Dungeon runs are worse than ever before

xosaara137ox · February 5

Sick of the “kick me” behavior. The number of fake tanks that queue in and instantly ask to be kicked is gross, and so many of them pull a temper tantrum and just swap characters when you don’t.

ruengdet2515 · February 5

Quest? Use group finder.
Run like hell? Use dungeon finder.
Sorry, I want Godspeed.

Gegensmith · February 5

I've often experienced the problem the original poster identified and want to challenge some of the assumptions voiced in subsequent remarks.

Firstly, if you join the dungeon finder as a healer, you are agreeing to play a particular role in the group. The players who run ahead of everyone else and solo the bosses aren't doing that. Frequently, doing so denies the rest of the group from obtaining loot from the bosses they kill -- not all of the bosses pull you into the encounter.

Secondly, when we complain about not being able to complete the quests, we're not talking about taking it real slow and savouring all the lovely voiced dialogue. We just mean: to complete the damn quest.

Thirdly, it IS possible to do something about this, if ZoS were willing to do so. Put it explicitly in terms of service. Add a system of reporting about running ahead of the rest of the group. If a player accumulates, say, x6 complaints about this from x6 different players in a given week, give the offending player a week's ban. That would soon change the behaviour.

Suggesting that players should solo it, use the group finder instead, use a guild instead, etc. avoid the fact that, as the original poster identified, it dissuades a LOT of players -- especially newer players -- from using the dungeon finder.

Sure, it's random by nature, but you are agreeing to something when you queue. Make that agreement explicit and punish those who ignore it and the problem will soon vanish.

L33T_BEANS · February 5

I got all the dungeon achievements/gear already, so I have no reason to go back to that cesspit of noobery we call LFG Queue.

But I'll tell you that if you just have a tank and one good DD friend, you can almost always carry the other two morons, no matter how hard they try to throw the run. Just don't bother reviving them, it's actually a DPS loss half the time.

If they spam your chat with whispers asking why, you can just be honest and tell them so, or just say you're out of soul gems if you don't feel like arguing with them.

Besides, if you play with a friend, they can't democratically vote you out. It's a checkmate.

Tenn60 · February 5

if you rely on group finder that’s what you are signing up for. I’ve never gone into a random or a pug trial with high expectations. I remember when there wasn’t any form of group finder or text chat(at least on console I don’t know how long pc had text chat) and if you wanted to run dungeons or trials you either had to get into a guild or get lucky enough to run into people that you connected with and ran things. That’s the only way you’ll solve that issue is to remove the group finder and force people to be social, there is no system that doesn’t have the potential to be abused if you tried to implement it. Want people to be able to report someone if they are rude during a dungeon? What about people that will use that to threaten people into giving them gear they want(I’ve seen people threaten like removals from guilds and other things if someone didn’t trade them an item they wanted). Want AI to judge if your armor sets are appropriate for your role? What about people that are just starting out and they want to be a tank but don’t have the right sets, or theory crafters that may try out a build that isn’t your typical tank or healer set up. Want a story mode with no gear? You would have the same people saying they are fine losing out on the rewards complaining that it isn’t fair they don’t get the gear. My point is there isn’t a great answer, if you want to do group stuff you live with the group finder gamble or bite the bullet and talk to a few people and get you something more consistent. Just like anyone you can play this game however you want but it is an mmo and it isn’t “your” game so it’s never going to be at a point that everybody plays the way you want them too.

Ryori729 · February 5

The main point is how often does speeding make things faster? I have had PUGs I could have done faster solo because the speeder just scattered the mobs all over the place. But solo doesn’t give me the random bonus.

The other issue I have is that often the speeder seems to need us more than we need them. If the speeder is nuking stuff, great. But that seems to be rare and most seem to have speced for running and that’s about it. Had a dual Weald “tank” to stop and complain about the damage. I was on a baby so yeah, my DPS was bad, but I actually had to spam heal the guy while he was complaining. His damage wasn’t great either.

But as long as the dungeons have rewards then I don’t know there is much we can do but actually kick the people who think it is their run. But people won’t do it. Had a guy pull the final boss in Wayrest then run over to the zombies. I mean why speed run if you go out of your way to slow things down?

So I don’t get why so many defend the speeder because in my experience most don’t result in faster runs, just messy ones.

Jimbru · February 6

Same problems that have been going on for years. I've thought for a long time that the queue should reject fakes (I have hopes for AI in that area) and the game should punish dungeon rushers somehow; get too far ahead of your group and Sheogorath laughs and Wabbajacks you into a turtle until your group catches up. "Not so fast! There, that's better! HAHAHA!"

valenwood_vegan · February 6

Kahnak wrote: »

[snip]

So do you actually have a proposed solution to share? All I see are complaints about what other people are saying. I mean offer it up, maybe zos will implement it. Though there have been almost weekly threads like this for years now and as far as I know, they've never responded or solicited feedback or given any indication that fixing the woes of the random dungeon queue is a priority for them.

In the meantime, the best way to get a specific outcome from a dungeon is through the tools that are currently available - to kick the bad apples; or join a guild, find some friends, use the group finder, and form a group with like minded people who share the same goal. Sorry this isn't helpful, but people on the forums can't change how the game works and it's not our fault that it works the way it does.

[edited to remove quote]

Delimber · February 6

What I encountered in the Group Finder last week was a couple players who stated in the description that they where looking to do a dungeon and do the quest so it'd be a slow run.

Since I was board AF from killing bosses I jumped in on the run and had a good time.

Group Finder might be the best way for Dungeon questers to get what they are looking for, but I get it, there are no shortage of trolls who just want to ruin someone else's day in game.

I also learned I've been relying on my Pale Order ring to carry me... a lot

blktauna · February 6

Ryori729 wrote: »

The other issue I have is that often the speeder seems to need us more than we need them. If the speeder is nuking stuff, great. But that seems to be rare and most seem to have speced for running and that’s about it. Had a dual Weald “tank” to stop and complain about the damage. I was on a baby so yeah, my DPS was bad, but I actually had to spam heal the guy while he was complaining. His damage wasn’t great either.

in this instance I do not heal and leave them dead. The rest of us can carry on at a reasonable pace.

frogthroat · February 6

For the "lul kik me" comment I would have responded "ok" and done just that.

But otherwise there are different sides to everything. For many RND is a method of getting transmute crystals and want to do it quickly. They don't want to wait when someone RPs Fungal Grotto 1 for half an hour when they could get the transmute crystals in 4 minutes.

Most of the base game dungeons have been fixed to work like DLC dungeons, so you can just pick up the quest and return it at the end. No need to do any steps along the way. (But there are still some quests that do break.)

For actually listening to the dungeon stories, I would recommend getting a group for that. Either from finder, friends or guildies. You will not find people willing to do this in RND. Story mode and repeatable dungeon stories wouldn't be a bad idea.

That being said, this fake healer does sound insufferable. Sure, especially if I run after transmutes with pugs as a (real) support, I appreciate fast damage dealers. I want the dungeon to be over quickly so I get my transmutes. But if one player is clearly more of a nuisance than help - ninja pulling ahead, scattering trash mobs when we have a tank, not being able to solo what they pull but still not ressing, then that becomes an issue. And sometimes makes it slower than not speedrunning. In normal dungeons the tactics don't matter that much. But still, only pull what you can solo, or wait for the tank.

If everyone else are dead, they are not playing. If you can't nuke the boss down quickly, you are making others just sit there waiting. So while I don't say you should wait for someone to listen to every line of dialog when all you want is the transmutes, you don't need to be the other extreme either.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

What backtrack? You couldn't get to a point requiring a backtrack, as the boss wouldn't spawn until all players with an active quest are in the boss' area/arena. Anybody who speeds ahead will just have to wait.

If 3 players are after quick transmutes and you stay behind listening to dialog delaying the boss spawn, how long do you think it would take before there is vote to kick? Good or bad, this would be what would start to happen.

allochthons wrote: »

There are 3 main reasons^ people do normal dungeons, correct?
1) Questing
2) Get the skill point
3) Get the transmutes from a random normal OR get the keys from a pledge, and thus speed-running

These three things are often incompatible. And Speed-running can essentially veto people Questing and Skill Pointing by pulling people into the final encounter without their consent.

And gear, mainly from the last boss.

Questing is the only odd one out. If you are only after the skill point, you want to get to the end quickly to hand over the quest and get the skill point. Base game dungeons work nowadays like DLC dungeons so no need to actually do them. So those who are after skill points, transmutes and/or dungeon weapons all want to get to the end as fast as possible. Questers are the only ones who want to take their time.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

It's speed runners who should solo.

That would be awesome if you could get the transmutes as a solo. But it would require ZOS to remove some hard limits (some of which have workarounds) in dungeons like Direfrost Keep (standing on the plates), Fungal Grotto 2 (first boss pin mechanic can be done with AOEs, but the Spawn of Mephala requires so precise tricks to avoid pulling into the cave which resets the boss that it's not feasible), ICP gates, Wayrest 2 pin (or make Precog work there)...

Amottica · February 7

joergino wrote: »

Speed runs only exist in veteran dungeons, so I don't quite understand what they have to do with obliterating any chances of getting a quest done for players in the random normal dungeon queue.

@joergino

Speed runs exist in normal and vet dungeons. The difficulty is irrelevant when players want to clear the dungeon quickly, get the daily reward, and move on. Many players do random daily runs to achieve this goal.

Hope that clears things up.

SeveN085 · February 7

Dungeons runs are better than ever before. I noticed that ever since they added AI chat moderation people are now afraid to chat and complain. I can just rush in peace and no one's bothering me

Kram8ion · February 7

Wait u guys are getting into random dungeons?
Australia 40 minutes 😒

Xarc · February 7

If this is a dungeon from basic normal game, you can solo it (or with a friend or a companion) in normal mode. So you can take your time and do quests, etc.

If this is a DLC dungeon, normal mode is like veteran mode. The problem is here because Zenimax decided it.
get good and you can solo normal dungeons (to do that, come in by the door, in tamriel)

ofc you wont have the reward to do it with random players, but do you want quest or xp?

On one hand ESO forces you to play with others to complete some things, but on the other hand some players are annoying and disrespectful. That's humanity.

Belegnole · February 7

A single speed runner is just being a jerk. Vote, kick, and move on.

Dragonnord · February 7

You expect someone that did the dungeon 1.000 times to wait for a quester?

You join a RANDOM group and expect things to not go random?

If you don't want random things happening go with friends, ask in zone chat to form a questing group, ask in your guild and go with guildmates, ask in Discord and form a group there, use the Group Tool to create a specific group for dungeon questing, etc.

You have SEVERAL ways to go into a dungeon in a NO RANDOM way, however, you join a random group and expect and demand that people behave the way you want.

ZOS_Icy · February 7

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

madman65 · February 7

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

I hope ESO is taking all of the comments into consideration to find a fix, looks like ESO has it`s work cut out. Thank you everyone for you honesty!

pecheckler · February 7

Players who sprint to the end of dungeons and force others to teleport to each boss encounter are the ones who should be kicked for ruining it for others.

Sarannah · February 7

Dragonnord wrote: »

You expect someone that did the dungeon 1.000 times to wait for a quester?

You join a RANDOM group and expect things not to go random?

If you don't want random things happening go with friends, ask in zone chat to form a questing group, ask in your guild and go with guildmates, ask in Discord and form a group there, use the Group Tool to create a specific group for dungeon questing, etc.

You have SEVERAL ways to go into a dungeon in a NO RANDOM way, however, you join a random group and expect and demand that people behave the way you want.

1: The group format isn't random! The group has pre-chosen roles, which some players are purposely not fulfilling. (the dungeon itself is random)
2: Yes, players should wait for a quester in NORMAL dungeons. This is the bare minimum players should expect in a random normal: A new player doing their quest. The game should enforce this, luckily newer dungeons already do this(ZOS should revisit older dungeons to do the same).
3: It is those who want to speedrun or do NOT want to perform their chosen role that should go with friends/guilds/groupfinder. As these are the ones not actually wanting to play in a group!
4: Speedrunners and fake roles have several ways to run a dungeon in their own way, but they choose to enforce their way upon three other players. Making many dungeon runs into a toxic happening/experience for three other players at the same time, especially for new and inexperienced players.

allochthons wrote: »

There are 3 main reasons^ people do normal dungeons, correct?
1) Questing
2) Get the skill point
3) Get the transmutes from a random normal OR get the keys from a pledge, and thus speed-running

To add to that list, personally I'm a number 4 type of player: Running dungeons for actual fun! In any mmo I have ever played, as a real gamer I have always loved running dungeons for fun, not just for the reward(s) at the end. Used to love this in ESO as well, until it became this toxic mess we have now. I miss the time where gamers actually played games for their enjoyment, instead of only rushing to the reward(s) at the finishline.
Don't get me wrong, I want dungeons done fast/quick as well. But in a non-toxic normal game playing way: Killing all mobs and bosses we encounter, looting all chests and heavy sacks, and doing the quest.

In any MMO that I have played, I have always been the tank. Love playing that role, and helping others at the same time. Something that will probably never change. Hopefully I can some day do this in ESO again as well, when the toxicity is fixed.

PS: Fake roles/speedrunners do not shorten the queue, they cause the other three players to encounter multiple queue's when the dungeon fails because of them or if they random a DLC dungeon and instantly leave. Causing multiple queues for multiple other players at the same time. This is why I consider fake roles and speedrunners to be toxic, and hamful to the game and playerbase's overal longterm health.

spartaxoxo · February 8

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: Fake roles/speedrunners do not shorten the queue, they cause the other three players to encounter multiple queue's when the dungeon fails because of them or if they random a DLC dungeon and instantly leave. Causing multiple queues for multiple other players at the same time. This is why I consider fake roles and speedrunners to be toxic, and hamful to the game and playerbase's overal longterm health.

This assumes that most speed runs fail. But, most are successful or the speed runners wouldn't be doing it because they wouldn't be getting any of the rewards they are doing it for.

Failed runs exists in any game. But, the more people queueing for a variety of roles, the shorter the queue times.

Orbital78 · February 8

If they updated the vanilla quests to update easier without all the mini dialogue stops, that would help.

OnnuK · February 8

In low-level normal dungeons, it's often difficult to complete quests because groups tend to rush ahead to the bosses. I always ask if anyone is on a quest, but this isn't a reliable solution.

My suggestion is to implement a 'Queuing for Quests' checkbox before entering the dungeon. If a player enables this option, it should be impossible to initiate a boss fight unless all four members of the group are present. This would prevent other players from skipping content and allow everyone to complete their quests together.

This would greatly improve the dungeon experience for questing players.

SeveN085 · February 8

Sarannah wrote: »

3: It is those who want to speedrun or do NOT want to perform their chosen role that should go with friends/guilds/groupfinder. As these are the ones not actually wanting to play in a group!

Not really. It's the questers who have problem with speedruners and are constantly complaining, not the other way around. Therefore it's logical that questers are the ones who should be using group finder instead of dungeon finder.

AzuraFan · February 8

OnnuK wrote: »

In low-level normal dungeons, it's often difficult to complete quests because groups tend to rush ahead to the bosses. I always ask if anyone is on a quest, but this isn't a reliable solution.

My suggestion is to implement a 'Queuing for Quests' checkbox before entering the dungeon. If a player enables this option, it should be impossible to initiate a boss fight unless all four members of the group are present. This would prevent other players from skipping content and allow everyone to complete their quests together.

This would greatly improve the dungeon experience for questing players.

Improve it for questing players but potentially ruin it for everyone else. Your idea would work if ALL the players in the group had that box checked. So if you're in the queue, you would have to wait for three other players who wanted to quest. Otherwise I don't see why one player's needs should take precedence.

I get that speedrunning is annoying. But putting the needs of questers above everyone else isn't the solution.

Dragonnord · February 8

Sarannah wrote: »

1: The group format isn't random! The group has pre-chosen roles...

So? The roles have nothing to do here, what it has to do is the fact that you are playing with RANDOM people, so things will go random.

Don't want random? Don't go random. You can't control nor give orders to people. This is not the military.

Questers have the right to quest, speedruners have the right to speedrun. There are no signs in the entrance of the dungeon that says how it must done.

Questing and speedrunning are in the exact the same level. Both are valid.

I don't understand why some people think that questing should have priority over ANY other way of going through a dungeon.

Ryori729 · March 21

>> Questing and speedrunning are in the exact the same level. Both are valid.

As it happened again today, I would ask the question of what do you mean by "valid". I guess I should also ask what you mean by speed running - because I rarely see speed when I see people run.

Today the speeder was a healer. Apparently an actual healer as they didn't seem to have much DPS. Is it valid if you need the other people to execute your playstyle? If you can't kill the mobs, then you are only spreading them around as they run all over the hallways and making progress slower. I was on an alt account with no CP and the healer just stayed alive till I got there. Not a brag - just a geared arcanist so it kinda melts things in a base dungeon.

And unfortunately you can force others to your playstyle if you speed. Because it draws people to the fight when you trigger the boss.

If the player could have cleared the thing solo and I just collect my reward in 5 minutes then great. But instead it was a forced carry. So it wasn't a speed run or a quest run. It was just a slow run where we couldn't do the quest.

I agree that I shouldn't force people to wait on me for the quest. But in that same way I also don't feel that one person should dictate the speed of the run. Not like shaving a few seconds off in a normal queue gets you anything. And in my experience, it has been rare that the speeder was able to speed it without the full group..

So for the majority of my experience with ESO, waiting a bit for a quester wastes less time than running around with no plan and having to go back and kill the mob stuck on a wall so we can get out of combat and get thru the door. If you can solo it fast and want to carry me, then I will ride those coat tails. If you want to ride my coat tails and do things your way you are just a crappy human being.

SpiritofESO · March 21

Kram8ion wrote: »

Wait u guys are getting into random dungeons?
Australia 40 minutes 😒

As a tank -- a REAL tank, for your own personal dignity by the way -- almost instantly.

As a healer -- a REAL healer, for your own personal dignity by the way -- quickly.

As DPS, real or fake or weak -- takes a while.

Orbital78 · March 22

SpiritofESO wrote: »

Kram8ion wrote: »

Wait u guys are getting into random dungeons?
Australia 40 minutes 😒

As a tank -- a REAL tank, for your own personal dignity by the way -- almost instantly.

As a healer -- a REAL healer, for your own personal dignity by the way -- quickly.

As DPS, real or fake or weak -- takes a while.

I actually had to queue as dps to get instant queue pops today. It was funny, as I ended up tanking anyways. Idc really, I got my skill points for that support/makeshift dps.