Vengeance was definitely a breath of fresh air and a needed change of pace from the cross healing ball group encounters and proc set vomit galore in GH. To top it off, seeing hundreds of players in a 3-way Arrius fight with little to no lag is just insanely memorable. With no sets and using only curated skills, everyone including a pvp newbie has an equal fighting chance.

whoda thunk that performance would be better when you gut 99% of the calculations the game has to make /s

Most of the players I see advocating for Vengeance are not even grey host regulars and would never stay regardless of the changes made.

@SxFurey is the only vet player I see here or in gh that had somethin positive to say, which I respectfully disagree of course but respect your opinion.

The rest, pvers or blackreach/ravenwatch enjoyers making comments that would ruin pvp they don't play and won't play long term if implemented.

Xarc wrote: »

Juzz wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

"normal pvp" you mean OP sorcs dominating everybody ?

Aye, normal pvp, where ye just have a skill issue to crack «op sorcs» i presume

There’s always someone demanding nerfs cuz he doesn’t how to deal with the challenges, i just wonder why no nerf demands on gravitation so far 😁

ok man, nobody is complaining about sorcs ofc, i'm alone.
Sorcerers need adjustment (PVP)
Sorcerer disease spreading and other problems Bookmark
pvp - SORCERER META

It's not about not having the level or whatever, sorcs are slightly above the other classes, you have to be naive, blind or in denial not to admit it

but anyway, that's not the subject of this thread

Sorcs are and have been overtuned for a long time, only really suffering from a hard nerf once in the lifetime of the game.

What of it though, you can correct something like that without stripping the pvp of what it is a la vengeance campaign.

This is besides the point of the conversation, there's plenty of changes they can make which will make pvp as it is more fun. Bring back the damage meta, nerf healing. All of those things we can have a conversation about.

Vengeance though is a hard, fat no. It fixes issues we have with the core game at too much of a cost. You may as well play overwatch or marvel rivals instead. Its not an mmo pvp, and certainly isn't what made eso pvp special from other games either.

Vengeance is over and I have not stepped into cyrodill since then.

There's got to be some middle ground between turning Cyrodiil into a MOBA and what it once was, could be again. Where a newcomer wasn't just even less than fresh meat. Let's be honest, in this economy, fresh meat is dope! A non-pvp build uncapped CP is more like drinking your own *** experience. Battle spirit could be adjusted maybe. Close the gaps between the floor and the ceiling, sort of like the Ayleid Torc does (rarely the best option, but frequently better than whatever a newcomer can manage). Maybe make PvP gear 5 sets have one MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE boost to battle spirit (has no effect in PvE) that is strong enough to make it worthwhile like Trial slayers. But stacking 2 has no efffect, so build diversity isn't overly obliviated.

Stridig wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

cyrodiil is empty since vengeance has ended

And i'm pretty sure event isnt the only reason

There has been a queue every single day to get into GH. All three factions locked. That's the opposite of empty.

you mean at primetime? ofc it's prime time.
campaign full only 2hours per day is what I call empty

Xarc wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

cyrodiil is empty since vengeance has ended

And i'm pretty sure event isnt the only reason

There has been a queue every single day to get into GH. All three factions locked. That's the opposite of empty.

you mean at primetime? ofc it's prime time.
campaign full only 2hours per day is what I call empty

You also need to consider the Jubilee event which is what many PvPers use to sustain themselves on gold for the year. Couple that with a year full of events and a recent Mayhem event, and you get a dip. This is nothing new.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

It seems highly unlikely to me that ZOS will ever support two different forms of PvP. Aren't they going to pick one or the other, vengeance or normal?

The people thinking that ZOS will fully support two different versions of PvP at the same time seem awfully naive to me.

Mayrael wrote: »

In general, ZOS should consider the consequences of potentially introducing a campaign similar to Vengeance. Such a campaign is mostly supported by casual players who only play from time to time. With these changes, ZOS might alienate players who have been here for years, while the casuals will play for two weeks, get bored, and stop coming to Cyrodiil altogether. This way, it’s easy to destroy something that many have loved for over a decade, despite its flaws, just to please those who wouldn’t bother visiting Cyrodiil anyway.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time. To me, it seems like vengeance mode is going to be the future, and essentially nobody's going to play it after the first couple weeks because it's just too boring and repetitive. Hopefully ZOS will stand by their statement that vengeance only existed for collecting performance data to use to improve the actual Cyrodiil PvP that we've playing since release.

I have a vanilla wow High Warlord (Takes about 7x longer to get than Emperor, was so hard Blizz removed it because people were acutally literally dying). I have been PVPing since 2002 online. Prior to that it was LAN PVP.

I mained PVP in SWTOR, GW2, Warhammer Online (rip), WOW since BG's launched, New World and to some extent in ESO. I tried cyrodiil around 2017, hoped it would be like sieges in Warhammer Online. It was terrible. Performance, riding around. I simply had no fun, worse PVP experience I ever had. Dabbled in it a few times since then, felt the same way. Its simply, in my opinion, down right boring.

I have played a fair amount of BG's in ESO, I prefer the 8v8, but it has its problems with premades queuing into the solo queue. I don't like unfair matches. Steamrolling or being steamrolled is never fun.

I tried vengeance, begrudgingly...I have an entire thread here on how much I hate cyrodil and edited that post to exclaim how much I enjoyed Vengeance.

Vengeance is not just for "PVErs", its for people who actually like to PVP how MMORPGS PVP is mean to be, and that is objective based where the PVP is the action taken to complete the objective. But it gets better, no bombers, no ball groups, no cheese builds and its INSANELY much easier to report actual cheaters using exploits or 3rd party software because anyone can get on the same toon and see the max amount of damage the class can do.

Vengeance also made classes feel like classes FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ESO HISTORY! That alone was worth the visit into the Vengeance mode.

The way I see it, the people who hate vengeance are the same people who like to grief, kill only...for them PVP is about camping the same easy target, getting that fast "kill" and laughing at the player who has no chance. They like the power differential, they like not actually having to PVP for their easy win. They like the cheese.

A TRUE PVPer would welcome Vengeance with open arms because the mode allows for the best balance the game has ever seen, it allows for people to join, participate and have fun who feel intimidated, might not have the skillset, or innate undersanding of class building, it allows for the best performance this game has ever seen amongst others. Vengeance grows the pvp community.

Vengeance simply opens the door to a wider audience. Something ESO PVP DRASTICALLY needs.

Vengeance needs a monthly reward stucture to keep people in it, but if given the chance I think it has the potential to far outlast any other PVP mode in game.

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

I agree with that

Honestly I don't understand why we should divide players into two categories, PVPers and PVEers, I have played in several casual & balanced guilds and a majority of players do everything, a little PvP in the evening and on weekends, and that's what we find in Cyrodiil and the BG, as well as in dungeons/trials

Taking only the opinion of "PVP players" into account makes no sense, if the very notion of "PVP players" is called into question by the simple fact that many players have left Cyrodiil because they don't like what it has become.

Because the pvpers are the ones who will be sticking around week after week month after month, year after year. Pvers will not and the only thing that this thread really shows is something we always knew, that pvers outnumber pvpers.

Zos should not make changes according to people who only come in for a day and ruin the pvp for the people who love it. Especially when this is the end game content with the goal of keeping vet players playing.

And to reiterate I see majority strangers here celebrating vengeance and the same goes for gh zone chat. Vet players of pvp dont want this, and the pvers who do will still mostly play pve.

All this will do is kill pvp in the long run for everyone.

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

1- Not irrelevant. a PvE main commenting on PvP is commenting on something they know very little about because they don't participate in the activity being discussed and don't have the background or experience to make informed commentary. In this very thread the people posting in support of vengeance mode are primarily PvE players. Read their posts. They say so.

2- Not wrong. You and Xylena are the only two PvP mains I see posting in favor of vengeance. Every other PvP main I talk to and see posting on this forum are posting in opposition to a vengeance mode and requesting ZOS focus on fixing the original PvP format.

3- Not short sighted. We all started out with PvE and moved on to PvP. The original PvP, not vengeance PvP

Anyone who's thinking ZOS will support two different game modes for PvP at the same time is delusional based on the fact that ZOS for most of the last decade hasn't even fully supported the original PvP game mode. PvP in Cyrodiil has taken the back burner to everything PvE since a few years after release. To think that ZOS would put the time and money into supporting two different versions of PvP when historically they barely even supported the original version is not rational.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Finding it a bit silly arguing about campaign being population locked or not since Vengeance, there obviously are people who love what PvP is today, that's surely exceeds the current pop caps numbers that are insanely low. The thing is though that there is probably also a very large audience of people who would also like to PvP if it was different from what it is now be it cause balls or procs, current meta, tanking/ganking etc. Current system already ain't getting much and I'd say close to nothing at all for years so I seriously doubt developing a new form from scratch (Vengeance) would take anything away from current "free form" PvP until there's actually anything to add. Will both be treated equally? Obviously not, one is already bloated to the brim and the other lacks literally any development and is a bland canvas to make something out of it.

Can't argue with this.
A. Live Cyro is most likely never going to be anything better than what it is now.
B. Vengeance had people from all over the game playing it. It clearly had appeal.

The two groups most likely have very little intermixing. So why not go forth with Vengeance. Give it some recurring rewards (new each month) and you have people now spending more time and having fun and when people are having a good time, they are more likely to whip out their wallet.

Now, stop making everything limited time/FOMO and allow people to buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it and make money the good, old fashtioned honest way.

To me it seems like the vast majority speaking in favor of a vengeance mode are PvE mains who aren't going to play any version of Cyrodiil for any significant amount of time.

1. Irrelevant. They are paying customers and their opinions are valid
2. Wrong. I have PvPed since Beta and support Vengeance
3. Short-sighted. I know quite a few ex-PvE mains who became PvPers once they got their feet wet in Cyrodiil and liked it.

I agree with that

Honestly I don't understand why we should divide players into two categories, PVPers and PVEers, I have played in several casual & balanced guilds and a majority of players do everything, a little PvP in the evening and on weekends, and that's what we find in Cyrodiil and the BG, as well as in dungeons/trials

Taking only the opinion of "PVP players" into account makes no sense, if the very notion of "PVP players" is called into question by the simple fact that many players have left Cyrodiil because they don't like what it has become.

Because the pvpers are the ones who will be sticking around week after week month after month, year after year. Pvers will not and the only thing that this thread really shows is something we always knew, that pvers outnumber pvpers.

Zos should not make changes according to people who only come in for a day and ruin the pvp for the people who love it. Especially when this is the end game content with the goal of keeping vet players playing.

And to reiterate I see majority strangers here celebrating vengeance and the same goes for gh zone chat. Vet players of pvp dont want this, and the pvers who do will still mostly play pve.

All this will do is kill pvp in the long run for everyone.

This^

This post is making many of the points I'm trying to make in different words.