80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem

MincMincMinc

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Joy_Division

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

ioResult

Theist_VII wrote: »

Are you in disbelief of the fact that every class has an optimal build pattern?

Go make an inferior build like the one you’re referencing on any other class and tell us about your experience.

While it can be annoying that the game feels like it’s balanced around the 1%, if they did anything other than that you would have people making unkillable builds that two-tap others.

Are you that myopic that you can't see that what you call "the optimal build pattern" only serves ONE single play style? A play style that has nothing to do with the lore of the class and is a 'build pattern' that can be applied to ANY class for that sample play style? You can take the sets, CP and majority of abilities and transfer them to a toon of a different class and then substitute two or three class skills and magically you have the same "optimal build pattern" for THAT class too?

That's because what you're showing is a meta build for ANY BRAWLER who wants to stand in peoples' faces and brawl. But if you don't want to brawl (i.e. play the simplest, easiest style of play in any PvP game) then you can build toons that are optimal for other styles of play.

What is happening here is that for the OTHER styles of play that the vast, vast, vast majority of people playing a Nightblade, their play style is being eliminated completely or severely encumbered for no good reason.

If you can't see that, we can't help you. Go brawl and think that's the only way to play the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, you know what is absolutely hilarious ? Every one & their dog is taking about NB this, NB that, nerf is too strong, nerf is too weak, some people cheer, some people cry etc....

Meanwhile, for over 10 years, Ball Groups have not received as single, direct nerf.... *slow clap*

I mean, seriously... why ? Why not ? Every over-performing play style got gutted a couple of times and even a couple of times more over those 10 years, but Ball Groups.... ? Noooo. They only got some indirect buffs or sometimes even direct buffs...

StaticWave

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

Yea, for offense I mostly use Cloak to guarantee a crit Bow Proc or setup a burst combo. For defense, I use Cloak to “dodge” direct single target abilities without needing to actually dodge roll, or cancel some DoTs/abilities like Zaan/Radiant Destruction/Heavy Lightning Attacks

I rarely stay in Cloak for too long because my build doesn’t need Cloak to survive. Cloak is just a bonus, just like any escape skill in a well-rounded build.

Thumbless_Bot

"80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem"

NB and sorc, in terms of over performing classes... generally, and then dk with pale order is pretty busted too, ngl...

Other than that, ranged damage, tarnished damage, overload spam, healthy offering and spec bow hopefully get addressed in weeks 2-5, but I will take what I can get.

System_Data

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

Yea, for offense I mostly use Cloak to guarantee a crit Bow Proc or setup a burst combo. For defense, I use Cloak to “dodge” direct single target abilities without needing to actually dodge roll, or cancel some DoTs/abilities like Zaan/Radiant Destruction/Heavy Lightning Attacks

I rarely stay in Cloak for too long because my build doesn’t need Cloak to survive. Cloak is just a bonus, just like any escape skill in a well-rounded build.

And yet your style of playing on NB is just one the many available. You think it's alright that this change goes by because it doesn't affect your NB playstyle, which is probably a brawlerblade/tankblade. It's hard to be objective when you clearly say you dislike the ganker playstyle.

People fail to argue properly when mentioned, but cloak is not a displacement tool like streak. They're both defensive options but it doesn't mean that they should be balanced the same way, ie. ramping costs. There's a plethora of countermeasures against cloak than there are for any other defensive tools. Some will argue that they may not work, but how is that any of NBs fault and not ZOS. Stop holding people accountable for playing their way and blame ZOS for bad server performance and bad coding. In a perfect world, all those counters against cloak should be working but they don't and that's on ZOS.

My mains are Templars and Necromancers which those two classes are dogwater in PvP. This is just another bad change with no foresight on repercussions that will ensue. Although this change may not affect how i play my NB, a bad change is still a bad change. You'll see less NBs for sure if this update stay as it is. It's because people will be leaving PvP/ESO. People will enjoy slapping the same people in the same tank builds soon.

Urzigurumash

DK and Templar can't facetank like they used to. Not even close to it. Nowadays you've got to stay moving or you melt.

That probably sounds insane to pure NB and MSorc mains, aka DD Mains, but it's true.

But according to some DD Mains it's a Tank Meta, everybody is a Tank, Heavy Armor needs a nerf, Turtling needs a nerf.

Because after all, Tanks aren't supposed to deal damage. It is a Defensive Role. Dealing damage with any Tank-like Characteristic is an illegitimate playstyle. It doesn't really matter what these Tanks say or want, they're not good players: all the good players are on MSorc and NB.

It took me a while to internalize this, and that's when I became a BowCro main.

StaticWave

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

Foxtrot39

Fixing cyro is as easy as bringing back the duality of PVP

-If you tank well you shouldn't have damage

-If you have high damage/healing you shouldn't tank well

Crosshealing also need to be adressed in PVP to kill ballgroups

Spin

I get your concern over their priorities, this will likely not pass or will in some sort of smaller way. But let's talk about the following:

Being able to cast cloak, refreshing path, concealed attack and even purge for some builds, while not even being a pure Magblade is a problem.

Nightblades have, perhaps, the biggest offensive buff kit in the game. Over-stacking damage sets to delete someone is easy to do nowdays, you have Balorgh, Vamp and various different forms of penetration, those being crafted sets, since the gold crash (thank god, please let it happen again) having 2-crafted sets or crafting the missing pieces of a build is not a problem anymore.

So you can fully commit to damage, be able to cast enough Magicka skills and sustain it all, while also being able to run away into Stealth.

This change hurts the Proc-Blades who didn't manage to get their Tarnished/Ashen/FB/Venomous/Sheer/Cinders/WoF/Velidreth/Anthelmir/Selene/Deadlands on someone, and then go back to stealth to wait for it to happen again, and again and again.

Just play Brawlblade, done. Go full Spellblade, hell most Gankblades that manage to kill Tanky players are already Spellblades so...

Ofc the 40k HP is a problem, but let's not ignore this.

Perhaps I spent too much time playing with Eternal Hunt in my backbar back in the old ways, or that I'm Brawlblading too much. Whatever, Cyro is full of Gankers and Tankers, it's one group going away, then there's the next.

blktauna

KKolly wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Not to mention this essentially kills Stamblade and now everyone will just be a Magblade, jumping around while light attacking everywhere until they are ready to cloak with 30k mag.

My sramblade uses heavy armour and dark cloak.
The full time on minr protection and the heal is good with 35k health.

I support your playstyle but this is a much bigger part of what slows down Cyrodiil than scary shadowy disguise.

***.

A single EP NB sitting between Red Bleakers and Blue Glademist will devastate a siege by picking off people trying to make their way to the siege. They'll sit in perma-stealth on stam build with zero repercussions. Nevermind when entire groups do it.

A single EP tank will just be riden past by the zerg as they go siege down Bleaks. Tanks can't hurt you if you don't engage. But with the NB I can't choose to avoid engagement...meanwhile it gets to disengage into perma stealth at will.

you must be pretty squishy if one attacker can wreck you that easily.

Ocelot9x

I love the argument that cyro is full of tanks and if you have 35k+ health you shouldnt be able to do damage but at the same time if you get oneshot by a nb its your fault because you're not building enough tankiness.

DeadlySerious

evLRise wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I love the argument that cyro is full of tanks and if you have 35k+ health you shouldnt be able to do damage but at the same time if you get oneshot by a nb its your fault because you're not building enough tankiness.

[snip]

More like exposing the players that have been crutching on broken OP NB skills for too long.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Mayrael

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Theist_VII

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

TechMaybeHic

Theist_VII wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Better watch out. That templar landed one jab. That POTL about to go off for 1k

Theist_VII

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Better watch out. That templar landed one jab. That POTL about to go off for 1k

Look at all that effort it took to kill that player with two buttons after draining all of their stam away due to Templar’s amazing sustain.

Jabbs_Giggity

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So on XboxNA like 1/2 of Cyros leaderboard is NB. Been consistently about 3x the number of NBs vs any other class this year.

Despite their immortality, typically only around 4 Necros - and they're probably all VD DC builds.

1. Leaderboard just means someone has the ability to play 10+ hours a day, or they leech ticks, or both.
2. In GH this is not true on any alliance.
3. What NBs are on the leaderboard in GH are almost all not relying on cloak as their main defense. They are running high health and shields like a vast majority of other players and are magblades. they only use cloak for very specific circumstances. If you want to nerf those builds, nerf their survivability. But of course we can't do that.

Majority of NB's on the leaderboards do not even slot cloak, unless for the Savagery/Prophecy buff. They do not use cloak for Resistance buffs > they get this from Wardens in their groups. ALL are running VD/RA builds. Aside from NB, top contenders for leaderboards are Necro bombers and Warden Healers (broken build).

Pelanora

MincMincMinc wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Well all those changes sound stupid. I hadn't realised the game had ways to avoid the current cyro problems but sabotaged itself.

So was all this done under the current combat lead? Mr 'I wear a tank build to annoy players'??

MincMincMinc

Pelanora wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Well all those changes sound stupid. I hadn't realised the game had ways to avoid the current cyro problems but sabotaged itself.

So was all this done under the current combat lead? Mr 'I wear a tank build to annoy players'??

Not entirely one devs fault, but a greater game direction problem.

I think the problem is the abilities I gave as examples "appeared" to overperform.... but in reality they fulfilled their intent. The average player will see someone using one of the skills/build to survive when out numbered and think wow that's broken. In actuality the skill is absolutely useless in 1v1 or in big group combat usually. Look at old fury or seventh legion. Probably the pinnacle of eso combat being fun. These sets appeared to be strong, because they worked magic when outnumbered. However if you ran it in a group, you never got good uptime on the buffs.

That whole stream is another problem on its own. My only take I'll talk about is, how come zos wont take a day to simply try playing and learning the game? How can you be the combat lead and not know how combat works? I'd think zos can and should have fit that in to a 9-5 schedule. Even a 3 hour session where a pvp streamer teaches a class or something would be beneficial.

There is another whole level of issues when it comes to:

• Stat choices not mattering. Most choices have a clear BIS instead of a good balance of choices
• Active vs passive playstyles being out of balanced in the name of "accessibility".
• Ult vs Ability vs proc set (passive) damage balance.
• Gamerules like OverTime effects stacking infinitely, or cross healing, etc.
• Counterplay being unclear, either sources arent viable or the animations are not clear/hidden

December7854

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Well all those changes sound stupid. I hadn't realised the game had ways to avoid the current cyro problems but sabotaged itself.

So was all this done under the current combat lead? Mr 'I wear a tank build to annoy players'??

Not entirely one devs fault, but a greater game direction problem.

I think the problem is the abilities I gave as examples "appeared" to overperform.... but in reality they fulfilled their intent. The average player will see someone using one of the skills/build to survive when out numbered and think wow that's broken. In actuality the skill is absolutely useless in 1v1 or in big group combat usually. Look at old fury or seventh legion. Probably the pinnacle of eso combat being fun. These sets appeared to be strong, because they worked magic when outnumbered. However if you ran it in a group, you never got good uptime on the buffs.

Genuinely miss when your set/skill choices/racial choices/class passives were the biggest consideration for builds. Now it seems like it's just a matter of "what's the latest proc craze?" It leaves room for very little nuance.

MincMincMinc

December7854 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Well all those changes sound stupid. I hadn't realised the game had ways to avoid the current cyro problems but sabotaged itself.

So was all this done under the current combat lead? Mr 'I wear a tank build to annoy players'??

Not entirely one devs fault, but a greater game direction problem.

I think the problem is the abilities I gave as examples "appeared" to overperform.... but in reality they fulfilled their intent. The average player will see someone using one of the skills/build to survive when out numbered and think wow that's broken. In actuality the skill is absolutely useless in 1v1 or in big group combat usually. Look at old fury or seventh legion. Probably the pinnacle of eso combat being fun. These sets appeared to be strong, because they worked magic when outnumbered. However if you ran it in a group, you never got good uptime on the buffs.

Genuinely miss when your set/skill choices/racial choices/class passives were the biggest consideration for builds. Now it seems like it's just a matter of "what's the latest proc craze?" It leaves room for very little nuance.

I think alot of that came during Elsweyr when they gutted all of the weapon skill lines and damage. My go to example was how dizzy swing lost like 45% of its damage and became super complicated. Like really, why are we at a point where I need to read a paragraph for what should be a simple damage skill? All it needs to be is a unique fun intuitive skill that does damage, the old dizzy fulfilled that, new dizzy is so bad even me a 10 year dizzy swing player guesses when the stun may perhaps happen.

Otherwise the balance of player skill and choices has fallen victim to people virtue signaling in the name of "Accessibility". Which leads to less skill based options and combat that is practically playing itself. We really went from the stat based fury+7th legion meta down to afk proc sets ...... see the latest bg stream for example. The lead combat dev is basically afk trying to showcase how cool and exciting the new pvp mode is.

I personally dont hop on my PC to play a point and click mobile game. I think people need to be more vocal calling this stuff out. Players want skill engaging combat, not a mobile set collector/ trading card type of game.

Major_Mangle

Otherwise the balance of player skill and choices has fallen victim to people virtue signaling in the name of "Accessibility". Which leads to less skill based options and combat that is practically playing itself. We really went from the stat based fury+7th legion meta down to afk proc sets ...... see the latest bg stream for example. The lead combat dev is basically afk trying to showcase how cool and exciting the new pvp mode is.

I´m gonna slightly disagree here. We´re currently in the most stat dense/stat heavy meta the game has ever been in. The values you can reach in terms of raw stats has never been more overtuned. Sure we do have a different CP system now compared to in Elsweyr, but if we´re gonna be honest with ourselves, the 7th/fury meta is probably some of the most atrocious meta´s this game has ever had. It´s pretty much similar to today where you can slap on wretched/rallying/balorgh + mythic and you got a universal training wheel build (yes 7th/fury was training wheels back then as well) that works for any class more or less.

Yes there are a few proc-sets that could use adjustments (like Rush of Agony just to name one), but most sets I´d like adjustment too are unironically utility and stat buffing sets, due to how overtuned they´re and what they allow solo and group players alike to accomplish (with very little effort/investment and with little to no trade-offs).

If you want to make PvP more enjoyable the game needs a stat squish (PvE could use one as well tbf). I could go into deep detail on how I´d do that, but that´s a topic for a thread on its own.

MincMincMinc

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Otherwise the balance of player skill and choices has fallen victim to people virtue signaling in the name of "Accessibility". Which leads to less skill based options and combat that is practically playing itself. We really went from the stat based fury+7th legion meta down to afk proc sets ...... see the latest bg stream for example. The lead combat dev is basically afk trying to showcase how cool and exciting the new pvp mode is.

I´m gonna slightly disagree here. We´re currently in the most stat dense/stat heavy meta the game has ever been in. The values you can reach in terms of raw stats has never been more overtuned. Sure we do have a different CP system now compared to in Elsweyr, but if we´re gonna be honest with ourselves, the 7th/fury meta is probably some of the most atrocious meta´s this game has ever had. It´s pretty much similar to today where you can slap on wretched/rallying/balorgh + mythic and you got a universal training wheel build (yes 7th/fury was training wheels back then as well) that works for any class more or less.

Yes there are a few proc-sets that could use adjustments (like Rush of Agony just to name one), but most sets I´d like adjustment too are unironically utility and stat buffing sets, due to how overtuned they´re and what they allow solo and group players alike to accomplish (with very little effort/investment and with little to no trade-offs).

If you want to make PvP more enjoyable the game needs a stat squish (PvE could use one as well tbf). I could go into deep detail on how I´d do that, but that´s a topic for a thread on its own.

I think we actually agree here. Stats/power creep is more evident than ever. Maybe I will make a thread on stat tension again (problem is that people wont read/comment on idepth threads that they cant quickly choose a side) When certain stats become useless, the other stats become inflated. Example from the OP title where 40k hp is the norm now..... well yeah when max stam and mag are useless people will directly trade those to more efficient and effective stats like health or pen. I even swapped off triglyphs to go solely to max health. My stamsorc 1vX sits at 29k pen 45khp 40k+ resists with a 14k hardened ward..... because max stam and mag are not needed anymore.

My point was more that there exists 0 skill afk playstyles which compete against fully active playstyles. Back in the day people who used proc sets were worthless and they essentially tickled you. Now adays you are getting hit with the run of the mill >insert proc set here< (tarnished right now) which guts you for 1/4 to 1/2 your health pool. I think its just gotten more and more accepted as the fed up players left over the years. Eventually we are stuck in this echo chamber where its viewed as ok.

Even with damage sets compare old fury and the go to damage set oakfather. Atleast with old fury you had to put yourself in danger and actively be defending to build up the bonus. With newer sets like oakfather you can just run up to anyone and passively always have that damage at your fingertips.

Vulkunne

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Hip hurray for the "never ending combat" mob who have gotten their way for 3 years. ZOS has continually buffed and buffed and buffed survivability with no downside, because all you have to do is put on one damage set on your weapons/jewelry and run with 10 buddies with the same build, and you are nigh unkillable.

But here we go. Here are the problems with the cloak changes.

1. Detection. So now I turn on Shadowy Disguise and I have no idea that the group cycling detect pots have detected me, but I still keep burning magicka trying to stay on the outskirts of their base stealth detection radius.
2. Guards. How do you think stealthblades get into keeps? Shadowy Disguise. Now I am going to burn 3500 magicka every 2 seconds (!!!) trying to maneuver into a keep before I can even find a place where I am comfortable sitting invisible without it running. Guards have insane stealth detection and the only way to get around this is to use shadowy.
3. You just want people to use invisible pots? So now they can't use detect pots to kill other nightblades? Bravo.
4. You allow people to run the map with insanely high health, insanely strong armor, AND SHIELDS. Yet you want to completely remove the most targeted damage dealing playstyle from the game with this ridiculously unwise change, and why? What is being "solved" by this? TTK is the highest it has ever been. People come on here and complain about nightblades because they got killed during their 10 minute lap around a rock when the first 10 people attacking them couldn't do enough damage.

This is an embarrassing change to the game. I can't say what I will do if this goes through as it would be against the rules, but my stream will certainly have to go through a shakeup. It's already a chore to deal with the meta ZOS HAS ENABLED and PAMPERED for 3 years now. PVP used to be about fighting. Now it's about shields and perma blocking until your 10 tank buddies arrive and you can focus your damage 10v1 because that's the only way you can kill anyone, even a measly little nightblade with 9k armor.

After using the NB in both Cyrodiil and IC since the change to cloak I completely agree with everything said here. I'm not posting this to be ugly or to throw mud around ok. So please don't treat this with that kind of disdain but please believe me when I say that the way cloak is now, its more or less unusable. I mean, yeah the cloak is more stable and holds in situations where I want to stay cloaked so yeah that is kind of a win. But after extensive combat in PvP, especially IC, all this really does is further exasperate the resources issue.

So in PvP a NB has to decide do I go damage or maybe damage + sustain. Previously, the old cloak was at least reliable if not a little short on its duration. But now every use of cloak in a combat situation is reducing my magic pool by 30 to 50%. Its real bad and often I get so busy that I forget its on and thus it never gets shut off. Its just, in PvP the less actions I need to make the better the experience. However when I have a strong WW coming at me and can't cloak at all because my stam blade who is already pressed for resources now has no magicka left is really not fair. And thats the thing, the way cloak is right now, especially with us getting no magicka regen, isn't fair. Ok I know certain streamers and others have been critical of the NB and they hate us, ok? I know this. Let me ask you something, lets do a lab real quick. They like their mag sorcs don't they? Mmmm yeah they do. Would they like to have no magicka regen while Hardened Ward is up? How about a debuff to mag recovery for 4 seconds after streaking? No? You guys already know NB stands virtually -no chance- whatsoever against full-fledged mag sorcs. So why such a harsh penalty on one of the only things that makes NB stand any chance at all in any serious PvP combat situation, especially compared to the fact that cloak is so easily broken to begin with?

This current setup with cloak is harsh, it feels very targeted to the NB class who is already mainly useful as bombers and thieves because we can't stand up to DK, Wardens or Sorcs and now we can't hide from them either? C'mon man. This isn't right and you know it isn't. Please fix this. Not all NBs are bombers, who stand the most to benefit from this and I'm still not going to be using cloak to buff damage in PvE? What? That makes no sense... whatsoever. Cloak is rarely if ever used in PvE to my knowledge, so I can't understand why a PvP mechanic is being hit this hard and then now we're going in this PvE direction which no one asked for, was never needed and even if it were helpful is extremely difficult to use and 'abusive' on resources too? Did anyone question this change before it was pushed thru I mean, this just makes no sense and is causing alot of trouble for many of us unnecessarily. This is not a goodbye post by any means, but it was how the cloak was useable as like a 'dodge' that helped make PvP possible in this game.

I really have no desire to sit there and just try to spend 5 to 10 minutes trying to out-heal someone. You know, if you like I can just run all tanks now and we'll be here all day with no one dying and PvP going no-where. We can New World this if you guys like however it will be miserable for everyone involved, trust me. A game so fair and so nerfed that literally -no one- can win. Just a bunch of DKs and Wardens and Sorcs bumping into each other and no one winning. Other classes are -gone- because you've ruined them. Is this really the vision for this game? Is anyone involved with PvP getting an approval on these changes? What leads are reviewing these things or are changes like this coming from the lead devs or just Joe Tuesday who has a beef or a bias? Really bad changes guys.

Nerhesi

This is actually why NB/Sorc are the problem. The only meaningful threat to the 35k, 10k+ shield meta.

You can't have a roleplaying game without roles. There is no attrition or healing or meanigful tank roles in the game because it's counterstrike with healthbars resetting every 4-5 seconds.

The meta is so tighter because of the lack of roles. You want to fix this? You need an overhaul of how resources and regen work in this game so you can't have 2 meta builds just bunny hopping for 15 mins around eachother.