PTS Update 45 - Feedback Thread for Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)

ZOS_Kevin
ZOS_Kevin
Community Manager
This is the official feedback thread for the new Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign) in Update 45. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
  • Do characters properly zone into Cyrodiil with templatized Stats and Gear?
  • Do characters earn XP/AP/Gold upon leaving?
  • Do siege weapons still function with the limitations of only deploying 1 type at at time?
  • Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.
    • account name
    • character name
    • What happened to trigger the corruption (leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc)?
    • screenshots and video
  • What are your initial thoughts on Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)?
  • Do you have any general feedback?
Edited by ZOS_Kevin on January 21, 2025 6:15PM
Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
Staff Post
  • acastanza_ESO
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    So far, I'm noticing massive power discrepancies between the classes skills.
    Sorcerer, for example, doesn't have a viable spammable since Crystal Shard is still a channel, No expedition, Negate is 3 seconds (useless), Dark Deal only gives back mag, and there's one viable heal (twilight, which is actually a good skill now since no pet), but we do get Major Protection which is decent, but Nightblade has multiple spammables and executes with a Shadow Cloak that has a massive burst heal attached (and has multiple other heals), Siphoning gives back mag and stam with no cooldown, and has access to Major Breach, Major Expedition and Minor Evasion (among others).
    Haven't looked at other classes yet but this is unhinged, unfun, and frankly, unless this gets adjustments I'm not even going to bother with Cyrodiil for a week.

    EDIT:

    Kevin noted below:
    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Hey @acastanza_ESO, we understand why the balance topics you are calling out are important to you. We want to stress that for PTS specifically, this is a functionality test only, ahead of the live test and the test overall is designed to prioritize game performance to see what is possible. For this functionality test on the PTS, we are focused on the questions in the first post. Remember, the core point of this test is to see how Cyrodiil performs overall in a barebones environment, rather than on class kit focus.

    I just want to follow up that this response is grossly misleading. @ZOS_GinaBruno popped into PainintheAxe's stream while he was on PTS and I had the opportunity to ask her if there was any possibility of seeing balance changes before this makes it to the live server, this is her response:

    qtrdbfoqeovn.png

    So, saying this is "for PTS specifically" is false. We do actually need to have the balance conversation right now.
    Edited by acastanza_ESO on January 22, 2025 5:45PM
  • Cast_El
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    Can we have the listed skill for every class?
  • i11ionward
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggb3VnHce8M
    Not bad, please make the same animation speed on the live server too.
    Edited by i11ionward on January 21, 2025 6:27PM
  • xylena_lazarow
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    Wait, it limits your ability to place siege engines too? That's terrible. Why would I play this?
    PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    i11ionward wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggb3VnHce8M
    Not bad, please make the same animation speed on the live server too.

    Hey, @i11ionward. Thanks for the video. Can you provide a little more context? Just so that our teams understand your point about the animation speed.
    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    Hey @acastanza_ESO, we understand why the balance topics you are calling out are important to you. We want to stress that for PTS specifically, this is a functionality test only, ahead of the live test and the test overall is designed to prioritize game performance to see what is possible. For this functionality test on the PTS, we are focused on the questions in the first post. Remember, the core point of this test is to see how Cyrodiil performs overall in a barebones environment, rather than on class kit focus.
    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • sarahthes
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    Wait, it limits your ability to place siege engines too? That's terrible. Why would I play this?

    They are testing to see if the amount of siege causes lag.
  • Deimus
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    Hey, @i11ionward. Thanks for the video. Can you provide a little more context? Just so that our teams understand your point about the animation speed.

    He's most likely referring to how all 3 patches of Vengeance Grave Grasp appear simultaneously. You can see in the video the closest and furthest npc are immobilized at the same time upon casting the skill. On live there is a delay between the patches where the third circle will appear about 1 second after the first.
  • acastanza_ESO
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    Hey @acastanza_ESO, we understand why the balance topics you are calling out are important to you. We want to stress that for PTS specifically, this is a functionality test only, ahead of the live test and the test overall is designed to prioritize game performance to see what is possible. For this functionality test on the PTS, we are focused on the questions in the first post. Remember, the core point of this test is to see how Cyrodiil performs overall in a barebones environment, rather than on class kit focus.

    The problem is that for a full week we're going to be stuck with this on live, and an unbalanced, unfun, campaign where some classes have a massive power advantage over the others is not an acceptable gameplay experience. This shouldn't go on live, even as a test, without at least a basic attempt at ensuring the classes have equitable access to important buffs and debuffs that are required for a class to be playable in PVP.
  • sarahthes
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    The problem is that for a full week we're going to be stuck with this on live, and an unbalanced, unfun, campaign where some classes have a massive power advantage over the others is not an acceptable gameplay experience. This shouldn't go on live, even as a test, without at least a basic attempt at ensuring the classes have equitable access to important buffs and debuffs that are required for a class to be playable in PVP.

    I think the bigger concern is that if some classes are "unplayable", engagement with the test campaign won't be high enough to provide meaningful data.
  • acastanza_ESO
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    sarahthes wrote: »

    I think the bigger concern is that if some classes are "unplayable", engagement with the test campaign won't be high enough to provide meaningful data.

    Yep, like, I want to play this and give it a fair shake, but with the classes as they are, it won't be fun to play a non-viable main class so my initial response is that I simply won't bother.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    First impressions:

    There are WILD power imbalances between the classes (as we all feared there would be...).

    Some classes actually feel feature-complete, with things like access to buffs, gap-closers, delayed burst, both ranged and melee spammables, executes, and CCs, while others are like empty shells, heavily nerfed downgrades of what we have on live. It's evident that the devs simply threw their hands up with some wonky abilities, such as the Necromancer tethers, and changed them to fit this format without much regard to crafting an actually useful skill.

    Nightblade is BY FAR the best-in-slot class, followed by DK and Warden. As is tradition. If you want EZ Mode, play Nightblade. If you want Hard Mode, play Necro or Templar.

    Nightblade, in particular, still has Cloak... but there is no mechanism for stealth detection available in the game mode. Like, WHAT?!

    Necromancer somehow got even worse, as they gave us Sacrificial Bones and stripped-out Blastbones completely.

    Any class that relied upon things like Weapon Abilities or passives to round-out their toolkit is basically unplayable.

    DOTs appear to be quite oppressive due to the near absence of HOTs.

    More random details:

    1. All abilities cost Magicka
    2. Battle Spirit is not applied to either healing or damage
    3. Templates have 70k Health
    4. Tri-Pot is the only potion
    5. AOE abilities are capped at 3 targets

    TLDR: This needs more time to "cook", so to speak. If every class were as feature-complete as Nightblade then the format would be interesting. But as it is, there are clear haves and have-nots. For an optimistic take, such class imbalance should be an obvious signal to the devs for which classes need love on Live (cough, Necro and Templar, cough).
    Edited by YandereGirlfriend on January 21, 2025 7:11PM
  • i11ionward
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    Hey, @i11ionward. Thanks for the video. Can you provide a little more context? Just so that our teams understand your point about the animation speed.
    Deimus wrote: »

    He's most likely referring to how all 3 patches of Vengeance Grave Grasp appear simultaneously. You can see in the video the closest and furthest npc are immobilized at the same time upon casting the skill. On live there is a delay between the patches where the third circle will appear about 1 second after the first.

    This ^^


    Is the team going to look at feedback about how balanced the skills and classes are?

    I really liked the overall idea of the campaign, but I wish there were more build options. Adding weapon skills would definitely help with that.
  • Stamicka
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    So far I haven’t experienced any character corruption although logging out while in vengeance causes a crash every time for me. Everything else seems to be working properly. I’ve made sure that mundus stones don’t work and that siege works properly.

    I’m currently logging into each class and looking at the kit. Nightblade is far beyond any other class and Sorc doesn’t even have skills worth slotting.

    The class balancing in general seems very off, but I still need to test more.
    Edited by Stamicka on January 21, 2025 7:05PM
    PC NA and Xbox NA
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    i11ionward wrote: »
    Is the team going to look at feedback about how balanced the skills and classes are?

    I really liked the overall idea of the campaign, but I wish there were more build options. Adding weapon skills would definitely help with that.

    So the goal here in PTS is to test performance. We understand everyone is looking at skill/class balance. While that is important, it's jumping several steps ahead of what we are trying to accomplish with the test. Before we can realistically look at balance, we need to make sure things are working as intended for performance. It is why we are stressing the importance of answering the questions in the first post. If we can't get in info needed to make things work properly, then balancing means nothing anyway. This isn't to ignore thoughts on balance, but rather to make sure we are clear about the objective of this test on PTS.

    Edited by ZOS_Kevin on January 21, 2025 7:07PM
    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    The Sorcerer's Vengeance Surge seems to have a WoW-style 6-second cooldown on the ability itself.

    This stands out as it is the only ability that I've tried that has such a cooldown. Suffice to say... I don't think that we want ability cooldowns in our ESO.
  • acastanza_ESO
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    The Sorcerer's Vengeance Surge seems to have a WoW-style 6-second cooldown on the ability itself.

    This stands out as it is the only ability that I've tried that has such a cooldown. Suffice to say... I don't think that we want ability cooldowns in our ESO.

    Quite a few abilities have cooldowns now. It's bad.
  • ZOS_Kevin
    ZOS_Kevin
    Community Manager
    @Stamicka Thanks for the feedback, can we get some additional info from you here.
    • Can you provide your account/character name used for the test?
    • Are you running add-ons? If so, which ones?
    Community Manager for ZeniMax Online Studio and Elder Scrolls OnlineDev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter
    Staff Post
  • acastanza_ESO
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    So the goal here in PTS is to test performance. We understand everyone is looking at skill/class balance. While that is important, it's jumping several steps ahead of what we are trying to accomplish with the test. Before we can realistically look at balance, we need to make sure things are working as intended for performance. It is why we are stressing the importance of answering the questions in the first post. If we can't get in info needed to make things work properly, then balancing means nothing anyway. This isn't to ignore thoughts on balance, but rather to make sure we are clear about the objective of this test on PTS.

    If this is just for this week of PTS, that might be okay, but this needs a massive balance pass before going to live and we're going to need to see that on PTS too. If it goes to live in this horrendous balance state the reception is going to be terrible and no one is going to play it.

    Edit: misread the initial response
    Edited by acastanza_ESO on January 21, 2025 7:56PM
  • Stamicka
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    @Stamicka Thanks for the feedback, can we get some additional info from you here.
    • Can you provide your account/character name used for the test?
    • Are you running add-ons? If so, which ones?

    The characters I used were named:
    - Adamar Allain
    - Green Not Balanced
    - Jay the Templar
    - Probably Holding Block

    Account name is @JaeyL

    I have all add ons disabled for this.
    PC NA and Xbox NA
  • Cast_El
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    Yes, we understand the purpose but people won't give it a try if balance is more broken has it is on live servers. When player spent time into a game they want to have fun, not spending time to test a broken class and get frustrated. I am also afraid they won't be enough people to test otherwise.
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »
    This is the official feedback thread for the new Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign) in Update 45. Please try out the new campaign and let us know what you think! Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
    • Do characters properly zone into Cyrodiil with templatized Stats and Gear?
    • Do characters earn XP/AP/Gold upon leaving?
    • Do siege weapons still function with the limitations of only deploying 1 type at at time?
    • Did any of your characters become ‘corrupted’ if they leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc? If you encounter character corruption, please provide the following feedback when using /bug in-game.
      • account name
      • character name
      • What happened to trigger the corruption (leave Cyrodiil mid battle, lost connection, got booted, etc)?
      • screenshots and video
    • What are your initial thoughts on Cyrodiil Champions (Vengeance Campaign)?
    • Do you have any general feedback?

    1. Yes, all of my characters properly zoned into Cyro and spawned with the template stats.
    2. Siege observes the limitations (tested ballista, treb, and oil)

    Feedback on siege would be to go even farther and to limit the placed siege to one piece of any type. With so many more players in Cyro it should still be easy to max-out siege. And limiting siege to only a single piece would make it more of a team effort.

    It also wouldn't be limiting in a practical sense for most players because the scenarios where you would be running, say, a ram and an oil basically do not exist in normal gameplay. This would also make PvDoor more difficult, which is a goal that most Cyro players approve of.
    Edited by YandereGirlfriend on January 21, 2025 7:26PM
  • Stamicka
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    Stamicka wrote: »

    The characters I used were named:
    - Adamar Allain
    - Green Not Balanced
    - Jay the Templar
    - Probably Holding Block

    Account name is @JaeyL

    I have all add ons disabled for this.

    Also I want to add that I was properly given XP and some AP when I log back in after crashing from logging out while in Vengeance.

    In the campaign it seemed like double AP and defense tick AP was working properly too.

    The skills I slotted in the campaign were there when I loaded back in as they should be.

    Outside of the balance and the log out crashes there’s been no other major issues.
    Edited by Stamicka on January 21, 2025 7:26PM
    PC NA and Xbox NA
  • Dagoth_Rac
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    ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

    So the goal here in PTS is to test performance. We understand everyone is looking at skill/class balance. While that is important, it's jumping several steps ahead of what we are trying to accomplish with the test. Before we can realistically look at balance, we need to make sure things are working as intended for performance. It is why we are stressing the importance of answering the questions in the first post. If we can't get in info needed to make things work properly, then balancing means nothing anyway. This isn't to ignore thoughts on balance, but rather to make sure we are clear about the objective of this test on PTS.

    You probably should not have attempted to balance at all. Just given everyone a class-flavored spammable, a class-flavored DoT, a class-flavored self-heal, a class-flavored cc, etc. Simple, basic tools that would have left classes on roughly the same level. When people log in, get destroyed immediately because their class is too weak, then never come back, you are probably not going to get the population numbers needed for a good performance test. Getting as many people as possible to want to play is important for a stress test, so giving players builds that are clearly inferior and no fun is just gonna lead to lower populations and less illuminating testing data.
  • acastanza_ESO
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    Feedback on siege would be to go even farther and to limit the placed siege to one piece of any type. With so many more players in Cyro it should still be easy to max-out siege. And limiting siege to only a single piece would make it more of a team effort.

    It also wouldn't be limiting in a practical sense for most players because the scenarios where you would be running, say, a ram and an oil basically do not exist in normal gameplay. This would also make PvDoor more difficult, which is a goal that most Cyro players approve of.

    This is the case, if you attempt to place a second oil or ballista (for example) it despawns your first one. Which does appear to be working as intended
  • YandereGirlfriend
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    This is the case, if you attempt to place a second oil or ballista (for example) it despawns your first one. Which does appear to be working as intended

    I mean so that you cannot have both a ballista and a treb active, etc.

    The limitation on a single piece of each type is definitely working.

    But I think it would be better if a treb de-spawed a ballista if it were placed while your ballista was already active.

    Aka one person, one siege piece.
    Edited by YandereGirlfriend on January 21, 2025 7:37PM
  • xylena_lazarow
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    This is the case, if you attempt to place a second oil or ballista (for example) it despawns your first one. Which does appear to be working as intended
    Wow, that's horrible. I was hoping siege would salvage not having a build, but you really get nothing. I will not be participating in this test, they need to present a playable ruleset before I care about performance.
    PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils
  • acastanza_ESO
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    Wow, that's horrible. I was hoping siege would salvage not having a build, but you really get nothing. I will not be participating in this test, they need to present a playable ruleset before I care about performance.

    Nah, this is actually one of the good changes. The way the inventory, potions, siege, repair kits, potions, and potions work is great.
  • xylena_lazarow
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    Nah, this is actually one of the good changes. The way the inventory, potions, siege, repair kits, potions, and potions work is great.
    Might have misunderstood with what Yandere said. So you can have out 1 meatbag, 1 scatter, 1 oil, 1 ballista... just not multiples of each? That would probably be okay for combat but present major problems in taking down walls where pugs often rely on a few players who are willing to each drop a bunch of ballistas and trebs.
    PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP ground oils
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