Necrostatistics, part two (YOURS opinion matter! To me, atleast)

Turtle_Bot · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

C_Inside wrote: »

With all the replies so far you'd think this forum is exclusively for pvp. So let me bring in an opinion from an endgame PvE dps player that mains necro. For context my necro is a Khajiit with Rele + Runecarver + Kilt & 1 piece Slimecraw. Pretty standard.

I find necro to be just as good as the other classes in most situation. Shock and awe, I know. The damage I can pull in single target fights, both static and dynamic is about the same as the other classes I've tried (I have a Templar DD and I've also used DK and Warden in the past).

Where Necro really shines and pushes over the top is in static fights with many ads where you need cleave. There is very little out there that can compare with my necro in this scenario. Most of my class skills are AOE, my Ultimate is AOE, Runecarver does crazy AOE damage, and thanks to Khajiit + Kilt + Death Knell you're criting like crazy. Recently I did vKA with my guild on my necro. I pulled 81K dps on Yandir, 86K on Vrol, and 60K flat on Fargravn. My total dps across the trial was just under 61K. This is way, way, WAY more than what's actually needed for this trial.

The main complaint I see about necro is it feeling clunky. I really don't understand this sentiment. All of its skills function the exact same way as other classes. You use up 1 GCD to cast the skill and it does damage. You use a GCD on Blastbones and it does damage. You use a GCD on Skull and it does damage. The speed of the projectile and/or animation literally doesn't matter as enemies in pve don't dodge. You cast the skill and it will ALWAYS do damage, assuming the enemy isn't in an immunity phase.

This sentiment that "necro is trash" comes from the fact that it's not that good in super organized endgame groups and when parsing on the trial dummy. Most people don't understand why this is and so they just blindly parrot the "necro is trash" sentiment. By the way, the reason why necro isn't good in score pushing is mostly because it's way over the penetration cap. Runecarver is the be all, end all set for necro dps atm so it needs to be used. It is light armor that needs to be always active, so you're forced into 2 pieces of light armor. Then Runecarver has penetration on its 4 piece bonus. With this setup the best arena weapon is the Maelstrom 2 hander, which has penetration as its perfected bonus. And finally Necro has the Dismember passive, which is more penetration. In super organized groups this is really bad, but in more casual setups or if you're running with pugs this is mostly a non issue. And in such scenarios necro is just as strong, if not stronger than all the other classes. Don't believe me? Go parse on a Target Skeleton instead of the trial dummy. You'll be surprised.

Now, don't get me wrong, necro was underperforming a few patches ago, especially when they got rid of Stalking Blastbones, but since then the damage has gone up to the point where it's in a pretty good place. Runecarver was a major win for necro dps and all the small buffs it got since the introduction of GarbageLord's Suckrifice have made it comparable to all the other classes. Still, please DO keep pushing the "necro is trash" narrative. It means ZOS is more likely to buff my favorite class even more

Spoilered to save some space

The clunky aspect is mostly a PvP issue more than a PvE issue, but it still has its moments in PvE too.

Targets constantly roll/block in PvP and skulls with its slow projectile speed and longer cast animation is just too easy to avoid/block. Blast bones is also a PvP specific issue due to targets constantly moving (and stunning) which screws with BB AI (not to mention the lag in cyro making this worse too).

Something I have noticed in PvE is with the longer cast animation on skulls, it tends to feel as though it has a real cast time (something that really messes with weaving when combined with high ping such as in my case and not just for necro, but other abilities with long animations have this issue for me too). This may not be an issue for some, but a lot of players have 200+ ping at a minimum, so it's not surprising to see it be a noticeable issue, especially with how random the ping spikes can get without a VPN.

Like I said in my earlier reply, most of what necro needs is QoL things and most of those are for PvP, but would be nice for PvE as well (especially choosing if archer/mage are going to be pets or DoTs and not the current both, but neither weirdness that those abilities currently are where they got massively hard nerfed/standardized like regular DoTs back in U35, but they then don't get buffed by necros rapid rot passive and GLS buff to DoTs so it's like they got double nerfed).

Power levels on necro are actually really close (at least when the abilities land/in PvE), so if anything just some small tweaks to the unique passive effects necro abilities have for slotting them would bridge this gap (if still needed after the QoL fixes are done).

necro_the_crafter · October 16

C_Inside wrote: »

With all the replies so far you'd think this forum is exclusively for pvp. So let me bring in an opinion from an endgame PvE dps player that mains necro. For context my necro is a Khajiit with Rele + Runecarver + Kilt & 1 piece Slimecraw. Pretty standard.

I find necro to be just as good as the other classes in most situation. Shock and awe, I know. The damage I can pull in single target fights, both static and dynamic is about the same as the other classes I've tried (I have a Templar DD and I've also used DK and Warden in the past).

Where Necro really shines and pushes over the top is in static fights with many ads where you need cleave. There is very little out there that can compare with my necro in this scenario. Most of my class skills are AOE, my Ultimate is AOE, Runecarver does crazy AOE damage, and thanks to Khajiit + Kilt + Death Knell you're criting like crazy. Recently I did vKA with my guild on my necro. I pulled 81K dps on Yandir, 86K on Vrol, and 60K flat on Fargravn. My total dps across the trial was just under 61K. This is way, way, WAY more than what's actually needed for this trial.

The main complaint I see about necro is it feeling clunky. I really don't understand this sentiment. All of its skills function the exact same way as other classes. You use up 1 GCD to cast the skill and it does damage. You use a GCD on Blastbones and it does damage. You use a GCD on Skull and it does damage. The speed of the projectile and/or animation literally doesn't matter as enemies in pve don't dodge. You cast the skill and it will ALWAYS do damage, assuming the enemy isn't in an immunity phase.

This sentiment that "necro is trash" comes from the fact that it's not that good in super organized endgame groups and when parsing on the trial dummy. Most people don't understand why this is and so they just blindly parrot the "necro is trash" sentiment. By the way, the reason why necro isn't good in score pushing is mostly because it's way over the penetration cap. Runecarver is the be all, end all set for necro dps atm so it needs to be used. It is light armor that needs to be always active, so you're forced into 2 pieces of light armor. Then Runecarver has penetration on its 4 piece bonus. With this setup the best arena weapon is the Maelstrom 2 hander, which has penetration as its perfected bonus. And finally Necro has the Dismember passive, which is more penetration. In super organized groups this is really bad, but in more casual setups or if you're running with pugs this is mostly a non issue. And in such scenarios necro is just as strong, if not stronger than all the other classes. Don't believe me? Go parse on a Target Skeleton instead of the trial dummy. You'll be surprised.

Now, don't get me wrong, necro was underperforming a few patches ago, especially when they got rid of Stalking Blastbones, but since then the damage has gone up to the point where it's in a pretty good place. Runecarver was a major win for necro dps and all the small buffs it got since the introduction of GarbageLord's Suckrifice have made it comparable to all the other classes. Still, please DO keep pushing the "necro is trash" narrative. It means ZOS is more likely to buff my favorite class even more

sourse:

https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/18/#dataset=100&metric=bossdps

So yeah stamcro is good in PvE, while mag is in a decline, but we can see that all if mag specs perform bad excluding mDK. I myself also consider it perfectly fine for PvE, in fact I run exact same build only on dunmer. But Im not sure if necros are kings of AoE, both mDK and sArc also have enourmous cleave potential, sometimes even more then necro.

Nobody said that necro lacks damage, all of PvPers complains are mostly about necromancer laking a ways and means to deal that damage to a moving target (lack of reliable CC, lack of control over corpses spawn location, etc). And if zos would improve theese aspects nothing will change about necro PvE dps. PvE DPS, as you stated, doesnt care about bosses or adds kiting out of damage areas, they dont block your damage, they dont cc or kill yours blastbones, so in PvE you simply wouldnt feel that frustration that PvPers feel every time their ability misfire, unless you run ghostly embrace that ZoS want you to run for DPS now, as it doesnt have a 100% effectivnes even in AoE fight, and you still will lose some of its potential damage while wasting mana for whole thing, its just a bad deal.
But, you can just not use GE an stick to what works better, but then it rises questions - if its skill is still gonna go untouched for PvE, PvPers gonna drop it because it no longer CC's, who is ZoS targeted auidince on this change? They nerf its PvP potential to make it a viable option for PvE, but for PvE you got better skill options than GE.

So yeah, I cant see any justyfiable reason for them to not improve on issues that PvPers ask, since they wont suddenly make necro OP in PvE, or break it in any other matter. In fact theese buffs could only improve a gameplay of a tank/support necro, that also preforms quite good on a high end compared to other tank specs, but it still wont interact with things that makes necro tanks/support such a desirable assets.

ellmarie · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

Exactly. I love my MagNecro dps, but admittedly after the last few updates I've played her much less. She used to be powerful for a PVE solo player. I didn't have any issues with WBs or dungeons. She's still good, but just takes longer on enemies. I guess that was the point of the fixes.

flizomica · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

I primarily play mine in PvE (all roles), but I also have a PvP spec (tanky healer) that I really enjoy.

C_Inside · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

I understand that most, if not all, of necro's pain points at the moment happen to do with pvp, but the narrative surrounding necro still involves its capability as a pve dps class specifically. I just wanted to set the record straight by laying out the facts that necro, right now, is way better for pve dps than people make it out to be. If you're not playing necro dd in pve because "they" told you it's bad then "they" are just wrong.

I also want to point out that terms like "stamcro" and "magcro" are mostly obsolete in today's game of ESO thanks to hybridization. The only reason your "magcro" is doing less damage than your "stamcro" is because you're using weaker sets or weaker skills. If you literally take your "stamcro" and put all its points into magicka instead then you'd be doing the exact same damage. OK, ok, you'll do a teeny, tiny, wee bit less damage if you happen to be running Perfected Rele since that gets a max stamina bonus line.

Nowadays the only reason why you'd pick mag over stam is if you want Necrotic Orb's synergy to restore a specific resource or if you happen to be using a set that has max mag or max stam as a bonus line.

peacenote · October 16

I tried, but there really is no poll choice that aligns with how I play. But I'll answer.

I PvE more than I PvP, and I am more skilled at PvE than PvP, but it is not true that I "mostly" play one or the other. In fact, I PvP pretty regularly and there are months due to events that, besides my raids, I only PvP.

My main "is" a templar - although it's not requested or desired in any organized content that I'm doing right now.

I have three necros - a tank, a healer, and a damage 2h PvP-er.

I LOVE my necro tank. I love necros in general because of the look and feel and theme, and I think mostly I just really love Bone Armor when tanking, but there are other things I like, including the fact that I can bring Colo. I find that necro tanks are still useful but not as requested as they had been. I don't find them to be clunky. From a tank perspective, it is "decent" for PvE.

I was devastated when the balance changes rendered my necro healer to no longer be desired or requested in organized gameplay. From that perspective, it is not decent for PvE.

My PvP necro is one of my only characters solely dedicated to PvP. My build is a few years old. I still have fun with it and still get kills with it but I am sure it's not the best. From that perspective, it is probably "decent" for PvP although I'm not the best judge.

I will observe that there is more to PvE than DPS, and that one might spec into magicka for healing.

necro_the_crafter · October 16

C_Inside wrote: »

I understand that most, if not all, of necro's pain points at the moment happen to do with pvp, but the narrative surrounding necro still involves its capability as a pve dps class specifically. I just wanted to set the record straight by laying out the facts that necro, right now, is way better for pve dps than people make it out to be. If you're not playing necro dd in pve because "they" told you it's bad then "they" are just wrong.

I also want to point out that terms like "stamcro" and "magcro" are mostly obsolete in today's game of ESO thanks to hybridization. The only reason your "magcro" is doing less damage than your "stamcro" is because you're using weaker sets or weaker skills. If you literally take your "stamcro" and put all its points into magicka instead then you'd be doing the exact same damage. OK, ok, you'll do a teeny, tiny, wee bit less damage if you happen to be running Perfected Rele since that gets a max stamina bonus line.

Nowadays the only reason why you'd pick mag over stam is if you want Necrotic Orb's synergy to restore a specific resource or if you happen to be using a set that has max mag or max stam as a bonus line.

PvE is also a wide spectre of activities, if we talking about 12 men composition than yeah as presented from eso statistics necros are good both as DPS as well support, if talking about 4 men content then yeah necros are still good as supports but DPS starts to falling off a little, if we talking solo Arenas/IA then no, stuff like Pale Order not trigerring from pets damage, as well as lack of strong group buff make necro fall short to almost every other class.

If talk PvP, as peeople stated earlier in this thread necros can be good if they are in a good group composition, but absolutly worst if played solo.

And that perfectly captures all of class problems, QoL and access to named/uniqe buffs and realible cc. In group compositions when peeople can provide for both CC and buffs necros tend to shine but when you on your own - lack of later makes it qute an unfun expirience, because your clanky abilities simply dont function without setup, while you have 0 setup, and damage starts also to fall off but to a lesser extent. So basicly class sucsess lies on the shoulders of other around it, and there is game situation when you dont choose your allies or have no allies at all, and you yoursself cant sieze control over you own sucsess.

Sure yeah its an MMO so go get a group, but there is a reason ZoS have gone through so many changes to enable solo play (location scaling, itemisation improves, bomber builds, etc...), because this is how some people WANT TO PLAY sometimes.

Yeah hybridization has equlised things so no matter what resourse you use dps will be +- the same, but I was reffering to ESO statistics and they still differentiate specs, so... yeah... unfinished hybridization is whole different issue...

C_Inside · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

PvE is also a wide spectre of activities, if we talking about 12 men composition than yeah as presented from eso statistics necros are good both as DPS as well support, if talking about 4 men content then yeah necros are still good as supports but DPS starts to falling off a little, if we talking solo Arenas/IA then no, stuff like Pale Order not trigerring from pets damage, as well as lack of strong group buff make necro fall short to almost every other class.

When it comes to 4 man pve content while it is true that your damage falls off, it isn't because of necro's toolkit. Your sets function the same, your skills function the same, your food buff functions the same, your race functions the same, your potions function the same, your rotation is the same. Literally the only difference is the fact you have 2 fewer supports. That's why your damage is lower. Not because your class magically does less damage with fewer people.

As for solo content, it's toolkit is way stronger than you think, and one of the main reasons why is the same reason I outlined why it's not so good when humping the trial dummy. Penetration. Literally the most important damage stat while you're under its cap, and necro gets 1500 of it for free. Oh, and let's not forget AOE Major Breach on Boneyard, which is a skill that's a cornerstone of any necro build. And did I mention Boneyard also has Minor Vulnerability? Not getting as much healing from Pale Order as another class? No problem, just slap on Summoner's Armor. Major + Minor Resolve + a unique 15% reduction to DOT damage taken + cost reduction on your summons for 30 seconds. Still not enough? Spirit Guardian heals a decent bit and gives a unique 10% reduction to damage taken. Still not enough survivability? OK, how about this. Since you're getting your Major weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell crit bonuses from key skills that every necro uses (syphon and skeleton mage) you could run armor or CC immunity potions. Or Heroism potions so you can use Goliath more often. Or if you don't need Goliath for defense, running Heroism potions means more Ice Comets/Shooting Stars, which in turn means more healing from Pale Order.

I don't play Infinite Grind Archive so admittedly I don't know how good necro is there, but I've soloed many world bosses and I've also done vMA on a necro with very little issue. This is literally some of the hardest solo content in the game and I breezed through it on my necro, so I don't quite understand what you're talking about.

necro_the_crafter · October 16

C_Inside wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

PvE is also a wide spectre of activities, if we talking about 12 men composition than yeah as presented from eso statistics necros are good both as DPS as well support, if talking about 4 men content then yeah necros are still good as supports but DPS starts to falling off a little, if we talking solo Arenas/IA then no, stuff like Pale Order not trigerring from pets damage, as well as lack of strong group buff make necro fall short to almost every other class.

When it comes to 4 man pve content while it is true that your damage falls off, it isn't because of necro's toolkit. Your sets function the same, your skills function the same, your food buff functions the same, your race functions the same, your potions function the same, your rotation is the same. Literally the only difference is the fact you have 2 fewer supports. That's why your damage is lower. Not because your class magically does less damage with fewer people.

As for solo content, it's toolkit is way stronger than you think, and one of the main reasons why is the same reason I outlined why it's not so good when humping the trial dummy. Penetration. Literally the most important damage stat while you're under its cap, and necro gets 1500 of it for free. Oh, and let's not forget AOE Major Breach on Boneyard, which is a skill that's a cornerstone of any necro build. And did I mention Boneyard also has Minor Vulnerability? Not getting as much healing from Pale Order as another class? No problem, just slap on Summoner's Armor. Major + Minor Resolve + a unique 15% reduction to DOT damage taken + cost reduction on your summons for 30 seconds. Still not enough? Spirit Guardian heals a decent bit and gives a unique 10% reduction to damage taken. Still not enough survivability? OK, how about this. Since you're getting your Major weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell crit bonuses from key skills that every necro uses (syphon and skeleton mage) you could run armor or CC immunity potions. Or Heroism potions so you can use Goliath more often. Or if you don't need Goliath for defense, running Heroism potions means more Ice Comets/Shooting Stars, which in turn means more healing from Pale Order.

I don't play Infinite Grind Archive so admittedly I don't know how good necro is there, but I've soloed many world bosses and I've also done vMA on a necro with very little issue. This is literally some of the hardest solo content in the game and I breezed through it on my necro, so I don't quite understand what you're talking about.

Skills arent the same, and rotation as well, so it changes quite a bit and that what I was referring to as well.You drop so much for survivability, while other classes can keep their rotation and be fine with pale order. Almost any class have built in healing into their dps/damage support kit (surge, puncturing sweep, burning embers, pragmatic fatecarver and flail, killers blade and swallow soul, bond with nature lotus flower - all of those are damage skills, damage buffs or passives that heal while you do DAMAGE, and necros only comparable skill is sythe, BUT ITS A TANK SKILL!).

I have vMA and vVH trifectas(veteran+speedrun+no death) done on my necro, so I know its survivable enough, and can pull up nice damage.
Point is, doing those trifectas was esier on every other class, as I have done them on plar, dk, sorc, and nb as well. Necro is okay for PvE, im not saying that its unplayable, but he have areas at which he needs more love, more QoL, to bring it up to other classes in performance. And those same improvements apply to PvP, again it has nothing to do with numbers you can pull off as necro. If this game was a text RPG necros would be decent everywhere then no doubt. But is an action game, with a lot of fast pace movement, lots of different minor things happening at the same and its simply more convinient for any other class out there then for necromancer.

Except for tanking. PvE Necro tanks are gods in flesh, the top of the foodchain, and kings of tanking meta.

BasP · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

PvE is also a wide spectre of activities, if we talking about 12 men composition than yeah as presented from eso statistics necros are good both as DPS as well support, if talking about 4 men content then yeah necros are still good as supports but DPS starts to falling off a little, if we talking solo Arenas/IA then no, stuff like Pale Order not trigerring from pets damage, as well as lack of strong group buff make necro fall short to almost every other class.

When it comes to 4 man pve content while it is true that your damage falls off, it isn't because of necro's toolkit. Your sets function the same, your skills function the same, your food buff functions the same, your race functions the same, your potions function the same, your rotation is the same. Literally the only difference is the fact you have 2 fewer supports. That's why your damage is lower. Not because your class magically does less damage with fewer people.

As for solo content, it's toolkit is way stronger than you think, and one of the main reasons why is the same reason I outlined why it's not so good when humping the trial dummy. Penetration. Literally the most important damage stat while you're under its cap, and necro gets 1500 of it for free. Oh, and let's not forget AOE Major Breach on Boneyard, which is a skill that's a cornerstone of any necro build. And did I mention Boneyard also has Minor Vulnerability? Not getting as much healing from Pale Order as another class? No problem, just slap on Summoner's Armor. Major + Minor Resolve + a unique 15% reduction to DOT damage taken + cost reduction on your summons for 30 seconds. Still not enough? Spirit Guardian heals a decent bit and gives a unique 10% reduction to damage taken. Still not enough survivability? OK, how about this. Since you're getting your Major weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell crit bonuses from key skills that every necro uses (syphon and skeleton mage) you could run armor or CC immunity potions. Or Heroism potions so you can use Goliath more often. Or if you don't need Goliath for defense, running Heroism potions means more Ice Comets/Shooting Stars, which in turn means more healing from Pale Order.

I don't play Infinite Grind Archive so admittedly I don't know how good necro is there, but I've soloed many world bosses and I've also done vMA on a necro with very little issue. This is literally some of the hardest solo content in the game and I breezed through it on my necro, so I don't quite understand what you're talking about.

Almost any class have built in healing into their dps/damage support kit (surge, puncturing sweep, burning embers, pragmatic fatecarver and flail, killers blade and swallow soul, bond with nature lotus flower - all of those are damage skills, damage buffs or passives that heal while you do DAMAGE, and necros only comparable skill is sythe, BUT ITS A TANK SKILL!).

I definitely agree. While the unique 10% damage reduction from Spirit Guardian is nice, I'd personally get more value out of a good DPS skill with a shield like Pragmatic Fatecarver or passive healing like Sweeps/ Radiant Glory.

It'd be cool if the Scythe's base damage would be brought up to par (Cephaliarch's Flail deals 7.8% more damage than Ruinous Scythe) and if both the cost and healing from one of Scythe's morph would depend on your offensive stats. If it had a small bit of Execute scaling on top, to go with the theme, that'd be even better.

Or perhaps some sort of passive healing could be added to its passives, similar to Bond With Nature/ Blood Magic. "When you consume a corpse, you heal for X." The Corpse Consumption passive sounds fitting for such a thing.

YandereGirlfriend · October 16

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

Maybe in 2025 we'll get Execute scaling for Scythe. One can dream.

Urvoth · October 17

C_Inside wrote: »

I understand that most, if not all, of necro's pain points at the moment happen to do with pvp, but the narrative surrounding necro still involves its capability as a pve dps class specifically. I just wanted to set the record straight by laying out the facts that necro, right now, is way better for pve dps than people make it out to be. If you're not playing necro dd in pve because "they" told you it's bad then "they" are just wrong.

I also want to point out that terms like "stamcro" and "magcro" are mostly obsolete in today's game of ESO thanks to hybridization. The only reason your "magcro" is doing less damage than your "stamcro" is because you're using weaker sets or weaker skills. If you literally take your "stamcro" and put all its points into magicka instead then you'd be doing the exact same damage. OK, ok, you'll do a teeny, tiny, wee bit less damage if you happen to be running Perfected Rele since that gets a max stamina bonus line.

Nowadays the only reason why you'd pick mag over stam is if you want Necrotic Orb's synergy to restore a specific resource or if you happen to be using a set that has max mag or max stam as a bonus line.

You still have mag/stam classes in PvP for the most part. Yeah, a lot are partially hybridized but it’s nowhere near like it is in PvE.

mdjessup4906 · October 17

Yes, for PvE its a decent class.

I love my necro tank. I just wish they'd give us a proper cc skill like dk or sorc have. Like, a ton of necro npcs have that grabby hand that pops up out of the ground and holds you in place, why tf don't we? 3-6 little grabby hands that come up and hold adds. Make the pvp morph have a delay or whatever if you have to.

Aldoss · October 17

Yes, its decent in PvP.

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

Make the pvp morph have a delay or whatever if you have to.

Please do not give them any more ideas that make us have even more delayed skills!

Our entire kit is delayed. We don't need more. We need less!

necro_the_crafter · October 17

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Maybe in 2025 we'll get Execute scaling for Scythe. One can dream.

And a corpse every 3rd cast, that would make it parialy something more like a flail.

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

I love my necro tank. I just wish they'd give us a proper cc skill like dk or sorc have. Like, a ton of necro npcs have that grabby hand that pops up out of the ground and holds you in place, why tf don't we? 3-6 little grabby hands that come up and hold adds. Make the pvp morph have a delay or whatever if you have to.

Dont think that dealy is needed, i would understand a delay on a stun that has a lot of range, but every other class have a lot of good instant roots and stuns, and I dont see why necros shouldnt have one too.