The zerg fights feel like soldiers in an army fighting it out as opposed to a ball group exploiting flawed game mechanics. In Vengeance, a group's success will be about communicating target focus, positioning and grouping instead of spamming AoE shields and "steamrolling" players with outlier sets at maximum HP. Anything is better than lazy unkillable ball groups.

Reminds me that the Catapult not being included made things a bit difficult. I'd like to see that Siege Weapon implemented somehow. Its very nice for dealing with a large number of players or NPC guards.

@ZOS_Kevin

Bug found: Zoning into a Delve in Cyrodiil re-equips any gear you had equipped before entering cyro (I had taken everything off prior to entering the delve). Additionally if you kill a boss within the Delve you gain the Blessing of War buff (AP buff) but upon leaving the delve (I left via the door and via death) the buff is lost.

Bug: Forward camps can no longer be placed once you have placed one camp (until it is destroyed)

Bug: Clicking on skills in the 'Skill Advisor' opens up the skill lines of those skills, you can't slot anything but it might confuse some players. - Weirdly those skill lines are capped at 20 instead of 50. Is the plan to level squish the skills?
Bug: When trying to exit cyrodiil via the wayshrine you can only see the wayshrines for the DLC zones you own as the main zones have been reset due the templated character.
Question: Why is there no infinite keep recall stone?
Question: Why is Guild guard kills messaging still on? surely that must cause some calculation lag trying to work out the player counts and how many guards they killed?
Question: Why have AOE caps been brought back in? The community spent years trying to show why this is a bad system - This just encourages zerg stacking because there is no threat due to the smart healing vs dumb damage. So now whoever has the biggest zerg will win.
Question: As NPC's cannot be interacted with, how will the Golden vendor work, double rewards the week after?

Bug/Question: Why was the support passive to increase range not included in the skills at baseline? you basically have to be against the wall to hit people on it now.

Bug: Recasting Vengeance Sun Shield didn't apply a shield to me, I still lost health instead of the shield being damaged. It's hard to tell if this is a visual error or not as I didn't let myself die but please investigate.

Bug/Question: What is the role of weapons? Sword and Board doesn't add to armour, neither does Ice staff, is it just Cosmetic / which resource is recovered?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin

Bug found: Zoning into a Delve in Cyrodiil re-equips any gear you had equipped before entering cyro (I had taken everything off prior to entering the delve). Additionally if you kill a boss within the Delve you gain the Blessing of War buff (AP buff) but upon leaving the delve (I left via the door and via death) the buff is lost.

I don't think this behavior with Delves is really a bug. Delves, while entered through Cyrodiil, aren't technically "in" the campaign. It used to be that to leave a delve and go back into Cyrodiil you would actually end up getting stuck queueing into the campaign if it was full, they eventually (mostly) fixed this, but they're still not really inside the campaign proper. Still, considering that you can engage in PVP combat inside the delves, this behavior should probably be looked at. If it's not possible to apply the Vengeance ruleset, maybe making the inside of the delves non-PVP enabled for this test.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So that we can try and get back on track, we checked in with the team for an order of operations for this test, between PTS and the Live test in March. So hopefully this will help and we can get back to the core feedback needed for this portion of the test.

• Functionality on the PTS server is first and the goal of that is to make sure we can provide the best play experience when this goes to the live server in March.
• We look at the data from the PTS functionality test to ensure things are working properly for the live test.
• If everything looks good, we move on to the test on the live server.
• After the test on the live server is done, we shut down Vengeance and review the data.
• Next steps will be determined based on the data. Nothing else related to the test will immediately go into the live game, including any Vengeance Class/Skill kits.
• We will share next steps once we evaluate the data.

Thnx Kevin and the rest of ZOS. Revealing the scheduled plan is pretty cool.

I have to say I don't understand the reluctance to participate in the Vengeance performance test. We have all been complaining for the last 10 years about the performance. Here is our chance to participate in debugging Cyro. I play a Templar, my only toon. I do not expect to have a single kill during this test because Templars suck. But I am in there testing. One of our colleagues has suggested that we all meet Thursdays between 9:00 - 11:00 PM EST to stress the servers. Hell - (Kevin, this is where you need to cover your eyes and not read the next part) : I MIGHT create a macro to fire all my weapons in rapid succession to see if I can help crash the servers. (OK Kevin you can keep reading now.)

You guys need to get in there, both PTS and Live Servers, and see if the data we produce will help bring back the day when we had HUNDREDS of players per faction, this time without lag. Remember those fights? They were awesome.

I get that the point of this is to measure the impact that these changes have on performance. But as someone who has been here for the entirety of the game's life cycle, through every promise and test, here are my concerns.

First, the stated goal of this project is for zenimax to be able to "reach launch level population caps", allowing exponentially more players to be in the campaign at once (likely 5x the caps we have in place now, based on our estimations). There aren't this many people queuing for PVP on any given night anymore. This new system, with all of it's flaws, isn't going to suddenly inspire 5x the number of players to jump into PVP - in fact, I'd be surprised if there was any net positive population gain whatsoever given the full removal of buildcraft, skill decisions, etc. This is concerning because it gives an air of pointlessness to the entirety of the project - why gut the entire build/combat system to allow for a playerbase that doesn't exist?

Second, the environment would require HEAVY balancing from a combat team who plays PVP at a reasonable skill level. I'm not trying to suggest that all developers need to be skilled at the game, but an environment as simple as this needs to be balanced to work well, and people who do not have an in-depth understanding of PVP will not be able to do that. This is concerning because historically zenimax has never given us a reason to believe they listen to or care about player feedback in regards to balance changes, and the only PVP representation we've ever seen from zenimax in the form of the recent live stream was... lacking. If this environment comes into the game in as limited a state as it is, along with being poorly balanced, you can be damn sure this won't be played by anybody and will very likely kill off whatever small playerbase you have left on the PVP side of the game. If you are going to take real, tangible steps to ensure this environment is well balanced then lay those plans out for us, or we will assume the worst - because the worst has almost always been the case when it comes to PVP balance, historically.

I played this environment for a few hours, and I have to say it was the most painfully boring PVP I've had on this game in some time. Things are too simplified, the balance is atrocious, and there is no individual flavor or skill expression to be had. While I certainly think there is potential for a more limited environment where people don't have access to nearly as many heals, sustain, or free damage - this iteration falls incredibly short of being that. If this is what zenimax plans on investing their time into during 2025, I don't see the point in hanging around. I'm not confident that anything positive will come of it and I'm not going to just hang around for another year at probably the lowest point ever for this game's PVP while zenimax goes into year 7 or 8 of "just testing things out". I'm sorry, but the good faith was spent long ago and this project as well as the general tone we're seeing regarding it from the CMs and developers does not inspire any confidence whatsoever.

One thing I would like to address more is the sustain issues on pts.

Pre-Hybridization you also had to manage your sustain more because overblocking and running out of stam would inevitably lead to you getting stun locked and that was pretty much a death sentence without the readily available burst heals. This is different on pts where your stam is almost never strained. (unless you are playing something like sorc with dark deal). Fights in generally aren't won because someone got hit with a great combo but because someone ran out of Mag sustain which slows down the pacing of the fights after the first 20 seconds.

I understand this isn't a balance feedback thread but perhaps some early/initial feedback might make its way into later tests.

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

1) I understand this is a test, Zos did not focus on balancing the skills, just grabbed bare-bones class skills for people

2) Skills should still be adjusted slightly before live because people will be put off by some classes and not want to participate

3) Offer a big incentive. Idk what, but make it big enough that you draw a crowd. Crown crates? Style pages? A costume that says "I survived the Great Test of 2025"? The much requested KEEP House???? You need to get and keep disillusioned pvpers, and pvers that don't care about Cyrodiil.

Bottom line: many people, myself included, have participated on PTS in good faith and felt ignored when reporting everyothing from serious balance concerns to game-breaking bugs. Many people, myself included, participated in the weeks-long PVP performance testing a few years ago that resulted in several months of hell via no healing outside of group.

We are tired. We lack faith in the system. Trying to guilt or shame us into participating will not work. Give us a carrot, a REAL carrot and not the same "we are working on performance" carrot we've been getting for years and still haven't seen.

THAT SAID I too cannot figure out the gear, and why we have it. Skills all worked as expected, didn't crash, character zoned in and out as expected.

Not being able to dismiss my notifications or mail was VERY annoying, 0/10, working as expected or nah?

I don't think any of those skill variants will make it to a non test environment, if what Kevin is saying above accurately represents everything.

ZOS is literally trying to see how deep the code deficit they were supposed to fix 4 years ago actually is, and they're doing that by stripping every single calculation they can out of cyrodiil and throwing in as many people as they can and seeing what happens.

People saying they need to balance this skill or that skill are focusing on a forest ecosystem while zos is only trying to measure the square footage of the forest. The trees haven't even been planted yet.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DrGIggles80 wrote: »

...

There seems to be a misunderstanding here about the test. The point of this test is purely for the sake of performance, and getting calculations as low as possible on the server. So eliminating one or two things at a time will not help in the data we are trying to gather. This test for March as of right now, is purely for performance data on the live server so that we have a baseline when exploring pathways to improve Cyrodiil. That is also why we mentioned that class and skill balance is not a focus here. Because that is still several steps ahead of where we are, especially for a test that will last one week.

With the way you have done it now. I doubt many will play in the test. I was excited for this test but who ever is in charge has changed it too much. They've gone and distracted the community with balance far worse then live.

Set stats/gear are good.
No cp is good.
No proc is good.
New skills that align with nothing in live is bad.

Just make the class skill lines as they are, with their morphs to chose from. No class passives. Eliminate all other skills lines and their passives.

The test needs to be inviting and have familiarity. It currently is not.

silky_soft wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

DrGIggles80 wrote: »

...

There seems to be a misunderstanding here about the test. The point of this test is purely for the sake of performance, and getting calculations as low as possible on the server. So eliminating one or two things at a time will not help in the data we are trying to gather. This test for March as of right now, is purely for performance data on the live server so that we have a baseline when exploring pathways to improve Cyrodiil. That is also why we mentioned that class and skill balance is not a focus here. Because that is still several steps ahead of where we are, especially for a test that will last one week.

With the way you have done it now. I doubt many will play in the test. I was excited for this test but who ever is in charge has changed it too much. They've gone and distracted the community with balance far worse then live.

Set stats/gear are good.
No cp is good.
No proc is good.
New skills that align with nothing in live is bad.

Just make the class skill lines as they are, with their morphs to chose from. No class passives. Eliminate all other skills lines and their passives.

The test needs to be inviting and have familiarity. It currently is not.

You dont understand the point of the test, the current skills are what they are testing....... they cant use the current skills......the current skills are a part of the problem

React wrote: »

If this is what zenimax plans on investing their time into during 2025, I don't see the point in hanging around.

Good thing then that it isn't. Or at least, they have not said or implied it. Not does this approach betray such intentions. It is obviously a bare-bones implementation of PvP, which is consistent with what they say it is for (testing max capacity of players).

React wrote: »

I get that the point of this is to measure the impact that these changes have on performance. But as someone who has been here for the entirety of the game's life cycle, through every promise and test, here are my concerns.

First, the stated goal of this project is for zenimax to be able to "reach launch level population caps", allowing exponentially more players to be in the campaign at once (likely 5x the caps we have in place now, based on our estimations). There aren't this many people queuing for PVP on any given night anymore. This new system, with all of it's flaws, isn't going to suddenly inspire 5x the number of players to jump into PVP - in fact, I'd be surprised if there was any net positive population gain whatsoever given the full removal of buildcraft, skill decisions, etc. This is concerning because it gives an air of pointlessness to the entirety of the project - why gut the entire build/combat system to allow for a playerbase that doesn't exist?

Second, the environment would require HEAVY balancing from a combat team who plays PVP at a reasonable skill level. I'm not trying to suggest that all developers need to be skilled at the game, but an environment as simple as this needs to be balanced to work well, and people who do not have an in-depth understanding of PVP will not be able to do that. This is concerning because historically zenimax has never given us a reason to believe they listen to or care about player feedback in regards to balance changes, and the only PVP representation we've ever seen from zenimax in the form of the recent live stream was... lacking. If this environment comes into the game in as limited a state as it is, along with being poorly balanced, you can be damn sure this won't be played by anybody and will very likely kill off whatever small playerbase you have left on the PVP side of the game. If you are going to take real, tangible steps to ensure this environment is well balanced then lay those plans out for us, or we will assume the worst - because the worst has almost always been the case when it comes to PVP balance, historically.

I played this environment for a few hours, and I have to say it was the most painfully boring PVP I've had on this game in some time. Things are too simplified, the balance is atrocious, and there is no individual flavor or skill expression to be had. While I certainly think there is potential for a more limited environment where people don't have access to nearly as many heals, sustain, or free damage - this iteration falls incredibly short of being that. If this is what zenimax plans on investing their time into during 2025, I don't see the point in hanging around. I'm not confident that anything positive will come of it and I'm not going to just hang around for another year at probably the lowest point ever for this game's PVP while zenimax goes into year 7 or 8 of "just testing things out". I'm sorry, but the good faith was spent long ago and this project as well as the general tone we're seeing regarding it from the CMs and developers does not inspire any confidence whatsoever.

It sounds as if you're evaluating the vengeance setup as if it is a beta version of Cyrodiil 2.0. We have not been told that it is. It has not been implied that it is. The setup does not suggest that it is. Conversely, everything we've seen is consistent with this being the stress test we've been told it is.

So, you have a choice. You can assume ZOS are playing games here, or you can assume the test is the most thorough approach to tackling Cyrodiil performance yet. At stake for you: a single week of boring, unbalanced game play.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the new Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign) in Update 45. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Do characters properly zone into Cyrodiil with templatized Stats and Gear?
  
  Yup. Character zones in, fully setup with all necessary gear, template and skills
• Do characters earn XP/AP/Gold upon leaving?
  
  wasn't able to kill anything myself so cannot confirm this
• Do siege weapons still function with the limitations of only deploying 1 type at at time?
  Didn't test siege much.
• Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game. N/A
  • account name
  • character name
  • What happened to trigger the corruption (leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc)?
  • screenshots and video
• What are your initial thoughts on Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)?
  
  Could be interesting, but I have alot of concerns with combat and survivability
• Do you have any general feedback?

The way the character is setup with zero passives and just a few skill/ no other abilities makes your character really weak compared to cyrodiil on live. It may not be as significant with a large group, but by myself, I struggled to kill even a single npc at a resource

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

And I think anyone who actually cares about PvP in ESO will participate in these tests even if the classes themselves are not balanced. For the purpose of the test I don't think it matters if there's 1000 nbs and 3 necros. What matters is there's 1003 people.

They're not getting 1003 people unless they put forth a product that 1003 people are excited about. Diet Cyrodiil with an unbalanced unfun NB hell meta isn't gonna be it. They're gonna need to deal with at least that. There's no performance reason to mash together a burst heal with invisibility, didn't we already go through this with Hardened Ward?

Current Cyrodiil isn't exciting enough for 1003 people. This test, with standardized templates, is the most exciting update to Cyrodiil in a long time. A lot of people hate it, but a lot of people are interested by it, too. This will bring in many players when it hits Live.

I have to say I don’t think I’m going to even try playing my (Sorcerer) main for this, as she relies too much on non-class skills in her normal power set. I might bust out my Templar since he mostly has class skills equipped.

I would like to echo that the sky is really cool, though.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

And I think anyone who actually cares about PvP in ESO will participate in these tests even if the classes themselves are not balanced. For the purpose of the test I don't think it matters if there's 1000 nbs and 3 necros. What matters is there's 1003 people.

They're not getting 1003 people unless they put forth a product that 1003 people are excited about. Diet Cyrodiil with an unbalanced unfun NB hell meta isn't gonna be it. They're gonna need to deal with at least that. There's no performance reason to mash together a burst heal with invisibility, guess we forgot what we learned from Hardened Ward.

My concept of caring about PvP is to not accept a product released in this state, test or not.

I'm excited that they're actually doing something to try to fix cyrodiil. The gameplay loop of that test really doesn't matter to me if it results in meaningful change.

1. Very happy that PvP is getting some attention.
2. The communication in this thread is great. This is the type of back and forth between gamers and employees that should happen in at least the top 10% of active threads.
3. It is very clear what ZOS wants to get out of the test, and that they can’t get it with many hours of their customers time.
4. ESO has made over $2billion in revenue from all of us. We are now being asked to use a week of our bought and paid for playtime to perform a test for this corporation. The requests for playable balance and worthwhile rewards should be strongly considered. Otherwise you won’t get the numbers you need for the test. Maybe it is too much work on too short of a timeline to balance the classes. Fair enough. If so then the rewards need to be improved. AP is kind of a joke. Think more along the lines of seals of endeavor, crown gems, crown crates, gold, fee ESO+, arena weapons, etc. Be creative.