap is justified, but buffing Fatecarver damage is a dumb move. They are still 2nd best AoE class behind Necro, and have better range and easier piloting than any other class. Nerfing arc sustain actually ruins casual players and PvP more than endgame dpsers, because every other arc skill is expensive and they already struggle with sustain in dungeons. Magarc has terrible sustain still.

Thank you for the great summary! I’m not sure I even agree on NB needing a buff, but if the devs want to do that, doing so by buffing cloak a bit instead seems like a good way.

I think merciless resolve can also be made more accessible without the extreme power creep from using it passively by limiting the passive power to its previous level while still accumulating more stacks (but please not enough for two procs). So if only the first 5 stacks give power and the rest are only there for the proc it will encourage people to fire it on cooldown while still being more forgiving because you don’t lose procs.

This would also limit just how much power Assassination brings passively and bring it more in line with other DPS lines.

I also wholeheartedly agree that radiant oppression change was unnecessary. Dawn’s Wrath Passive aren’t that strong, so you pick it for the skills instead. Leaving it as it was would keep it at a similar power level to Assassination (pre-update or with changes as above) or Grave Lord so we’d see some more variety in builds as well.

In my opinion this is what it should really be about. Want more stable damage? Go Assassination or Herald of the Tome. Want more execute damage because you struggle with Execute phases and trade it for some early damage? Check Dawn’s Wrath. A bit of both? Grave Lord. Are you playing in it optimised groups? Check Animal Companion (for sustain, extra buffs, crit damage, purge, … a lot of the stuff your supports usually provide). More passive damage? Check sorc pets.
And this is from a PvE DPS perspective. PvP will probably find different skill lines attractive (e.g. Shadow for Cloak, Storm Calling for streak). In my book *this is a good thing*.

Will this be bad for “I want my class to be just as good as every other class”? Yes! But this exact thinking is what got us here in the first place. Early on there were clear strength and weaknesses for every class. Some sacrificed Rande for damage. Some sacrificed AoE for more ST damage. One was an excellent tank. One was an excellent healer. We had a very strong class identity at that point.
Then people started to scream that class X does more damage than class Y (which sacrificed something for that extra damage!) and X needed a buff. And they got their buff and the sacrifices became meaningless. So class Y needed to become as effective as X without the sacrifice because now X was complaining. And the devs listened again.
And the same goes for healing and tanking. Somewhere along the way we got all kinds of changes in an attempt to listen to people who thought all classes should be worthwhile healers and tanks. And the actual healing classes got watered down in return.
So really, from my pov we got to this spot because the devs listened to players too much, not too little, and this destroyed the “class identity” everyone is trying to summon all of a sudden (while still demanding the exact same thing that destroyed it in the first place). Face it: you can’t have strong class identity and at the same time have everyone be exactly as good at everything as everyone else.

So how will this look in a Subclassing world? Some skill lines will be more relevant for optimized PvP. Some more for casual PvP. Some for optimized PvE. Some for casual PvE. Some for healing. Some for tanking. *This is good!* And I think from the builds we’re seeing already are a good indication that we’ll get there in a meaningful amount of time if some overadjustments that came with this patch are fixed.
Once you look past the “oh my god broken parses for PTS week 1!!!!” And manage to let go of “I need to keep my build exactly as it is” there’s a lot of potential to explore.
Subclassing can provide meaningful additions to a lot of *playstyles* as it is already. So I’d really encourage people to explore what this will even do to their playstyles. Once you let go of your current build there’s a lot of potential. And this is really no different from any big patch before.

For those who are dedicated to stay with exactly their class skill lines and just refuse to do any other build: feel free to. People refused to go vampire for extra power before. Or use other shenanigans that seemed stupid. You don’t have to run a meta build to run endgame content and judging from the number of PvE bananas in PvP (myself included) and one-bar HA builds in endgame PvE: the reality is that a lot of people are already running off-meta builds and they are happy with it. If you refuse to subclass when it comes out you’ll just be one of them.

Shinjie · April 18

Hi,

Ein kurzes Feedback zu den Unterklassen bzw dem PTS Update 46:

Generell finde ich die Idee der Unterklassen nicht schlecht und diese erfönnet eine Möglichkeit die es bis dato noch nie gab.
Die Aktuelle Situation ist, das man ein Skillbaum des Charakters behalten muss und bei wunsch 2 weiter austauschen kann , aber diese müssen von verschiedenen Klassen sein.

Der damit verbundene Aufwand das ganze zu balancen dürfte gewaltig bis unmöglich sein bzw finde ich manche Entscheidungen seltsam bzw schwierig:

z.b von der Basis Klasse DK ausgegangen

- 1 Skillbaum DK + 1 Skillbaum Arcanist + 1 Skillbaum Nachtklinge ( ist möglich )
- aber 1 Skillbaum DK + 2 Skillbäume Arcanist ( ist nicht möglich )

So gestaltet es sich z.b in meinem Fall als schwierig das Ziel von einem Main Charakter nachzugehen der z.b mit einem Setup 3 Skillbäume vom DK spielen möchte und in einer anderen Situation 2 Skillbäume vom Arcanisten + den einen Skillbaum der Basisklasse.
Das heißt:
- 3 Skilläume DK und in einem anderen Setup 1 Skillbaum DK + 2 Skillbäume Arcanist mit einem Charakter ist unmöglich
- Das heißt ich müsste Charakter 1 Dk auswählen und einen zweiten Charakter Arcanist, wo das Ziel des einen Main Charakters wieder unmöglich umzusetzen ist

Daher wäre es wahrscheinlich sinvoller gewesen , wie von der comm gewünscht , die Klassen als ganzes wechseln zu können.
z.b bei dem NPC im Spiel von DK zu Arcanist oder zum Templer wechseln zu können mit den fixen Skillbäumen ( das würde das Chaos wahrscheinlich auch beseitigen und die Klassen würden in sich geschlossen bleiben)
Ansonsten wäre es zumindest sehr wünschenswert wenn man wenn man 2 Skillbäume einer anderen Klasse nehmen könnte.
Denn z.b 1 Arcanist + 1 Necro + 1 Nightblade wäre sicher besser im DPS , aber um ehrlich zu sein bei manchen Klassen fehlt einer der Basis Skillbäume damit es sich " rund anfühlt "

Ansonsten könnte man noch als Möglichkeit in betracht ziehen das man nur die Skillbäume mit einer anderen Klasse gleichzeitig mischen kann , welches dann auch eventuell etwas Chaos beseitiegen könnte und vielleicht dazu als Beschränkung das nur der Tank Skillbaum gegen einen Tank Skillbaum getauscht werden kann oder Heal <---> Heal etc.

In English:

A short feedback on the subclasses and the PTS Update 46:

In general, I think the idea of subclasses is not bad and it offers a possibility that has never existed before.
The current situation is that you have to keep one skill tree of the character and can exchange 2 more if you want, but they have to be from different classes.

The effort involved in balancing the whole thing should be enormous to impossible or I find some decisions strange or difficult:

e.g. starting from the base class DK

- 1 skill tree DK + 1 skill tree Arcanist + 1 skill tree Nightblade ( is possible )
- but 1 skill tree DK + 2 skill trees Arcanist ( is not possible )

So it turns out e.g. in my case as difficult to achieve the goal. b in my case it is difficult to pursue the goal of a main character who wants to play e.g. with a setup 3 skill trees of the DK and in another situation 2 skill trees of the Arcanist + the one skill tree of the base class.
That means:
- 3 skill trees DK and in another setup 1 skill tree DK + 2 skill trees Arcanist with one character is impossible
- That means I would have to choose character 1 Dk and a second character Arcanist, where the goal of the one main character is again impossible to realize

Therefore, it would probably have made more sense to be able to change classes as a whole, as requested by the comm.
e.g. to be able to switch from DK to Arcanist or Templar with the fixed skill trees at the NPC in the game (this would probably also eliminate the chaos and the classes would remain self-contained)
Otherwise, it would at least be very desirable if you could take 2 skill trees of another class.
Because e.g. 1 Arcanist + 1 Necro + 1 Nightblade would certainly be better in DPS, but to be honest with some classes one of the base skill trees is missing so that it " feels round "

Otherwise you could also consider the possibility that you can only mix the skill trees with another class at the same time, which could then possibly eliminate some chaos and maybe as a restriction that only the tank skill tree can be exchanged for a tank skill tree or Heal <---> Heal etc..

ForumBully · April 18

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I’m seeing a lot of arguments that Storm-Calling is very viable for PvP, so it’ll get used. And Daedric Summoning will still be used by anyone running pet-sorc

Maybe, just maybe, Storm Calling still "might" be used in PVP, but look, Expert Mage forces you to cram in more Sorcerer abilities, otherwise the buff provided is very small, and this is further nerfed in U46, while Grim Focus provides more Weapon and Spell Damage, and can shoot two super high damage shots. Impale is also a better ranged executor than Mages' Wrath, as it starts executing at 25% and has a shorter delay.
While Physical might be useful for some builds, Shock Damage is very niche, so Energized isn't necessarily a passive that every build needs. In contrast, using Assassination can gain more powerful and versatile active and passive abilities.
The only abilities that Storm Calling can gain an advantage in PVP are Streak and Overload, but when the speed cap is easily reached, and because subclassing makes it easier to reach, Streak may not be able to maintain its current advantage. Overload is even worse because of well-known bug issues and the fact that other classes have more attractive ultimates.

As for pets, if the Expert Mage and Energized passives provided by Storm Calling to pets are removed, pet damage will be reduced a lot. At the same time, due to the nerf of Expert Mage, pet Sorc damage will be lower than before. Daedric Prey is no longer effective for proc pets, so Maw of the Infernal may no longer be used. Maw of the Infernal actually causes AOE damage when it breathes fire, so this will directly affect the pet sorc's AOE DPS, and even the single-target DPS may be lower than 140K (based on the pure class situation).
For pet Sorc, the only skill line that can be exchanged is Dark Magic, and this skill line also happens to be the skill line that Sorc needs the most buff, because other than Crystal and Exploitation, this skill line has no more damage abilities worth using in PVE. If I were a pet Sorc, I would prioritize swapping Dark Magic with Assassination or Dawn's Wrath.

Therefore, as others on the forum have been calling for, Dark Magic and Storm Calling need major buffs or reworks, otherwise when Arc gains over 150k single target and aoe damage through subclassing, Sorc, whether non-pet or pet sorc, will be severely hit in PVE and may not even be a competitive subclassing choice.

Expert Mage is definitely less valuable on a subclassed setup, possiblity just a wasted passive. But, it's is one of those passives that rewards the "pure", which seems to be what some are clamouring about.
I don't know or care about PvE, but I don't think run away quick will ever be on equal footing to streak away in PvP and I think there will be many attempts at Stamsorc-esque mobility and power utilizing Hurricane and Streak on Subclassed characters and they'll all have Assassination for Grim Focus, that whole line stands alone above all the rest.

I don't think we'll get the passive/skill overhaul we want or need this update, but I think we need one soon.

ZhuJiuyin · April 18

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't think we'll get the passive/skill overhaul we want or need this update, but I think we need one soon.

This is also what most people are worried about and have been emphasizing. If balance, or at least relative balance, cannot be achieved before the June update, how many classes will become vassals or die completely, and how many players will be lost due to the out-of-control subclassing system?

ForumBully · April 18

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I don't think we'll get the passive/skill overhaul we want or need this update, but I think we need one soon.

This is also what most people are worried about and have been emphasizing. If balance, or at least relative balance, cannot be achieved before the June update, how many classes will become vassals or die completely, and how many players will be lost due to the out-of-control subclassing system?

That's not a new worry though. Many updates have left a whole class or a few in a lurch and each time it happens "the end is near". Maybe in PvE, at high level "no one is going to play X" means literally no one, but outside of that small bubble many still will. I used to run into players all the time in Cyrodiil and be absolutely mystified by what they were doing...just pointless builds that couldn't kill or survive. Those people are the majority and the game will thrive without the small percentage of players who quit because the state of the game doesn't agree with them. I'm one of those players, and PvP went on just fine without me, so saying the game will suffer is really just saying I might not play it.

There's a lot of skill line balancing that needs to happen...I don't like how Sorc skill lines and passives look in this environment but I like Necromancer even less. I honestly can't think of a single skill line I want from Necromancer on a PvP build outside of maybe a troll tank.

I hope this change is step one of a larger overhaul that already in the works.

master_vanargand · April 18

ForumBully wrote: »

I'm one of those players, and PvP went on just fine without me, so saying the game will suffer is really just saying I might not play it.

PvP is riddled with problems.
Unkillable Ballgroups, heal stacking, op sets, bugs, etc.
Ballsroups use a DDoS-like bug to force quit enemy players who are not using asynchronous tools in Cyrodiil.

Fantalior · April 18

The nerf to the Templar beam is outrageous.

Why is a class's best ability being destroyed just because others now have access to it? I'm referring primarily to the fact that this ability cannot be dodged. This aspect should be retained, especially in PvP. Perhaps at least with a morph that then receives the short cast time and the inescapability for it. I think something can be done with the buffs and damage values, perhaps just 300% or 250% more damage...
Use the morphs, one for PvP, one for PvE.

ForumBully · April 18

master_vanargand wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I'm one of those players, and PvP went on just fine without me, so saying the game will suffer is really just saying I might not play it.

PvP is riddled with problems.
Unkillable Ballgroups, heal stacking, op sets, bugs, etc.
Ballsroups use a DDoS-like bug to force quit enemy players who are not using asynchronous tools in Cyrodiil.

Yeah, and it was when I left. Doesn't mean it ended.

Orbital78 · April 18

Please don't do Sorcerer dirty like this, how about making their lightning splash like Templars shards? I am not thrilled about the rearranging of the skill lines, reconsider.

SilverBride · April 18

To say I am extremely upset about the no pet Sorcerer changes would be a complete understatement. My oldest character that I've had since just after launch is a no pet Sorcerer and I should not have to change her identity, which is a huge part of who she is, for a new feature that I don't even want. And I won't.

Subclassing should be an option for players, not a requirement. This change is forcing Sorcerers to either subclass or use a pet. What about those of us that don't want to do either?

No pet Sorcerers have been a viable option for 11 years now. Subclassing hasn't even gone live yet, so if it is causing a potential problem with Sorcerers then it is what should be adjusted rather than the established class.

Yudo · April 18

Agree with Subclassing should be an option for players, not a requirement in relation to non-pet sorcerers being told to chance subclass if they do not wish to run pets. Passives should be made so that this is still optional as before.

Pixiepumpkin · April 18

The sorc nerfs are essentially ZOS asking for my wife and I to please quit the game (she literally played a number of sorcs. PVP healer sorc, PVE healer sorc, PVP dps sorc, PVE dps sorc, etc. She is not happy at all with your intended changes.

If pure classes have to be changed/nerfed to accomodate subclassing, then why subclass?!?!?!? We all know its infinitely cheaper for ZOS to "move around" aspects of the game already developed vs making a new class, or skill line, but subclassing is not the way. Please respect that we as players, as customers are not ignorant.

ForumBully · April 18

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

The sorc nerfs are essentially ZOS asking for my wife and I to please quit the game (she literally played a number of sorcs. PVP healer sorc, PVE healer sorc, PVP dps sorc, PVE dps sorc, etc. She is not happy at all with your intended changes.

If pure classes have to be changed/nerfed to accomodate subclassing, then why subclass?!?!?!? We all know its infinitely cheaper for ZOS to "move around" aspects of the game already developed vs making a new class, or skill line, but subclassing is not the way. Please respect that we as players, as customers are not ignorant.

Don't be silly, they never said please, they just said get out.

tomofhyrule · April 18

As a DK main, I can accept the change to Magma. I always keep it in my pocket as an emergency button, but it’s totally being exploited in the Archive and a permanent-magma build should not be possible.

However, the gutting of the Battle Roar and Combustion passives for sustain really hurts. I already have to almost constantly heavy attack when I’m solo, and this will essentially force solo-DK into a heavy attack only build.

Similar to what’s going on with Sorcerer, I do not think that Class lines should be neutered on the chance someone subclasses with them. Rather Subclassing should bring the nerfs that fix that power delta without making a pure-DK or pure-Sorc a completely non-viable RP-only setup.

Dino-Jr · April 18

The changes to sorc's Daedric Summoning Tree feel pretty bad.

I have run a Stamina Dual Dagger + Bow Sorc build for awhile that uses Haunting Curse and Bound Armanents without any pets. Would be preferrable to be able to continue doing that. Feels like some stuff got kinda swept up in these changes unintentionally.

Something like this will probably continue to function after the patch:

Just a really rough look not having access to this at all...

I wonder if they could introduce a line that grants a version of the passives to Sorc's Class (not other classes) if they dont have a pet?

Definitely possible to replace Summoning with Assassination to get to a similar build but the abilities involved play, feel, and look pretty different. Losing something here that was cool about the sorc in doing this.

Pinja · April 18

The new Grim focus seems overloaded. A Grim focus proc for most Pvp dps builds is a death sentence that must be roll dodged or blocked every few seconds. Being able to fire it back to back reengages a two shot combo that'd be too easy to set up (Stealth > Grim focus >Incap.) I've had over 32k health and still have been killed by this crit combo.

old_scopie1945 · April 18

I 100% agree, Pure class builds must not be used as the sacrificial lamb to the sacred Subclass system. Many of us have characters with pure builds which we have cherished for years. We don't know where this train ride will take us, but I feel that we traditionalists suspect the train will be derailed.

I have two non pet Sorcerer builds which has set alarm bells off for me. I feel sure other nerfed skills have equally worried others in our community. Personally I feel no joy for where this game is going without a rethink on the future of pure class skill builds.

Deimus · April 18

If you guys are limiting the amount of corpses and pets to a combined total of 5 in PvP then you need to alter how Bitter Harvest, Reanimate Blastbones, and Enduring Undeath works. If you don't you are punishing players who want to play more into the Necromancer kit as they won't be able to keep their minions up while getting adequate utility from corpse consumers.

Skeletal Mage is your Major Brutality and Sorcery, Blastbones is your damage, and Mender is your unique mitigation. All 3 should be constantly up leaving room for only 2 corpses. In PvP this means you'll have to swap to your backbar to cast Deaden Pain every 7 seconds this won't allow for time to line up your burst and bring back the feeling of being a buff simulator that we just got rid of.

Unless there is a dead player in the area Animate Blastbones will onlly get those 3 corpses if you forgo one of your buffs or damage which if you're playing into that build you want a Blighted Blastbones ready to launch with the 3 from the ult. That also raises the question of will those 3 Blastbones count as pets and override another minion or just only raise 1 or 2 just to not put you over the cap of 5 pets since Blighted Blastbones x4+ Skeletal Minion + Spirit Mender = 6 pets. The same situation for Enduring Undeath you will NEVER have 5 corpses without dead players in the area now. As mentioned by other Necromancer players the class script loses a lot of value from this change as well.

Necromancers aren't prevalent in PvP enough to cause noticeable performance drops in fact every time I see another Necromancer player with decent alliance level it's a bunny hopping celebration! We duel and usually bond over how cool it is to see another Necromancer player then trade tips and tricks we've picked up to find success on the class. I've never had that experience on any other class in ESO. If you want to cap something to improve PvP performance I'll suggest for the millionth time to limit heal/shield stacking, but since we're here these are my suggestion to keep the cap while not further penalizing the few Necromancer players in PvP.

Bitter Harvest/Deaden Pain

This skill should max out at 2 corpses consumed. If we keep the current values for Deaden Pain this would mean each corpse will trigger the HoT and Major Protection for 12 seconds while granting 6 ultimate. Due to the imposed limitations the value of each corpse rises drastically so the power they grant should as well.

Animate Blastbones

Summons a Blighted Blastbones with 1 corpse, at 2 corpses summons an Enhanced Blastbones that deals 3x the damage of a normal Blastbones, and at 3 corpses summons a Detonating Bone Colossus that deals 5x the damage of a Blastbones. The goal is to limit the summon to a single pet while maintaining the strength. With the power creep in this patch and the high ultimate cost an extra oomf from 3 corpses to those who want to play into the feeling of a Necromancer wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. It's also to make up for losing the amazing feeling of having a mini minion army that Animate Blastbones gave us, but keeping the 3 Blighted Blastbones isn't a realistic option anymore.

Enduring Undeath

Same as Bitter Harvest/Deaden Pain consumes a max of 2 corpses and the HoT duration per corpse consumed is increased by 12.5 seconds.

Necromancer Class Mastery

An extra 20% on all your resources is a HUGE boon, and even with the power creep having it max out at 5 corpses is too strong. It's already hard to hit the 20% cap, but with this change it will become increasingly rare. I suggest for the first 3 corpses it increases your stats by 3% instead of 2%, for the next 4 it increases your stats by 2% like normal, and for the last 3 it increases your stats by 1%. This will front load some of the benefit and make it more worthwhile in an environment when the player can't make more than 2-3 corpses while allowing them to maintain the same benefit in larger scale fights with more player or npc corpses to utilize.

@ZOS_Kevin Without changes similar to these Necromancer players in PvP will rarely get full functionality from casting these skills. The limitations placed on the player in the name of game performance and not combat balance means these skills are unjustly getting a heavy nerf so increasing the duration/power per corpse consumed to compensate for the loss of effectiveness players will experience otherwise is a fair compromise.

Alaztor91 · April 18

Any plans to implement the ''While slotted on either bar'' functionality to more skills? Mostly referring to duration buffs like Shocking Siphon's Major Savagery/Prophecy, Biting Jabs Major Brutality/Sorcery, etc. You did it to a few skills like Cloak and Inferno but then you apparently forgot.

Also, what about the ''Cost Determined by Highest/Lowest Max Resource'' functionality that some Arcanist skills have? You started with the Hybridization changes years ago, and this functionality hasn't been applied to a single non- Arcanist skill afaik.

Wereswan · April 18

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Any plans to implement the ''While slotted on either bar'' functionality to more skills? Mostly referring to duration buffs like Shocking Siphon's Major Savagery/Prophecy, Biting Jabs Major Brutality/Sorcery, etc. You did it to a few skills like Cloak and Inferno but then you apparently forgot.

Also, what about the ''Cost Determined by Highest/Lowest Max Resource'' functionality that some Arcanist skills have? You started with the Hybridization changes years ago, and this functionality hasn't been applied to a single non- Arcanist skill afaik.

Please yes. This would make my non-Arcanist stamina builds a much less painful experience

mctaff · April 19

The sorc changes are total butt.

Skinnkycheeks has commented on his videos and I hope ZoS is watching that video - but to push the Daedric Summoning so hard into pets is a huge mistake.
It does raise a few issues with the current system of 'pets and summons', and there is a solution that allows for more targeted addressing of power and also thematically putting them into baskets, and allows more control over what interacts with what.

One good first step would be to categorise pets by origin first and work off that interaction and only secondly by permanency and by creator (player skill, environment, set proc, etc)

Daedric pets would cover:

Any pet from the Daedric Summoning skill line,
Atronachs of any type under the player's purview,
Daedroths (from Maw of Infernal - the ubiquitous "Jeff")
Shadowrend (from Shadowrend set),
Scamps (from Baron Thirsk set)
Hunger (from Scavenging Demise and Defiler sets)
Aegis (from Aegis Caller set)
Thunderfist (from Stormfist set)

Undead pets would cover:

Any corpses on the ground owned/created by the player
Any corpses of other players
Any summoned entities from the Necromancer skill lines

Animal pets would cover:

Any summoned creatures from the Warden skill lines
Any summoned wolves from the Werewolf skill lines
Duneripper (from the Tremorscale monster set)
Halodid Husks (from the Euphoric Gatekeeper monster set)
Honor (from Coldharbour's Favorite set)
Strangler Sapling from (Chokethorn monster set)

Automata pets would cover:

Dwarven Spheres (from Engine Guardian set)
Dwarven Spiders (from Sentinel of Rkugamz set)
Venomous Fabricant (from Mad Tinkerer set)
Turrets from Bow ultimate

Companions and People:

Companions (of course)
Quest triggered helper companions

Up for debate:

Primal Spirit (from Selene's monster set)
Animated weapon (from Morkuldin set)
Shade from Nightblade skill line

These can be argued in different ways, but otherwise can be fit into more than one category.

Note these lists aren't exhaustive, I may have missed some.

Benefits

Making set procs, in particular some of the monster sets can actually bring some of these back from being far eclipsed.
The passives that interact with these could be buffed to include some better interactions. i.e. Chokethorn is vastly underpowered and giving it a rework (allowing multiple targets, such as those touching the beam) along with making it interact with Warden passives (by buffing pet healing) might make it have new use cases, even if niche. Same thing with Tremorscale.
Introducing Automata as a category opens up further development in later Seasons.
Cross-classing would clearly still have a hard barrier to 'stacking' pets when an coded variable checks to see what kind of pet they are. For example, your Summoned Shade from the nightblade line you brought in won't count towards your Sorc passives as that shade is not a Daedra.
It allows some expansion to cover things that aren't quite pets now. For example, Sorcs could later be buffed by allowing Bound Armaments to count as pets as they are 'technically summoned'. Similarly the Lich Crystals from Nerien'eth, and totems from Nightflame (could help Necromancers), and tentacles from Orpheon the Tactician (another targeted Sorcerer option). These allow small scale changes to be made and bring underperforming monster sets up to have more use cases.
It allows more variable 5 piece and monster sets to be introduced later, and targeted for specific classes or build types to implement for the best return, whilst still allowing others to use them.

I hope this provides some clear direction. It allows 'pets and summons' to be a wider scope, and hopefully also provides some 'lanes' for them to sit in and stops the broad-strokes brakes over pets and allows them to be finely tuned across more cases.