Do you consider normal Trials to be endgame content?

Amottica · February 2024

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I consider them about the middle of midgame, a stepping stone towards endgame but definitely not endgame. That said, normal trials just like normal dungeons have entirely different strategies and culture than veteran due to those who intend to full burn through normal in ways that wouldn’t even work for vet (like having 1 tank in DSR).

Level 50 is the highest level a character can obtain (CP is not character-based). Any content that requires the character to be lvl 50 is end game by definition.

You don’t need to be level 50 to do a normal trial. That said, I think its the fault of ZOS’ leveling system. Level 50, cp 10 is much different than level 50, cp 500. I believe the definition of maximum level is level 50 + the CP required to get 4 stars per constellation and all passives because thats functionally the last level you need.

While CP does improve performance it is not relevent to a player being at a level where they can access end-game content. CP does not even mean the player or character will perform well.

When I started this game about two years ago I was able to out-damage high CP DPS even though I was the healer and my only damage was coming from WoW and heavy attacks. At CP 160 I was superior to CP2k players, than two high CP players combined.

Of course, it doesn't mean a high level CP is going to be skilled, but in terms of what we're defining the highest level as, the last CP level that you really get anything out of makes the most sense. Besides, you need to be CP 300 to get into vDLC dungeons using group finder (at least, as far as others have said, I can't check this myself) so it's not totally irrelevant. I cannot get behind 50 being the divider.

This thread is not asking what is the highest-level content. It is not asking to define the highest level content. The question si very specific to what is end-game content which, by definition, is anything that requires a max-level character and that is level 50.

Heck, even the requirements GF places to queue for certain dungeons is not relevant as that has set a higher standard than just being able to access the content.

I didn’t say highest level content, I meant highest level character. Apologies for the lack of clarity. By the same token, if the GF having CP requirements means nothing (even though it goes to show you do not unlock everything at level 50, which is more evidence towards it not being max level) then so does any level, at least with normal content. I think you need to be level 50 to unlock veteran but veteran isn’t the point of this thread. You can walk into a normal dungeon or trial at level 10 and complete it. You may or may not have to be carried, but you can do it. Normal content isn’t endgame by any sense of the word. You don’t need to be max level, no matter where you set max level as.

Did I say the GF requirement for CP does not mean anything? If so I misspoke and my sincerest apologies.

It means something as for restrictions for using the GF to find a group for content that is CP gated in the GF. The requirements for the GF are set due to feedback from players not wanting to run with extremely inexperienced players.

Unless it has changed recently, and I doubt it has, the CP gate in the GF is relevant only when using the GF and does not pertain to the requirements set by the game/Zenimax for entering the content when not using the GF.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is an opinion, not a fact.

It's an opinion that normal trials are end game content. The fact is that normal trials are very casual, and most definately not end game content. Anyone can easily complete a normal trial. That means it's not end game content.

You created a poll and asked the question directly. 75% of respondents have stated that normal trials are not end game content.

Since there is no concrete definition, both views are nothing but opinions. More players may believe one way than the other, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Major_Toughness · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Not in the slightest.

spartaxoxo · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

These are the relevant facts:

All trials were designed to be completed by levels 50+ and the general ideal from players is a minimum of CP 160.

There is no concrete and formal definition for endgame as it relates to MMOs. There are multiple informal definitions that can be found on Google.

Normal Trials can be completed by most people, and they do not require high levels, good gear, or extensive experience.

Some people in the game purposely do them without armor.

Some players have experience doing them at low levels.

Some players find normal trials difficult.

Edit

Since there is no concrete definition, people will have different definitions for it. And those definitions are opinion. I will say that the most useful one is the one related to difficulty, imo, since that's what the majority feels. And communication is generally about everyone understanding each other.

I feel like this is important to distinguish because opinions aren't facts.

Braffin · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

spartaxoxo wrote: »

These are the relevant facts:

All trials were designed to be completed by levels 50+ and the general ideal from players is a minimum of CP 160.

Are you aware, that the original craglorn trials, created for lvl 50 CP 160 (well, not exactly, but that's not important), were the veteran version of said content?

The normal versions were added in updates 10 and 11.

They also were/are (don't know if it's still the case) scaled to the level of group leader.

Wolfshade · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

1. Eso is and should be an mixture of player-skill and game-understandment. Just because it`s 12 player contend, for me, this is no endgame cause none of booth is really needed to clear normal contend.

2. Like in 4 Player content, normal-trials should be the step to get ready/prepared for Vet. There you need skill, game-understandment and group-mechanics. In normal it`s not needed.

3. In Endgame for groups in an mmo there should be the use of many group-mechanics that the game gives to the players. In normal it`s not needed.

FlopsyPrince · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

I am VERY SKEPTICAL of claims that "normal trials" were made to be "easy" in the ways noted.

I have only done a few Vet dungeons. How can Trials be "easy"?

Maybe they are as some here assert, but that is not as plain and simple as many of you who seem to do harder Trials indicate. Running normal dungeons would seem easy if you have been running vet/hm ones. That doesn't prove that all normal dungeons are easy.

Even Fungal Grotto can be bumpy for those who get left behind in a rush clear. (I have been in that spot.)

Clearing Wayrest Sewers 2 was challenging with a recent PUG I had. I would have to be seriously convinced that any Trials really are easy.

Braffin · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I am VERY SKEPTICAL of claims that "normal trials" were made to be "easy" in the ways noted.

I have only done a few Vet dungeons. How can Trials be "easy"?

Maybe they are as some here assert, but that is not as plain and simple as many of you who seem to do harder Trials indicate. Running normal dungeons would seem easy if you have been running vet/hm ones. That doesn't prove that all normal dungeons are easy.

Even Fungal Grotto can be bumpy for those who get left behind in a rush clear. (I have been in that spot.)

Clearing Wayrest Sewers 2 was challenging with a recent PUG I had. I would have to be seriously convinced that any Trials really are easy.

Convince yourself by simply joining a group via finder. Experiencing something for yourself is the best way to learn about it.

spartaxoxo · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

These are the relevant facts:

All trials were designed to be completed by levels 50+ and the general ideal from players is a minimum of CP 160.

Are you aware, that the original craglorn trials, created for lvl 50 CP 160 (well, not exactly, but that's not important), were the veteran version of said content?

The normal versions were added in updates 10 and 11.

They also were/are (don't know if it's still the case) scaled to the level of group leader.

I do remember being scaled to the level of group leader, didn't remember the rest. Regardless, it's not really contradictory to my point they were designed with level 50+ in mind. The "+" means higher than level 50. Also I think the repeatable quest nowadays requires level 50+.

Braffin · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

These are the relevant facts:

All trials were designed to be completed by levels 50+ and the general ideal from players is a minimum of CP 160.

Are you aware, that the original craglorn trials, created for lvl 50 CP 160 (well, not exactly, but that's not important), were the veteran version of said content?

The normal versions were added in updates 10 and 11.

They also were/are (don't know if it's still the case) scaled to the level of group leader.

I do remember being scaled to the level of group leader, didn't remember the rest. Regardless, it's not really contradictory to my point they were designed with level 50+ in mind. The "+" means higher than level 50. Also I think the repeatable quest nowadays requires level 50+.

I only disagree with "were designed with lvl 50 in mind", not with anything else.

They were definitely scaleable far below lvl 50.

A quite amusing discussion back then:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/290313/playing-trials-on-downscale-allowed-or-exploit-clearification-please

I don't know if that's still the case tho.

Afaik zos never recommended a specific level for normal trials, while they are playable right after the tutorial.

I also don't take dailies into consideration, as dungeon pledges require us to be lvl 45, while FG1 is recommended at lvl 10 during original progression.

spartaxoxo · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Braffin wrote: »

I only disagree with "were designed with lvl 50 in mind", not with anything else.

It's not exactly the same as back then and according to the Wiki they restrict the quest for rewards to level 50+.

For example

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Mage's_Tower

They don't go by the group leader anymore. And I think that quest is a good idea of who the devs have in mind since One Tamriel.

But it's possible that they still wanted under level 50s to go in there since their entry is not outright forbidden. But I don't think they'd forbid them from getting all of the loot if the current design had them in mind

FlopsyPrince · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

While I agree with the division, it may be that a binary option here is not applicable, at least for many here. It does not allow that a range exists, not just a single "end game" final level.

Soarora · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

I am VERY SKEPTICAL of claims that "normal trials" were made to be "easy" in the ways noted.

I have only done a few Vet dungeons. How can Trials be "easy"?

Maybe they are as some here assert, but that is not as plain and simple as many of you who seem to do harder Trials indicate. Running normal dungeons would seem easy if you have been running vet/hm ones. That doesn't prove that all normal dungeons are easy.

Even Fungal Grotto can be bumpy for those who get left behind in a rush clear. (I have been in that spot.)

Clearing Wayrest Sewers 2 was challenging with a recent PUG I had. I would have to be seriously convinced that any Trials really are easy.

I don't think the "it's easy for you but not for me" argument really works. As I have said elsewhere, I thought DLC dungeons were a lot harder than I do now, but I wouldn't have considered myself an endgamer at the time because I had just started the game. If "it must be hard" is the determination of what endgame is, then for example, is SS HM now not endgame because I find healing it boring? No, SS HM is still endgame because it's hardmode. If a good group full burns Vrol HM in KA within 3 minutes, is it not endgame anymore? No, it's also still hardmode. If it is a matter of what the supposed majority is able to accomplish, then what about when I was excited to solo a dark anchor? Is a dark anchor endgame? Is soloing a DLC worldboss endgame? No, we cannot say endgame is based on what we personally find difficult. If we did, the scale would be all over the place, putting us always as being an endgamer. There is nothing wrong with never reaching endgame. There is nothing wrong with finding normal content difficult. We can't lump people who have Planesbreaker and people who do normal fungal grotto 1 as their main content in the same category though. They're on completely different scales (apart from the difficulty argument, objectively a trial trifecta and a normal non-dlc dungeon have a giant content gap between them).

Braffin · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I only disagree with "were designed with lvl 50 in mind", not with anything else.

It's not exactly the same as back then and according to the Wiki they restrict the quest for rewards to level 50+.

For example

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Mage's_Tower

They don't go by the group leader anymore. And I think that quest is a good idea of who the devs have in mind since One Tamriel.

But it's possible that they still wanted under level 50s to go in there since their entry is not outright forbidden. But I don't think they'd forbid them from getting all of the loot if the current design had them in mind

Thanks for the updated information.

Nonetheless, when trials were designed initially, there wasn't a normal mode, but only veteran mode meant as endgame.

With U9 MoL was introduced as first DLC-trial, including a normal mode for more casual oriented players. Normal mode of craglorn trials were added in U10/11. All of that drastically increased their accessibility.

So, while I agree, that veteran trials were always intended as PvE-endgame, normal trials were and are nothing more than a radically simplified version of that content.

They work exactly like normal dungeons, except they are created for bigger groups, making them practically non-soloable.

Now grouping definitely isn't endgame in an mmo, regardless some people (not you, talking more general now) trying to claim exactly that.

It's a core part of every multiplayer game available, wether the soloists like that or not and players locking themselves purposefully out of content due to personal decisions (which are perfectly viable in itself) shouldn't be catered to specifically above all others.

All of that is completely unrelated to weekly endeavors of course.

spartaxoxo · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Braffin wrote: »

So, while I agree, that veteran trials were always intended as PvE-endgame, normal trials were and are nothing more than a radically simplified version of that content.

I don't disagree with any of that. But I also know they don't allow under level 50 to get all the rewards. Since they require level 50 for full participation, I think it's pretty obvious that is the level they had in mind.

Level 50 isn't even enough to finish the gear level progression, so I don't personally think that detracts at all from the idea that they are not endgame.

CP5 · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

While I agree with the division, it may be that a binary option here is not applicable, at least for many here. It does not allow that a range exists, not just a single "end game" final level.

Exactly, if people can state 'normal trials are easy end game' then how come that same idea of a gradient doesn't exist across the entire spectrum of a content type? Like comparing BC1 at level 10 to a dlc dungeon's trifecta achievement. Lumping them both together because they are instanced group content ignores both the difficulty of the content and their intended audiences.

JustLovely · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is an opinion, not a fact.

It's an opinion that normal trials are end game content. The fact is that normal trials are very casual, and most definately not end game content. Anyone can easily complete a normal trial. That means it's not end game content.

You created a poll and asked the question directly. 75% of respondents have stated that normal trials are not end game content.

Since there is no concrete definition, both views are nothing but opinions. More players may believe one way than the other, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Actually, the word normal does have a concrete definition.

noun

1.
the usual, average, or typical state or condition.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

That is an opinion, not a fact.

It's an opinion that normal trials are end game content. The fact is that normal trials are very casual, and most definately not end game content. Anyone can easily complete a normal trial. That means it's not end game content.

You created a poll and asked the question directly. 75% of respondents have stated that normal trials are not end game content.

Since there is no concrete definition, both views are nothing but opinions. More players may believe one way than the other, but that doesn't make it a fact.

Actually, the word normal does have a concrete definition.

noun

1.
the usual, average, or typical state or condition.

The world "normal" in this case is referring to one of the difficulty levels of a trial, which also includes veteran and veteran hardmode. Normal is the difficulty level, but it's still the same type of content. It's still a trial.

Varana · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

That's a bit like "walking to my fridge to get a second helping of ice cream" and "running a marathon in mid-summer Rome" are the same type of activity.
Technically yes - you move on your legs to go somewhere. But, like, yeah.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

Varana wrote: »

That's a bit like "walking to my fridge to get a second helping of ice cream" and "running a marathon in mid-summer Rome" are the same type of activity.
Technically yes - you move on your legs to go somewhere. But, like, yeah.

It's not the same at all. The fridge and a marathon in Rome are two completely different places with two completely different goals. Whereas a normal trial and a veteran or veteran hardmode trial are the same final goal .. complete a trial.

Varana · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Well, that depends on what characteristic you use to define same-ness...

But I assume you got the point. Just declaring these types of activity "the same" is ... simply random, or rather, just based on the intention to use this as an argument in a completely unrelated discussion.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

Varana wrote: »

Well, that depends on what characteristic you use to define same-ness...

But I assume you got the point. Just declaring these types of activity "the same" is ... simply random, or rather, just based on the intention to use this as an argument in a completely unrelated discussion.

This question came up in another thread and it was significant enough that I felt it would be beneficial to discuss and find out what others thought of this topic specifically.

What I've discovered is that some define endgame as how difficult the content is and others define it as the type of content. It's my opinion that all trials are the same type of content regardless of their difficulty level.

OolongSnakeTea · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

[snip] This is not to be rude, this is merely stating a fact- that normal trials are not end game, but merely an entry to get to end game. The sets you get form there can be use in veteran content (4s and 12s alike) to be sucessful in end game without the grind and pain points of gear inbetween.

[edited for baiting]

CP5 · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Here's an example.

In ESO, you have housing. You begin housing likely with a small simple house, furnished haphazardly with basic items. As you delve deeper into housing, you get a better idea on how to cleverly use props to make interesting scenes, in larger homes, with more detailed embellishments. An End Game houser can combine different props to make entirely new ones, remodel homes so that they are unrecognizable from what they started out as, going far beyond what anyone else can make in a house. If you've ever visited one of these expert home furnishers, you'll understand the quality bar I'm referring to on this.

In another game, say, for example, Sonic, a casual player focuses on just playing through the game, clearing levels as they come. As players progress, they begin to get the timing down on different techniques, are more responsive to threats, and maybe even replay levels to learn them better. An End Game Sonic player has individual levels practiced to a T, are as proficient with the controls as they can get, and work on perfecting their runs of levels to complete them as quickly as possible.

End Game in the vast majority of definitions I've seen it at is 'the piece of content where your mastery of the game is tested.' If you're still learning the game, and there is content harder than what you're currently tackling, you aren't at end game. Normal trials fit nicely in the mid-game section, where players who have a basic understanding of the game, maybe a few normal dungeons (which start at level 10) under their belts, can get a taste of what 12 man content looks like.

The question I have is, if instanced group content for max level characters is the definition of end game, but dungeons offer content to players openly down to level 10, are dungeons end game? If not, how come trials are all lumped together?

Aurielle · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

Varana wrote: »

That's a bit like "walking to my fridge to get a second helping of ice cream" and "running a marathon in mid-summer Rome" are the same type of activity.
Technically yes - you move on your legs to go somewhere. But, like, yeah.

Here’s a better analogy.

Say you’ve got a 100m stretch of sidewalk, with some cones set up along the way. Anyone can get from one end of the sidewalk to the other by walking, jogging, sprinting, rolling down the sidewalk in a wheelchair, getting physically carried by another person from one end to the other, etc, completely bypassing the cones in the process. Literally anyone can do it, even a young child who is walking down a 100m stretch of sidewalk for the very first time in their lives. It’s a casual, accessible activity. They could do it barefoot, if they like. This is a normal trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that exact same sidewalk in 25 seconds. Not everyone can do this. This is a veteran trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that sidewalk in 15 seconds while leaping over the cones. Even fewer can do this. This is a veteran hard mode trial. Only two of these things require considerable practice and “gearing up” (running shoes) to complete. I would assume that no rational person would consider these three activities to be equivalent, even though they’re completed in the exact same location, with the exact same overarching goal of getting from point A to point B.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

CP5 wrote: »

The question I have is, if instanced group content for max level characters is the definition of end game, but dungeons offer content to players openly down to level 10, are dungeons end game? If not, how come trials are all lumped together?

I personally don't consider dungeons as endgame because they can easily be accessed by all levels of players and are good experience when leveling. Plus they offer skill points when completing their quests which is important when leveling. Trials are for larger groups and are where max level players go for a challenge.

Some may not find a normal trial to be a challenge, but some do. And regardless of the difficulty level they are all still trials and the same type of content.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

Aurielle wrote: »

Here’s a better analogy.

Say you’ve got a 100m stretch of sidewalk, with some cones set up along the way. Anyone can get from one end of the sidewalk to the other by walking, jogging, sprinting, rolling down the sidewalk in a wheelchair, getting physically carried by another person from one end to the other, etc, completely bypassing the cones in the process. Literally anyone can do it, even a young child who is walking down a 100m stretch of sidewalk for the very first time in their lives. It’s a casual, accessible activity. They could do it barefoot, if they like. This is a normal trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that exact same sidewalk in 25 seconds. Not everyone can do this. This is a veteran trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that sidewalk in 15 seconds while leaping over the cones. Even fewer can do this. This is a veteran hard mode trial. Only two of these things require considerable practice and “gearing up” (running shoes) to complete. I would assume that no rational person would consider these three activities to be equivalent, even though they’re completed in the exact same location, with the exact same overarching goal of getting from point A to point B.

This analogy accurately describes the differences between the different trial difficulties, which I've never disputed. What it doesn't do is show that a normal trial isn't still a trial and the same type of content, which is how I define endgame.

Aurielle · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Here’s a better analogy.

Say you’ve got a 100m stretch of sidewalk, with some cones set up along the way. Anyone can get from one end of the sidewalk to the other by walking, jogging, sprinting, rolling down the sidewalk in a wheelchair, getting physically carried by another person from one end to the other, etc, completely bypassing the cones in the process. Literally anyone can do it, even a young child who is walking down a 100m stretch of sidewalk for the very first time in their lives. It’s a casual, accessible activity. They could do it barefoot, if they like. This is a normal trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that exact same sidewalk in 25 seconds. Not everyone can do this. This is a veteran trial. Now imagine someone sprinting to the end of that sidewalk in 15 seconds while leaping over the cones. Even fewer can do this. This is a veteran hard mode trial. Only two of these things require considerable practice and “gearing up” (running shoes) to complete. I would assume that no rational person would consider these three activities to be equivalent, even though they’re completed in the exact same location, with the exact same overarching goal of getting from point A to point B.

This analogy accurately describes the differences between the different trial difficulties, which I've never disputed. What it doesn't do is show that a normal trial isn't still a trial and the same type of content, which is how I define endgame.

Content that can be completed by a relatively new player with no prior experience (the young child, in my analogy) would not be considered “end game” by any traditional MMORPG definition of “end game.” It doesn’t really matter that the content is completed in the same location. Getting from point A to point B isn’t the same type of activity if there are dramatically different requirements for completion, if one version requires gearing and practice while the other does not.

The main problem we have here is that people have, over the years, decided that “end game” means whatever they personally want it to mean. The term “end game” used to mean something. This isn’t a new problem — I’ve been seeing people skewing the definition of end game to fit whatever they want it to fit since at least 2010 or so. It coincides with the increasing casualization of all MMOs (not just this one). As an old school MMORPG player, it’s pretty dang annoying.

And on that note, I’m out.

SilverBride · February 2024

Normal trials are endgame content

Aurielle wrote: »

The term “end game” used to mean something. This isn’t a new problem — I’ve been seeing people skewing the definition of end game to fit whatever they want it to fit since at least 2010 or so. It coincides with the increasing casualization of all MMOs (not just this one). As an old school MMORPG player, it’s pretty dang annoying.

I'm old school too and I'm basing my definition of endgame on how it was always defined in other games I've played.

But as has been said, there is no concrete definition for what endgame is so all we have are our perspectives.

CP5 · February 2024

Normal trials are not endgame content

SilverBride wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The question I have is, if instanced group content for max level characters is the definition of end game, but dungeons offer content to players openly down to level 10, are dungeons end game? If not, how come trials are all lumped together?

I personally don't consider dungeons as endgame because they can easily be accessed by all levels of players and are good experience when leveling. Plus they offer skill points when completing their quests which is important when leveling. Trials are for larger groups and are where max level players go for a challenge.

Some may not find a normal trial to be a challenge, but some do. And regardless of the difficulty level they are all still trials and the same type of content.

But then, by the binary label, dungeons are casual content. Tell me how a Frostvault trifecta, a speed run, hard mode, no death, involving a very demanding timed maze section is casual content? All dungeons are dungeons, yes, but not all dungeons are a good experience when leveling, and you don't go to Frostvault to get a trifecta achievement until you're at end game. Not all dungeons are casual. Not all dungeons are end game. They contain difficulty levels that allow the dungeons to cater to different difficulty levels and interest. Same goes for trials.