PTS Update 46 - Feedback Thread for Subclassing

Alchimiste1 · April 16

This subclassing might be one of the worst ideas ever.
High chance of killing the game imo.

kind_hero · April 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of people feared Subclassing would be like Hybridization - a system which is designed to give more flexibility, but in reality coerced people into running a specific setup unless they actively chose to nerf themselves.

Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

The best way to do something like that would be to nerf all tooltips by some percentage if a character takes up a subclass. In that way, the player needs to choose between keeping the raw power of a single class, or reducing their power in exchange for more versatility.

As it is, the players can choose 'nothing changes' versus 'more power and more versatility,' which is not a reasonable choice. Even when subclassing in games like D&D, adding more subclasses is a way to give characters more options, but you do so at the expense of accessing the most powerful features of your original class.

This sums it up better than I have said it...

What's the benefit of playing a pure class, why continue doing that? Besides RP, you should have more power than a hybrid class, otherwise what is the point? Why have scribing too?

You have already nerfed lots of abilities, and cut from the fun they had, like ability x can only affect y targets, or z% less damage/more resources etc.

Each class felt powerful in its own way, because with time, you unlocked 1-2 class abilities that were unique and strong. Now, it is all a mess. People playing a purre class will feel like fools.

Listen to the feedback on this one, because there will be no coming back from this.

SaintJohnHM · April 16

kind_hero wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of people feared Subclassing would be like Hybridization - a system which is designed to give more flexibility, but in reality coerced people into running a specific setup unless they actively chose to nerf themselves.

Pure classes should not be underpowered compared to hybrids. If anything, the pure classes should have more raw power than hybrid classes.

The best way to do something like that would be to nerf all tooltips by some percentage if a character takes up a subclass. In that way, the player needs to choose between keeping the raw power of a single class, or reducing their power in exchange for more versatility.

As it is, the players can choose 'nothing changes' versus 'more power and more versatility,' which is not a reasonable choice. Even when subclassing in games like D&D, adding more subclasses is a way to give characters more options, but you do so at the expense of accessing the most powerful features of your original class.

This sums it up better than I have said it...

What's the benefit of playing a pure class, why continue doing that? Besides RP, you should have more power than a hybrid class, otherwise what is the point? Why have scribing too?

You have already nerfed lots of abilities, and cut from the fun they had, like ability x can only affect y targets, or z% less damage/more resources etc.

Each class felt powerful in its own way, because with time, you unlocked 1-2 class abilities that were unique and strong. Now, it is all a mess. People playing a purre class will feel like fools.

Listen to the feedback on this one, because there will be no coming back from this.

Agreed. The subclassers should have the nerfed skill lines, leave the original classes intact.

lPeacekeeperl · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
I'm pretty experienced player so I figured it out on the go
Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
No, all clear. Could be better though, like button "swap this to another" but good enough as it is
How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
did not tried it yet(presets used)
Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
yes absolutely, this is the sole reason to, not only come back to game for me, but also to bting my friend who dropped years ago (all ESO+ ex subscribers so we will gladly pay for this changes wink-wink)
Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
Oh YES! most fun I had on PTS in years!

Also couple quick notes here:
Please consider more locking of passives to corresponding classes, this could help with balancing. For obvious example: necro "Rapid rot" should be "+15% to necromancer dot dmg" or "+25%" since this will affect dots from weapons. Thats effectively the same as with sorc "curse"

Nebbles · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
Yes

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
No, was fine

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
Templates

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
No

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
No. This cannot be released as it. It will fundamentally break balancing and will create stress and annoyance for everyone involved. You really need to take a step back and drastically change somethings such as separating the skills when subclassed (and please, its multi-class, not even the name is correct)

Seriously, do not release it in its current state.

MerguezMan · April 16

I see a lot of complains about multiclassing and class balance...
May I suggest something wild ?

When subclassing,
- create a 4th skill line for each class (including your native class), move ALL class passives and ultimates into it
(and maybe 3 non-damage dealing active skills that can generate/consume specific ressources like corpses or crux).
- you can swap 2 skill trees from other classes, leaving 1 native tree for trade.
- you can pick trees of active skills only, and/or trees of passives and ultimates only.
- for a "borrowed" passive/ulti skill tree, 1 class ulti has to be slotted on the current bar for the passive skills to apply.
- your "native" passive/ulti tree always apply as now (and for class identity's sake, you cannot trade it).

That way,
- only 2 sets of ulti/passive trees can apply at the same time (never 3), at the "cost" of a slotted Ultimate skill and you "loose" 1 native traded tree with its active skills.
- you may pick 2 different sets of borrowed ulti/passive trees, 1 on each bar, but you loose 2 native traded trees, and are forced into slotted ultimates.
- you may pick 2 active skill trees from other classes, but you will only benefit your native class passive skills.
- you may pick 1 active and 1 passive tree from the same class to have a fully functioning hybrid of 2 classes only.

Alternatively,
- you can only pick a passive tree if you have picked an active one from the same non-native class.

[Edit - confusing wording here and there]

umagon · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
Yes.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
No.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
It was fast with the exp scroll, I just made a template once it was around 26 to unlock the rest of the skill line on my copied character.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
Absolutely.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
Yes. My tankblade is now a Winter Shadow Bone Tyrant and it is great. My character is now even more absurdly tanky. Thank you for this. I was able to solo Tidespite.

DrSlaughtr · April 16

The problem with this is that it ISN'T SUB-CLASSING. It is Multi-Classing. There is an massive difference.

You are letting people cherry pick skill lines to create cheeseball builds. You SHOULD have done actual subclassing. Introduce for each class 2 new skill lines that you could either use as as 4th skill line or to swap out one of your base 3. All of this nonsense could have been avoided.

Instead you're going to let me have dragon leap on a night blade and ball groups all have cloak or all have negates. It's just silly.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

I want to raise the issue of sorcerer being unable to benefit from subclassing to the extent the other classes can. Not so in pve as in pvp where the best option is likely to not subclass at all. This is due to the fact that sorcerer's skill trees aren't dedicated to any particular function, so healing/damage/survivability skills are all spread and mixed. Even other base game classes have some sort of differentiation. That is why sorcerer can't replace a skill tree without not only sacrificing some essential class skill but also ruining the very core of the build. For instance if one would want to slot a healing skill tree they would inevitably sacrifice a core damage skill and vice versa. Once again, because sorcerer's trees aren't dedicated to any role while those of other classes are. Thus by attempting to change any of build's aspects (say healing/survivability/damage) sorcerer inevitably takes a hit too big to be worth the trouble. And considering all this the class will likely fall behind due to the fact that other classes have received heavy buffs (which is subclassing) while sorc not only is excluded but has received big nerfs as well.

Some changes and moving would be welcome, something similar has been made only recently for nightblade's shadow and assassination skill trees

And yes, I have been testing extensively during these two days. Although there’s honestly no need for testing to state the obvious.

carly · April 16

Did the sublclassing quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
*Yes it was easy to follow and understand.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
*No

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
*I've only spent an hour questing so far but so far it seems to go fairly quickly. I went from 0 to 18 in a little less than an hour.

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
*Absolutely.

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
*Even though I just started experimenting with this, I wanted to provide some positive feedback. The character I chose was one of my sorcerer alts - I do have a main Alt but she has some vet dungeon gear and an Oakensoul ring so I wanted to try it on a normal character with Julianos & Necropotence armor, as that would be more consistent to what a newer player might have.

I swapped out Storm Calling for the Animal Companions skill line. As I said, I've only played an hour but since this alt is fairly recent, I've spent the past few weeks levelling her and I found doing the quests today that I wasn't vastly overpowered. I had my clanfear up and then once I got the bear for the palace fight, I brought him out and I didn't find the battle too easy or too hard - somewhere in the middle. Of course my new skill line is only at 18 and I will report back once I've levelled her up more.

I think newer players will love having the option to pick and choose which skill lines they want to focus in on.

Zyaneth_Bal · April 16

I say classes in my previous post although classes have effectively been deleted. Because it’s simply inefficient to miss out on other classes’ particularly loaded skill trees and skills like assassination, restoring light, animal companions among most notable for pvp builds.

I am very concerned about how subclassing will obliterate any balance we may have. Because separate classes have been worked on for years and subclassing isn’t balanced nor will it be in the nearest future if ever. It will probably lead to particular skills being nerfed with the fact in mind that they will be used alongside other classes’ loaded skills with no regard to the original class which will likely lead to original classes already fallen behind to become non competitive.

It’s honestly quite surprising and in my opinion uncalled for to say the least to see class identity being rid of in a single update after years of attempts to incentivize it.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 16

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Instead you're going to let me have dragon leap on a night blade and ball groups all have cloak or all have negates. It's just silly.

ball groups all have cloak
Sweet Jesus, invisible ball groups... I just realised that. They could all maintain 100% uptime & be perma invisible with ease... Just no... no....

Xarc · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?
yes
Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?
only the npc system to get the subclassing, it's weird
How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?
didnt try, i used premade cp3600 char
Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?
yes
Did you have fun experimenting with the system?
I will quote my mates below to explain what I think

kind_hero wrote: »

What you are doing is very risky. Because subclassing, while fun, to me really feels like cheating. Like after doing everything in Skyrim, you install some Star Wars light saber/ force mod for a second playthrough.

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

anyone who wants to play a vanilla class gets completely left behind.

gc0018 wrote: »

I get boring so quick; it is not as fun as play a different class alt.

I will conclude by making a suggestion :
Spice things up:
Playing a "pure" class with three original trees shouldn't be unbalancing. Adding trees from different classes should "cost" something in exchange for the additional power. For example, reduce regen by 20-25% for each tree replaced, OR significantly increase the cost of each skill in these added trees.
Otherwise, frankly, seeing DPS at 200k and players even more immortal than they already were in PvP, I don't see where the fun will be.

thepandalore · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

Yes and no. The concept is obvious, but the introduction might need some work. Paragraph 1 of the first Subclassing Popup woule benefit from linking or mentioning the achievement category that tracks subclass skill line mastery.
Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?

I may have encountered a number of bugs. All of my subclasses were mastered on first login from every class except for those from the class of the new template character I created. This led me to incorrectly believe that subclass levels are shared with characters of that class. I was sometimes unable to equip subclasses for the reason of not having enough skill points despite actually having more than 450 of them. Additionally, there should be an "E" to "Equip this skill line" and an "Alt" to "back up" option next to "R" to Confirm while previewing a skill line. As it is, it's easy to mistakenly finalize skill line equips and thus be forced to exit before you're actually done. I also encountered an error in which, after exiting the subclass NPC's menu, I was unable to view any of my skill trees until i did a /reloadui.
How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

Long enough that I'm not looking forward to doing this in the live server. Please reconsider tying subclass mastery to leveling characters of that class.
Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

In all likelihood, yes. The added per-character utility from subclassing is too valuable to seriously consider using a 'pure' class in dungeon trifecta/perfecta runs.
Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Loads of fun. MIxing and matching class passives adds a new dimension to theorycrafting.

The biggest negative perception I have to relay about subclassing is that some of us feel like key aspects of the game are rapidly losing their identity to novelty churn. We've been hoping for some class identity re-definition after the hybridization update kinda smushed individual class magicka & class stamina identities into a mostly singular "stamicka" build across the board. The introduction of Subclasses feels like a further dilution, and this is mostly related to overall parity in kit utility. Instead of putting some time and effort into the class kits to bring them all to roughly the same level of buff/debuff, damage, tanking, and healing utility, now just have the quick & dirty fix of simply importing useful things from outside sources. This is instead of making improvements on what wasn't aging well 10 patches ago. As an example, some class ults bring little enough damage and utility that we wouldn't really slot them as active abilities if it were an option. At the same time, some active abilities still function as though the hybridization update never happened, favoring one resource or another instead of the higher resource pool, and most classes bring unique debuffs while some still don't. From the perspective of many of us who find this system more bitter than sweet, the way to fix the problems we still see was not to import balance-breaking skill line combos from other classes, but to lean into class identity and bring all the classes as close to parity as possible. Fun as it is, it feels kinda bad, like we're definitely losing something that made ESO special.

Elvenheart · April 16

Did the sublcassling quest teach you everything you had to learn for using this system?

As a long time player, it was pretty intuitive for me.

Is there anything confusing about the UI or the methods to engage with Subclassing?

I think it could be a bit confusing for a brand new player, but most people that are familiar with MMO‘s in general should be able to figure it out.

How long did it take you to level up a subclassed skill line?

I have just tried it for a couple of hours so far but the skills leveled faster than I expected, a good thing!

Do you plan to use this feature when it goes live?

Definitely! Every day I’m thinking of new things to try!

Did you have fun experimenting with the system?

Yes, so far, can’t wait to try more things. In Live I plan to immediately start collecting more skyshards on characters I want to try things first with to be more ready.

Miscellaneous feedback

I’m in agreement with those that think the system should’ve been called Multi-classing or Multiclassing instead of Subclassing, Multi- classing just makes more sense. Maybe there are a reasons you can’t use the word Multi-classing or didn’t want to, which is a shame since Multi-classing is just more accurate IMO. I guess an argument could be made that once you pick a main class, you can never switch from that class and always have to keep at least one skill on from that class, maybe that’s why? But even with that Multi-classing just seems to be a better word. Maybe it’s something along the lines of the endless archive had to be changed to the infinite archive? Oh, well.

Also, I really really hope that scribing doesn’t just fall by the wayside. I was really looking forward to scribing for class skill lines, and in a perfect world this would be introduced in Winterhold!

Keystroke · April 16

They should add a passive like how undaunted works to ensure keeping your original class skill lines is meaningful and not underpowered compared to subclassing.

Hero’s focus: Increases your damage done, healing done, and reduces your damage taken, by 5% for each primary class skill line you retain beyond the first.

That way remaining pure class doesn’t fall victim to being underpowered compared to subclassing. And gives a little room to nerf some of the OP stuff when used with subclassing.

Raz415 · April 16

This is not subclassing. You are adding multiclassing to the game.

I don't like it. There is no reason for me to play anything but necro + nightblade on my arcanist. I don't like the new gameplay, I prefer the old beam builds.

I would have much prefered actual subclasses, where you can further specialize on your role (healer, tank or damage dealer) within the class you are playing. To double down on the class fantasy.

This is taking away from the class fantasy. It's a bit of fun trying out new builds now, but give it a month and the meta will be plain as hell. Some skills and passives just work too well together. As it is now, I cannot see any reason to play a pure class anymore.

You should add real subclasses that can compete with multiclassing balance-wise! The choice should be between subclass and multiclass, not multiclass or nothing.

Ragnarok0130 · April 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Another related topic: the difference between a drawback and an opportunity cost.

A good system that makes people choose what to run will have benefits and drawbacks. “If you choose to take X, you will get benefit Y in exchange for drawback Z.” In that case, players will need to decide if Y is worth Z.

The new subclassing system seems to have an awkward version of that, where the drawback is “you lose one of your parent lines,” which for some classes is a much larger choice than others. The DLC classes in particular are strictly regimented into tank/heal/damage lines, so it’s extremely easy for an Arcanist DPS to say “I’m going to give up these lines that I don’t use anyway and in return I get a lot more power!”

The other thing that we have is an opportunity cost. That is not a drawback. Sure, it’ll take time to farm more skyshards to get the skill points (or less charitably, to buy them) and then grind master writs to level everything up… but what then? Once you have those chores done, then there’s no longer a decision of whether it's worth it or not. It’s like if they released the Oakensoul ring and said “instead of locking you to one bar, the drawback to using it is that you have to dig up the leads first.” Ok, but once you did that, you get all the power and no weakness.

I don’t think the ‘double skill point’ cost is necessary. It’s just a barrier to entry, but it will not affect the decision making for players who already have the skill points. And Subclassing needs to be given an actual drawback so it becomes something with a choice and not just “oh, just trade your unused trash lines for other lines that give only benefits!”

100% agree on the double skill point. That’s just annoying and the cost should be the normal 1 skill point. If we replace a line do we got the spent skill points from our original class lines that were replaced back? That is something we need to know since I’ve not been on the PTS.

gorynych_88 · April 16

Xarc wrote: »

I will conclude by making a suggestion :
Spice things up:
Playing a "pure" class with three original trees shouldn't be unbalancing. Adding trees from different classes should "cost" something in exchange for the additional power. For example, reduce regen by 20-25% for each tree replaced, OR significantly increase the cost of each skill in these added trees.
Otherwise, frankly, seeing DPS at 200k and players even more immortal than they already were in PvP, I don't see where the fun will be.

Me and my friends are completely agreed with this opinion. As not-so-long-ago returned player I see that nowadays game balance is enough far from its best state (PvP for bright example) and this experiment in exact format will break all the gameplay to the end. Those already started nerfes at PTS to class abilities mean it will noticeable weaken "pure classes" and people that don't want to play hybrids, because of diffirent reasons, will be out of the board and should leave game. If it will be applied on live even close to nowadays state (or even in worse with all the skill lines nerfes) - it will be the worst idea I ever saw in class-based MMORPG history to be honest. Especially for the game that was never designed for multiclassing, not like Rift (R.I.P.) for example (and even there multiclassing was limited more and more with new versions for the sake of game balance). This all could succeed in the place like custom private WoW server or smthng like that but not in TESO...

If gamedesigners anyways want to make the whole game a pure Sheogorath's Plane in the worst meaning, PLEASE at least don't touch "pure" classes' mechanics! Stop that nerfes right now or there won't be ways to get back.

Lykeion · April 16

Before subclassing goes live on the live servers, I hope the devs can reorganize the placement of certain base class skills within their respective skill lines—just as they previously did for the Nightblade.

Vague-defined skill distributions hinder these older classes from fully embracing the subclassing system. For example: Dragonknight tanks rely on key skills from all three of their skill lines, making it impossible to gain meaningful benefits from subclassing without sacrificing core functionality. Templar DPS similarly depends on abilities spread across all three of their skill lines.

Unlike later classes, which were designed with clearer distinctions between skill line roles, these older classes suffer from less intentional design. If the devs could address this issue, it would greatly improve their ability to participate meaningfully in the subclassing system.

madmufffin · April 16

Seems like the best approach at this point would just be to give bonuses per base class skill lines. While I am completely fine with absolutely busted combos and getting to have fun with big numbers, it does really just gimp people playing the base classes or only subbing out one line. Giving like 10-15% damage/mitigation/resources/etc. per base class skill line beyond one would be a really nice way to help even the playing field a bit for pure class users or even people looking to just implement one subclass. As of right now there's no reason not to just grab two broken skill lines from any class other than sorc since that class is useless for dps

Deter1UK · April 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

As it is, the players can choose 'nothing changes' versus 'more power and more versatility,' which is not a reasonable choice. Even when subclassing in games like D&D, adding more subclasses is a way to give characters more options, but you do so at the expense of accessing the most powerful features of your original class.

Disable the Ultimate?

Wereswan · April 16

[Edit: deleting this because it feels like some limitations are still better than the "anything goes" some folks are lobbying for, even if I think the limitations are ultimately misaimed.]

balthasars_darksideb16_ESO · April 16

Hoi o7

Anyone testet if the Claw of the Forest Wraith Set
works with sublass skills?
problably only gonna use class skills on life server arive

tomofhyrule · April 16

I’ve been talking about subclassing with my friends since we found out about it, and we’ve always just had the big fear of balance. Of course it sounds fun and it’ll be great for people who just want to play their characters as mages who can pull out any skill and not be locked to class lines, but swinging too far only leads to balancing issues.

There are essentially two groups here: those who think Subclassing will make ESO an incredible and customizable experience, and those who think Subclassing will be the death of the endgame community. And honestly, both are right. And each group is coming from a different place, and we can see a lot of similarities between them.

The pro-Subclassing people tend to be those who play solo. They care about their characters as being able to be free to do whatever, and don’t really care about endgame content. The other side tends to be endgame players who see that Subclassing will lead to entirely too much power and will actually invalidate every setup except for a single set of three lines. They aren’t against Subclassing, but they are for keeping some semblance of balance.

There is one thing ZOS could do to satisfy both groups: allow Subclassing only in normal and overland instances, not in PvP or vet dungeons/trials. In that way, the players who want Subclassing (who don’t really do vet content or PvP, at least not on their RP characters) can go wild with it. Honestly, have fun with your fireball-casting, lightning-calling ice mage while blasting through the overland and the public dungeons. But then the endgame communities don’t need to see the balance get eradicated and all metas end up being even more damage from even tankier players and stupid amounts of DPS to skip literally all mechanics.

If we could have Subclassing restricted from leaderboarded content like that, I even think Subclassing should be even more permissive in normals. The double skill point cost is just an unnecessary barrier to entry, and it should only be a single skill point like everything else. I also think that you should be able to take as many lines from a class as you want and trade away all three of your parent lines. It’d be great for people to trade all three class lines for all three lines of another to finally have a Class Change in-all-but-name.

Please ZOS, consider keeping Subclassing as normal only, at least for the time being. It would still allow the players who want the flexibility to roleplay their characters how they want to still do so, but without making life miserable for endgame. ESO should not go out of its way to disenfranchise any of its players, and making a Subclassing-not-available-in-leaderboarded-content compromise would solve a lot of problems at once.

madmufffin · April 16

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I’ve been talking about subclassing with my friends since we found out about it, and we’ve always just had the big fear of balance. Of course it sounds fun and it’ll be great for people who just want to play their characters as mages who can pull out any skill and not be locked to class lines, but swinging too far only leads to balancing issues.

There are essentially two groups here: those who think Subclassing will make ESO an incredible and customizable experience, and those who think Subclassing will be the death of the endgame community. And honestly, both are right. And each group is coming from a different place, and we can see a lot of similarities between them.

The pro-Subclassing people tend to be those who play solo. They care about their characters as being able to be free to do whatever, and don’t really care about endgame content. The other side tends to be endgame players who see that Subclassing will lead to entirely too much power and will actually invalidate every setup except for a single set of three lines. They aren’t against Subclassing, but they are for keeping some semblance of balance.

There is one thing ZOS could do to satisfy both groups: allow Subclassing only in normal and overland instances, not in PvP or vet dungeons/trials. In that way, the players who want Subclassing (who don’t really do vet content or PvP, at least not on their RP characters) can go wild with it. Honestly, have fun with your fireball-casting, lightning-calling ice mage while blasting through the overland and the public dungeons. But then the endgame communities don’t need to see the balance get eradicated and all metas end up being even more damage from even tankier players and stupid amounts of DPS to skip literally all mechanics.

If we could have Subclassing restricted from leaderboarded content like that, I even think Subclassing should be even more permissive in normals. The double skill point cost is just an unnecessary barrier to entry, and it should only be a single skill point like everything else. I also think that you should be able to take as many lines from a class as you want and trade away all three of your parent lines. It’d be great for people to trade all three class lines for all three lines of another to finally have a Class Change in-all-but-name.

Please ZOS, consider keeping Subclassing as normal only, at least for the time being. It would still allow the players who want the flexibility to roleplay their characters how they want to still do so, but without making life miserable for endgame. ESO should not go out of its way to disenfranchise any of its players, and making a Subclassing-not-available-in-leaderboarded-content compromise would solve a lot of problems at once.

Subclassing isn't going to kill the endgame. It's going to raise the floor for a lot of people who haven't been able to take that step up and open up a whole new realm of possibilities for those at the top of the endgame. If your definition of the endgame is solely getting a checkmark on your Pithkas, then your definition is the issue and not subclassing.

Alchimiste1 · April 16

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

The problem with this is that it ISN'T SUB-CLASSING. It is Multi-Classing. There is an massive difference.

You are letting people cherry pick skill lines to create cheeseball builds. You SHOULD have done actual subclassing. Introduce for each class 2 new skill lines that you could either use as as 4th skill line or to swap out one of your base 3. All of this nonsense could have been avoided.

Instead you're going to let me have dragon leap on a night blade and ball groups all have cloak or all have negates. It's just silly.

true

gorynych_88 · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

Subclassing isn't going to kill the endgame. It's going to raise the floor for a lot of people who haven't been able to take that step up and open up a whole new realm of possibilities for those at the top of the endgame. If your definition of the endgame is solely getting a checkmark on your Pithkas, then your definition is the issue and not subclassing.

"Subclassing" (it's not subclassing as greatly pointed up here, it's multiclassing and without limits it's just stupidity) will exactly kill the endgame in trials and PvP if they will go the way they already started. They should right now refuse of nerfing class abillitites, set that ones they changed back, and think about just limiting skills power on apply for non-native classes. It's the only way to keep at least some balance somehow. If they will prolongue to move this way they move now it will be the sad and awful fatality for the gameplay and not the light you want to see for some reason.

PS: Ideally if add this updates - it should be only 1 skill line allowed to change and not more, and some weakenings for abilities themsleves (like many people already offered in dedicated topics and here) but only when you use it on another class, not for the base ability. Caus it's the worst ever idea but x2 even - to break original unique class spells (that became usable again only last years after all the experiments with DoTs, weapon skill lines etc etc)... It means from the very start that you won't play pure classes as you played before even close and you could play ONLY with damn hybrids (out of running delves and quests ofc).

Even when CP were reworked and they made any other changes to mechanics (even worst ones) for years nothing affected characters power that noticeable as it (how we can judge for now) will be this time. So I just wondered how changes like this could be even started by devs from straight breaking class powers and how some players can not understand these simple things.

madmufffin · April 16

gorynych_88 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Subclassing isn't going to kill the endgame. It's going to raise the floor for a lot of people who haven't been able to take that step up and open up a whole new realm of possibilities for those at the top of the endgame. If your definition of the endgame is solely getting a checkmark on your Pithkas, then your definition is the issue and not subclassing.

"Subclassing" (it's not subclassing as greatly pointed up here, it's multiclassing and without limits it's just stupidity) will exactly kill the endgame in trials and PvP if they will go the way they already started. They should right now refuse of nerfing class abillitites, set that ones they changed back, and think about just limiting skills power on apply for non-native classes. It's the only way to keep at least some balance somehow. If they will prolongue to move this way they move now it will be the sad and awful fatality for the gameplay and not the light you want to see for some reason.

PS: Ideally if add this updates - it should be only 1 skill line allowed to change and not more, and some weakenings for abilities themsleves (like many people already offered in dedicated topics and here) but only when you use it on another class, not for the base ability. Caus it's the worst ever idea but x2 even - to break original unique class spells (that became usable again only last years after all the experiments with DoTs, weapon skill lines etc etc)... It means from the very start that you won't play pure classes as you played before even close and you could play ONLY with damn hybrids (out of running delves and quests ofc). Even when CP were reworked and any other changes of mechanics (even worst ones) for years weren't affect characters power that noticeable as it already seems will be this time. So I just wondered how changes like this could be even started by devs from straight breaking class powers and how some players can not understand these simple things.

Yet several scorepushing WR holding groups, tri prog groups, and hm prog groups are all excited to have new and refreshing gameplay to build strats around to change how they've approached certain content for years. But sure endgame is gonna die because damage went up

gorynych_88 · April 16

madmufffin wrote: »

Yet several scorepushing WR holding groups, tri prog groups, and hm prog groups are all excited to have new and refreshing gameplay to build strats around to change how they've approached certain content for years. But sure endgame is gonna die because damage went up

I'm happy for those mad minmaxers who want to play even completely broken game (and tbh that part of community don't really care what project they play, and how they help to kill one-by-one last years with their askings and apllauds to crazy core mechanic-breakers, it's cross-MMO sickness nowadays sadly, and even if they are not bigger part of communities they are too loud) and see the "fun" in this only caus of their EVEN BIGGER NUMBARHS without caring about anything else. That's why I competite them with WoW-funserver players...
But what about other players? Those that don't want to refuse of class-exclusive gameplay and don't need to simplify the game with even more numbers of DPS caus even now that's too much in exact this game? You don't care I see, but maybe devs at least still care for the noticeable part of the community, who knows... It will be just sad to see another great game killed by own developers in the end, like there not enough examples.

PS: I don't even speak of PvP ofc

, there are enough words by people that also play it, even in this topic before.