Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?

spartaxoxo · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Stamicka wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

If guild, group, and proximity can be toggled individually, I wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with the idea. I'd still have objections to proximity but, with that said, so few people would be using it that it may not even be worth the effort for bad actors to abuse. But I've been told by a source that claims to be authoritative that it's all or nothing, and we can't have guild/group without also having proximity. So anyone who wants to listen to their group also has to consent to listening to every random person nearby.

No someone gave misinformation. The way in game voice chat works on console is through channels. “Area” is its own channel and “Group” is its own channel. Guilds also have their own channels. You can 100% choose to tune into your group channel, but not tune into the Area channel.

When you tune into a group voice channel you absolutely are not forced into the area channel, you can keep it off.

He's referring to me saying that voice chat feature has all three bundled together, so if ZOS tackled this to bring feature parity to all platforms, they'd all come bundled together. I didn't mean that you'd have join area chat to use group. Merely that area chat would exist in the same update that provided native group chat.

alpha_synuclein · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I enjoy voice chats on discord, but I only want to talk to my groupmates. I have no interest listening to random strangers.

Anyway, at this point it's too late to implement.

Erickson9610 · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-out proximity voice chat (On by default)

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Anyway, at this point it's too late to implement.

I like to think that ESO will be around for a much longer time. Maybe it's not too late?

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Really, the poll and question are just for fun.

I haven't found anything fun about being told that we are wrong for not wanting this feature.

By opposing this you are opposing improved accessibility for the deaf/hard of hearing.

It doesn’t make sense to me why anyone would oppose something that has 0 drawbacks to them, but makes a world of a difference for someone else.

This is the first I've heard about any accessibility benefits with this feature. If ZoS wants to add more accessibility features for players then that is great. But that is not what this suggestion is being presented as, nor is it what I'm opposing.

But that’s exactly what it is. Several participants in this conversation have, for instance, in the overland thread lamented a potential increase in difficulty making the game less accessible. For instance, one person—active in this conversation—noted their elderly father’s disabilities and love of this game as part of the reason a harder overland would be rendering the game inaccessible.

That you and Vox don’t like it is fine, but don’t throw up various arguments and get upset when people who’ve experienced what you’re hypothesizing draw on their experiences to challenge misconceptions.

If you’d like to authentically engage with this point, then I encourage you to review the UESP’s page on the different chat tools: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chat. The good news? No “bad actors” are being empowered. This is a concern that can be laid to rest, is purely speculative, and never once came to fruition where the real, existing feature being discussed is implemented.

If for some reason you find people countering hypotheticals with real-world experience to be frustrating, then maybe it’d be wise to give this completely innocuous conversation a little break? If it’s upsetting to you, then the best solution would be to withhold further comments.

Stamicka wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

By opposing this you are opposing improved accessibility for the deaf/hard of hearing.

Nonsense. How does that even track? "I can't hear well, so I need to have people talk to me with their voices rather than type words I can read" is not a thing my audio processing disorder has ever led me to say.

It tracks because since consoles have voice chat, players can turn on “Speech to Text” under the accessibility settings. Turning this on will make it so that speech spoken in game voice chat appears in the HUD like a typed message.

Speech to text is a feature that Discord still doesn’t offer in a viable way. Without it, someone who has trouble hearing would have to ask their group members to type to them to accommodate them.

Having an automatic speech to text option is way more accommodating, since it makes it so that you don’t feel like a burden to your group members and you aren’t left out of the voice conversation going on.

I use this frequently. It’s very convenient, and I’ve never had “bad actors” ruin it.

LesserCircle · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I can’t imagine how you PC guys ever run a vet trials group without voice chat.

We just do the trial, if anyone doesn't know mechanics someone explains them to that person, that's it, it's that easy and I have never joined a voice chat for a dungeon or trial, I have many hard modes and trifectas.

SilverBride · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is the first I've heard about any accessibility benefits with this feature. If ZoS wants to add more accessibility features for players then that is great. But that is not what this suggestion is being presented as, nor is it what I'm opposing.

But that’s exactly what it is. Several participants in this conversation have, for instance, in the overland thread lamented a potential increase in difficulty making the game less accessible. For instance, one person—active in this conversation—voted their elderly father’s disabilities and love of this game as part of the reason a harder overland would be rendering the game inaccessible.

The original post never mentioned a thing about this being an accessibility feature, nor has that been the focus of the conversation until it was brought up several pages into the discussion. Overland difficulty has nothing to do with voice chat or this thread.

sans-culottes wrote: »

That you and Vox don’t like it is fine, but don’t throw up various arguments and get upset when people who’ve experienced what you’re hypothesizing draw on their experiences to challenge misconceptions.

What arguments have I thrown up? What misconceptions do I have?

I asked some questions, raised some concerns, and have concluded that I personally do not think we need this feature on PC. That should have been the end of it but instead we keep being argued with and told our opinions are wrong, all by those that won't be affected one way or the other by what happens on a platform that they do not play.

I play on PC and I do not want this feature added, and my opinion is not going to change. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

This is the first I've heard about any accessibility benefits with this feature. If ZoS wants to add more accessibility features for players then that is great. But that is not what this suggestion is being presented as, nor is it what I'm opposing.

But that’s exactly what it is. Several participants in this conversation have, for instance, in the overland thread lamented a potential increase in difficulty making the game less accessible. For instance, one person—active in this conversation—voted their elderly father’s disabilities and love of this game as part of the reason a harder overland would be rendering the game inaccessible.

The original post never mentioned a thing about this being an accessibility feature, nor has that been the focus of the conversation until it was brought up several pages into the discussion. Overland difficulty has nothing to do with voice chat or this thread.

sans-culottes wrote: »

That you and Vox don’t like it is fine, but don’t throw up various arguments and get upset when people who’ve experienced what you’re hypothesizing draw on their experiences to challenge misconceptions.

What arguments have I thrown up? What misconceptions do I have?

I asked some questions, raised some concerns, and have concluded that I personally do not think we need this feature on PC. That should have been the end of it but instead we keep being argued with and told our opinions are wrong, all by those that won't be affected one way or the other by what happens on a platform that they do not play.

No offense, but you’ve offered lots of examples of ways you fear this could be abused and demonstrated that you aren’t familiar with how things implemented in the same game on a separate platform work.

If people responding to hypotheticals with real-world examples feels threatening to you, then I will say it again: I encourage you to recognize that people can have experiences that are not the same as yours, especially when those things being responded to are hypothetical or otherwise mistaken presuppositions. You can also always stop participating in the conversation if it’s causing you angst.

I’d also encourage you to recognize that this isn’t attacking anyone but instead pointing to examples in the real world. That’s just being reasonable. What’s not reasonable is offering an opinion from a place of not knowing and getting upset that those who’ve experienced something, and therefore come from a place of knowing, have input, too.

Trying to silence people because you feel platform differences render such communication impossible is a shame. I’d encourage you to also recognize that having a different experience and explaining how and why this works to alleviate the various concerns raised is a valuable way to have a discussion. This is especially obvious given that most of the PC-only participants in this discussion have demonstrated an unawareness of how these various features have already been implemented.

Once again, this isn’t “forcing” anything, nor is it attempting to silence anyone. It is, however, responding to hypothetical scenarios with examples based on experiences people have had.

SilverBride · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

@sans-culottes I edited my post to include this. "I play on PC and I do not want this feature added, and my opinion is not going to change. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that."

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

SilverBride wrote: »

@sans-culottes I edited my post to include this. "I play on PC and I do not want this feature added, and my opinion is not going to change. So let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that."

Cool! Yes, we don’t agree—frequently! And that’s fine. I don’t think it’s going to be implemented anyway, so I think this has been more of a thought experiment.

Maitsukas · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I don't want to hear slurs, loud music, smoke alarm empty battery beeps, etc. through other players' mics while I'm walking around the towns in the game. Discord is good enough for me, as it is for many other players .

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

Maitsukas wrote: »

I don't want to hear slurs, loud music, smoke alarm empty battery beeps, etc. through other players' mics while I'm walking around the towns in the game. Discord is good enough for me, as it is for many other players .

To be clear, the console version of this doesn’t force you to listen to any of these. It is objectively “opt-in,” and it’s structured such that you’d immediately recognize the functions. The layout is such that you may join and leave a number of channels. You may also mute/block/report persons.

This concern, at least, can be allayed by virtue of the current, real, existing system on the console versions and how it requires you to join/leave a channel—multiple channels, none of which require you to listen to strangers hanging out in Auridon, talking as they do in the public Discord channels for this game.

majulook · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Based on what is is posted in chat I say NO.

All the Carry Ads, Guild Ads, WTS Ads, along with the just plain obnoxious things posted in chat. I do not want it in my ears as well.

Maybe a only Group voice with a listen only setting, would be OK as you would have a listing of participants.

LalMirchi · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

Let's hope this suggestion never sees the light of day, 3-rd parties like Discord fulfill this functionality very well for the interested participants.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

majulook wrote: »

Based on what is is posted in chat I say NO.

All the Carry Ads, Guild Ads, WTS Ads, along with the just plain obnoxious things posted in chat. I do not want it in my ears as well.

Maybe a only Group voice with a listen only setting, would be OK as you would have a listing of participants.

Please see the screenshot I provided as this isn’t how things are in the real, existing implementation of this on consoles.

JemadarofCaerSalis · March 7

Other (please describe your thoughts)

HatchetHaro wrote: »

It'd be super nice to explain mechanics and make callouts using voice in random dungeons with pugs without having to invite them to random Discord servers and expect them to be able and willing to copy the invite link from chat.

This is pretty much why I don't want voice chat, even if optional, because I would hate to see more things like this happening.

It isn't about me needing to speak, it is about not wanting to run the risk of being kicked because I don't want to listen to other people speaking, and don't want to turn on the voice chat.

Sure, people can say 'it won't happen!' but, there is always that possiblity, and once the voice chat is implemented, then there is nothing anyone else can do if the things people who don't want voice chat fear might happen do happen. I would just have more content that I am locked out of because I don't want to have voice chat on.

VoxAdActa · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Finally, on page six, someone actually provided an actual accessibility issue that this feature could address and that Discord does not (or, at least, not easily). A real problem that this suggestion could solve was finally presented.

Oddly, you can see how my opinion immediately softened.

Also, once it was explained to me that your statement about how all three types of vc had to be bundled together was a serious exaggeration (at best), and that the channels can be used individually, see how my position softened yet again.

I still have serious concerns, many of which haven't been addressed. But now the question has become "how would we address these concerns," and the only answer you have is "these concerns don't exist at all on console [ed: which is dubious and unverifiable], so they can't possibly ever exist on PC [including the ones that could only occur on PC and that consoles don't have to deal with]." That's not convincing or persuasive, for a wide variety of reasons I've already explained.

Stamicka came here to discuss the issue, and they starkly show the difference between people who want to "discuss" and people who want to push/argue. It took a short few posts, with specifics, correct information about how the system currently works, and direct engagement with the potential problems and how they might be remediated, to take me from "Hard No" to "Maybe." When we got into actual, provable details and a discussion of how potential issues might be resolved, notice how even strong opinions began to shift.

As opposed to vagueness, incorrect information in response to a direct question (or information framed in such a way as to lead me to an incorrect conclusion), and utopian denials that there are any problems at all or that any problems might ever appear.

EVERY new feature brings problems, some predictable, some unpredictable, so saying "No problems! None at all! I've never seen or heard of a single problem! So they can't happen!" automatically makes me suspicious of both the feature and the motives for advocating on behalf of the feature. And if that isn't what you're trying to get across, the number of people who have interpreted it that way tells me this is an issue with communication styles.

Elvenheart · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

At first, I didn’t really care because I knew it was a feature I would not use, but if others wanted it that’s fine. But after reading some of the posts and getting to one where someone mentioned if this feature was built into the game, we might be pressured by other people to use it in certain situations, that made me realize my vote would be No.

said no one ever · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

[snip] OP has not dog in the fight as they dont play pc but on console.

[snip]
[edited for trolling and baiting]

Stamicka · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

I think the word accessibility when used in the context of gaming goes beyond people who may need accommodations. It usually refers to the barriers that are present that prevent people from getting their foot in the door or accessing content. This is also how I've seen ZOS use the word.

So something like a knowledge gap (which ESO has) would be considered an accessibility issue, because the knowledge needed to get one's foot in the door of endgame content is not easily found within the game which creates a barrier. Even a steep price tag on something would be considered an accessibility issue. Addressing accessibility issues often helps those who need accommodations AND those who don't through the "Curb Cut Effect". At the end of the day accessibility is about getting people (of all abilities and backgrounds) into the game with as much ease as possible.

So thinking of accessibility like this, having to download Discord, make an account, and join a server are accessibility issues themselves. Those are all extra unneeded barriers that prevent people, especially pug groups from easily communicating via voice chat. Having built in voice chat support removes those unnecessary barriers to voice communication.

majulook · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Based on what is is posted in chat I say NO.

All the Carry Ads, Guild Ads, WTS Ads, along with the just plain obnoxious things posted in chat. I do not want it in my ears as well.

Maybe a only Group voice with a listen only setting, would be OK as you would have a listing of participants.

Please see the screenshot I provided as this isn’t how things are in the real, existing implementation of this on consoles.

That is how it is on consoles. That is how the Sony and Microsoft wanted it setup, as it is a core part of their console by default. ZOS may or may not follow that implementation. Look at how ZOS did Account Wide Achievements, and the way the grouping tool works. The only VC that I would like is for groups and nothing else.

Also the OP was not only asking about Proximity Voice Chat. Hence my response.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

majulook wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

Based on what is is posted in chat I say NO.

All the Carry Ads, Guild Ads, WTS Ads, along with the just plain obnoxious things posted in chat. I do not want it in my ears as well.

Maybe a only Group voice with a listen only setting, would be OK as you would have a listing of participants.

Please see the screenshot I provided as this isn’t how things are in the real, existing implementation of this on consoles.

That is how it is on consoles. That is how the Sony and Microsoft wanted it setup, as it is a core part of their console by default. ZOS may or may not follow that implementation. Look at how ZOS did Account Wide Achievements, and the way the grouping tool works. The only VC that I would like is for groups and nothing else.

Also the OP was not only asking about Proximity Voice Chat. Hence my response.

I think we’ve been talking past each other. It’s just part of the larger suite of voice chat resources. And since ZOS is owned by Microsoft, I’m not sure why this would be seen as something onerous. The point is to show you what this thing that actually exists is like so you can have a reference point.

I’m not sure what you meant by a “core part of their console.” Microphones and voice chat tools are commonplace. In case you’re unclear, this is part of the in-game interface and not something part of these devices.

spartaxoxo · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Many people don't want those things because of anxiety disorders (joining discord or other social media) or because of things like injuries or birth defects that make those issues difficult. I explicitly gave you the example of anxiety, which you ignored. Beyond that in video games, accessibility is used to refer to people who have issues that prevent them from play, even when those things aren't related to a disability. This is because they enable both groups to enjoy the game.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Also, once it was explained to me that your statement about how all three types of vc had to be bundled together was a serious exaggeration (at best), and that the channels can be used individually, see how my position softened yet again.

I broke down the chat channels and provided a picture and stated that multiple times before it was accepted. The difference is that those of us who came in as console users were immediately claimed to have different motives than clearing up misinformation and that the word optional was being used as way to silence "legitimate" criticism. It was not. We had actual experience with the mechanics of the feature and how they created those tools to address concerns. I'm glad that different ways of wording it finally broke through.

To very clear these concerns are valid

How will it handle add-ons?
It will take up too much resources to implement for too little benefit
It may decrease the number of text chat based pugs available.
Area chat would be full of a bunch of people coughing, playing music, etc.
I just plain don't like it and don't want it
ETA: What about compatibility issues with various programs, drivers, etc?

These concerns are understandable but not true to how ZOS has implemented the feature

Toxicity would be rampant.
It would not be optional.
You wouldn't be able to turn it off properly only mute certain people
It's easy to troll a bunch of people
It would replace discord
It serves the same purpose as discord and offers no benefits outside of those provided by discord.
ETA: It's not moderated.

VoxAdActa · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Many people don't want to those things because of anxiety disorders (joining discord or other social media) or because of things like injuries or birth defects that make those issues difficult. I explicitly gave you the example of anxiety, which you claimed wasn't a thing. Beyond that in video games, accessibility is used to refer to people who have issues that prevent them from play, even when those things aren't related to a disability. This is because they enable both groups to enjoy the game.

Anxiety disorders that make someone not want to talk to a small, vetted group of trusted individuals but that don't affect talking to random strangers in PUGs or hanging around the crafting tables? That's a remarkably specific form of anxiety. Do you have any scientific papers I can read on this variety of anxiety disorder?

What injury or birth defect allows a person to play a complicated MMO but prevents them from downloading any app other than that MMO? Are there any papers on these disorders?

spartaxoxo · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Anxiety disorders that make someone not want to talk to a small, vetted group of trusted individuals but that don't affect talking to random strangers in PUGs or hanging around the crafting tables? That's a remarkably specific form of anxiety. Do you have any scientific papers I can read on this variety of anxiety disorder?

What injury or birth defect allows a person to play a complicated MMO but prevents them from downloading any app other than that MMO? Are there any papers on these disorders?

Again. It's an actual, real example from another user.

She was an older woman that had an anxiety disorder. It made her very stressed out to join discord or other social media groups and she mostly wanted to play the game alone. However, if she saw someone in need of help, she still wanted to help. She would then have to log out because she had to figure out how to tell them she couldn't join their discord. She expressed that she was able to listen to other people's voices but could not speak on mic. In addition to her anxiety disorder, she also didn't want her gender identity or age exposed by using the mic, further complicating things.

She asked for advice on how to find an excuse on how to tell people she didn't want to join their discord. She could listen to this person but not talk or join social media. While she eventually resolved to making herself very uncomfortable so she could tell that person the truth, and so her specific issue was handled. It's not a situation she'd find herself in on console.

The game's native voice chat means that she could listen to this person and not talk on mic and not join social media. It's very common thing here because having a native chat channel means that handing out discords is abnormal here beyond guild discords. And it also means you can just say "no mic but I can hear," and not have to worry about it.

For those with anxiety issues that make it easier for them to listen than to speak in voice, a native chat channel and a social norm that makes such an issue run of the mill makes it easier for them to interact with the game.

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Many people don't want to those things because of anxiety disorders (joining discord or other social media) or because of things like injuries or birth defects that make those issues difficult. I explicitly gave you the example of anxiety, which you claimed wasn't a thing. Beyond that in video games, accessibility is used to refer to people who have issues that prevent them from play, even when those things aren't related to a disability. This is because they enable both groups to enjoy the game.

Anxiety disorders that make someone not want to talk to a small, vetted group of trusted individuals but that don't affect talking to random strangers in PUGs or hanging around the crafting tables? That's a remarkably specific form of anxiety. Do you have any scientific papers I can read on this variety of anxiety disorder?

It’s called social anxiety disorder. Many persons suffering from this condition would find the idea of joining a voice chat very difficult. I encourage you to read about it on UpToDate (https://www.uptodate.com/contents/social-anxiety-disorder-in-adults-epidemiology-clinical-features-assessment-and-diagnosis), if you have access to academic and/or medical resources. Belittling others’ experiences of their disabilities is not only unhelpful but unkind.

The example cited is a red herring because, as has been explained, one need not be part of these channels in the first place.

tomofhyrule · March 7

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

If the former, then it should be no problem to put it in PC and it's odd that it's not already. Which is why I think it's the latter. And in that case, the ask isn't "ZOS, please activate proxy chat on PC," it's more of a "ZOS, please make a whole voice server to enable this feature that consoles have natively but that doesn't exist on PCs unless PC downloads a separate piece of software and server for it."

Which is exactly why I think ZOS's stance is "PC already has Discord." It's not laziness, it's the fact that XBox/PS ships with XBox/PS voice chat support provided by the console itself, and games only need to activate that native system. PC, however, doesn't have a native gaming chat service, which is why people went to various things like Discord/Teamspeak/etc. so there's nothing for ESO to point to without ZOS making a whole voice service from scratch.

I think it's naïve to assume that "oh, it's like this on Console so it would 100% be exactly the same on PC." I'm sure that there are some pretty big hardware and software differences between XBox/PS and whatever machine PC players have (and that has a lot of variance as well).

Which again leads to the biggest question: is it worth ZOS's time to code (and get server space for) a brand new Voice Chat system that will seriously increase the size of the game on PC and the bandwidth required, when many of the playerbase would not even use that feature since they'd prefer to stick with what they already have established?

sans-culottes · March 7

Yes, ESO should have an opt-in proximity voice chat (Off by default)

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

If the former, then it should be no problem to put it in PC and it's odd that it's not already. Which is why I think it's the latter. And in that case, the ask isn't "ZOS, please activate proxy chat on PC," it's more of a "ZOS, please make a whole voice server to enable this feature that consoles have natively but that doesn't exist on PCs unless PC downloads a separate piece of software and server for it."

Which is exactly why I think ZOS's stance is "PC already has Discord." It's not laziness, it's the fact that XBox/PS ships with XBox/PS voice chat support provided by the console itself, and games only need to activate that native system. PC, however, doesn't have a native gaming chat service, which is why people went to various things like Discord/Teamspeak/etc. so there's nothing for ESO to point to without ZOS making a whole voice service from scratch.

I think it's naïve to assume that "oh, it's like this on Console so it would 100% be exactly the same on PC." I'm sure that there are some pretty big hardware and software differences between XBox/PS and whatever machine PC players have (and that has a lot of variance as well).

Which again leads to the biggest question: is it worth ZOS's time to code (and get server space for) a brand new Voice Chat system that will seriously increase the size of the game on PC and the bandwidth required, when many of the playerbase would not even use that feature since they'd prefer to stick with what they already have established?

As has been said many times, it is native to the console versions of ESO. This is separate from, say, the PSN voice chat.

said no one ever · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

I would rather be banned than support voice chat on pc in any form whatsoever.

tomofhyrule · March 7

sans-culottes wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A logistical question that still hasn't really been answered: Is ESO's chat on console a feature added by ZOS to ESO, or is it ZOS pointing to MS/Sony's native voice chat capability?

If the former, then it should be no problem to put it in PC and it's odd that it's not already. Which is why I think it's the latter. And in that case, the ask isn't "ZOS, please activate proxy chat on PC," it's more of a "ZOS, please make a whole voice server to enable this feature that consoles have natively but that doesn't exist on PCs unless PC downloads a separate piece of software and server for it."

Which is exactly why I think ZOS's stance is "PC already has Discord." It's not laziness, it's the fact that XBox/PS ships with XBox/PS voice chat support provided by the console itself, and games only need to activate that native system. PC, however, doesn't have a native gaming chat service, which is why people went to various things like Discord/Teamspeak/etc. so there's nothing for ESO to point to without ZOS making a whole voice service from scratch.

I think it's naïve to assume that "oh, it's like this on Console so it would 100% be exactly the same on PC." I'm sure that there are some pretty big hardware and software differences between XBox/PS and whatever machine PC players have (and that has a lot of variance as well).

Which again leads to the biggest question: is it worth ZOS's time to code (and get server space for) a brand new Voice Chat system that will seriously increase the size of the game on PC and the bandwidth required, when many of the playerbase would not even use that feature since they'd prefer to stick with what they already have established?

As has been said many times, it is native to the console versions of ESO. This is separate from, say, the PSN voice chat.

But, as I'm asking, is ESO chat on console a thing that ZOS made and put into the game, or does it work because ESO is programmed to use PSN's chat tools?

As in, if someone deactivated PSN chat tools completely and removed the capability to use PSN chat, would ESO's voice chat still function?

VoxAdActa · March 7

No, ESO should not have a proximity voice chat feature

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

For six pages, one throwaway argument in favor has been "it's for accessibility" (usually tucked inside a whole list of other "but it's just cool" arguments), but what specific "accessibility" that wasn't already available on PC was never specified, in spite of multiple attempts to suss it out, other than "people who don't want to download Discord and who don't want to type," which is not a protected class in need of accommodations (and which also really annoys me, as a member of a protected class who needs accommodations, because it helps water down and make "accessibility" so loose as to be nearly meaningless, which is already a widespread problem on social media).

Many people don't want to those things because of anxiety disorders (joining discord or other social media) or because of things like injuries or birth defects that make those issues difficult. I explicitly gave you the example of anxiety, which you claimed wasn't a thing. Beyond that in video games, accessibility is used to refer to people who have issues that prevent them from play, even when those things aren't related to a disability. This is because they enable both groups to enjoy the game.

Anxiety disorders that make someone not want to talk to a small, vetted group of trusted individuals but that don't affect talking to random strangers in PUGs or hanging around the crafting tables? That's a remarkably specific form of anxiety. Do you have any scientific papers I can read on this variety of anxiety disorder?

It’s called social anxiety disorder. Many persons suffering from this condition would find the idea of joining a voice chat very difficult. I encourage you to read about it on UpToDate (https://www.uptodate.com/contents/social-anxiety-disorder-in-adults-epidemiology-clinical-features-assessment-and-diagnosis), if you have access to academic and/or medical resources. Belittling others’ experiences of their disabilities is not only unhelpful but unkind.

The example cited is a red herring because, as has been explained, one need not be part of these channels in the first place.

I've never heard of a variety of Social Anxiety Disorder that only triggers with friends but doesn't trigger with strangers. Normally it's the other way around, or both. But you're claiming there's a version that allows a person to interact with strangers in uncontrolled circumstances but prevents interaction with vetted individuals under controlled circumstances? This is why I asked for a paper. I've never heard of this before.

Should ESO on PC have an *optional* proximity voice chat?

Should ESO on PC have an optional proximity voice chat?