There are 3 main reasons^ people do normal dungeons, correct?
1) Questing
2) Get the skill point
3) Get the transmutes from a random normal OR get the keys from a pledge, and thus speed-running

These three things are often incompatible. And Speed-running can essentially veto people Questing and Skill Pointing by pulling people into the final encounter without their consent.

Until ZoS decouples Questing and Skill Pointing from Speed Running, these issues will continue.

Please, post in Post in Dev Team Request: A Top 5 List of Bugs and Pain Points You Would Like Addressed. The more people do, the better chance they'll believe that this is a major pain point.

^plenty of other reasons, but those are the three that show up here in the forums most often. Farming for gear being the most obvious, but that can be done in 1) 2) or 3), and isn't vetoed by 3).

Imza wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Please give us a Story Mode that can be done solo or in a group- no rewards required or expected - just the ability to do the story and gain the skill point.
Then remove the skill point from the group dungeon!

Without some form of reward system the mode will basically be left abandoned...while I don't expect the exact same rearwards a Ticket system that could be traded for halfway decent sets would attract a lot of traffic to the Dungeons and Trials

The exciting part of this however is that they could really do something significant with a Dungeon story mode you can begin doing regular quest which will lead you to the Dungeon story....that would make the entire game much more dynamic.

The reward is the skill point!

I agree I think just acquiring the skill point and playing through the story like an overland quest is its own reward (some of those quests act like they are an overland quest like the vanilla ones). In previous posts on the topic I've always said I am for a story mode not because I can't do dungeons or because I want this to be a pure solo game but because you cannot hear the FULLY VOICED dialogue when you have 3 other group members rushing ahead to finish the dungeon. It makes it impossible to see all the dialogue options especially if you enjoy questing in general. I wouldn't give out gear and I would possibly reduce the gold drop a bit but other than that I think every player should get the chance to at least experience the story ounce and when they get the chance to level up another character they can still do the story mode to get a quick set of skill points without the social problems that come with running randomly with others.

With pugs, you have to go with the flow, though I agree that it's annoying when you get a speedrunner, especially when they skip bosses that you need for a pledge, which can happen in Darkshade Caverns 1, for example. Fortunately engaging with that boss pulls the group to the encounter, even if they're engaging the mini-boss that comes right after it.

Or when they skip required mechanics and then you're stuck at a door, unable to get it open until you've killed everything they dragged behind them, or worse, figure out what mechanic was skipped. That happened to me once - forget the dungeon. The one where it says "X found the blighted host" or something. Took us 10 minutes to get that door open due to a speedrunner.

Anyway, I take what I get with pugs. Most are great, but there are a few that are irritating for sure.

As far as questing goes, I'm never sure what someone is expecting when they type that into chat. If it's just to give them a chance to engage with an NPC to quickly move the quest to the next step, I get that and I will wait. I'll also wait at the end to make sure they've been able to turn in the quest. But if it's to listen to all the dialogue, nope. Pugging isn't the right place for that. You have 5-10 seconds to get to the next step and then I'm gone (usually chasing after the other group members, who are already gone). There are a lot of great PvE guilds out there. If you want to listen to everything, join one.

Imza wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Imza wrote: »

Please give us a Story Mode that can be done solo or in a group- no rewards required or expected - just the ability to do the story and gain the skill point.
Then remove the skill point from the group dungeon!

Without some form of reward system the mode will basically be left abandoned...while I don't expect the exact same rearwards a Ticket system that could be traded for halfway decent sets would attract a lot of traffic to the Dungeons and Trials

The exciting part of this however is that they could really do something significant with a Dungeon story mode you can begin doing regular quest which will lead you to the Dungeon story....that would make the entire game much more dynamic.

The reward is the skill point!

Okay... but you're going to see post after post on the forum complaining about it. A lot of folks couldn't care less about Skill Points since they’re so plentiful in almost everything you do. A better alternative would be awarding both a Skill Point and a Ticket, which could be redeemed for items—giving players something meaningful to work toward. For example, three Tickets could be exchanged for a piece of Set Gear, which wouldn’t be a loss to anyone. Besides, no single group of players should dictate what another group does. We've had that in MMOs for years, and it needs to change.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

You stated “one should be able to get basic low level dungeon done”. Agreed. One can and should be able to solo it, avoiding what you posted.

I know that I could not solo dungeons while I was leveling up.

It's speed runners who should solo.

Speed Runners are often after transmute crystals, which are only acquired through group play.

People who want to hear the story can do so without the dungeon queue.

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

You stated “one should be able to get basic low level dungeon done”. Agreed. One can and should be able to solo it, avoiding what you posted.

I know that I could not solo dungeons while I was leveling up.

It's speed runners who should solo.

Speed Runners are after transmute crystals, which are only acquired through group play.

People who want to hear the story can do so without the dungeon queue.

The dungeon queue is a server wide general queue, not a special queue for people who want transmute stones. I am not opposed to ZOS making such a queue, but until then, I have to think that "least common denominator" rules should apply. Someone doing the story quest is not incompatible with someone who needs transmute crystals. The latter just needs to be patient.

EDIT: Oh... and never do Banished Cells.

The dungeon queue is not a special queue for those who want to hear the quest either. It's to help you fill a group. If you have a bunch of random people together to do a dungeon, they may not all share the same goal.

If the group doesn't want to kick the speedrunner and is following them, then the group has voted to speed run. I agree it's just basic courtesy to let someone grab a quest, but really that shouldn't even be on the other player. ZOS should have all the quests able to be done regardless of who is your teammate.

Elsonso wrote: »

In random normal dungeons, it is simply polite for both the quester to move it along, and for the speed runner to slow it down.

I agree it's nice and polite to for this to happen. Where we disagree is that players should have any obligation to do so. Questers should not have to speed past dialogue. Speedrunners shouldn't have to slow down. The dungeons aren't designed for how the playerbase actually engages with them.

I think there should be a story mode so questers can actually enjoy the whole quest.

I also think older group quests should have some small design adjustments so that nobody has to wait for the quester. Things like killing a boss automatically advancing the quest. I also want an auto pop up asking if someone wants the quest regardless of proximity to the quest giver once the cutscene plays. So that the quester does not need to wait for the cutscene.

This way these two groups of players aren't getting in each other's way so often. Let the queue be for group farming and let there be a solo quest mode for those who want to actually enjoy the fully voiced dialogue of the dungeons. Some of it is great and it's a shame people are missing it.

Speed runners are fulfilling their end of the bargain by merely finishing the dungeon. The activity finder does not promise a teammate will have the same goals or pace as you.

Saying they are just being selfish and working against the group presumes that the group doesn't also want to complete things quickly. Which is a huge assumption. In my experience, most players don't care and are happy to follow the pace of the tank.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Speed runners are fulfilling their end of the bargain by merely finishing the dungeon. The activity finder does not promise a teammate will have the same goals or pace as you.

Saying they are just being selfish and working against the group presumes that the group doesn't also want to complete things quickly. Which is a huge assumption. In my experience, most players don't care and are happy to follow the pace of the tank.

Random Dungeons were introduced to encourage players to fill empty slots to assist other players to complete their dungeon runs. There's an inherent agreement to that simply by queueing up for it. Speedrunners can rationalize their actions all they want, but that's all it really boils down to.

The playerbase as a whole is simply just incapable of etiquette or common courtesy. Never has, probably never will. Mainly because it's just too inconvenient for them.

Yes. Assist other players in its completion. That means killing the bosses as that's what counts as a completion. Any and everything else is determined by the goals of each individual group and they're all different. The reason vote to kick often fails on speedrunners is that there is a good portion of this playerbase who share the goal of getting the dungeon completed as fast as possible.

There's no right way to do a dungeon.

The other players are part of the content in an MMO. If a lunatic NPC sends players off on a wild goose-chase it is the most natural thing, but if a player exercises free will...

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

You stated “one should be able to get basic low level dungeon done”. Agreed. One can and should be able to solo it, avoiding what you posted.

My level 38 legit tank should be abl to solo? Interesting.

You actually probably can. I have nerve problems in my hand so my brain often tells my hand to do something and nothing happens. I've never tested higher than 20k on a dummy (Precursor). On a good day, I can get most roll dodges and ultimates to work. Normal days, I jump instead.

But I've managed to solo on normal most of the basic standard dungeons and even some of level 2 dungeons. It just takes forever and a companion or bear helps.

There is no issue with dungeon runs. The problem noted is about the randomness of players one can get when requesting a random group of players. That randomness involves a whole host of things, from the skill level of players to what they want out of the dungeon run.

I have said before and will say again that when asking for randomness, one should expect randomness. Anyone who wants to run a dungeon in a specific manner or avoid certain things must form the group beforehand to ensure that the run will go as desired.

So it is a choice.

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

...I am sick of this garbage behavior. Tired of being polite to rude selfish little idiots.

Same here, friend. Sometimes I try to rush ahead and engage the bosses these idiots skip to keep the run worthwhile. In my limited experience it takes the SAME amount of time to clear a dungeon as it does to skip. Sometimes it's faster as doing the content as intended doesn't have any of the problems that come from skipping bosses. Why leave all that loot behind? And what harm is there in helping questers get their quest?

FIX THIS ZOS!!!

spartaxoxo wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Grega wrote: »

You stated “one should be able to get basic low level dungeon done”. Agreed. One can and should be able to solo it, avoiding what you posted.

I know that I could not solo dungeons while I was leveling up.

It's speed runners who should solo.

Speed Runners are often after transmute crystals, which are only acquired through group play.

People who want to hear the story can do so without the dungeon queue.

People who just want to loot the bodies and chests and kill all the main bosses deserve transmutes too. And speeders, if they have their way *are* soloing. They will run to the end and finish the final boss without waiting for anyone. That's what joining encounter was meant to prevent. To prevent speeders from using the other members so they can get the only thing they are interested in, the transmutes. I would like ZOS to try removing all transmutes and see what happens. They won't, but even if it does reduce the number of players in dungeons at the least ones there want to be there. It would be a better experience for those of us who like the content.

It's not right to ignore players doing quests and speedrun a dungeon, it's also not realistic to expect other players to wait for you either, try doing it with a guild/friends, try using group finder instead of dungeon finder or even try using a solo build instead, you have 2 armory slots on every character.