BananaBender wrote: »

I'm so surprised that there has been so few mentions of /encounterlog. Anyone who has done any organized raiding knows that this already exists in the game.

And an addon to enable it for specific areas: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2332-EasyStalking-Encounterlog.html

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

You can look at the death recap and learn a lot.

Death recaps are misleading and badly designed. There's no timestamps, dots are consolidated without indication of time interval, recent damage events are listed or ignored based on unknowable logic... so when a normal player trained on normal death recaps PvPs the mega tryhard who reads CMX addon logs, they get obliterated so badly they think it can only be "cheating" as there's no clue to how their opponent is dumping so much damage seemingly all at once.

I also see a lot of casual to mid players vastly overestimating what they'll gain from looking at someone's build. You don't need to see my build to know within 3 seconds of fighting me that I'm a dot pressure DK, seeing my gear isn't going to explain how I'm piloting it, nor how to fight against it, nor explain my build decisions... still not against the idea though, the build system is obtuse enough, and there aren't enough good build resources out there.

Well we don’t have addon combat logs on console, so recaps are what we have. They may not show a chronological sequence of events but they are insightful nonetheless.

Imagine inspecting people's equipment in real life, you know how creepy that would be?

The fact is what gear I am using is my business alone, Sorry but you are not entitled to know what sets that I am using, if you wish to know than all you need to do is ask and I will either tell you or I won't.

Hmmm.

Normally, I've primarily heard concerns about elitism and the "inspect" functionality discussed more in terms of PvE. This is at least partially because for many years, "pug" groups would check applicants for clears before being allowed to join the group. The concern was that introducing an "inspect" feature would inevitably lead to gear checks as well as clear checks, making it harder for mid-tier players to farm gear and advance to end game. As in, "let me inspect your gear or I'm kicking you from this group." I think there was also concern that this would open the door for automated gear checks for dungeon finder, killing build creativity and, again, cause elitism as players might unify to kick players with "bad" gear at the beginning of runs. This was a "you're not good enough to play with me" elitism.

The most direct correlation to this comparison in PvP would be, I suppose, BG's. People could potentially, I suppose, go around inspecting people while waiting for the match to start, but I don't think you can kick them.

And yes, I suppose PvP pugs in Cyro and IC could start doing gear checks. But I have never, ever in all my years of playing ESO been asked to show any kind of qualification before joining a PvP pug. No one asks to see my clears, no one asks what I'm wearing, no one even asks what kind of role I'm trying to play. It's "lfg" or "type x for group." That's it.

So, no, I don't think that an inspect feature would introduce elitism in PvP the way it might in PvE. Maybe, at most, within organized groups and guilds.

However, I do think it could increase harassment. In both PvE and PvP, but especially in PvP. In an environment where a certain... action (can I even reference it on the forums?) is still normal (despite being a bannable offense now) and hate whispers can be a thing, it's not a stretch to imagine people being inspected and then ridiculed, shamed, called out, etc. for what they are wearing. And the OP is talking about not only inspecting one's teammates, but the opposition! Since, generally speaking, you're not going to be able to "inspect" your opponent until you've killed them, imo the functionality would lend itself much more to insults post-death rather than pre-fight strategizing.

It's true that many players will not answer you if you say "hey, nice fight, what were you wearing?" (Although, btw, some people will answer!) But I would say it's even more true that no player is going to stop fighting you as you're running out to battle if you say "STOOOPPP, hold on one sec, I just need to see what you're wearing so we can have a fair, strategically planned fight!"

Therefore, in this hair-trigger, meme-happy world, I suspect this functionality would do more harm than good. I agree that more accessible knowledge about successful builds on the PvP side might be helpful, but I'm not sure this is the solution. (PS. Back when I played WoW, a LONG time ago, I think you could also look up players later. I'm not even sure that would be helpful at this point in the game, since the gear I log off with may not be what I was wearing during the fight someone might be wondering about. I've got PvE Builds, PvP Builds, Craft Builds... and guess which one I usually log off with?)

VoxAdActa wrote: »

I am once again asking how you intend to make use of this real-time build information. "I can counter their build" is not a specific enough answer. How do you plan to "counter" a build once you know it? How do you plan to track down the specific person who killed you once you have done whatever you need to do to "counter" them? Since PvP builds are allegedly so individually unique, your "counter" would only work against that one person and nobody else.

How do you see yourself utilizing the knowledge gained through inspecting enemy players' loadouts? I'm still trying to figure out how you are envisioning this system.

This was never about some hyper-specific ‘revenge quest’ against one guy in Cyrodiil it’s about long-term learning, strategy, and adaptation.

Knowing what sets and skills are being used helps players recognize patterns, understand the current PvP landscape, and make informed decisions about their own builds. If I keep running into tanky players who shrug off my burst, I can check their setups and realize, ‘Oh, a lot of people are stacking X set with Y Mythic—maybe I need to adjust my approach.’ Or 'Oh the heals in ballgroups are running mostly snowstrader wtv etc, i could XYZ maybe not invest skills that slow them since its pointless.etc etc That’s called strategic adaptation, and it’s what separates good PvP systems from mindless button-mashing.

Acting like counterplay only matters for one person in one fight is just dodging the point. If you actually care about competitive integrity, you’d understand why information matters

Asdara wrote: »

This was never about some hyper-specific ‘revenge quest’ against one guy in Cyrodiil it’s about long-term learning, strategy, and adaptation.

Knowing what sets and skills are being used helps players recognize patterns, understand the current PvP landscape, and make informed decisions about their own builds.

So it doesn't actually need to be in real time? It can be on a website, or a YouTube channel, because you're using it for study, not counterplay?

'Oh the heals in ballgroups are running mostly snowstrader wtv etc, i could XYZ maybe not invest skills that slow them since its pointless.etc etc

Wait, I thought you said PvP builds were just so unique. I get the feeling you really are expecting to see significant numbers of players who are using secret-squirrel builds that the hundreds of available streamers and theorycrafters have overlooked.

Why?

That’s called strategic adaptation, and it’s what separates good PvP systems from mindless button-mashing.

I guess "practice" isn't a component of "good PvP systems."

Acting like counterplay only matters for one person in one fight is just dodging the point.

I'm not the one who claimed that there's an infinite variety of different PvP builds, so the publicly available information is insufficient to useless. That was your claim. And if it's true, that means "counterplay" based on builds and loadouts rather than skill at playing the game is going to be very specific to one person or a small group of people, and cannot be generalized.

You go back and forth between claiming that you can learn general, broad tactics from studying a few specific builds and claiming that the builds are so varied and different that you can't learn anything from studying the available information. Those two positions can't live in the same house together.

If you actually care about competitive integrity, you’d understand why information matters

Thousands of people have figured out how to achieve success in the current PvP system over the last 10 years. Thousands. Every single one of them started from level 1 with access only to the publicly available information (and a significant subset started without even that). I understand the desire to "stand on the shoulders of giants," as it were, by being able to inspect them and learn, with a mouse click, what they spent dozens or hundreds of hours learning and painstakingly fine-tuning all on their own. But to call that "competitive integrity" is stretching the meaning of the phrase.

As someone who makes my own builds that are quite competitive... honestly the death recap tells me a lot. If your opponent is wearing proc sets that deal damage they'll show up on the recap, and many of them have unique effects that're visible during the engagement.

There's also something I've learned over the many years, and it's that what sets your opponents are wearing isn't as important as how they killed you.... which on paper sounds ridiculous, but let me explain.

You have 30k HP, and suddenly died in around 5 seconds. If you're not paying attention you might've missed the buffs your opponent cast, the line up of their burst combo, and the placement of a stun as the delayed effects came crashing down upon you. They also did all this while your defensive skills were down. Some abilities are more obvious than others (You'll see that meteor quite easily, but might've missed the Fossilize skill if they timed it right), and it takes more than just "equip XYZ sets and win".

Another factor about ESO is defense vs offense. I'm more offensively focused, but even I have to accept the fact that I need to have some form of defensive plan if I lose the pressure I was applying in a fight. Blocking, dodge rolls, burst heals, heals over time, enough resistances (physical, spell, and critical), enough health... it all adds up.
When I plan a build out I look at what minimums I need to reach according to the current meta. If I am dying too much add more resistances, if that's not working add more HP. Sometimes it's a skill issue and I just need to be quicker on the dodges, blocks, and heals.

Taking this all into account... read what the sets in the game give you, understand the rules of the game (reading the tooltips when you hover your mouse over the different stats helps a LOT), and find the sets that benefit your playstyle and class the best. You don't need to meta chase, and you don't need to know everything your opponent is doing because if you know your build well enough, and it's well though out, you'll win plenty of engagements. Once you understand your build well enough, and read the death recaps and forums, you'll find out pretty quickly what people are using and build counters and adapt what you're doing.

Edit: Also another thing I learned to do is always have buffs and debuffs turned on in the UI. By default they're off for some reason, and by turning them on you'll greatly improve since you have more information available to you at a glance. This'll also help you see what effects an opponent has on them, how long until you need to refresh your abilities, etc.

Asdara wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The lack of an inspection is not that big of a deal. It does not take away from our games or any sense of competitiveness in PvP as suggested or from PvE.

I find it odd that being able to inspect a player adds any competitiveness in PvP since a player's skill and the choices made in combat define how competitive a player is. If anything, the lack of inspection increases competitiveness since it would drive players to figure out what works best for them instead of copying what someone else has.

If anything, watching what someone does and their strategy does a lot more than inspecting gear could ever do. Watching videos and grabbing the recording of one's gameplay when defeated by another player to see how they counter or take advantage of our moves leads to learning how to play better. Seeing someone's gear teaches next to nothing. I know on PC we can set things up to grab the last few minutes of gameplay with a simple keybind. I understand that it can be done via Google search on both consoles as well.

If the lack of an inspection feature ‘doesn’t take away from competitiveness,’ then why do so many competitive games provide tools to analyze opponents? Fighting games have frame data, RTS games let you study build orders, and even MOBAs let you see enemy itemization. But somehow, in ESO PvP, we should just blindly guess and ‘figure it out’? That’s not competition, that’s just trial-and-error nonsense.

And let’s be real, watching a video of someone killing you won’t magically tell you what set bonuses, passives, and procs they’re using. If I lose to a tanky build and don’t know whether they’re running Mara’s Balm, Pariah, or something else entirely, how exactly am I supposed to adjust?

Inspection wouldn’t remove skill, it would remove needless barriers that serve no purpose other than keeping PvP a guessing game.

If you need your build hidden to maintain an advantage, you’re not competing, you’re gatekeeping.

Just because other games with competitive aspects have inspection features does not mean the inspection feature has anything to do with competition.

Somehow, I can defeat players without knowing what gear they are wearing. Am I that good? Have I overcome the lack of that information, or does it not matter?

sans-culottes wrote: »

. Do you really think you’ve come up with something so novel that others can’t be allowed to see it, though?

Conversely, do you really think that any significant number of people have come up with something so novel that you can't find it on any of the hundred theorycrafting websites or YouTube channels devoted to ESO PvP builds?

All of these discussion points in favor of "inspect" are so double-sided. On the one hand, they rely on PvP builds to be so varied that studying the willingly-provided information is useless. On the other hand, they also rely on PvP builds to be common enough that studying a small percentage of random builds will provide information that can be generalized to overall PvP success.

It's one or the other. Either PvP builds are too unique to rely on publicly available information, and therefore require a real-time inspection mechanic to counter, or PvP builds have enough common factors between them that seeing one or a few builds provides enough information to do more than counter that/those specific players. These posts are trying to say both things at the same time, even though they directly contradict each other.

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

. Do you really think you’ve come up with something so novel that others can’t be allowed to see it, though?

Conversely, do you really think that any significant number of people have come up with something so novel that you can't find it on any of the hundred theorycrafting websites or YouTube channels devoted to ESO PvP builds?

All of these discussion points in favor of "inspect" are so double-sided. On the one hand, they rely on PvP builds to be so varied that studying the willingly-provided information is useless. On the other hand, they also rely on PvP builds to be common enough that studying a small percentage of random builds will provide information that can be generalized to overall PvP success.

It's one or the other. Either PvP builds are too unique to rely on publicly available information, and therefore require a real-time inspection mechanic to counter, or PvP builds have enough common factors between them that seeing one or a few builds provides enough information to do more than counter that/those specific players. These posts are trying to say both things at the same time, even though they directly contradict each other.

It’s not contradicting yourself to say it’d be nice for both PVE and PVP players to be able to inspect one another. I never said anything about “countering builds,” although I suppose some other people may have. I tend to think this is much ado about nothing.

You did, though. Just now. I'll requote it:

Do you really think you’ve come up with something so novel that others can’t be allowed to see it, though?

Either they did or they didn't. If they did, then seeing it with "inspect" won't help anyone learn anything generalizable about PvP, PvP builds, or PvP tactics. There would be nothing to learn except that unique build.

If they didn't, and their build is a common build or a slight variant on a common build, and therefore not worthy of protection, it's also a build that you can find from one of the consenting players who publish information about their common PvP loadouts and strategies.

Essentially, this sentence is both saying "Your build is not special" and "Your build is so special that nobody else has willingly shared anything like it, so I will take your hours of work, experimentation, and practice for myself whether you want me to or not."

Kinda don't like the assumption/projection that people who don't want to be inspected are sniffing their own farts and feeling exclusive and awesome. I've played other games where people use it to antagonize/invalidate/bother people. Kinda like the old "what're those" shoe meme. Will people be rude without it? Sure. This just gives more ammo.
'so and so, you use x set don't talk in zone' kinda stuff.
I have never had awesome meta builds, I just make what I like and what works for me. Nothing secret, nothing awesome, nothing glaringly bad. I have enough experience in games to know if everyone could walk around and inspect me I'd have a lot more unnecessary commentary on what I do and say based off of what would appear to be an easy scapegoat - a set or stat that others disagree with because it's not currently in fashion.

Like I said before, I'm not the biggest fan of the idea, but I'd deal with it if it happened. Just maybe stop projecting so much on people who aren't 100% enthusiastic about it, please.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Nobody deserves secret builds. They are offered secret builds in this particular game. And there are pros and cons to that offer.

Finally. Something solid.

You do believe that there are people/guilds out there running around with Top Secret builds that none of the streamers or websites know about.

Which is a highly dubious belief, but ok, we'll go with that. Let's assume that's true.

Since these are super-special builds nobody else has uncovered, that means these people dumped a huge amount of effort into grinding for the gear, testing the loadout, and fine-tuning everything to make The Ultimate Secret Build.

They couldn't refer to any outside information, because nobody else has ever done it before. They had to make it from scratch. Which represents probably hundreds of hours of intense work, research, spreadsheets, math, parses, and repeated failure, probably over the course of years, while they struggled to learn The Secret Build Technique That's Hidden From the Rest of the Online World.

And you believe you're entitled to steal the end result of all that work with a couple of mouse clicks?

That's like saying KFC not telling you their secret herbs and spices combo is unfair to your new small business fried chicken restaurant. Or that your startup soft drink company is entitled to Coke's proprietary formula, and they should be forced to give it to you whether they want to or not.

Ok, let me try to ask this question a fourth time.

What hidden, complex information do you expect an "inspect" mechanic to reveal to you that's not the end result of someone's years of work in developing the (probably nonexistent) Secret Super Build?

So, they either do outside research or they quit.

What MMO have you played that requires no outside research at all? Even EverQuest required outside research (Epic quests, how to pull the Dain, etc.). And the people who first discovered those secrets were likewise reluctant to share the result of their hard work; it was the second or third wave of people who figured it out that published it for everyone to see. Actually, now that I try to look it up, they may never have revealed how to pull the Dain into the pit. Hmm. Anyway.

Do New World, Ark, Throne & Liberty, or WoW tell players every aspect of their game in-game, with no wiki or outside research required?

JinKC98 wrote: »

Not convinced this should be added into the game. Every match, players tend to wear different Sets and have different playstyles, how these info will help you "strategize and counterplay"?

Already give me the creeps certain players can see what loots I was getting in dungeon and trial runs and like "can you give me that pls"

A simple way is to put it to vote. I think it's a landslide NO judging by responses here.

There's another thread with a pole on this topic, 80% voting straight no, and ~4% voting other (with the comments from the "other" voters tending towards no as a general, but explaining reasons/possible exceptions).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/673260/should-players-be-allowed-to-inspect-gear-and-looted-items-from-other-players#latest

Definitely a resounding no with 80% of the votes (~85% considering the "other" are commenting as mostly no to it as well), even with a currently small sample size.