Inspecting Other Players should be a core mechanic for PVP

Amottica · February 12

Iriidius wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

The lack of an inspection is not that big of a deal. It does not take away from our games or any sense of competitiveness in PvP as suggested or from PvE.

I find it odd that being able to inspect a player adds any competitiveness in PvP since a player's skill and the choices made in combat define how competitive a player is. If anything, the lack of inspection increases competitiveness since it would drive players to figure out what works best for them instead of copying what someone else has.

If anything, watching what someone does and their strategy does a lot more than inspecting gear could ever do. Watching videos and grabbing the recording of one's gameplay when defeated by another player to see how they counter or take advantage of our moves leads to learning how to play better. Seeing someone's gear teaches next to nothing. I know on PC we can set things up to grab the last few minutes of gameplay with a simple keybind. I understand that it can be done via Google search on both consoles as well.

The choices made in combat not define how competitive a player is and rarely make a differenc in the outcome of a fight. Very often you can keep your buffs, hots and dots up, time and hit your attacks/burst, block or dodge every enemy burst and attack that should be blocked/dodged, manage your stamina/magicka, burstheal if you need to and still loose to an opponent who is not countering your attacks at all and just spamming attacks. Very often it does not matter what someone does but which build he uses for it.
Most fights are already decided before they even start. As soon as a player sees a stronger player he has already lost and often cant escape.

Not sure about inspection mode, It could help to see which builds some extremely strong players have and where their build has weaknesses but also allow bullies to find the weaknesses in their preys build and more efficient focus them. It favors Elitists with many different builds as they can chose one that is effektive against their target especially when the target is solo.

So the suggestion is to be able to inspect a player in a PvP zone before engaging them? I really cannot imagine a player choosing to do that since they will probably die while inspecting the player.

I do not know how other people fight, but I have found that my skill and experience have a more significant role in the outcome of a fight than whatever gear the enemy player is wearing. If they are super tanky, I can figure that out quickly using my senses and decide how to proceed as in fight or flight.

I fail to see how inspecting a player is going to help. Even after being defeated, they would not be able to inspect the enemy player since there would never be inspections of enemies in a PvP zone, even in the unlikely chance the top developers would change their mind after they made the choice to not have inspections well over 10 years ago.

So yea, inspections will not change the outcome of a fight, hence it will not lead to a more competitive PvP as has been suggested.

Turtle_Bot · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The game is extremely complex, hides the information necessary to understand the complexity (which is why it takes so long to equip yourself in anything that isn't copypasta from a content creator) and doesn't teach you anything besides a basic how to block, bash, and interrupt at the tutorial and then never again.

The lack of inspect is just one tiny aspect, probably the smallest, in a long list of issues that sums up to "this game does an awful job of teaching people how to play it but is still extremely complex."

Snipped for brevity also.

The game is very complex and the lack of in-game information is one of the bigger pain points in this game for newer players, but that is never going to be solved by adding an inspection feature that is wide open to abuse, harassment, exploitation and toxicity.

The game should be implementing much better tutorials all throughout the game (ideally as part of the tutorial areas and reinforcing these skills during the main questlines for each alliance and DLC zone main questlines utilizing the quest bosses for this). Using different tells for each dlc zone/alliance quest bosses so that players can learn different tells to look out for and learn/practice when to block or dodge an attack instead of relying entirely on the current "seeing red or yellow lines shooting out from a giant boss that's holding their weapon/pose a certain way for 5 seconds before attacking".

The other thing that would help a lot, is a much better/cleaner UI design, with clearer displays for tracking buffs/debuffs/timers, health, resources, consumables, etc. Perhaps making the icons for the basic buffs/debuffs such as damage, crit and armor (brut/sorc, proph/sav and resolve/breach respectively) stand out more among the clutter of buffs and debuffs. Another way to help this would be to have the buff trackers, attribute bars, timers, etc. set to display on by default, and the player can then opt to turn them off in the settings menu if they want more immersion, role play etc.

As has been pointed out multiple times already, just because it's possible to see a build with an inspect tool, doesn't automatically grant the knowledge of how to pilot the build properly, or even the basics of how a build is supposed to work. So it's not going to do anything to help players learn and grow the skillsets required to succeed in the combat aspects of ESO.

If the aim truly is to help new players and not just open the can of worms that an inspect feature would bring, then what should be asked for are better in-game tutorials that teach core combat mechanics, awareness, and all the other skills required to play the game at a high level. Also better designed quest encounters to reinforce those learnt core combat mechanics gained via the better tutorials should be asked for as well to help train and practice players through natural questing/story telling.

abkam · February 12

Any player can log the entire run, allowing us to see all the items and builds other players use, when they use them in fights, and everything else. There’s no privacy at all! The maximum privacy a player can have is hiding their name from logs, nothing else! ESO logs save everything, and we can upload the log to the internet so any other player in the world can see what items we all use.

There is absolutely nothing we (or you) can do to prevent this. Since there's no privacy and nothing you can do to hide your builds, why not add an option to inspect other players’ items without logs? Just make it easier. There’s nothing wrong with that.

KekwLord3000 · February 12

Watch PVP mains send pipe bombs to your house if this feature goes live.
They have been playing pvp for 10 years non stop and found pretty meta builds that are gate kept from casual pvpers (like pve was early on)

edward_frigidhands · February 12

Asdara wrote: »

Disclaimer: This article is written from a PvP perspective and focuses solely on the importance of inspecting other players within PvP scenarios in ESO.

Inspecting other players should be a core mechanic of PvP because it directly supports the competitive nature of the game.

Atm you're forced to guess, which is not only frustrating but puts you at a disadvantage compared to those who have access to detailed information. Without an inspection feature, you’re left in the dark, guessing at the opponent's build, making it impossible to develop an intelligent counter-strategy. Moreover, with the increasing number of players using cosmetic skins for spell and scribing, reading a player's build or determining their skill usage has become nearly impossible. This makes the already difficult task of understanding an opponent’s build even more challenging. What’s the point of even trying to study an enemy player at this point? Why should I waste time fumbling around trying to guess what your setup is?
It’s like playing a game of “guess the ability” when you're already at a disadvantage. The cosmetic skins may look cool, but they add an unnecessary layer of confusion that hinders any meaningful competitive interaction, especially when combined with the lack of an inspection feature.

Oh, and I can hear the people in the back screaming, "You can just ask them lol."

Well, let's be honest here, most PvP players don’t want to share their builds. They’ve spent hours perfecting their setups, testing what works best, and putting in the work to gain an edge. Asking them for that info? You're not likely to get a response, or if you do, it’s often vague or unhelpful. The reality is, many players keep their builds to themselves to maintain their competitive advantage. That's why having the ability to inspect their gear, abilities, and buffs is so essential. It’s not about interrupting the flow or bothering anyone, it's about leveling the playing field and ensuring that knowledge is accessible, not just hoarded by the few who are willing to share.

Then, there’s the issue of player knowledge and growth. Inspections are not just about "checking out" your opponent they’re about learning. How did that player do so much damage? Why are they healing so much? What set are they using that gives them that insane defense? These are questions that should drive us to improve our own gameplay. Instead, without an inspection feature, we're left to guess, or worse fall into a toxic loop of trial and error. If I could see what gear, traits, or abilities you're running, I could adjust my own strategies and builds to actually learn and evolve as a player. Isn't that what PvP is about? Testing your skills, adapting, and getting better?

I've also heard the argument about the fact that it will "promote elitism"

The very idea that inspecting someone’s gear or abilities somehow promotes elitism or a sense of superiority is a weak excuse. If anything, not being able to inspect gear only helps the truly elitist players: those who have the best setups but refuse to share their knowledge. Let’s be real here: someone with better gear should be able to showcase that gear without fear of being judged for it. If a player is running a top-tier build, they should want others to see it because it’s the result of their effort, knowledge, and investment. But without an inspection feature, players with suboptimal setups are left to assume that everyone has the same opportunities which is far from true.
Furthermore, not having an inspection feature ruins the sense of community and cooperative learning. When players can’t inspect each other, it fosters an environment of secrecy and isolation. Yes, players can ask each other what they’re wearing, but that depends on the willingness of the other player to actually share this information. And if they don't want to? Tough luck. The game should provide the means to encourage communication and shared learning without having to jump through hoops. If I see someone kicking butt in PvP, I should be able to inspect them, learn from them, and potentially even mimic or adapt their tactics. Instead, without that feature, it feels like we're stuck in the dark ages of MMO design, where players only succeed through trial, error, and pure luck.

Finally, nowadays content creators have become the only reliable sources of build knowledge and PvP strategies.
But here's the catch !
These creators are becoming increasingly rare. Fewer and fewer players are willing to pour their time into creating guides, builds, and tutorials. This is especially problematic for new or casual players who rely on these creators to understand the game's complex mechanics. Without an inspection system in place, players are left at the mercy of these rare guides, which may not always be up to date or easy to find. It's frustrating that the game itself doesn't support this kind of learning through basic features, forcing players to jump through hoops or rely solely on outside sources, which is neither efficient nor sustainable in the long run.

This doesn't belong in this game.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As has been pointed out multiple times already, just because it's possible to see a build with an inspect tool, doesn't automatically grant the knowledge of how to pilot the build properly, or even the basics of how a build is supposed to work. So it's not going to do anything to help players learn and grow the skillsets required to succeed in the combat aspects of ESO.

It doesn't. Which is why the fears that someone copying a build and beating you instantly would never happen.

It gives you a good jumping off point for experimenting and learning yourself, which is one their main uses in the games that have them.

People tend to use them for learning (either solicited coaching or learning through gameplay). Or for group building (for better or for worse).

We know that they are good for these things because it's how they have been used across many different games for many years.

Inspect is just one tool of many changes that would be needed to making progression in this game more accessible.

It's tutorials, it's updating outdated sets, it's inspection, it's clearer tells for heavy attacks/interrupts, it's UI improvements. ESO needs a lot of work on this front. There's not any one single change that could fix the issue imo.

spartaxoxo · February 12

VoxAdActa wrote: »

l
The idea that an "inspect" mechanic is necessary because some other people don't want to do any of that work is certainly an opinion. It's an opinion based on faulty presuppositions, supported by contradictory reasoning, and ultimately serves the purposes of a small group of people who are unable or unwilling to walk the same path every single other PvPer in the history of MMOs (and every other competitive game) has ever had to walk.

Inspect is a very basic feature across many different MMOs, including some of the biggest ones. There is nothing contradictory about saying some people want to learn by playing and inspect enables that.

It is only contradictory if you take "YouTube videos are fine for everyone" as a fact rather than a opinion. But it is not a fact. There are tons of people who do not wish to look at outside resources. They want to play the game. And if they can't do that in a game, they'll go to one where they can.

Kram8ion · February 12

No thanks lol

Ph1p · February 12

abkam wrote: »

Any player can log the entire run, allowing us to see all the items and builds other players use, when they use them in fights, and everything else. There’s no privacy at all! The maximum privacy a player can have is hiding their name from logs, nothing else! ESO logs save everything, and we can upload the log to the internet so any other player in the world can see what items we all use.

There is absolutely nothing we (or you) can do to prevent this. Since there's no privacy and nothing you can do to hide your builds, why not add an option to inspect other players’ items without logs? Just make it easier. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I don’t think the issue is necessarily about privacy, at least not on PC. But there is a difference between post-action logs and a live, in-game feature one could potentially use even before initiating combat.

Soraka · February 12

Isn't that also supposed to be part of the purpose of guilds? To help with knowledge and training and collaboration? I don't disagree that tutorials should be better. I think there's just a big in game resource that is not being discussed.

sans-culottes · February 12

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

. Do you really think you’ve come up with something so novel that others can’t be allowed to see it, though?

Conversely, do you really think that any significant number of people have come up with something so novel that you can't find it on any of the hundred theorycrafting websites or YouTube channels devoted to ESO PvP builds?

All of these discussion points in favor of "inspect" are so double-sided. On the one hand, they rely on PvP builds to be so varied that studying the willingly-provided information is useless. On the other hand, they also rely on PvP builds to be common enough that studying a small percentage of random builds will provide information that can be generalized to overall PvP success.

It's one or the other. Either PvP builds are too unique to rely on publicly available information, and therefore require a real-time inspection mechanic to counter, or PvP builds have enough common factors between them that seeing one or a few builds provides enough information to do more than counter that/those specific players. These posts are trying to say both things at the same time, even though they directly contradict each other.

It’s not contradicting yourself to say it’d be nice for both PVE and PVP players to be able to inspect one another. I never said anything about “countering builds,” although I suppose some other people may have. I tend to think this is much ado about nothing.

You did, though. Just now. I'll requote it:

Do you really think you’ve come up with something so novel that others can’t be allowed to see it, though?

Either they did or they didn't. If they did, then seeing it with "inspect" won't help anyone learn anything generalizable about PvP, PvP builds, or PvP tactics. There would be nothing to learn except that unique build.

If they didn't, and their build is a common build or a slight variant on a common build, and therefore not worthy of protection, it's also a build that you can find from one of the consenting players who publish information about their common PvP loadouts and strategies.

Essentially, this sentence is both saying "Your build is not special" and "Your build is so special that nobody else has willingly shared anything like it, so I will take your hours of work, experimentation, and practice for myself whether you want me to or not."

But that’s not what I said. I just said “it would be nice to see what other people are using.” You’re inferring incorrectly.

To wit: Your “build” isn’t special, nor is your gear. Other games have included the ability to inspect other players, and it hasn’t led to some catastrophe.

Reading these other, extraneous comments into my assertion is really just you projecting.

Tan9oSuccka · February 12

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

sans-culottes · February 12

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

Orbital78 · February 12

Couldn't you just run logs? I don't see the need for this, I think PVP has much bigger issues to tackle first. There is blatant exploiting and sets doing "features" they should not giving some players WAY unfair advantages. I don't bother taking pvp serious for the most part as I'm too old to care about ring around the rosy or catch me if you can tower edition.

Tan9oSuccka · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

For a multitude of reasons. PVP builds that work well most are finely tuned with trial and error, Champion manipulation, dueling good players and limit testing. Not to mention the gold and time investment. Why would anyone want to take that investment and hand over the free blueprint to any random scrib to inspect and copy?

For PVE, inspect would act as a barrier to activities. Oh, you don’t have Gold perfected set X? Kick.

The trial community is already pretty toxic. No thanks to add that element to it.

Also, they need to keep combat metrics or whatever add ons far, far away from console.

spartaxoxo · February 12

Orbital78 wrote: »

Couldn't you just run logs? I don't see the need for this, I think PVP has much bigger issues to tackle first. There is blatant exploiting and sets doing "features" they should not giving some players WAY unfair advantages. I don't bother taking pvp serious for the most part as I'm too old to care about ring around the rosy or catch me if you can tower edition.

Console can't run logs

Orbital78 · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Couldn't you just run logs? I don't see the need for this, I think PVP has much bigger issues to tackle first. There is blatant exploiting and sets doing "features" they should not giving some players WAY unfair advantages. I don't bother taking pvp serious for the most part as I'm too old to care about ring around the rosy or catch me if you can tower edition.

Console can't run logs

They can't? Hmmph I guessed all consoles had KB&M support by now. No wonder there are so many console refugees coming to PC, I cannot blame them.

sans-culottes · February 12

Orbital78 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

Couldn't you just run logs? I don't see the need for this, I think PVP has much bigger issues to tackle first. There is blatant exploiting and sets doing "features" they should not giving some players WAY unfair advantages. I don't bother taking pvp serious for the most part as I'm too old to care about ring around the rosy or catch me if you can tower edition.

Console can't run logs

They can't? Hmmph I guessed all consoles had KB&M support by now. No wonder there are so many console refugees coming to PC, I cannot blame them.

Consoles have never supported this. Could they? Absolutely. Should they? 💯. Actually, just enable crossplay or let us transfer characters to PC because…

katanagirl1 · February 12

Soraka wrote: »

Isn't that also supposed to be part of the purpose of guilds? To help with knowledge and training and collaboration? I don't disagree that tutorials should be better. I think there's just a big in game resource that is not being discussed.

The few PvP guilds I still see around would rather hit some far flung enemy keep than defend our home keeps because they are farming AP. I don’t know if any of them do any teaching. The only one I was ever in turned out to be a front for an AD recruitment agency.

sans-culottes · February 12

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

For a multitude of reasons. PVP builds that work well most are finely tuned with trial and error, Champion manipulation, dueling good players and limit testing. Not to mention the gold and time investment. Why would anyone want to take that investment and hand over the free blueprint to any random scrib to inspect and copy?

For PVE, inspect would act as a barrier to activities. Oh, you don’t have Gold perfected set X? Kick.

The trial community is already pretty toxic. No thanks to add that element to it.

Also, they need to keep combat metrics or whatever add ons far, far away from console.

I’m curious, then, how other games in the same genre have thrived while offering such a shocking theft of…intellectual property? Is that it? Or…?

ESO_player123 · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

For a multitude of reasons. PVP builds that work well most are finely tuned with trial and error, Champion manipulation, dueling good players and limit testing. Not to mention the gold and time investment. Why would anyone want to take that investment and hand over the free blueprint to any random scrib to inspect and copy?

For PVE, inspect would act as a barrier to activities. Oh, you don’t have Gold perfected set X? Kick.

The trial community is already pretty toxic. No thanks to add that element to it.

Also, they need to keep combat metrics or whatever add ons far, far away from console.

I’m curious, then, how other games in the same genre have thrived while offering such a shocking theft of…intellectual property? Is that it? Or…?

I played an MMORPG where such feature was added, but any player could choose to opt out. So, if ZOS decides to add inspection, I hope it would include this option (for all the reasons already mentioned by other players).

sans-culottes · February 12

ESO_player123 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

For a multitude of reasons. PVP builds that work well most are finely tuned with trial and error, Champion manipulation, dueling good players and limit testing. Not to mention the gold and time investment. Why would anyone want to take that investment and hand over the free blueprint to any random scrib to inspect and copy?

For PVE, inspect would act as a barrier to activities. Oh, you don’t have Gold perfected set X? Kick.

The trial community is already pretty toxic. No thanks to add that element to it.

Also, they need to keep combat metrics or whatever add ons far, far away from console.

I’m curious, then, how other games in the same genre have thrived while offering such a shocking theft of…intellectual property? Is that it? Or…?

I played an MMORPG where such feature was added, but any player could choose to opt out. So, if ZOS decides to add inspection, I hope it would include this option (for all the reasons already mentioned by other players).

Same. It didn’t lead to, like, the widespread abuse and gatekeeping and theft of…what equipment someone is wearing? That you could opt out kinda negated these complaints.

ESO_player123 · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

No thank you. Hard no to inspect mode.

Why?

For a multitude of reasons. PVP builds that work well most are finely tuned with trial and error, Champion manipulation, dueling good players and limit testing. Not to mention the gold and time investment. Why would anyone want to take that investment and hand over the free blueprint to any random scrib to inspect and copy?

For PVE, inspect would act as a barrier to activities. Oh, you don’t have Gold perfected set X? Kick.

The trial community is already pretty toxic. No thanks to add that element to it.

Also, they need to keep combat metrics or whatever add ons far, far away from console.

I’m curious, then, how other games in the same genre have thrived while offering such a shocking theft of…intellectual property? Is that it? Or…?

I played an MMORPG where such feature was added, but any player could choose to opt out. So, if ZOS decides to add inspection, I hope it would include this option (for all the reasons already mentioned by other players).

Same. It didn’t lead to, like, the widespread abuse and gatekeeping and theft of…what equipment someone is wearing? That you could opt out kinda negated these complaints.

And to clarify my stance, I would opt out. If there is no option to do so, it's a No to this feature from me.

VoxAdActa · February 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There are tons of people who do not wish to look at outside resources. They want to play the game.

This is the strangest form of extreme roleplaying I have yet encountered. The knowledge is right there, a few mouse clicks away, just like they like it... but they refuse to seek it? Because... why?

They want it. It's available. It's free. It's freely offered. But they turn it down out of... what? Pique? Stubbornness?

My dear friend Mr. Horse, the water is right here, at your feet. Please, for the love of the Eight Divines, I beseech you to drink it.

And if they can't do that in a game, they'll go to one where they can.

Like what?

Even Hades 2 requires outside research to reach the top levels. Even Super Mario Brothers has hidden mechanics and tactics that require either outside research or repeated trial and error. Even checkers has a strategy wiki. Good luck finding any game that doesn't reward outside research with access to the upper tiers of success.

VoxAdActa · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

To wit: Your “build” isn’t special, nor is your gear.

Then you don't need a brand new, invasive, game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

sans-culottes · February 12

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

To wit: Your “build” isn’t special, nor is your gear.

Then you don't need a brand new, invasive, game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

How is it “invasive” to be able to see, say, what armor or weapon someone is using? This argument concerns me because it is a bit of an overreaction to a feature most other games in this genre have.

VoxAdActa · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

To wit: Your “build” isn’t special, nor is your gear.

Then you don't need a brand new, invasive, game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

How is it “invasive” to be able to see, say, what armor or weapon someone is using? This argument concerns me because it is a bit of an overreaction to a feature most other games in this genre have.

I am quite familiar with the debate tactic of focusing on a single word the other person says and spinning it off into its own argument, as a way of deflecting from the main thrust of the point.

So let me rephrase, then, to avoid starting a a whole new subject that goes off into the weeds and obscures the primary topic:

You don't need a brand new invasive game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

loosej · February 12

I personally think such a feature would be a lot less useful than you might expect.

First of all, gear is only part of the total build. If you want to know a player's setup, you need to know the cp they have slotted, how their attribute points are distributed, and even what front and back bar abilities they are using (as those will affect the passive skills). Would all that information be included in this hypothetical new feature?

Secondly (currently only a pc thing), you can switch between entire builds with a single key press, meaning that by the time you look at their build it might look completely different.

Finally, and I'd argue most importantly, in most cases it's not the gear that kills you but the skill difference. What matters is knowing when to block, when to dodge, when to los, having an escape plan ready, having your burst memorized and recognizing when you have an opening to execute it...

If you're copying a build and expect it will make you better at pvp, you're likely to be very disappointed. When I first started to pvp I tried some builds I'd seen on youtube, but none of them ever worked. What did help me a lot was hearing why the build was set up the way it was, and how it was supposed to be used. Using that knowledge I'm now able to create my own builds that fit my playstyle, and to be honest I could make most gear sets work, even the underperforming ones (I'm not a sweaty top player, but I'm competent enough to leave cyrodiil with more killing blows than deaths on the counter most of the time). But you can't gain that knowledge from an inspect feature. You can however get it from already existing resources.

sans-culottes · February 12

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

VoxAdActa wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

To wit: Your “build” isn’t special, nor is your gear.

Then you don't need a brand new, invasive, game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

How is it “invasive” to be able to see, say, what armor or weapon someone is using? This argument concerns me because it is a bit of an overreaction to a feature most other games in this genre have.

I am quite familiar with the debate tactic of focusing on a single word the other person says and spinning it off into its own argument, as a way of deflecting from the main thrust of the point.

So let me rephrase, then, to avoid starting a a whole new subject that goes off into the weeds and obscures the primary topic:

You don't need a brand new invasive game system. You already have access to the information you seek, plus a mountain of more information you'd need to make that information useful.

You can try to ascribe these motivations to me all you want, but that doesn’t make any of them true. “Invasive” is a key term here, and “invasive” is the crux of why you and others seem to oppose this. Focusing on it being redundant information is objectively false and, if anything, a bit of a red herring.

Since one DOES NOT have access to, say, seeing what other people have equipped, it doesn’t make sense to say that all relevant information already exists. It’s also a bit odd to claim that being able to see that you’re wearing x sabatons is not relevant or that one already has this information. Or, you know, that this is an invasion of privacy.

VoxAdActa · February 12

sans-culottes wrote: »

You can try to ascribe these motivations to me all you want, but that doesn’t make any of them true. “Invasive” is a key term here, and “invasive” is the crux of why you and others seem to oppose this. Focusing on it being redundant information is objectively false and, if anything, a bit of a red herring.

I'm starting to feel like you're not engaging in good faith here. I'm opposing it for a wide variety of already-expressed reasons that feel like they're being ignored in favor of the one reason you feel strongest attacking.

Since one DOES NOT have access to, say, seeing what other people have equipped, it doesn’t make sense to say that all relevant information already exists.

It does exist. On hundreds of youtube channels and websites devoted to informing players about the not-special very-common meta builds being used in every possible ESO activity, with up-to-date tweaks and revisions every time a patch drops on the PTS. It's just a click away.

It’s also a bit odd to claim that being able to see that you’re wearing x sabatons is not relevant or that one already has this information.

You've already admitted you will learn nothing new or surprising from this mechanic. What sabatons I'm wearing is pretty irrelevant to any of the purposes you've proposed this new mechanic will fill. It won't teach you how to PvP better, it won't reveal any hidden counterplay, and they will be from the same 4 or 5 viable sabaton options that everyone else is wearing.

I'm starting to think maybe it should be added just to prove that there's no such thing as a Top Secret Best Build created by a Vague-yet-Menacing ESO fraternity. You're going to be very disappointed that, after all this energy and work, you're seeing nothing helpful and learning nothing that wasn't already out in public in the open.

It really feels like you just want it because you want it, and all the reasons why are being added in post-hoc.