MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

1- Not irrelevant. a PvE main commenting on PvP is commenting on something they know very little about because they don't participate in the activity being discussed and don't have the background or experience to make informed commentary. In this very thread the people posting in support of vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. Read their posts. They say so.

2- Not wrong. You and Xylena are the only two PvP mains I see posting in favor of vengeance. Every other PvP main I talk to and see posting on this forum are posting in opposition to a vengeance mode and requesting ZOS focus on fixing the original PvP format.

3- Not short sighted. We all started out with PvE and moved on to PvP. The original PvP, not vengeance PvP

Anyone who's thinking ZOS will support two different game modes for PvP at the same time is delusional based on the fact that ZOS for most of the last decade hasn't even fully supported the original PvP game mode. PvP in Cyrodiil has taken the back burner to everything PvE since a few years after release. To think that ZOS would put the time and money into supporting two different versions of PvP when historically they barely even supported the original version is not rational.

It's posts like this why I am reluctant to identify myself as a PvPer. I have no desire to be lumped into this sort of elitist opinion in which only seasoned, serious, and talented players in a niche aspect of the game are the only opinions that should be considered valid.

Just because someone is highly skilled and experienced in a particular skill, does not make them a expert when it comes to evaluating said skill in it's totality. How else to explain why the greatest basketball player who ever lived (Michael Jordan) was perhaps the worst general manager in the past 25 years? It's because so much more goes into the success of anything than the narrow focus of being very good at it. Not to mention that very talent often biases and blinds them to very real problems; they have the skill, desire, drive, and God given ability to overcome flaws, problems, and other red flags that would turn away mere mortals, so these highly skilled elite often gloss over very real problems that ultimately cause the downfall of the product they are in charge of. People with decision making authority need to have a broad vision and be able to objectively evaluate the many factors that determine success, not just a narrow vision of how to be very good at one particular skill.

This sort of elitist thinking is also a big contributing factor why the PvP community is so small and why for the past decade ZOS has been hesitate to support or invest in it. Why would a PvEer want to even bother partaking in PvP if their commentary, opinions, and beliefs, are going to be so casually discarded and denigrated because they are not the greatest players? Here's a pro tip for all the experienced veteran PvPers: half of them are by definition below average on any given night they log into Cyrodiil. Many of them are not nearly as good and knowledgeable at ESO as they think they are.

Vengeance's critics are so convinced Vengeance will be a flash in the pan. Nobody knows that. They don't. It's just an assumption that somehow "casuals" will lose interest. It's taking a barebones test that didn't even have weapon skills and admittedly unbalanced classes, and just assuming that will be the final product, never to change. Give me a break.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Most of the players I see advocating for Vengeance are not even grey host regulars and would never stay regardless of the changes made.

@SxFurey is the only vet player I see here or in gh that had somethin positive to say, which I respectfully disagree of course but respect your opinion.

Who could have thought that players advocating for one ruleset and hating the other do not play much in the ruleset they hate?

Who could have thought that players already having meta builds with superior stats/procs and therefore beeing on the top of food chain do not advocate for a ruleset were everyone has equal stats?

Who could have thought that players advocating for equal stats do not play in a uneven PvP were players with meta builds are at the top and players without meta builds at the bottom when they were
mostly the ones without?

Players with privileges almost always defend their privileges and play more than players without who get farmed until they quit.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The rest, pvers or blackreach/ravenwatch enjoyers making comments that would ruin pvp they don't play and won't play long term if implemented.

Why „ blackreach/ravenwatch enjoyers“ „don't play“ pvp? It is same as grey host except cp/faction lock.

How can you be so sure they „won't play long term if implemented“? Many are interested in PvP but do not play because it is so bad.

I've been a PVPer for ages and Vengence was my jam.
Class skills, no cheese, no tower humpers, no troll tanks, no bombers (and I bomb,,,) just continuous fights. Its was glorious. I laugh at all the people "oh it was just zerg" no it was not. I did more xing on the trail of people running or on the fringes of keeps or at resources.

Yes it was slow and the skills need tweaking but the baseline was fantastic. I saw people in that had never been in before and they gave good accounts of themselves. They were able to do it because the field was more level for them. Why is this a problem? I'm all for getting more folks involved. This ruleset and the golden pursuit incentive made it attractive for folks to try it out. I also imagine the separate skill set will be easier to balance and not affect pve skills when adjusted. Win win no?

Also why is GH now the arbiter of PVP?

SxFurey wrote: »

Vengeance was definitely a breath of fresh air and a needed change of pace from the cross healing ball group encounters and proc set vomit galore in GH. To top it off, seeing hundreds of players in a 3-way Arrius fight with little to no lag is just insanely memorable. With no sets and using only curated skills, everyone including a pvp newbie has an equal fighting chance.

Quite frankly I couldn't agree more. This is what many of us have wanted all along and was nice for ZOS to show us and prove what they can still do with PvP, despite all the negativity that's floating around out there. With that said, I know a few on here wanted my thoughts on the 'Vengeance' experience and so I'm going to leave that here.

Let's start with some facts without making this too intense:

Technical Troubles:

- 2 Server drops but was able to quickly log back in and go straight back to Cyrodiil
but otherwise..
- No lag
- No stuck in combat bug
- No rubber banding
- No paper clips or missing staplers either
So, no real issues compared to regular PvP which has all of the above happening frequently ok.

Gameplay Highlights

- If I wanted to group, I generally found one with ease
- That said, still some problems with call outs and people staying focused. Some issues with one Guild or party undermining what another party was doing. Like saying stupid things in chat and calling people away from defense when they practically begged for people to go there. Not a ZOS issue but something worth noting because it was problematic.
- No unkillable ridiculous ball groups
- No bombers

Here's the thing. Because there was no ball groups, the gameplay felt more organic. In other words, no one was waiting for a ball group to siege or you know, kill off another zerg. Our zergs, groups, whatever you want to consider them as, was able to move more fluently around the map. Which with a ball group, yes they can move easy but everyone else is kind of stuck because they kill everyone they come into contact with. It was wonderful to enjoy PvP without a ball group in sight.

Alright bombers. So, I'm down for a gag, or a goose or a prank or a mud ball or an over zealous lore expert every once in a while. Its fun. I'm not the type to just be like uh... a certain faction I know whose known for being cold and sterile ok. So I don't mind a bomb once in a while. However, if you have seen some of the PvP on GH in recent months, alot of times a keep fighting is nothing but bombs, like a bunch of tornadoes just crashing thru the place everywhere. Well, there were no bombers here per say. And it was nice.

But rather than just hate on the bombers, lets think about this for a quick minute. No bombers mean there's what? Battle-lines, good guess. See, I had no idea Vengeance would provide this ok, but something I've asked for is the return of battle-lines. What is a battle-line you asked? See YouTube > Wizards and Warriors or Historica I think where they talk about the conquests of Alexander the Great, the Life of Julius Caesar including his Military Campaigns, War in Carthage with Africanus as well as fighting on the Eastern front during WWII (German or Russian doesn't really matter). This is how traditionally, armies faced off in combat, which became nature's way of fighting for most of human civilization. It isn't what we have now with one ego-driven ball group exploiting and doing what they will, serving no one else, and bombers killing people so fast a line would not even be possible.

Now that these elements were gone from Vengeance, we had crazy things like lines of factions squaring off between Sej and Alessia, pushing each other back, you had smaller lines from the wings harassing the enemies' flanks, you had a real fight going on and this type of combat was inclusive towards all skill types as well as permitting more people to come online and join the fight. See a battle line needs people - that's it. Its not some exclusive ball group or guild, lording over everyone and saying who can join and who can't and a small group of people forcing an entire faction to bend the knee thru exploiting groups buffs with a machine doing the work for them. This is immoral. This is what so many of us hate and now you see... you cannot ignore the fact that we don't need them. That's the good news my lovelies... we don't need them.

No no no. With campaigns like Vengeance, everyone has the opportunity to shine. To be seen and heard and to revel in the glory of their own talent and skill. Even if its an organized group, that group can no longer exploit good people to abuse everyone and glorify themselves. That said, I enjoyed Vengeance because it enabled me to finally show that I as a solo player am stronger than many have given me credit for. Now it's not all about me, this does not apply to me solely as there was several of us who I noticed exceled greatly in this campaign. It allowed us to settle up and show greatness, thru skill and strength and a disciplined, patient approach. I went up against a certain faction many times and there were a few others too and we put you guys to shame without even trying or exploiting. One example and certainly not the only one, was where a few of us eliminated a much larger enemy line. No groups, no exploits, no computers, no ego, no judgement, no uh calling out people for being Elitist when you yourselves display Elitist behavior frequently and call people Elitist just for disagreeing with you.

Ya'll got destroyed. Every solo player out there took a victory lap with Vengeance. Some will ask but why? How did this thing happen when we have our ball groups and zergs and so forth? It's because this is what happens when people hide behind other people, they hide behind computers and use exploits as substitutes for real skill while abusing other people for demonstrating and having real talent and skill. The abuse needs to stop. ZOS, thank you so much for this Vengeance Campaign + Experience. Personally, I can attest that many of us felt alot better being able to finally demonstrate our arguments as being not just people who complain or whatever but what we're saying is real. And Vengeance gave us a voice, kind of, to be ourselves, to be real and to hopefully open some eyes out there that the way things are is a joke. It's just nonsense and people are tired of logging in with their heads down and unable to take the fight to those who are asking for it the loudest. Like AD Guild Officers on Blackreach telling solo players to leave the server that the faction no longer needs them. You know, these are in my opinion bad people, and it was good to see so many solo players totally decimating not just a few but groups of players, bringing down entire battle lines, standing tall instead of being forced to make room for people to troll us and waste our time. Bringing down their whole corrupt 'system' by ourselves and making them finally see us for who we are and themselves for what they are not.

If given the opportunity, we will gladly do it again. But because that's not what some people want, which is why they left places like Ravenhost, you know some don't want a challenge they don't want to show greatness thru strength they just want to see how much they can get away with. And on Vengeance we didn't let you guys do that but until Vengeance no one had a choice but to tolerate their BS. And that's all else I'm going to say. Until next time.

sans-culottes wrote: »

illutian wrote: »

Hopefully they'll be cheeky and make another Cyro event: REvengence

And this time test Gear Sets + Vengeance skills.

---

No really, proper test is needed. I've had sieges were it's 1990s Dialup with a small ball in the wee hours, and 2016 Fiber with siege-capped and several full raids running around. I think it's Gear Sets doing this, with the cost 'check' for triggers and such. But it could also be the cost spamming of abilities that are causing the lag (I'd be betting on any HoT/Regen type abilities).

Also. Definitely another test event titled Boogaloo, where it's non-AOE Gear Sets + Vengeance skills.

Please no. The “class balance” was dreadful. If they were to address the many glaring issues with Vengeance’s balancing—something they kept telling players to set aside when describing their experiences—then this might be feasible. However, the Necromancer class in its live and Vengeance forms lacks many of the tools essential to success in PvP.

The undodgeable and big HP potential of Vengeance Necromancer felt amazing. I'm gonna disagree on that. Again. Vengeance rewarded people who understand the core combat mechanics - what is blockable/dodgeable, what stuns, what is resource efficent, etc. It teaches people how to actually play PVP instead of slapping sets against each other resulting in 5% of said sets being viable answers.

The outliers were Nightblade having access to Major Resolve and Cloak at the same time and Sorcerer having mobility inaccessible to anyone else. Every other class had uniquely powerful tools but they weren't as powerful as the NB or Sorc in Vengeance. To a degree, that helps to show what Live PVP suffers from in terms of class balance before we get into sets. A Vengeance DK can heal a lot and lock a player down but they will never zoom around. Zooming around is very strong.

Lags wrote: »

Zos is going to do whatever they want and nothing anyone says is going to change it. So these arguments seem a bit pointless. But i just wanted to point out a few things about your post. Its kind of crazy to call people elitist because they dont like the idea that players who dont normally pvp, or dont like pvp, are probably going to effect the furture of pvp in such a large way. Especially from people with such a disdain for cyrodiil and pvpers in general.

I think the most short sighted among these people are the ones who are asking for this campaign to be added back exactly how it is. That sounds insane. Of course people would get sick of it. You can agree to disagree, but youd be wrong. That being said, they arent going to add vengeance back as it was. They will either adjust cyro or add in something thats actually finished. But of course its still frustrating to see a bunch of people, who dont like cyrodiil, advocating for zos to add this form of cyrodiil back in, and pledging their love for it.

Theres also a big difference between the people in charge having a broad vision, and making good decisions and changes for the player base, and completely gutting content that has been here from the start. If they wanted to gut cyrodiil they should have done it years ago. And a large part of eso players always seem to want things made easier, or dumbed down. And zos has obliged them time and time again. Is it wrong to be concerned about it happening again? In the one place you play every day, and have for years? And should eso just be the game where everything is incredibly simple and easy? Because many people would like it that way. Does that make it the right move?

As for the pvp community, It isn't small because of elitists, or because its too hard for new players, its small because zos has been chasing away pvpers for years. What do you imagine happens when you have a pvp zone with extreme performance issues that only get worse every year, never getting better? An issue that makes it nearly unplayable and unbearable on a daily basis, for many years. People get sick of it and leave. And then zos does almost nothing for pvp for years, no new content, no good updates, and most of the rare changes they do make, like no proc no cp, are done poorly. What do you think happens then? More people leave.

And then on top of all of that they refuse to make changes to address issues, like healing or ball groups. Oh, and they shrink the population size of cyrodiil. And in the end we are left with 2 campaigns that people play. One is full and performs terribly, and the other one is usually pretty dead except for the weekends and sometimes during prime time. So more people leave, because the choice between unplayable lag and dead boring is not a good choice.

Its not elitist attitudes or a barrier to entry that chases people away. Its zos. Pvp was most popular when there was more elitist attitudes, more competitiveness, and more toxicity. Almost no one cares anymore. But there was also way more new players in cyrodiil back then as well. So i dont buy into the idea that pvp is too hard or too toxic. Especially now. People just dont care anymore, and when people dont care there is no motivation.

And agian, i think all of this is on zenimax. Thats my main point here. I really wish instead of pledging their love of vengeance more people would have been criticizing zenimax about how bad things got in cyrodiil, and try to get them to make it better instead of replace it. Its not just performance, yes performance is the number 1 issue but you cant have 5 really bad issues all at once, for years, and expect people not to quit.

Balance is bad. Ball groups are bad. Over healing is bad. Bugs are bad. Zos should have been focusing on these things for a long time now, but they have ignored it. Even when they took out cross healing, they said it didnt do enough for performance to leave it out. But when you're trying to fix a hole with duct tape maybe its a good idea to put a few pieces of tape. Maybe no cross healing, plus no cp, plus changing some skills, plus some of the other things they've done, could have improved things. But we'll never know because they tried it for a week and gave up on it.

I know you dont like cyrodiil as it currently is, and thats fine, obv i have issues with it to. I just think zos should have been addressing the balance issues along side of performance over the last 5 years instead of making some drastic changes all at once, which is what im sure they will do. Sweeping blanket changes is what we usually get from zos.

And its also clear you dont like "veteran pvpers" as you said. Which is also fine, truly i wouldnt have it any other way. But i would at least think you would understand the frustration. If you've been pvping for as long as you say then clearly you loved cyrodiil at some point. Well we still love it, we just want it to perform as it should, and maybe for zos to address some balance issues.

I have to admit though, Im not sure why you still pvp if you hate it. Maybe because you've been playing in a ball group since 2014. Which is a little strange to hear, especially when you are on here talking about what has damaged the pvp community, and elitist pvpers. I think ball groups are pretty high up on the list of things that are damaging to cyrodiil. And its something that most people hate, and for good reason. Ball groups have become pretty toxic over the last few years. But again, i personally wouldnt blame you for that. I would blame zos, for not addressing it.

Nobody knows what the future mode will be, that depends on the results of the test. And nobody wants total gutting of the current mode, some of us are simply asking for more accessible alternative. That said, the current mode is as good as dead - Vengeance showed that lag-free Cyro is possible but something will have to be sacrificed. More tests are needed to see what must go for the game to run smoothly. But there will be changes whether we like it or not.

Concerning the population, I wouldn’t put all the blame exclusively on ZOS neither although I agree that it’s on them mostly. For example, ball groups. Sure, ZOS empowered them with all the sets and mechs, but they didn’t tell players to run in circles for hours stomping on pugs and chasing solos. So yes, players also bear some responsibility for declining population with such unnecessary toxicity.

Finally, I don’t see no point in referring to the last 10 years. Isn’t the current effort of fixing performance quite the opposite of what was delivered until now? I can understand the ptsd of previous botched efforts but let’s accord ZOS some benefit of doubt - maybe they are taking it seriously this time.

Mayrael wrote: »

Beyond the obvious conflict of interest between PvP players (who enjoy theorycrafting, experimenting with builds, and searching for that perfect setup for their own playstyle) and casuals, who either don’t want to or can’t create a good build and therefore want to take that possibility away from the former, none of the casuals bring up the topic of MMOs and RPGs.

So I ask, what’s the point of implementing a PvP mode in an MMO game focused on character development and gear collection if all of that becomes completely useless? Games like that exist in a different form and have their own niche.

Wouldn’t it be more correct to distinguish between hardcore and casual PvP players? Just because some players have less time to invest in figuring out builds, it doesn’t make them any less PvP players.
Most players ask for alternative mode, we’re happy to keep the GH for those who enjoy it.
And your question was answered multiple times - the reason is accessibility.

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

1- Not irrelevant. a PvE main commenting on PvP is commenting on something they know very little about because they don't participate in the activity being discussed and don't have the background or experience to make informed commentary. In this very thread the people posting in support of vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. Read their posts. They say so.

2- Not wrong. You and Xylena are the only two PvP mains I see posting in favor of vengeance. Every other PvP main I talk to and see posting on this forum are posting in opposition to a vengeance mode and requesting ZOS focus on fixing the original PvP format.

3- Not short sighted. We all started out with PvE and moved on to PvP. The original PvP, not vengeance PvP

Anyone who's thinking ZOS will support two different game modes for PvP at the same time is delusional based on the fact that ZOS for most of the last decade hasn't even fully supported the original PvP game mode. PvP in Cyrodiil has taken the back burner to everything PvE since a few years after release. To think that ZOS would put the time and money into supporting two different versions of PvP when historically they barely even supported the original version is not rational.

It's posts like this why I am reluctant to identify myself as a PvPer. I have no desire to be lumped into this sort of elitist opinion in which only seasoned, serious, and talented players in a niche aspect of the game are the only opinions that should be considered valid.

Just because someone is highly skilled and experienced in a particular skill, does not make them a expert when it comes to evaluating said skill in it's totality. How else to explain why the greatest basketball player who ever lived (Michael Jordan) was perhaps the worst general manager in the past 25 years? It's because so much more goes into the success of anything than the narrow focus of being very good at it. Not to mention that very talent often biases and blinds them to very real problems; they have the skill, desire, drive, and God given ability to overcome flaws, problems, and other red flags that would turn away mere mortals, so these highly skilled elite often gloss over very real problems that ultimately cause the downfall of the product they are in charge of. People with decision making authority need to have a broad vision and be able to objectively evaluate the many factors that determine success, not just a narrow vision of how to be very good at one particular skill.

This sort of elitist thinking is also a big contributing factor why the PvP community is so small and why for the past decade ZOS has been hesitate to support or invest in it. Why would a PvEer want to even bother partaking in PvP if their commentary, opinions, and beliefs, are going to be so casually discarded and denigrated because they are not the greatest players? Here's a pro tip for all the experienced veteran PvPers: half of them are by definition below average on any given night they log into Cyrodiil. Many of them are not nearly as good and knowledgeable at ESO as they think they are.

Vengeance's critics are so convinced Vengeance will be a flash in the pan. Nobody knows that. They don't. It's just an assumption that somehow "casuals" will lose interest. It's taking a barebones test that didn't even have weapon skills and admittedly unbalanced classes, and just assuming that will be the final product, never to change. Give me a break.

Is it elitist to go to the dentist when you have a toothache? Do you take your car to a dentist when there is something wrong with your car? No. We rely on those that know their trade to take care of these things because we don't have the education or experience to resolve these issues on our own. Same goes for ESO PvP. The people ZOS should be listening to are the PvP mains, not the PvE mains when it comes to advice on how to move forward to improve the Cyrodiil PvP that we log in to play. We don't need a new system. We need ZOS to fix the system they already have; the system we've logged in to play for over a decade now.

And we DO know that the last two days of the vengeance campaign didn't even have a queue during prime time on the weekend. People were already bored with it after less than a week.

JustLovely wrote: »

And we DO know that the last two days of the vengeance campaign didn't even have a queue during prime time on the weekend. People were already bored with it after less than a week.

Having a queue is a con not a plus. TBH a full queue constantly is a deterrent, not a draw.

Every time I was in there were enough fights to go around and enough action to go round. Didn't notice boredom.

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Most of the players I see advocating for Vengeance are not even grey host regulars and would never stay regardless of the changes made.

@SxFurey is the only vet player I see here or in gh that had somethin positive to say, which I respectfully disagree of course but respect your opinion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

The rest, pvers or blackreach/ravenwatch enjoyers making comments that would ruin pvp they don't play and won't play long term if implemented.

Why „ blackreach/ravenwatch enjoyers“ „don't play“ pvp? It is same as grey host except cp/faction lock.

How can you be so sure they „won't play long term if implemented“? Many are interested in PvP but do not play because it is so bad.

Again, making my point for me.

Blackreach and Ravenwatch are basically dead, people jump to one faction and zerg empty keeps. It is siege simulator, not pvp. No they do not play pvp, they play pvdoor. They are happy to not think about builds and zerg, and as a result those campaigns are always dead.

Sorry but the majority here do not know what they are talking about, don't pvp, and haven't for years.
Why do we need to make pvp for pvers, we can revitalize pvp without changing it entirely, they have accidentally before just by addressing lag, which was done through regular maintenance and new servers.

Lag was fixed again recently from them rebooting the servers and maintenance.

On the stream he said Vengeance testing is coming back!!! Can't wait. He even mentioned the Chalamo fight!

blktauna wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

And we DO know that the last two days of the vengeance campaign didn't even have a queue during prime time on the weekend. People were already bored with it after less than a week.

Having a queue is a con not a plus. TBH a full queue constantly is a deterrent, not a draw.

Every time I was in there were enough fights to go around and enough action to go round. Didn't notice boredom.

Saying you're not a PvP main without saying "I'm not a PvP main".

Vengeance was just a zerg fest. It was lame in every way. No build diversity. No multiple sieges. No skill gap what so ever. Whichever zerg was bigger won the fight and took the keep. It was the worst PvP I've ever played and everyone in my PvP guild agreed. None of us will stick around for any version of vengeance mode.

SpiritKitten wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

SpiritKitten wrote: »

On the stream he said Vengeance testing is coming back!!! Can't wait. He even mentioned the Chalamo fight!

Yep. Looks like it time to play the PvP those of us PvP mains log on to play as much as we can before it's gone forever. Time to find a new game.

It's only coming back as another test. They are gonna flip on some more things and see if they can maintain server stability. They are trying to find the causes of the server instability. Regular PvP is still going to be available. I play it every day almost. I am not worried.

If they don't already know the cause of the performance problems then no amount is testing is going to result in them figuring it out.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

And yes I am familiar with the majority of regulars in the main pvp servers like Xylena above, been around since beta.

I was very pessimistic going into Vengeance and did not expect much, but it was surprisingly solid and shows a lot of promise. Just having Meatbags to break up open field zergs would go a long way, as would having more skill lines, and dealing with a couple pain points like the infinite NB sustain and zerger DK chain spam. As is, smaller fights were fun, dueling was a lot more fun than live to me, felt more like a fighting game.

reazea wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

And we DO know that the last two days of the vengeance campaign didn't even have a queue during prime time on the weekend. People were already bored with it after less than a week.

Having a queue is a con not a plus. TBH a full queue constantly is a deterrent, not a draw.

Every time I was in there were enough fights to go around and enough action to go round. Didn't notice boredom.

Saying you're not a PvP main without saying "I'm not a PvP main".

Vengeance was just a zerg fest. It was lame in every way. No build diversity. No multiple sieges. No skill gap what so ever. Whichever zerg was bigger won the fight and took the keep. It was the worst PvP I've ever played and everyone in my PvP guild agreed. None of us will stick around for any version of vengeance mode.

LOL tell me you crutch on sets without saying it.
I'm in PVP on 3 toon or more on both sides nearly every day. Keep your elitist nonsense to yoursself. Not everyone likes the same thing. I'm stoked for a different test to see what happens.