Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

You would have to ask ZOS. However, that the same thing is on the Xbox version suggests it’s not wholly dependent on the whims of Sony.

PS. May have read that wrong initially, @tomofhyrule (your username is very funny)—anyway, you can turn off the other voice tools, etc. If you turn off all the audio input and output, then it won’t work. No surprises there. As I said, it’s functionally the same on the Xbox ecosystem, so it’s not exclusive to the Sony ecosystem.

VoxAdActa · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

If the former, then it should be no problem to put it in PC and it's odd that it's not already. Which is why I think it's the latter. And in that case, the ask isn't "ZOS, please activate proxy chat on PC," it's more of a "ZOS, please make a whole voice server to enable this feature that consoles have natively but that doesn't exist on PCs unless PC downloads a separate piece of software and server for it."

Which is exactly why I think ZOS's stance is "PC already has Discord." It's not laziness, it's the fact that XBox/PS ships with XBox/PS voice chat support provided by the console itself, and games only need to activate that native system. PC, however, doesn't have a native gaming chat service, which is why people went to various things like Discord/Teamspeak/etc. so there's nothing for ESO to point to without ZOS making a whole voice service from scratch.

I think it's naïve to assume that "oh, it's like this on Console so it would 100% be exactly the same on PC." I'm sure that there are some pretty big hardware and software differences between XBox/PS and whatever machine PC players have (and that has a lot of variance as well).

Which again leads to the biggest question: is it worth ZOS's time to code (and get server space for) a brand new Voice Chat system that will seriously increase the size of the game on PC and the bandwidth required, when many of the playerbase would not even use that feature since they'd prefer to stick with what they already have established?

As has been said many times, it is native to the console versions of ESO. This is separate from, say, the PSN voice chat.

That's not an answer to the question that was asked.

The question was: Does ZOS have their own dedicated voice chat server, or are the voice functionalities in game piggybacking on PS/XB's existing voice chat server? Not "do you have to use the PSN/XBL interface to use voice chat."

Edit: Right, once again, "Stop caring about the practical details, just do the thing."

tomofhyrule · March 7

sans-culottes wrote: »

You would have to ask ZOS. However, that the same thing is on the Xbox version suggests it’s not wholly dependent on the whims of Sony. 🤷‍♂️

Again, XBox also has a native chat feature.

So it still doesn't prove that ZOS is building a voice chat service and providing servers for it. Rather it supports the idea that ESO chat on consoles (which do have native voice chat and servers for it) is using the console services, whereas on PC (where native voice chat and servers do not exist) this feature does not exist because there is no service to piggyback off of.

spartaxoxo · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

It's the former. ZOS has said in the past they built the voice chat system for consoles because at the time console didn't have good voice chat options but that they didn't make it for PC because they didn't think it would be a good use of resources because PC did. I don't think the resource issue is any less true now. And I think that's probably the number one reason that PC won't get VC.

tomofhyrule · March 7

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

It's the former. ZOS has said in the past they built the voice chat system for consoles because at the time console didn't have good voice chat options but that they didn't make it for PC because they didn't think it would be a good use of resources because PC did. I don't think the resource issue is any less true now. And I think that's probably the number one reason that PC won't get VC.

Ah, that's what I was looking for.

In that case, it seems like it would be no problem to make that service available for PC and I would support them doing so.

However, the latter part of that is still an issue. After 11 years, Discord has established itself quite firmly in the community, and I can't imagine that there would be a mass exodus to ZOS's version over Discord.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Many people don't want to those things because of anxiety disorders (joining discord or other social media) or because of things like injuries or birth defects that make those issues difficult. I explicitly gave you the example of anxiety, which you claimed wasn't a thing. Beyond that in video games, accessibility is used to refer to people who have issues that prevent them from play, even when those things aren't related to a disability. This is because they enable both groups to enjoy the game.

Anxiety disorders that make someone not want to talk to a small, vetted group of trusted individuals but that don't affect talking to random strangers in PUGs or hanging around the crafting tables? That's a remarkably specific form of anxiety. Do you have any scientific papers I can read on this variety of anxiety disorder?

It’s called social anxiety disorder. Many persons suffering from this condition would find the idea of joining a voice chat very difficult. I encourage you to read about it on UpToDate (https://www.uptodate.com/contents/social-anxiety-disorder-in-adults-epidemiology-clinical-features-assessment-and-diagnosis), if you have access to academic and/or medical resources. Belittling others’ experiences of their disabilities is not only unhelpful but unkind.

The example cited is a red herring because, as has been explained, one need not be part of these channels in the first place.

I've never heard of a variety of Social Anxiety Disorder that only triggers with friends but doesn't trigger with strangers. Normally it's the other way around, or both. But you're claiming there's a version that allows a person to interact with strangers in uncontrolled circumstances but prevents interaction with vetted individuals under controlled circumstances? This is why I asked for a paper. I've never heard of this before.

I guess since neither of us are familiar with this patient’s case, then we should reserve judgment. Simply being unfamiliar with the person’s experiences does not invalidate them. Anxiety disorders can be complex.

I should add: This is unproductive and not very nice. I don’t think anyone said it “only” triggers in the very specific conditions you’ve decided they exist in, but that’s not the point of this conversation.

Please stop trying to make this an argument about how people experience their disabilities. If you’d like the answer to such a specific research question, then I encourage you to contact your IRB and set up a randomized controlled trial.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

If the former, then it should be no problem to put it in PC and it's odd that it's not already. Which is why I think it's the latter. And in that case, the ask isn't "ZOS, please activate proxy chat on PC," it's more of a "ZOS, please make a whole voice server to enable this feature that consoles have natively but that doesn't exist on PCs unless PC downloads a separate piece of software and server for it."

Which is exactly why I think ZOS's stance is "PC already has Discord." It's not laziness, it's the fact that XBox/PS ships with XBox/PS voice chat support provided by the console itself, and games only need to activate that native system. PC, however, doesn't have a native gaming chat service, which is why people went to various things like Discord/Teamspeak/etc. so there's nothing for ESO to point to without ZOS making a whole voice service from scratch.

I think it's naïve to assume that "oh, it's like this on Console so it would 100% be exactly the same on PC." I'm sure that there are some pretty big hardware and software differences between XBox/PS and whatever machine PC players have (and that has a lot of variance as well).

Which again leads to the biggest question: is it worth ZOS's time to code (and get server space for) a brand new Voice Chat system that will seriously increase the size of the game on PC and the bandwidth required, when many of the playerbase would not even use that feature since they'd prefer to stick with what they already have established?

As has been said many times, it is native to the console versions of ESO. This is separate from, say, the PSN voice chat.

That's not an answer to the question that was asked.

The question was: Does ZOS have their own dedicated voice chat server, or are the voice functionalities in game piggybacking on PS/XB's existing voice chat server? Not "do you have to use the PSN/XBL interface to use voice chat."

Edit: Right, once again, "Stop caring about the practical details, just do the thing."

Not sure what you mean. I don’t work for ZOS. You could always ask them instead of using inflammatory language.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

It's the former. ZOS has said in the past they built the voice chat system for consoles because at the time console didn't have good voice chat options but that they didn't make it for PC because they didn't think it would be a good use of resources because PC did. I don't think the resource issue is any less true now. And I think that's probably the number one reason that PC won't get VC.

Ah, that's what I was looking for.

In that case, it seems like it would be no problem to make that service available for PC and I would support them doing so.

However, the latter part of that is still an issue. After 11 years, Discord has established itself quite firmly in the community, and I can't imagine that there would be a mass exodus to ZOS's version over Discord.

I completely agree. I suspect that adoption would likely be a bigger Matzoh ball than people are thinking.

spartaxoxo · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

It's the former. ZOS has said in the past they built the voice chat system for consoles because at the time console didn't have good voice chat options but that they didn't make it for PC because they didn't think it would be a good use of resources because PC did. I don't think the resource issue is any less true now. And I think that's probably the number one reason that PC won't get VC.

Ah, that's what I was looking for.

In that case, it seems like it would be no problem to make that service available for PC and I would support them doing so.

However, the latter part of that is still an issue. After 11 years, Discord has established itself quite firmly in the community, and I can't imagine that there would be a mass exodus to ZOS's version over Discord.

I think it should also be noted that when this game launched, console didn't have text chat.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235075/zenimax-please-give-us-your-official-statement-on-the-matter/p1

Stamicka · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But, as I'm asking, is ESO chat on console a thing that ZOS made and put into the game, or does it work because ESO is programmed to use PSN's chat tools?

As in, if someone deactivated PSN chat tools completely and removed the capability to use PSN chat, would ESO's voice chat still function?

I think this is a good question and from what I understand about developing for Xbox, there is an GDK called "Game Chat 2" which provides tools for developers to have voice chats in their games. Because of this, if Xbox Party services were down I think that games using the API would also have voice chats that were down.

I don't play playstation and don't know how they handle it.

With that being said, I think that adding voice chat to PC would require some additional work on ZoS' part. I don't think that this is ever a great reason not to add something though. Somebody at ZoS probably had to work on the 'Screen Narration" feature that many of us would probably find annoying. The number of people who actually use Screen Narration is likely pretty small, but not 0. Some people need this feature in order to fully enjoy the game.

Like I said in an earlier post, accessibility, in short is about making the game playable by the largest possible audience and excluding the least amount of groups possible. This requires investment for sure and these investments are often only utilized by a minority of people. That doesn't stop ZOS from investing in those features anyway to make the game more accessible.

Did you guys even know that ESO had a Screen Narration feature? I'm sure a lot of people don't because it's off by default and you would have to navigate through settings to turn it on. I don't see how voice chat is different.

Amottica · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The person spoke to high-end players and specifically stated that those who pug raids in Craglorn are not pushing trifecta/HM pushers. Those who pug raids in Craglorn are typically not the high-end raiders Vox speaks to.

My last VCR+3 attempt was a PUG in group finder using voice chat. Harder stuff is much less common but feasible (except trifectas) in non-rostered play on here. I can't say I have seen a trifecta. But I've seen Hard Modes and Regular Vet Trial Clears, including newer trials.

and yet rare. As I said, Craglorn pugs are not typically high-end raiders.

spartaxoxo · March 8

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The person spoke to high-end players and specifically stated that those who pug raids in Craglorn are not pushing trifecta/HM pushers. Those who pug raids in Craglorn are typically not the high-end raiders Vox speaks to.

My last VCR+3 attempt was a PUG in group finder using voice chat. Harder stuff is much less common but feasible (except trifectas) in non-rostered play on here. I can't say I have seen a trifecta. But I've seen Hard Modes and Regular Vet Trial Clears, including newer trials.

and yet rare. As I said, Craglorn pugs are not typically high-end raiders.

I'm aware. To remind you, my original point was that I thought voice could help with high end pugs like trial HM on PC. As I am very occasionally (but not commonly) able to find such groups on console. We used the native voice chat for call outs.

You thought I was not talking about high end players but I clarified that I was and used VCR+3 as an example. We didn't clear it but I think that was moreso a factor of time attempted than it being a PUG. They had me on portals at 4 a.m. I kept trying to get them to replace me because we were wiping due to me sometimes. But they kept insisting I stay in group and on portals because of how hard it was to find someone who could do it at all.

I also admitted I did not think it would help with trifectas because that seems to be exclusively rostered content on discord. It's specifically the rare but occasionally available HM.

SilverBride · March 8

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Stamicka wrote: »

Did you guys even know that ESO had a Screen Narration feature? I'm sure a lot of people don't because it's off by default and you would have to navigate through settings to turn it on. I don't see how voice chat is different.

It can only be used when in Accessability mode.

katanagirl1 · March 8

Well this fun little thought experiment has certainly got people riled up.

I play on console every day and almost never use in game voice chat, only for groups when they are not on my friends list and we can’t use PSN.

I play for hours and am never in area chat, group chat, guild chat, or any other chat. I hear nothing of other player’s activities. I enjoy listening to the game music and doing my own thing. Yet lots of people on here don’t think it would be that way if it were implemented on PC.

That’s fine. I just get a bad feeling from hearing you guys dream up unrealistic scenarios of what “could” happen and then say you would fight to have it implemented even as an optional thing. It just seems ironic that all the posts about “gatekeeping” for trials and such where people don’t want to do what the group needs instead of their own wishes, where that definitely does affect other people - but also you would decide for everyone that they could not use voice chat for whatever reason when it does not affect you at all. I think you should reflect on that inconsistency.

Really, we are not saying that you should have voice chat, I think OP was just interested in who might like to have that for their personal use.

This has spiraled way out of hand.

EDIT: typo

Estin · March 8

Other (please describe your thoughts)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

It's the former. ZOS has said in the past they built the voice chat system for consoles because at the time console didn't have good voice chat options but that they didn't make it for PC because they didn't think it would be a good use of resources because PC did. I don't think the resource issue is any less true now. And I think that's probably the number one reason that PC won't get VC.

Ah, that's what I was looking for.

In that case, it seems like it would be no problem to make that service available for PC and I would support them doing so.

However, the latter part of that is still an issue. After 11 years, Discord has established itself quite firmly in the community, and I can't imagine that there would be a mass exodus to ZOS's version over Discord.

Discord would still be the number 1 choice for guilds and friends who play regularly together. Pugs are just going to get the most use out of it in every area of the game because it would mostly replace text callouts and explanations. I haven't play on a console for years, but I can imagine the difference being the same as game chat and party chat. Party chat was private and higher audio quality compared to game chat, and most people tended to use party over game chat unless they wanted to talk to strangers.

randconfig · March 8

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

I would love this, but only if Voice chat network packets were handled via a separate server to prevent burdening the current server/increasing latency.

Amottica · March 8

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The person spoke to high-end players and specifically stated that those who pug raids in Craglorn are not pushing trifecta/HM pushers. Those who pug raids in Craglorn are typically not the high-end raiders Vox speaks to.

My last VCR+3 attempt was a PUG in group finder using voice chat. Harder stuff is much less common but feasible (except trifectas) in non-rostered play on here. I can't say I have seen a trifecta. But I've seen Hard Modes and Regular Vet Trial Clears, including newer trials.

and yet rare. As I said, Craglorn pugs are not typically high-end raiders.

I'm aware. To remind you, my original point was that I thought voice could help with high end pugs like trial HM on PC. As I am very occasionally (but not commonly) able to find such groups on console. We used the native voice chat for call outs.

You thought I was not talking about high end players but I clarified that I was and used VCR+3 as an example. We didn't clear it but I think that was moreso a factor of time attempted than it being a PUG. They had me on portals at 4 a.m. I kept trying to get them to replace me because we were wiping due to me sometimes. But they kept insisting I stay in group and on portals because of how hard it was to find someone who could do it at all.

I also admitted I did not think it would help with trifectas because that seems to be exclusively rostered content on discord. It's specifically the rare but occasionally available HM.

Oh, I agree that VoIP is beneficial, though it has been readily available on PCs for years, decades. So there is no reason for Zenimax to spend money and other resources, including game resources, on adding VoIP.

Yes, I know Discord is available on consoles, but that is a relatively recent addition. It made complete sense for Zenimax to add it to the console version. So, there is no valid reason for adding VoIP to PC. It is petty not to want to use Discord or other VoIPs if you are interested in doing serious content.

M0ntie · March 8

The concept works fine on console. You don't have to be in zone chat unless you want to.
Interesting how averse PC people are to something that is no big deal. It is much better for pug groups to be able to join an in game chat, than have to join a new discord.

The problems will be technical for PC. ZoS have a hard enough time making chat through the game work without bugging out on console, where the hardware is the same (with little variation). I expect that all the different PC builds would make reliable chat through the game technically extremely difficult.

SilverBride · March 8

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

M0ntie wrote: »

Interesting how averse PC people are to something that is no big deal. It is much better for pug groups to be able to join an in game chat, than have to join a new discord.

That's just it. It isn't a big deal for PC players. We have been using Discord for years, and there are many well established channels, so we are already having our needs met.

As far as pugs, it's not normal for PC users to use voice chat in pug dungeons or pug normal trials. I've run multiple dungeons, normal and veteran, and multiple normal trials with pugs, and not a single one of them used voice chat. It's mostly the veteran trials that benefit from voice, and those groups already have Discord channels established.

It is also not normal for PC users to use voice chat for world bosses and other such content. If someone calls out for help in zone chat, players just type "On my way" or some such comment, and go help. We don't even form groups for it most of the time.

It's a different societal norm on PC than on consoles. We just do some things differently. So it isn't a big deal for us to get proximity or other voice chat because we don't need it.

alpha_synuclein · March 8

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Erickson9610 wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Anyway, at this point it's too late to implement.

I like to think that ESO will be around for a much longer time. Maybe it's not too late?

I didn't mean it in the game is dying sense. Just think that the voice vs no voice is the kind of decision that should be made at the stage of design, not 10 years in. And it seems like it was made as such, since console got voice and pc didn't.

baguette_poolish · March 8

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

No, console has the feature if its wanted that bad console players can go back to their consoles and talk there.

sans-culottes · March 8

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

baguette_poolish wrote: »

No, console has the feature if its wanted that bad console players can go back to their consoles and talk there.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here, sorry.

Ragnarok0130 · March 10

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

It would be a complete waste of the limited dev resources that nobody on PC would actually use outside of roleplayers. We already have a preferred voice chat client named discord which has many more features than a proximity chat does.

VoxAdActa · March 10

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

It would be a complete waste of the limited dev resources that nobody on PC would actually use outside of roleplayers. We already have a preferred voice chat client named discord which has many more features than a proximity chat does.

Roleplayers won't even use it, because it opens them up to heckling if they're RPing in public places. If they're RPing in guild houses, etc., they'll probably stay with Discord. And the number of people who RP in voice at all is definitely smaller than the already small subset of players who RP.

Should ESO on PC have an *optional* proximity voice chat?

Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?