Is it fair gameplay to use use Rush of Agony to pull players long distances and through objects?

Orbital78 · February 16

With Whitestrakes coming up I thought it would be nice to have some clarification, as to not risk being banned. This set is being commonly used in Cyrodiil to pull in odd ways, and I haven't seen an official response from ZoS. Is this a feature and acceptable use of the set, or does this enter the realm of exploiting and potential banning?

Asking for a friend who may or may not be planning out cheese sets for the large scale event. There was a recent post highlighting it along with other things: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673393/official-stream-team-member-exploiting-and-being-offensive-toward-viewers#latest - I asked there too but it is a mess of topics over there and thought it would be better to start a new thread for clarification.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

xylena_lazarow · February 16

Relevant: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671959/get-rid-of-rushing-agony-from-pvp-right-now-please/p1

Orbital78 · February 16

thanks, wow 7 pages and not one peep from ZoS.

Reverb · February 16

Nobody will get banned for using it. Devs made the decision to leave it the way it is despite a LOT of feedback about how broken it is. It’s not really fair play to pull people through walls and long distance but it’s fine by Zeni.

Major_Toughness · February 16

Orbital78 wrote: »

thanks, wow 7 pages and not one peep from ZoS.

Well yeah it's not Tales of Tribute.

spartaxoxo · February 16

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

thanks, wow 7 pages and not one peep from ZoS.

Well yeah it's not Tales of Tribute.

Tales of Tribute almost never gets ZOS comments, ever.

LadyGP · February 16

One thing I have noticed (as someone who runs Rush in a ball group and has also been the victim of many deaths from rush) is that the "lag" doesn't work well with rush.

What I mean by that is - and this is just my observations and what I think is happening - is that... with the uptick in lag the server and clients can become out of sync for a small window (usually when things hit the fan during big fights).

On my screen I see player A in X position on the map.
On their screen they are already passing through position X and moving away from it.
When I see them at position X that is when I go in for my pull.
They continue to move away from X on their screen (but I think the server is still thinking they are closer to position X than they really are)

As a result... they get pulled from a mile away.. sometimes even after going around a wall and way out of line of sight.

Before I get roasted.. yes I'm away they increased the radius from rush.. we all have been pulled and said "No way I was near that"... I've said this 100 times myself in the last few months.

There is definetly something off with rush since the changes were made. Yes, it's easier to avoid getting pulled now (when you're closer to it and can see it) but if you're passing through position X and then get crazy far away... you still get pulled in.

Thats just my 2 cents on why it's performing the way it is. I could be totally wrong on this but I'd say it's not performing as intended and it's not something "in the code" they can just tweak to make it work correctly. I think it's a client/server sync issue that is much harder to fix. Curious to see what others think.

katanagirl1 · February 16

Rush of Agony is so broken, I can’t believe it has not been addressed. They put a delay on the pull, but since there is no visual indication when you are going to be pulled, like an aoe circle, there is no way to avoid it. It’s way worse than Dark Convergence at its strongest.

YandereGirlfriend · February 16

LadyGP wrote: »

One thing I have noticed (as someone who runs Rush in a ball group and has also been the victim of many deaths from rush) is that the "lag" doesn't work well with rush.

What I mean by that is - and this is just my observations and what I think is happening - is that... with the uptick in lag the server and clients can become out of sync for a small window (usually when things hit the fan during big fights).

On my screen I see player A in X position on the map.
On their screen they are already passing through position X and moving away from it.
When I see them at position X that is when I go in for my pull.
They continue to move away from X on their screen (but I think the server is still thinking they are closer to position X than they really are)

As a result... they get pulled from a mile away.. sometimes even after going around a wall and way out of line of sight.

Before I get roasted.. yes I'm away they increased the radius from rush.. we all have been pulled and said "No way I was near that"... I've said this 100 times myself in the last few months.

There is definetly something off with rush since the changes were made. Yes, it's easier to avoid getting pulled now (when you're closer to it and can see it) but if you're passing through position X and then get crazy far away... you still get pulled in.

Thats just my 2 cents on why it's performing the way it is. I could be totally wrong on this but I'd say it's not performing as intended and it's not something "in the code" they can just tweak to make it work correctly. I think it's a client/server sync issue that is much harder to fix. Curious to see what others think.

Indeed.

Such nuance is often lost in the ill-informed brigading against the set, but, as you know, in heavy lag the set often isn't reliable even from the POV of the wearer.

Given that the entire pull damage sequence is very tightly coordinated and on a strict schedule, using the set and expecting a pull of targets that are visually within the radius at time T but instead getting a pull of a much smaller subset of those targets at time T+2, T+3, T+4 or even, in the heaviest of lag, simply not having a pull at all despite meeting the proc criteria, is actually less helpful for outputting damage than simply not wearing the set to begin with.

That said, basically all mechanics go out the window at that point and fights devolve into basically RNG of whose abilities are actually recognized and actioned by the server and do those actions happen to occur at advantageous or disadvantageous times for the parties in combat.

Also, to answer the OP: using the set with the intention of pulling people through walls and crashing them is definitely not intended behavior. And if you're using the set with Shade (which serves no purpose whatsoever other than to achieve such outcomes) then you know what you're doing and probably shouldn't expect to get away with it.

SeaGtGruff · February 16

If a set or skill is designed to do something, then it is okay to use it to do the thing it was designed to do.

That doesn't mean everyone needs to like the thing it does; personally, I strongly dislike it.

But if it's doing what it was designed to do, then it's okay to use it.

Note: It's also okay for players to give feedback about how much they dislike it, and why.

Avran_Sylt · February 16

If someone gets video evidence of it, I'd expect a ban if using the set to cross-faction bypass Cyrodiil objectives (EG: a DC member uses the set and shade to pull EP/AD members into a DC controlled base).

Using it to pull ballgroups out of keeps is... toeing the line IMO.

But using it to pull players through walls (without the intent to somehow glitch them into terrain, though I haven't really seen that at all, just speculation) or setup to knockback effects into water (see bridges), seems more of a lark IMO.

CatoUnchained · February 17

Nothing about RoA is fair. It's design is fundamentally unfair. Free pull sets should not exist in any game for any reason. It's really bad design.

Avran_Sylt · February 17

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Nothing about RoA is fair. It's design is fundamentally unfair. Free pull sets should not exist in any game for any reason. It's really bad design.

Root cause is more about undergeared players essentially becoming dead-man's switches against their own team via Vicious Death and RoA heavily helping facilitate a chain reaction. (wonder how nerfed VD would be if it had a cooldown between explosions).

Still a buggy set though (and should apply stun immunity), but the only reason pulls get a bad rap is because of VD.

Turtle_Bot · February 17

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Nothing about RoA is fair. It's design is fundamentally unfair. Free pull sets should not exist in any game for any reason. It's really bad design.

Root cause is more about undergeared players essentially becoming dead-man's switches against their own team via Vicious Death and RoA heavily helping facilitate a chain reaction. (wonder how nerfed VD would be if it had a cooldown between explosions).

Still a buggy set though (and should apply stun immunity), but the only reason pulls get a bad rap is because of VD.

Not sure where this opinion is stemming from as it is completely missing the mark.

VD has been in the game much longer than RoA has been and ever since it's original nerf, hasn't been an issue at all, even during the days when Dark Convergence (DC) was at it's most broken state.

Why is this? It's because despite how strong VD can get proccing on large groups of stacked up enemies, the enemies had to physically stack themselves up for the set to do anything meaningful (see fixing a keep door, etc). I.e. the set is strong, but required timing, coordination and skill to use it effectively and the set had inherent built in counterplay options that were available to literally every player/class in the game due to being core combat mechanics/awareness.

The thing is, it's impossible to fix the issue of under-geared players without completely destroying build diversity in PvP, since to ensure that players are no longer under geared would require full template PvP (even more completely template than the current vengeance campaign on PTS is).
Vicious Death will always be able to wipe players that stack up next to super squishy under-geared players, but the key here is that without RoA, Vicious Death is significantly easier to counter/play around (to the point where it's not even really a good set outside of MYM door/flag bombs) because as a player you can simply not stand right next to such squishy players or at the bare minimum hold block while casting heals to try and outheal the VD procs (hopefully there's not 3+ of said squishy players standing right next to you when VD procs) because there's no CC attached to VD.

TL//DR:
The fact remains, that without RoA forcing everyone pulled by it into being next to such under-geared players that enables VD to do its thing, VD becomes a non-issue, since most players can (and do) easily keep themselves separated far enough from such squishy players to not get caught by VD procs (or if they do get caught by it, it's simply lack of awareness, i.e. a skill issue). It is entirely the result of RoA pulling everyone next to such squishy players that is causing VD to seem like an issue when it's really not.

Alchimiste1 · February 17

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

One thing I have noticed (as someone who runs Rush in a ball group and has also been the victim of many deaths from rush) is that the "lag" doesn't work well with rush.

What I mean by that is - and this is just my observations and what I think is happening - is that... with the uptick in lag the server and clients can become out of sync for a small window (usually when things hit the fan during big fights).

On my screen I see player A in X position on the map.
On their screen they are already passing through position X and moving away from it.
When I see them at position X that is when I go in for my pull.
They continue to move away from X on their screen (but I think the server is still thinking they are closer to position X than they really are)

As a result... they get pulled from a mile away.. sometimes even after going around a wall and way out of line of sight.

Before I get roasted.. yes I'm away they increased the radius from rush.. we all have been pulled and said "No way I was near that"... I've said this 100 times myself in the last few months.

There is definetly something off with rush since the changes were made. Yes, it's easier to avoid getting pulled now (when you're closer to it and can see it) but if you're passing through position X and then get crazy far away... you still get pulled in.

Thats just my 2 cents on why it's performing the way it is. I could be totally wrong on this but I'd say it's not performing as intended and it's not something "in the code" they can just tweak to make it work correctly. I think it's a client/server sync issue that is much harder to fix. Curious to see what others think.

Indeed.

Such nuance is often lost in the ill-informed brigading against the set, but, as you know, in heavy lag the set often isn't reliable even from the POV of the wearer.

Given that the entire pull damage sequence is very tightly coordinated and on a strict schedule, using the set and expecting a pull of targets that are visually within the radius at time T but instead getting a pull of a much smaller subset of those targets at time T+2, T+3, T+4 or even, in the heaviest of lag, simply not having a pull at all despite meeting the proc criteria, is actually less helpful for outputting damage than simply not wearing the set to begin with.

That said, basically all mechanics go out the window at that point and fights devolve into basically RNG of whose abilities are actually recognized and actioned by the server and do those actions happen to occur at advantageous or disadvantageous times for the parties in combat.

Also, to answer the OP: using the set with the intention of pulling people through walls and crashing them is definitely not intended behavior. And if you're using the set with Shade (which serves no purpose whatsoever other than to achieve such outcomes) then you know what you're doing and probably shouldn't expect to get away with it.

Using shade + rush is not an exploit. Can't believe how disingenuous people are being. The reason someone would rush into shade is to get the hell out before the ball group kills them immediately after. Both the set and the skill are working exactly as they should.

Rush can pull players through corners including pillars, trees, tower corners regardless of any interaction with shade. If you are pulling players into a locked keep with a combination of rush + shade then yes, but as far as I’m aware that’s not possible.

that being said, rush of agony itself is a stupid set and should be nerfed. But you can't blame players for using it.

edit: upon further testing, my initial post was wrong and there are issues. The timing is a bit wonky but it can happen. Technically both set and skill work exactly as in the description, but I doubt that was the intended mechanic

James-Wayne · February 17

As a player with huge ping I actually love this set because it means I can be competitive and not be punished for the reaction to lag.

Orbital78 · February 17

I wish ZoS would give an official response to this and put it to rest. If they support this kind of use and this is how it is intended to be left and there is no risk of repercussion later on. Just putting it out there I am not a fan, but if it is going to be abused by others, I might as well get some TROLOLOLOL's off as well. Especially since my Tormentor tank build was gutted and I have no other use for the set before deconning it.

RealLoveBVB · February 17

Just hold block.

xylena_lazarow · February 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

RealLoveBVB · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

If you see an enemy teleporting to an ally close to you, you are starting to hold block. You won't get pulled in.

xylena_lazarow · February 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

If you see an enemy teleporting to an ally close to you, you are starting to hold block. You won't get pulled in.

Assuming you're positioned perfectly outside the radius of the fear spam and also block all the subsequent pulls, congratulations you've survived Rushing Agony.

But since you slowed down so much to block, now there's a ball group directly on top of you. You won't survive them just holding block, and their AoE will kill you the moment you let go of block to move. What now?

JobooAGS · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

If you see an enemy teleporting to an ally close to you, you are starting to hold block. You won't get pulled in.

Assuming you're positioned perfectly outside the radius of the fear spam and also block all the subsequent pulls, congratulations you've survived Rushing Agony.

But since you slowed down so much to block, now there's a ball group directly on top of you. You won't survive them just holding block, and their AoE will kill you the moment you let go of block to move. What now?

Pretty much if I see a ballgroup with RoA in my general zip code, I just leave the area at this point and go somewhere else

RealLoveBVB · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

If you see an enemy teleporting to an ally close to you, you are starting to hold block. You won't get pulled in.

Assuming you're positioned perfectly outside the radius of the fear spam and also block all the subsequent pulls, congratulations you've survived Rushing Agony.

But since you slowed down so much to block, now there's a ball group directly on top of you. You won't survive them just holding block, and their AoE will kill you the moment you let go of block to move. What now?

I generally avoid ball groups and you can see them from 100 meters away.

Besides that: if a ball group is aiming you, it doesn't matter if they have rush of agony or fear. You will die anyway.

xylena_lazarow · February 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

I generally avoid ball groups and you can see them from 100 meters away.Besides that: if a ball group is aiming you, it doesn't matter if they have rush of agony or fear. You will die anyway.

Yes, that is the correct counter to RoA. Stay away and don't engage. Any individual player can change directions faster than a whole group, so normally you can still outmaneuver them even if they charge at you, but Rushing Agony forces you to stay much, much farther away than normal, because it kills you where a group would normally miss their bomb.

Avran_Sylt · February 17

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Nothing about RoA is fair. It's design is fundamentally unfair. Free pull sets should not exist in any game for any reason. It's really bad design.

Root cause is more about undergeared players essentially becoming dead-man's switches against their own team via Vicious Death and RoA heavily helping facilitate a chain reaction. (wonder how nerfed VD would be if it had a cooldown between explosions).

Still a buggy set though (and should apply stun immunity), but the only reason pulls get a bad rap is because of VD.

Not sure where this opinion is stemming from as it is completely missing the mark.

VD has been in the game much longer than RoA has been and ever since it's original nerf, hasn't been an issue at all, even during the days when Dark Convergence (DC) was at it's most broken state.

Why is this? It's because despite how strong VD can get proccing on large groups of stacked up enemies, the enemies had to physically stack themselves up for the set to do anything meaningful (see fixing a keep door, etc). I.e. the set is strong, but required timing, coordination and skill to use it effectively and the set had inherent built in counterplay options that were available to literally every player/class in the game due to being core combat mechanics/awareness.

The thing is, it's impossible to fix the issue of under-geared players without completely destroying build diversity in PvP, since to ensure that players are no longer under geared would require full template PvP (even more completely template than the current vengeance campaign on PTS is).
Vicious Death will always be able to wipe players that stack up next to super squishy under-geared players, but the key here is that without RoA, Vicious Death is significantly easier to counter/play around (to the point where it's not even really a good set outside of MYM door/flag bombs) because as a player you can simply not stand right next to such squishy players or at the bare minimum hold block while casting heals to try and outheal the VD procs (hopefully there's not 3+ of said squishy players standing right next to you when VD procs) because there's no CC attached to VD.

TL//DR:
The fact remains, that without RoA forcing everyone pulled by it into being next to such under-geared players that enables VD to do its thing, VD becomes a non-issue, since most players can (and do) easily keep themselves separated far enough from such squishy players to not get caught by VD procs (or if they do get caught by it, it's simply lack of awareness, i.e. a skill issue). It is entirely the result of RoA pulling everyone next to such squishy players that is causing VD to seem like an issue when it's really not.

You can block the pull, it's not a guarantee. At most then your post is about a lack of proper telegraph.

Avran_Sylt · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Just hold block.

How does that advice help them counter the fear stun spam that comes immediately after the pull?

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

Tan9oSuccka · February 17

James-Wayne wrote: »

As a player with huge ping I actually love this set because it means I can be competitive and not be punished for the reaction to lag.

To be honest, you shouldn’t be rewarded at all for a horrible connection.

For other players, you probably are speed skating to electric 2 bugaloo running rush. Who knows where the server puts you and the conditions of this set.

Avran_Sylt · February 17

So, I would say take care, as my step-by-step RoA/Shade reproduction method was snipped for talking about [cheating/exploits]. Still don't know if it only applies to intentionally bypassing mechanics (EG Cyrodiil keeps), or trying to pull people through things in general though.

xylena_lazarow · February 17

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

And then you also have to avoid the fear stun and not simply get bombed by the ball group because you stood still blocking. Inevitably you conclude that the only "counter" to RoA is to stay very far away and never engage at all.

RealLoveBVB · February 17

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Pull doesn't happen if you're blocking.

And then you also have to avoid the fear stun and not simply get bombed by the ball group because you stood still blocking. Inevitably you conclude that the only "counter" to RoA is to stay very far away and never engage at all.

The topic is about rush of agony, yet you always mention ball groups. So what exactly is the issue? Ball groups? If yes, then I am with you- they ruin pvp.

But rush of agony isn't an issue, especially when played by solo players, who wants to fight against groups.

Soraka · February 17

Set is a mess and needs some attention and response of some sort, as evidenced by multiple threads, disagreement on if using it is exploiting it, and toxic community fracturing stemming from the unclear acceptability of its use (streamer thread).