spartaxoxo wrote: »

Console is the place the feature exists. So, when we talk about hypothetical vs actual implementation by ZOS, the console is the only source. If you say it's going to cause xyz issue, then people can tell you whether or not that is correct.

Ok, so tell me what bugs this will cause. What driver compatibility issues will we have to worry about? How will it interact with my firewall? My antivirus? My VPN? My audio mixing software? My media player software?

Oh, console doesn't have to worry about any of that. So console's experience is entirely inapplicable to the performance and implementation requirements for this feature. This feature which solves no problems, and which has already been integrated into Discord already.

Because we're discussing an existing feature being added to a different version of the game.

No, we're not "discussing," you're advocating. There's a difference. A discussion wouldn't entail ignoring most of the things I talk about in favor of focusing only on the points one considers to be the weakest.

You may not care about console but it remains relevant to this conversation.

No, it's not. I cannot make that clearer. Console is an entirely different technical environment and an entirely different social environment. For example, can you give me any idea for how addons will be affected by this? What will addons allow it to do? Will there be addons that allow for automated voice advertising for guilds or carries or even IRL gold traders? That's not something console has to think about at all. Add it to the pile of things that make "discussion" of the console environment irrelevant to the PC environment.

I am also on console and am not going to pretend to be on PC.

So why do you care so much? You've typed hundreds, if not thousands, of words in this thread advocating for a feature whose consequences you'll never have to experience and whose lack you'll never have to suffer.

None. It's a setting in the menu.

So I will have to navigate menus to turn it on and off, to activate or deactivate push-to-talk, to change the volume independently of the main game volume, to mute my mic, and to mute my headphones (can they even be muted individually? I kind of doubt it, but I could be wrong).

There are pros and cons to the idea. The factual pros are people who accessibility options

What accessibility options? Or, more specifically, what accessibility options that are not currently available already in the current setup? Once again, a solution in search of a problem.

easier communication in pugs

Which is the last place any adult wants unrestricted voice communication, and the first place it will be used for toxicity and abuse. Text is already used by bad actors to belittle, insult, and yell at people over basically nothing; you want us to hear that in our ears, too?

and helping people who are uncomfortable with discord for a variety of reasons.

I'm not entirely sure you know enough about what Discord is to be making this claim. Uncomfortable with downloading an app? Uncomfortable with joining their guild's voice channel? But who are also fine with talking to every stranger in their general proximity? And who also need accessibility support, but won't use the existing, safe, moderated, tested, and vetted accessibility support? How many people do you think this may be?

These benefits may not apply to you but they nevertheless exist.

I'm not sure they do.

I think they go by number of reports considering they still need us to submit videos of certain things. But that's a question for Zeni as I am not privvy to the inner workings of their moderation. I just know that people have been actioned for voice chat on console. So, moderation must exist. And I also know that reporting it is no different to reporting text chat.

That's not true at all. Text chat reports have a screenshot and a log of the text conversation, with timestamps and everything. If someone whispers a sexually derogatory slur to me, and I report it, the whole conversation is there in the report.

If someone catcalls me as I walk by the wayshrine and I'm the only person who reports it, what then? There's no log. There's no proof. Unless ZOS is recording it, which I've been told by other proximity vc advocates that they absolutely don't. But do they? This is an important question. In Discord, I can record it, and can even save the last few seconds of a conversation that's already happened. Will my media software let me record native proximity chat? And can ZOS's support open audio files? What formats do they support? Those are more questions that console players can't answer about this feature.

Estin wrote: »

I will never understand why some players are so against optional features.

Fortunately, there's a whole thread full of comments that thoroughly explain exactly why.

The biggest benefit with voice chat is with pugs that need it. No, not your daily randoms or pledges. Not your GF normal trial. Specifically vet/hm content. And no, if someone makes it a requirement in a GF pug, that doesn't mean you have to hop in and start talking with other players. It would be for the lead to make necessary call outs so the group doesn't constantly wipe. You can still talk with text and listen to what a lead has to say. Chat callouts are impossible to see if you don't have chat bubbles enabled, and even then, they're still hard to see. Plus the player doing the callout has to stop playing to type it out.

So vet HM pugs. This will benefit people who want to do vet HM pugs. Quite a large and underserved population, I'm sure.

There's certainly nothing wrong or harmful about allowing players to use voice in at least groups.

Agreed, but this thread, as specified in the title, is about proximity voice chat, not group voice chat. I have been told by an expert that we cannot have the latter without also having the former.

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Really, the poll and question are just for fun.

I haven't found anything fun about being told that we are wrong for not wanting this feature.

By opposing this you are opposing improved accessibility for the deaf/hard of hearing.

It doesn’t make sense to me why anyone would oppose something that has 0 drawbacks to them, but makes a world of a difference for someone else.

This is the first I've heard about any accessibility benefits with this feature. If ZoS wants to add more accessibility features for players then that is great. But that is not what this suggestion is being presented as, nor is it what I'm opposing.

Most people wouldn’t think of this because they’ve never had to use it. The post in general is asking about adding voice chat to PC. So now you know that this would have the added benefit of helping people who have trouble hearing (as backwards as it sounds). Do you still oppose it?

I say this as someone who never thought they would have to rely on this type of feature. If console didn’t have the speech to text options like it does (and discord STILL lacks) then I would have had to quit gaming with friends.

People aren’t able to type raid calls or other group communications when they’re busy engaging in combat. ESO’s built in speech to text feature on console is actually pretty fast and very accurate. It’s good enough to allow someone who can’t hear calls to better engage in group content.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

I will never understand why some players are so against optional features.

Fortunately, there's a whole thread full of comments that thoroughly explain exactly why.

A thread full of what if scenarios from players who would never turn it on if available. Certainly nothing that would ever be common place, especially from a community that constantly touts at how nice and respectful the player base is. Again, as stated, leave it turned off if you don't want to participate. You cannot be affected by any of the what if scenarios if you have it turned off.

So vet HM pugs. This will benefit people who want to do vet HM pugs. Quite a large and underserved population, I'm sure.

So features should only be introduced to areas of the game that have a booming playerbase? So does this mean no more housing/trial/pvp updates? Don't be rude. It will benefit everyone who decides to use it. HM pugs will just have the biggest benefit.

Agreed, but this thread, as specified in the title, is about proximity voice chat, not group voice chat. I have been told by an expert that we cannot have the latter without also having the former.

Fortunately, the poll had an option for Other, which you can see I chose. This is something that I would love to have for at least groups as I described with my first post.

Estin wrote: »

A thread full of what if scenarios from players who would never turn it on if available.

So you ignored them because they were from people whose opinions don't matter? Because quite a few of them were about things that will happen and things that could happen, many of which would affect people who have turned the "optional" content off. But it's your right to ignore people you don't wish to engage with, and I will respect that by returning the favor.

Stamicka wrote: »

Idk why the poll is asking about proximity chat specifically, but I’m saying PC should have voice chat as a whole exactly like console does.

And that's where we disagree. I can't think of any non-technical objections to native guild support, and only a few objections to native group support. If we could have those by themselves, I wouldn't be nearly as invested in this, assuming all the technical questions I asked in a previous post could be addressed. I definitely don't want the "all or nothing" console version.

I don’t see any harm in letting people who have trouble hearing feel less isolated by allowing them to read what’s being said in the voice chats around them though.

My experience is that almost nothing is typed in /say, unless one is attending an RP event (which, granted, would be a valid use of the feature). And I'm sure nobody would be thrilled with zone-wide voice chat (but consoles don't have it, so we couldn't discuss it anyway).

Can speech-to-text convert the sound of a chicken sandwich being loudly consumed, or the sound of dogs barking, or the lyrics of the loud death metal playing in the background? Those all strike me as being the most common things that would be transmitted through proximity chat. But that may be my own bias.

I suppose I'm most skeptical that the addition of proximity voice chat will create a new chat culture where one did not previously exist. What I believe it will do is, at best, allow us to hear random domestic arguments, and at worst, will be used to enable toxicity, scammers, and other bad actors, many of which do not exist on console because it's much harder to do things like automate bots and make addons for console.

Discord’s support for speech to text is abysmal. You have to ask a moderator of a server to invite a speech to text bot to the server and then the text appears in a dedicated channel for the bot. There’s sooo many issues with that and it would be way better if ESO on PC had the same accessibility options console does.

That's the best, most persuasive argument in this entire six-page thread. And I agree, if it could be done on a guild or group level without also having to waste technical and mental bandwidth dealing with the proximity level.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

having to actually listen to hecklers with our ears would probably make such events less common.

In that case, I'd just mute the people I didn't want to hear. Maybe a whitelist system (like a group-only proximity chat) would work better for the purpose of hearing others. I don't really know at this point.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

having to actually listen to hecklers with our ears would probably make such events less common.

In that case, I'd just mute the people I didn't want to hear. Maybe a whitelist system (like a group-only proximity chat) would work better for the purpose of hearing others. I don't really know at this point.

There's a whole slew of issues with trying to ignore-list specific people in proximity chat. Not even counting the hard cap of 100 people on the ignore list (which can fill up surprisingly quickly), there's no directionality to the voice chat, nor is there any indication of the player/character name who's speaking, so even finding the person to ignore them would be a serious challenge. A challenge that can be made even harder, should someone be in the mind to make it harder, by abusing LOS or obscure nearby hidey-spots.

Group/Guild voice chat is something I'm softening on, but proximity chat just gets worse and worse the more I actually sit here and think about it.

For example: How would we even report people for TOS-breaking behavior in proximity chat? We can't even tell who's speaking unless they're all by themselves...

It'd be super nice to explain mechanics and make callouts using voice in random dungeons with pugs without having to invite them to random Discord servers and expect them to be able and willing to copy the invite link from chat.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

My experience is that almost nothing is typed in /say, unless one is attending an RP event (which, granted, would be a valid use of the feature). And I'm sure nobody would be thrilled with zone-wide voice chat (but consoles don't have it, so we couldn't discuss it anyway).

Can speech-to-text convert the sound of a chicken sandwich being loudly consumed, or the sound of dogs barking, or the lyrics of the loud death metal playing in the background? Those all strike me as being the most common things that would be transmitted through proximity chat. But that may be my own bias.

I suppose I'm most skeptical that the addition of proximity voice chat will create a new chat culture where one did not previously exist. What I believe it will do is, at best, allow us to hear random domestic arguments, and at worst, will be used to enable toxicity, scammers, and other bad actors, many of which do not exist on console because it's much harder to do things like automate bots and make addons for console.

Proximity chat could actually have a lot of use cases for PvP. I mean imagine you’re ungrouped and you want to tell someone around you (if they happen to be in area chat) to watch out for a bomb or a ganker or whatever it is. Or imagine wanting to communicate with someone that is sieging a keep with you, but you’re ungrouped. Proximity chat would be very useful in those situations because it’s hard to type in combat.

Outside of PvP I mean, I know world bosses and overland content are easy, but what if ungrouped players near each other wanted to communicate a mechanic or some other piece of information quickly?

Now those situations sound very ideal… and you’re right that a lot of the time area chat is just people blaring music, coughing, or eating, but that doesn’t negate all the scenarios in which it CAN be useful. That’s a pessimistic view of it.

In regards to a new chat culture, I get where you’re coming from. Anyone who’s been to The Rift on console with voice chat on knows just how annoying area chat can get. The thing is though, I’m advocating for opt in voice chat that’s off by default. So if someone is experiencing proximity chat, they’ve literally opted into it when they didn’t have to and they can opt out at any time. So you will not experience a new chat culture unless you willingly tune into area chat.

I can tell you right now that proximity voice chat isn’t all bad and I’ve personally had funny/wholesome experiences with it. Sometimes someone will just ride up to you and ask you where you got your mount from or if you can help them with something.

Estin wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing that can negatively affect a player who decides not to hear proximity voice chat. I myself would only intend to use it for groups. I can't think of any possible way that I would be negatively affected by leaving proximity turned off in overland.

I actually currently only use it for groups and guilds myself. I turned the area channel off. I used to do overland more often but because it's so easy, I find myself using it less and less. So, there wasn't as much reason to have it on anymore. The game remembers this setting and I have had area chat off for two years now.

One thing I love about voice chat that isn't true of text chat on console is that I can turn off individual chat channels. So unlike having to listen to jerks in some or say chat if I want to talk to guildmates, I can join guild/group chat and keep area off.

Stamicka wrote: »

Proximity chat could actually have a lot of use cases for PvP. I mean imagine you’re ungrouped and you want to tell someone around you (if they happen to be in area chat) to watch out for a bomb or a ganker or whatever it is. Or imagine wanting to communicate with someone that is sieging a keep with you, but you’re ungrouped. Proximity chat would be very useful in those situations because it’s hard to type in combat.

Outside of PvP I mean, I know world bosses and overland content are easy, but what if ungrouped players near each other wanted to communicate a mechanic or some other piece of information quickly?

Now those situations sound very ideal… and you’re right that a lot of the time area chat is just people blaring music, coughing, or eating, but that doesn’t negate all the scenarios in which it CAN be useful. That’s a pessimistic view of it.

In regards to a new chat culture, I get where you’re coming from. Anyone who’s been to The Rift on console with voice chat on knows just how annoying area chat can get. The thing is though, I’m advocating for opt in voice chat that’s off by default. So if someone is experiencing proximity chat, they’ve literally opted into it when they didn’t have to and they can opt out at any time. So you will not experience a new chat culture unless you willingly tune into area chat.

I can tell you right now that proximity voice chat isn’t all bad and I’ve personally had funny/wholesome experiences with it. Sometimes someone will just ride up to you and ask you where you got your mount from or if you can help them with something.

I admit you have a much more positive view of the general ESO community than I do. My experiences with random text chat have mostly ranged from unpleasant to repulsive, with a few brighter spots here and there, which is definitely coloring my opinion.

If guild, group, and proximity can be toggled individually, I wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with the idea. I'd still have objections to proximity but, with that said, so few people would be using it that it may not even be worth the effort for bad actors to abuse. But I've been told by a source that claims to be authoritative that it's all or nothing, and we can't have guild/group without also having proximity. So anyone who wants to listen to their group also has to consent to listening to every random person nearby.

I think a thread specifically to discuss the usefulness and feasibility of specifically guild and/or group voice chat may be a good idea. Allowing those things without forcing proximity in alongside them is something I can get behind, if only for the accessibility issues you've brought up. But with this thread being titled "should eso have proximity chat?", a discussion of other options is likely to get lost or derailed.

Though I'm not sure why we've been funneled into the restriction of "we can only talk about what console currently does and nothing else."

VoxAdActa wrote: »

None of us know how "just use the console thing" will work with any of those considerations. The devs might, but they also have said they really don't want to mess with it since Discord exists and has solved those problems on its own platform.

True. Which is why there's no point in asking it to a player.

I'm not doing any of that on my headset itself. What I "use to do those things" are a third-party mixer with an equalizer, a third-party media player app, and occasionally Razer Synapse (when I absolutely have to). Discord controls the rest. The only thing my headset does is add another volume knob (all the way up and everything else adjusts around it) and turn on/off. Everything else is done through software.

I don't know how those would work but I've never had an issue using such things in this game or on PC games.

Yes, someone else brought that up, for the first time in six pages, and it's worth discussing.

I actually brought up a couple of different accessibility issue earlier. People who don't want to type and people who get anxiety about being in voice chat. They don't have to download discord and can just say "sorry no mic" and will still be able to listen but not talk.

In addition, people who have trouble typing can communicate directly.

It's only been solved for some players but not everyone. Again, not everyone is comfortable using a third party app and you can Google that yourself and see complaints about discord on this site. You being comfortable with Discord doesn't mean everyone is.

No, they're usually moderated more attentively, without AI, and with my ability to record and play back the offending behavior. Furthermore, the only people I have to worry about are people that I, personally, have vetted and gotten to know well enough to join a voice chat with them. They are not a collection of random strangers in clown suits at a wayshrine.

You'd be choosing to interact with those strangers. You can also restrict the native voice chat to guild/group.

Speaking as someone who needs more than one accessibility feature, those of us who need accessibility are among the most likely people to download and use third-party software. Because a lot of the time, we have to, often just to get through day-to-day tasks.

I am speaking from direct complaints made on this forum. Your situation isn't the same for everyone with accessibility needs. I'm happy you found a solution that works for you.

But you didn't answer any of the questions I asked about voice chat reporting.

Again, I'm not Zenimax. If you want to ask questions about how the chat works on the players end, then I can answer. If you want to ask questions about the inner workings of customer service, you'll have to ask ZOS.

VoxAdActa wrote: »

If guild, group, and proximity can be toggled individually, I wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with the idea. I'd still have objections to proximity but, with that said, so few people would be using it that it may not even be worth the effort for bad actors to abuse. But I've been told by a source that claims to be authoritative that it's all or nothing, and we can't have guild/group without also having proximity. So anyone who wants to listen to their group also has to consent to listening to every random person nearby.

No someone gave misinformation. The way in game voice chat works on console is through channels. “Area” is its own channel and “Group” is its own channel. Guilds also have their own channels. You can 100% choose to tune into your group channel, but not tune into the Area channel.

When you tune into a group voice channel you absolutely are not forced into the area channel, you can keep it off.

Thysbe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Thysbe wrote: »

Are you guys sure voice chat is even an ESO built-in feature and not a Standard console feature that is only activated by ESO?
This might be one of the main reasons it´s not available on PC.

Yes. XBOX and PSN both have their own voice chat channels. And then ESO has it's own custom voice chat.
It includes
Area Channel - you can chat with anyone in a small vicinity
(...)

My question was not abour the User Interface but who is actually providing the voice technology needed.

If ESO calls up services provided by PSN or has the technology coded by themselves (which I highly doubt) makes a huge difference when it comes to transferring it to PC. Consoles develop those features for a broad range of games and have the need, time and funds to invest heavily here.

Having voice proximity chat work needs a lot of technology behind the screen. You don´t have to develop those features by yourself ofc but licensing it will have a price tag. If even Discord can´t make Voice to text work decently to you really think a game development studio can?

So this is probabaly a major undertaking and not just an activation of a feature making the "waste of resources" point just more pressing.

ZOS developed these tools. I don't know too much about speech to text but another user posted in this thread that Zenimax's is actually much better than Discord's version.

You're right about the resources. I've said before and I'll say it again. While I think it would be nice for PC players to have, ZOS made the decision not to do this for PC because ultimately they felt it would be a waste of resources when third party programs already exist. For this reason, I don't think they'd actually add it.