80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem

StaticWave · January 20

XSTRONG wrote: »

At least you can see the 40k HP sorcs when you are fighting them but NB as soon as you target them they disapear and hide from fair fighting.

Even if you pull them out of stealth or use a detect pot they can still survive. I just had a fight where I survived a 30k dmg from a melee NB ganker. I popped a detect pot, turned around and Streaked through him, then hit him with my spammable. He dropped down to 50% HP from 30k HP, then held block and casted Healthy Offering twice, which canceled the next 2 casts of my spammable. He then roll dodged twice to avoid my next 2 spammable casts, but eventually got killed.

While doing all of that, I was being hit by another magsorc. If that magsorc was good I would've died. The NB was also melee btw. If he was a ranged NB ganker, there would've been no way I could catch up to him.

MincMincMinc · January 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Hip hurray for the "never ending combat" mob who have gotten their way for 3 years. ZOS has continually buffed and buffed and buffed survivability with no downside, because all you have to do is put on one damage set on your weapons/jewelry and run with 10 buddies with the same build, and you are nigh unkillable.

But here we go. Here are the problems with the cloak changes.

1. Detection. So now I turn on Shadowy Disguise and I have no idea that the group cycling detect pots have detected me, but I still keep burning magicka trying to stay on the outskirts of their base stealth detection radius.
2. Guards. How do you think stealthblades get into keeps? Shadowy Disguise. Now I am going to burn 3500 magicka every 2 seconds (!!!) trying to maneuver into a keep before I can even find a place where I am comfortable sitting invisible without it running. Guards have insane stealth detection and the only way to get around this is to use shadowy.
3. You just want people to use invisible pots? So now they can't use detect pots to kill other nightblades? Bravo.
4. You allow people to run the map with insanely high health, insanely strong armor, AND SHIELDS. Yet you want to completely remove the most targeted damage dealing playstyle from the game with this ridiculously unwise change, and why? What is being "solved" by this? TTK is the highest it has ever been. People come on here and complain about nightblades because they got killed during their 10 minute lap around a rock when the first 10 people attacking them couldn't do enough damage.

This is an embarrassing change to the game. I can't say what I will do if this goes through as it would be against the rules, but my stream will certainly have to go through a shakeup. It's already a chore to deal with the meta ZOS HAS ENABLED and PAMPERED for 3 years now. PVP used to be about fighting. Now it's about shields and perma blocking until your 10 tank buddies arrive and you can focus your damage 10v1 because that's the only way you can kill anyone, even a measly little nightblade with 9k armor.

After using the NB in both Cyrodiil and IC since the change to cloak I completely agree with everything said here. I'm not posting this to be ugly or to throw mud around ok. So please don't treat this with that kind of disdain but please believe me when I say that the way cloak is now, its more or less unusable. I mean, yeah the cloak is more stable and holds in situations where I want to stay cloaked so yeah that is kind of a win. But after extensive combat in PvP, especially IC, all this really does is further exasperate the resources issue.

So in PvP a NB has to decide do I go damage or maybe damage + sustain. Previously, the old cloak was at least reliable if not a little short on its duration. But now every use of cloak in a combat situation is reducing my magic pool by 30 to 50%. Its real bad and often I get so busy that I forget its on and thus it never gets shut off. Its just, in PvP the less actions I need to make the better the experience. However when I have a strong WW coming at me and can't cloak at all because my stam blade who is already pressed for resources now has no magicka left is really not fair. And thats the thing, the way cloak is right now, especially with us getting no magicka regen, isn't fair. Ok I know certain streamers and others have been critical of the NB and they hate us, ok? I know this. Let me ask you something, lets do a lab real quick. They like their mag sorcs don't they? Mmmm yeah they do. Would they like to have no magicka regen while Hardened Ward is up? How about a debuff to mag recovery for 4 seconds after streaking? No? You guys already know NB stands virtually -no chance- whatsoever against full-fledged mag sorcs. So why such a harsh penalty on one of the only things that makes NB stand any chance at all in any serious PvP combat situation, especially compared to the fact that cloak is so easily broken to begin with?

This current setup with cloak is harsh, it feels very targeted to the NB class who is already mainly useful as bombers and thieves because we can't stand up to DK, Wardens or Sorcs and now we can't hide from them either? C'mon man. This isn't right and you know it isn't. Please fix this. Not all NBs are bombers, who stand the most to benefit from this and I'm still not going to be using cloak to buff damage in PvE? What? That makes no sense... whatsoever. Cloak is rarely if ever used in PvE to my knowledge, so I can't understand why a PvP mechanic is being hit this hard and then now we're going in this PvE direction which no one asked for, was never needed and even if it were helpful is extremely difficult to use and 'abusive' on resources too? Did anyone question this change before it was pushed thru I mean, this just makes no sense and is causing alot of trouble for many of us unnecessarily. This is not a goodbye post by any means, but it was how the cloak was useable as like a 'dodge' that helped make PvP possible in this game.

I really have no desire to sit there and just try to spend 5 to 10 minutes trying to out-heal someone. You know, if you like I can just run all tanks now and we'll be here all day with no one dying and PvP going no-where. We can New World this if you guys like however it will be miserable for everyone involved, trust me. A game so fair and so nerfed that literally -no one- can win. Just a bunch of DKs and Wardens and Sorcs bumping into each other and no one winning. Other classes are -gone- because you've ruined them. Is this really the vision for this game? Is anyone involved with PvP getting an approval on these changes? What leads are reviewing these things or are changes like this coming from the lead devs or just Joe Tuesday who has a beef or a bias? Really bad changes guys.

Fair?

It's fair that you can disappear right in front of my eyes, over and over again to reset a fight then hit me with a spec bow that hits harder than pretty much any burst ultimate? Riiiight.

Agree tanks are a problem, but the ability to x should not be relegated to two classes. You are basically arguing that nb should be op to kill these tanks, but every class should be able to for balance. Every class should be able to fill every role. Nb and sorc are the last classes that need any damage buffs.

What is unfair in the exchange?
-The fact that they CAN cloak.............Well you can detect
-The fact that they have specbow.......Well they built up the stacks
-The fact that they can cloak and spec.......Well you still saw them build up stacks
-The fact that the stacks can linger while invis.....

Tbh I never checked how long the stacks persist for. If I was to guess a reasonable time it should be under 6s atleast.

bar_boss_A · January 20

Yes nightblade is the reason for the 40k health meta, but yes nerfing stealth is not the way to go.
If there is a class that can kill you in two global cooldowns (GDC) when you have 30k HP then of course a large part of the playerbase will run around with more health and tankyness.
This game generally suffers from a way too high TTK-span depending on what two setups meet. There are 2 GCD kills and >5min stalemates. This should be fixed instead. For example one could

reduce damage in PvP by an additional (multiplicative) 50%
and healing by 60%,
reduce the amount of parallel applicable named negative/positive buffs to one per kind
and maximum damage mitigation by blocking to 70%

and would get a far more forgiving environment where skill and reaction would be as meaningful as is now but stalemates would be way harder to achieve and TTK would start at 4s. Thus removing the random one-shot from stealth so many people fear.

MincMincMinc · January 20

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Yes nightblade is the reason for the 40k health meta, but yes nerfing stealth is not the way to go.
If there is a class that can kill you in two global cooldowns (GDC) when you have 30k HP then of course a large part of the playerbase will run around with more health and tankyness.
This game generally suffers from a way too high TTK-span depending on what two setups meet. There are 2 GCD kills and >5min stalemates. This should be fixed instead. For example one could
reduce damage in PvP by an additional (multiplicative) 50%

and healing by 60%,

reduce the amount of parallel applicable named negative/positive buffs to one per kind

and maximum damage mitigation by blocking to 70%

and would get a far more forgiving environment where skill and reaction would be as meaningful as is now but stalemates would be way harder to achieve and TTK would start at 4s. Thus removing the random one-shot from stealth so many people fear.

I completely disagree, nightblade is not the reason for 40k health. Improper stat balance due to food and glyphs is more of an issue. People don't use max stam or mag glyphs anymore because they can get more stats with triglyphs.

At the same time on the other end, skills scale much higher with WD and pen.... so there is even more reason to ignore max stats in favor of max health.

At the same time most classes have a major healing skill that ignores all of this and scales off max health, which is comparable to a heal that scales with wd....... without the need to have multiple wd proc sets to be useful. Polar wind for example.

bar_boss_A · January 20

MincMincMinc · January 20

bar_boss_A wrote: »

10/10 Great movie

Thumbless_Bot · January 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Hip hurray for the "never ending combat" mob who have gotten their way for 3 years. ZOS has continually buffed and buffed and buffed survivability with no downside, because all you have to do is put on one damage set on your weapons/jewelry and run with 10 buddies with the same build, and you are nigh unkillable.

But here we go. Here are the problems with the cloak changes.

1. Detection. So now I turn on Shadowy Disguise and I have no idea that the group cycling detect pots have detected me, but I still keep burning magicka trying to stay on the outskirts of their base stealth detection radius.
2. Guards. How do you think stealthblades get into keeps? Shadowy Disguise. Now I am going to burn 3500 magicka every 2 seconds (!!!) trying to maneuver into a keep before I can even find a place where I am comfortable sitting invisible without it running. Guards have insane stealth detection and the only way to get around this is to use shadowy.
3. You just want people to use invisible pots? So now they can't use detect pots to kill other nightblades? Bravo.
4. You allow people to run the map with insanely high health, insanely strong armor, AND SHIELDS. Yet you want to completely remove the most targeted damage dealing playstyle from the game with this ridiculously unwise change, and why? What is being "solved" by this? TTK is the highest it has ever been. People come on here and complain about nightblades because they got killed during their 10 minute lap around a rock when the first 10 people attacking them couldn't do enough damage.

This is an embarrassing change to the game. I can't say what I will do if this goes through as it would be against the rules, but my stream will certainly have to go through a shakeup. It's already a chore to deal with the meta ZOS HAS ENABLED and PAMPERED for 3 years now. PVP used to be about fighting. Now it's about shields and perma blocking until your 10 tank buddies arrive and you can focus your damage 10v1 because that's the only way you can kill anyone, even a measly little nightblade with 9k armor.

After using the NB in both Cyrodiil and IC since the change to cloak I completely agree with everything said here. I'm not posting this to be ugly or to throw mud around ok. So please don't treat this with that kind of disdain but please believe me when I say that the way cloak is now, its more or less unusable. I mean, yeah the cloak is more stable and holds in situations where I want to stay cloaked so yeah that is kind of a win. But after extensive combat in PvP, especially IC, all this really does is further exasperate the resources issue.

So in PvP a NB has to decide do I go damage or maybe damage + sustain. Previously, the old cloak was at least reliable if not a little short on its duration. But now every use of cloak in a combat situation is reducing my magic pool by 30 to 50%. Its real bad and often I get so busy that I forget its on and thus it never gets shut off. Its just, in PvP the less actions I need to make the better the experience. However when I have a strong WW coming at me and can't cloak at all because my stam blade who is already pressed for resources now has no magicka left is really not fair. And thats the thing, the way cloak is right now, especially with us getting no magicka regen, isn't fair. Ok I know certain streamers and others have been critical of the NB and they hate us, ok? I know this. Let me ask you something, lets do a lab real quick. They like their mag sorcs don't they? Mmmm yeah they do. Would they like to have no magicka regen while Hardened Ward is up? How about a debuff to mag recovery for 4 seconds after streaking? No? You guys already know NB stands virtually -no chance- whatsoever against full-fledged mag sorcs. So why such a harsh penalty on one of the only things that makes NB stand any chance at all in any serious PvP combat situation, especially compared to the fact that cloak is so easily broken to begin with?

This current setup with cloak is harsh, it feels very targeted to the NB class who is already mainly useful as bombers and thieves because we can't stand up to DK, Wardens or Sorcs and now we can't hide from them either? C'mon man. This isn't right and you know it isn't. Please fix this. Not all NBs are bombers, who stand the most to benefit from this and I'm still not going to be using cloak to buff damage in PvE? What? That makes no sense... whatsoever. Cloak is rarely if ever used in PvE to my knowledge, so I can't understand why a PvP mechanic is being hit this hard and then now we're going in this PvE direction which no one asked for, was never needed and even if it were helpful is extremely difficult to use and 'abusive' on resources too? Did anyone question this change before it was pushed thru I mean, this just makes no sense and is causing alot of trouble for many of us unnecessarily. This is not a goodbye post by any means, but it was how the cloak was useable as like a 'dodge' that helped make PvP possible in this game.

I really have no desire to sit there and just try to spend 5 to 10 minutes trying to out-heal someone. You know, if you like I can just run all tanks now and we'll be here all day with no one dying and PvP going no-where. We can New World this if you guys like however it will be miserable for everyone involved, trust me. A game so fair and so nerfed that literally -no one- can win. Just a bunch of DKs and Wardens and Sorcs bumping into each other and no one winning. Other classes are -gone- because you've ruined them. Is this really the vision for this game? Is anyone involved with PvP getting an approval on these changes? What leads are reviewing these things or are changes like this coming from the lead devs or just Joe Tuesday who has a beef or a bias? Really bad changes guys.

Fair?

It's fair that you can disappear right in front of my eyes, over and over again to reset a fight then hit me with a spec bow that hits harder than pretty much any burst ultimate? Riiiight.

Agree tanks are a problem, but the ability to x should not be relegated to two classes. You are basically arguing that nb should be op to kill these tanks, but every class should be able to for balance. Every class should be able to fill every role. Nb and sorc are the last classes that need any damage buffs.

What is unfair in the exchange?
-The fact that they CAN cloak.............Well you can detect
-The fact that they have specbow.......Well they built up the stacks
-The fact that they can cloak and spec.......Well you still saw them build up stacks
-The fact that the stacks can linger while invis.....

Tbh I never checked how long the stacks persist for. If I was to guess a reasonable time it should be under 6s atleast.

Agree. However I would say spec bow needs a slight nerf.

I was specifically commenting on the original posters' assertion that nb was being u.fairly nerfed.

MincMincMinc · January 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Hip hurray for the "never ending combat" mob who have gotten their way for 3 years. ZOS has continually buffed and buffed and buffed survivability with no downside, because all you have to do is put on one damage set on your weapons/jewelry and run with 10 buddies with the same build, and you are nigh unkillable.

But here we go. Here are the problems with the cloak changes.

1. Detection. So now I turn on Shadowy Disguise and I have no idea that the group cycling detect pots have detected me, but I still keep burning magicka trying to stay on the outskirts of their base stealth detection radius.
2. Guards. How do you think stealthblades get into keeps? Shadowy Disguise. Now I am going to burn 3500 magicka every 2 seconds (!!!) trying to maneuver into a keep before I can even find a place where I am comfortable sitting invisible without it running. Guards have insane stealth detection and the only way to get around this is to use shadowy.
3. You just want people to use invisible pots? So now they can't use detect pots to kill other nightblades? Bravo.
4. You allow people to run the map with insanely high health, insanely strong armor, AND SHIELDS. Yet you want to completely remove the most targeted damage dealing playstyle from the game with this ridiculously unwise change, and why? What is being "solved" by this? TTK is the highest it has ever been. People come on here and complain about nightblades because they got killed during their 10 minute lap around a rock when the first 10 people attacking them couldn't do enough damage.

This is an embarrassing change to the game. I can't say what I will do if this goes through as it would be against the rules, but my stream will certainly have to go through a shakeup. It's already a chore to deal with the meta ZOS HAS ENABLED and PAMPERED for 3 years now. PVP used to be about fighting. Now it's about shields and perma blocking until your 10 tank buddies arrive and you can focus your damage 10v1 because that's the only way you can kill anyone, even a measly little nightblade with 9k armor.

After using the NB in both Cyrodiil and IC since the change to cloak I completely agree with everything said here. I'm not posting this to be ugly or to throw mud around ok. So please don't treat this with that kind of disdain but please believe me when I say that the way cloak is now, its more or less unusable. I mean, yeah the cloak is more stable and holds in situations where I want to stay cloaked so yeah that is kind of a win. But after extensive combat in PvP, especially IC, all this really does is further exasperate the resources issue.

So in PvP a NB has to decide do I go damage or maybe damage + sustain. Previously, the old cloak was at least reliable if not a little short on its duration. But now every use of cloak in a combat situation is reducing my magic pool by 30 to 50%. Its real bad and often I get so busy that I forget its on and thus it never gets shut off. Its just, in PvP the less actions I need to make the better the experience. However when I have a strong WW coming at me and can't cloak at all because my stam blade who is already pressed for resources now has no magicka left is really not fair. And thats the thing, the way cloak is right now, especially with us getting no magicka regen, isn't fair. Ok I know certain streamers and others have been critical of the NB and they hate us, ok? I know this. Let me ask you something, lets do a lab real quick. They like their mag sorcs don't they? Mmmm yeah they do. Would they like to have no magicka regen while Hardened Ward is up? How about a debuff to mag recovery for 4 seconds after streaking? No? You guys already know NB stands virtually -no chance- whatsoever against full-fledged mag sorcs. So why such a harsh penalty on one of the only things that makes NB stand any chance at all in any serious PvP combat situation, especially compared to the fact that cloak is so easily broken to begin with?

This current setup with cloak is harsh, it feels very targeted to the NB class who is already mainly useful as bombers and thieves because we can't stand up to DK, Wardens or Sorcs and now we can't hide from them either? C'mon man. This isn't right and you know it isn't. Please fix this. Not all NBs are bombers, who stand the most to benefit from this and I'm still not going to be using cloak to buff damage in PvE? What? That makes no sense... whatsoever. Cloak is rarely if ever used in PvE to my knowledge, so I can't understand why a PvP mechanic is being hit this hard and then now we're going in this PvE direction which no one asked for, was never needed and even if it were helpful is extremely difficult to use and 'abusive' on resources too? Did anyone question this change before it was pushed thru I mean, this just makes no sense and is causing alot of trouble for many of us unnecessarily. This is not a goodbye post by any means, but it was how the cloak was useable as like a 'dodge' that helped make PvP possible in this game.

I really have no desire to sit there and just try to spend 5 to 10 minutes trying to out-heal someone. You know, if you like I can just run all tanks now and we'll be here all day with no one dying and PvP going no-where. We can New World this if you guys like however it will be miserable for everyone involved, trust me. A game so fair and so nerfed that literally -no one- can win. Just a bunch of DKs and Wardens and Sorcs bumping into each other and no one winning. Other classes are -gone- because you've ruined them. Is this really the vision for this game? Is anyone involved with PvP getting an approval on these changes? What leads are reviewing these things or are changes like this coming from the lead devs or just Joe Tuesday who has a beef or a bias? Really bad changes guys.

Fair?

It's fair that you can disappear right in front of my eyes, over and over again to reset a fight then hit me with a spec bow that hits harder than pretty much any burst ultimate? Riiiight.

Agree tanks are a problem, but the ability to x should not be relegated to two classes. You are basically arguing that nb should be op to kill these tanks, but every class should be able to for balance. Every class should be able to fill every role. Nb and sorc are the last classes that need any damage buffs.

What is unfair in the exchange?
-The fact that they CAN cloak.............Well you can detect
-The fact that they have specbow.......Well they built up the stacks
-The fact that they can cloak and spec.......Well you still saw them build up stacks
-The fact that the stacks can linger while invis.....

Tbh I never checked how long the stacks persist for. If I was to guess a reasonable time it should be under 6s atleast.

Agree. However I would say spec bow needs a slight nerf.

I was specifically commenting on the original posters' assertion that nb was being u.fairly nerfed.

Sure the tooltip is a silly amount for what amounts to doing the hard task of...... light attacking. Better to make sure the skill functionally makes sense first and then play with tooltip balance.

Wish bound armaments had the same damage.

ioResult · January 20

LMAO You all are still fighting about this?

Literally every single Nightblade main I know has left this game and are off playing other things now.

They log in a couple times a month at most just to laugh at how stupid Cyrodiil is now.

Those who were sweaty Pvp Brawlblades long ago switched to Warden or Sorc and you can watch them annoying zerglings.

But the bottom line is ZOS killed the Nightblade class for everyone who actually enjoyed it.

It holds no enjoyment anymore.

And if someone doesn't want to run around in PvP as a class carried clown with 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map, this game no longer holds any enjoyment either.

ZOS can have fun with their Cyrodiil "tests" & maybe they'll finally see that the problem in Cyrodiil is all the AoEs being constantly cast by ball groups & zergs causing a zillion calculations per second on the server - which has only been compounded by the idiotic Scribing system that requires the server to do even more AoE calculations per ability cast because each Scribing ability has three components.

Can't wait to read about it.

But surely they must know no long time Nightblade mains will be participating in their test because they've all left the game already.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 21

ioResult wrote: »

LMAO You all are still fighting about this?

Literally every single Nightblade main I know has left this game and are off playing other things now.

They log in a couple times a month at most just to laugh at how stupid Cyrodiil is now.

Those who were sweaty Pvp Brawlblades long ago switched to Warden or Sorc and you can watch them annoying zerglings.

But the bottom line is ZOS killed the Nightblade class for everyone who actually enjoyed it.

It holds no enjoyment anymore.

And if someone doesn't want to run around in PvP as a class carried clown with 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map, this game no longer holds any enjoyment either.

ZOS can have fun with their Cyrodiil "tests" & maybe they'll finally see that the problem in Cyrodiil is all the AoEs being constantly cast by ball groups & zergs causing a zillion calculations per second on the server - which has only been compounded by the idiotic Scribing system that requires the server to do even more AoE calculations per ability cast because each Scribing ability has three components.

Can't wait to read about it.

But surely they must know no long time Nightblade mains will be participating in their test because they've all left the game already.

"Some" Ppl already cry in PTS feedback thread that NB can cloak for 3 seconds (with 4 seconds cool-down, so no perma cloka & chain-casting), but there is no detection ability or detection potions in this "test" mode. I tried, but it seems there is no way to reason or a way to find a middle ground or any kind of consensus with this type of mentality. It seems like ppl simply don't accept the fact that if they want to play a game, they need to accept all the rules and deal with all the mechanics. And they can't stand stealth game play, so they want to have "remove stealth" button so they would not have to deal with that one mechanic that for whatever reason they can't stand. So naturally, when this button won't be available in this "test" mode, they are outraged. What they don't realize it that it won't be needed anyway...

It does not matter that Cloak will be kinda useless to move around unnoticed as you will have to rely on crouch stealth.
It does not mater that it will be used more as a mediocre dmg mitigation rather than re-positioning tool.
All that is irrelevant. ZOS added healing to it cuz they know it wont be physically possible to use the "test" mode cloak in a way it is currently used. They know that, so they added this effect. But people either don't see the whole picture or they conveniently ignore less convenient things. All they see is:
A: There is no "remove stealth" button.
B: Cloak has a heal now.
All other chnages (actually most importnat ones) are irelevent...

I have played on PTS a bit and it seems that by far, the best class in this "test" mode will be DK. It is hard to say about others as they are all close, but DK stands out really. NB will definitely be behind DK, but overall, all other classes aside from DK are kinda close. Some people, for whatever reason always seem to simply freak-out about invisibility & stealth gameplay. They don't seem to "update" their vision & opinion about certain things and still keep outdated depiction of a class in their mind from 10 or 15 patches ago when it was indeed powerful. So, no wonder that people simply can't imagine & predict that in this "test" mode it will be way, way less powerful than they think it will be. I think it is just um... fear ? Or some bad or even traumatic experience from the past ? idk...