Templar Burst Ability (Backlash)

BlackHammer225 · February 3

Dev's I hope you guys are still keeping track of the ability (Backlash) aka Power of the light / Purifying light. For the players who will see this post, I'm not asking for a buff, just an INTENDED FIX for Backlash ever since the thresh hold has been increased on this ability.

1. The only change I want for Templars's burst ability is to reduce the damage threshold needed to achieve the intended 200% increase in damage for the ability.

MashmalloMan · February 3

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

Kite42 · February 3

Does this skill actually work?

Turtle_Bot · February 3

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

I always thought the issue was it was being double dipped by battle spirit. It copies the damage that has already been reduced, then battle spirit reduces the damage it does on top of that (or something to that effect).

FirmamentOfStars · February 3

Generally it just hits super weak like 2-4k, if its not an ult combo or paired with an acuity build.

Iuppiterr · February 3

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

The problem comes from PVP: Because of battle spirit you need double the damage to reach it (aka the whole 6 secs on pure damage) and then the damage that comes out is reduced from battle spirit aswell. Other Classes like nightblades have to do 5 light attacks just somewhere against someone to have a more potent burst on demand. Thats what th Templar base is so mad about. They need to work 5 times as hard as other Classes for a 5 times worse damage output.

ketsparrowhawk · February 3

Hasn't been worth slotting in quite some time now. Much more valuable options for that bar slot. Structured Entropy, for example.

Zodiarkslayer · February 3

Backlash hits like a wet noodle. Most players that use it do not check combat metrics. They use it more out of habit, than calculation.

In PvE you are better off slotting a weapon DoT.

VinnyGambini · February 3

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

They did lowered it ONCE. Right now the value is 36k. In PVE - easy. In PvP - close to impossible.

Billium813 · February 3

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Backlash hits like a wet noodle. Most players that use it do not check combat metrics. They use it more out of habit, than calculation.

Yeah, I am one of those players. I just can't stop trying to force PotL.

It rarely ever pops for more then 4k for me though. On average, it hits for about 2k. Most of the time it's disappointing.

Jman100582 · February 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

I always thought the issue was it was being double dipped by battle spirit. It copies the damage that has already been reduced, then battle spirit reduces the damage it does on top of that (or something to that effect).

Backlash doesn’t work like that anymore. It no longer “copies” damage. It works kind of like this:

Backlash has a base damage. Let’s say, 5,000 damage. When you deal a certain threshold of damage, it INCREASES that 5,000 base damage from backlash by 1%, up to 200%. The numbers aren’t exactly clear, but I think a pve build needs upwards of 60k+ dps to fully get the 200% increase. In pvp, a high damage build will have like 5-7k dps against a player. The threshold to get the increase is far too high for the ability to hit hard against a relatively tanky player. And against people who are squishy, you can just 2 tap them with crescent and beam anyways. The skill has been balanced around dps parsing for pve. That’s the actual issue

IncultaWolf · February 3

They killed this ability a while back, I've maybe seen it used in pve/pvp a couple times since they nerfed it, but that's it. Definitely not something that has ever shown up in my death recap for over a year.

Turtle_Bot · February 3

Jman100582 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Didn't they lower the threshold multiple times making it super easy to hit now?

I thought the problem with these skills is the payoff doesn't warrant the build up with how they nerfed Jabs and Backlash basically at the same time.

I always thought the issue was it was being double dipped by battle spirit. It copies the damage that has already been reduced, then battle spirit reduces the damage it does on top of that (or something to that effect).

Backlash doesn’t work like that anymore. It no longer “copies” damage. It works kind of like this:

Backlash has a base damage. Let’s say, 5,000 damage. When you deal a certain threshold of damage, it INCREASES that 5,000 base damage from backlash by 1%, up to 200%. The numbers aren’t exactly clear, but I think a pve build needs upwards of 60k+ dps to fully get the 200% increase. In pvp, a high damage build will have like 5-7k dps against a player. The threshold to get the increase is far too high for the ability to hit hard against a relatively tanky player. And against people who are squishy, you can just 2 tap them with crescent and beam anyways. The skill has been balanced around dps parsing for pve. That’s the actual issue

Thanks for the clarification. Hmmm, so making it easier to reach that cap in PvP is what needs to be adjusted then.

Meaning it needs to either:
- copy the damage done before that damage is reduced by battle spirit
- or the cap is significantly lowered while battle spirit is active

Udrath · February 4

I’d really like to see the max damage it can do on the tooltip like how the old one was. Then add some function where it recast itself upon completion if we meet the threshold, which would add the initial damage it does instantly after it blows. The threshold just needs to be obtainable. This way it’s more rewarding and allows us to stay offensive and would add small extra damage to the ability in PVP.; furthermore they should also add the burning status effect to the base morph and that would synergize well with burning light and jabs. Realistically this would add like 2-3k extra damage to POL and burning light would proc a bit more alongside the burning status in pvp.

Templar really just needs some quality of life changes. Like changing the rune duration to 25 seconds and adding some better bonuses to the healing skill tree passives. It’s a well rounded class despite how bad jabs looks now.

It’s wild that I can get it to crit for 40k in pvp gear in PVE, but it only hits 4-7k in a PvP zone against players, but I think that’s because undeath counters it hard. If that wasn’t there it’s actually pretty strong.

Jman100582 · February 4

Udrath wrote: »

I’d really like to see the max damage it can do on the tooltip like how the old one was. Then add some function where it recast itself upon completion if we meet the threshold, which would add the initial damage it does instantly after it blows. The threshold just needs to be obtainable. This way it’s more rewarding and allows us to stay offensive and would add small extra damage to the ability in PVP.; furthermore they should also add the burning status effect to the base morph and that would synergize well with burning light and jabs. Realistically this would add like 2-3k extra damage to POL and burning light would proc a bit more alongside the burning status in pvp.

Templar really just needs some quality of life changes. Like changing the rune duration to 25 seconds and adding some better bonuses to the healing skill tree passives. It’s a well rounded class despite how bad jabs looks now.

It’s wild that I can get it to crit for 40k in pvp gear in PVE, but it only hits 4-7k in a PvP zone against players, but I think that’s because undeath counters it hard. If that wasn’t there it’s actually pretty strong.

Well, it’s pretty easy to do the math for the theoretical max hit. You just take the explosion number and multiply it by 3 (the base explosion, and then the 200% increase). My build has a 5.3k tooltip with self-buffs and without continuous/glyphs. So it can technically hit for close to 16k. I think before it got changed my max explosion for copied dmg was like 22k or something like that. So not only did the ability get nerfed heavily for the final damage, they also made it impossible to hit the final damage cap with the new version in pvp. The skill desperately needs buffs for pvp players. Outside of acuity builds there’s really no way to get most players into execute range because the class has zero delayed burst outside of a well timed ultimate. And unlike other classes, plars entire offensive “power budget” is in an execute. It just makes it unenjoyable to play feeling useless 70% of the fight until it’s time to steal kills

Cloudrest · February 4

Honestly, all they have to do to fix this ability is make it more feasible to reach the 200% damage bonus in PvP. Give us, say, another 10-15% thrown our way like they did 9 months ago, and I think the ability would be fine.

Power desperately needs to be taken out of beam and put back into jabs/sweeps and burning light, though-- which would also help Templar reach the 200% damage bonus more easily. Just revert the ability already, ZOS.

Iuppiterr · February 4

Cloudrest wrote: »

Honestly, all they have to do to fix this ability is make it more feasible to reach the 200% damage bonus in PvP. Give us, say, another 10-15% thrown our way like they did 9 months ago, and I think the ability would be fine.

Power desperately needs to be taken out of beam and put back into jabs/sweeps and burning light, though-- which would also help Templar reach the 200% damage bonus more easily. Just revert the ability already, ZOS.

10-15% wouldnt do a lot i think, if the threshhold ist 60K damage for 6 secs and you tune it down to 50k you will still never hit it in pvp against someone with 30K armor who mayble blocks 1 or 2 secs of it.

I would love to see a change like:

When you do for example 5K damage with a templar ability while Backlash is active on the enemy, the damage of that templar ability counts twice as much towards the backlash threshhold, so 10K in this example. The problem is, that you have to play templar abilities for that to work and that is maybe a bummer for some builds. And pls buff Jabs back

gariondavey · February 4

Why do we have to pump damage into people for our delayed burst to work, but curse, shalks, blastbones are just fire and forget?

Congrats, not only is your delayed damage skill the weakest across all classes, but it also requires so much more than other classes to even make it function.

Iuppiterr · February 4

gariondavey wrote: »

Why do we have to pump damage into people for our delayed burst to work, but curse, shalks, blastbones are just fire and forget?

Congrats, not only is your delayed damage skill the weakest across all classes, but it also requires so much more than other classes to even make it function.

I think its totally fine that we have to "work" for it, normally you should burst in a couple seconds anyways and the damage of backlash is delayed + undodgeable. Otherwise the class would just be the same than the other classes u mentioned

the1andonlyskwex · February 4

Here's an idea:

Instead of always lasting 6 seconds with the final hit scaling off of damage done, change it so that the final hit is always max size but only goes off after a damage threshold (or long period of time, like 20-30 seconds) is reached.

This would have the following effects:
1) It will be better in PvP because it will always hit for the maximum delayed burst.
2) It will be better for PvE damage because with high enough DPS it can be cast more frequently
3) It will be better for support builds because the heal/breach will last longer before needing to be recast
4) It will have an interesting new mechanic

Iuppiterr · February 4

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here's an idea:

Instead of always lasting 6 seconds with the final hit scaling off of damage done, change it so that the final hit is always max size but only goes off after a damage threshold (or long period of time, like 20-30 seconds) is reached.

This would have the following effects:
1) It will be better in PvP because it will always hit for the maximum delayed burst.
2) It will be better for PvE damage because with high enough DPS it can be cast more frequently
3) It will be better for support builds because the heal/breach will last longer before needing to be recast
4) It will have an interesting new mechanic

The Problem is that its not predictable, so not good in pvp to time it

the1andonlyskwex · February 4

Iuppiterr wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here's an idea:

Instead of always lasting 6 seconds with the final hit scaling off of damage done, change it so that the final hit is always max size but only goes off after a damage threshold (or long period of time, like 20-30 seconds) is reached.

This would have the following effects:
1) It will be better in PvP because it will always hit for the maximum delayed burst.
2) It will be better for PvE damage because with high enough DPS it can be cast more frequently
3) It will be better for support builds because the heal/breach will last longer before needing to be recast
4) It will have an interesting new mechanic

The Problem is that its not predictable, so not good in pvp to time it

It would still be way better than what we have now. Also, for someone who's good at watching and adding damage numbers, it would probably be more predictable than you expect.

Zodiarkslayer · February 4

gariondavey wrote: »

Why do we have to pump damage into people for our delayed burst to work, but curse, shalks, blastbones are just fire and forget?

Congrats, not only is your delayed damage skill the weakest across all classes, but it also requires so much more than other classes to even make it function.

Because it started out as a "make an effort, get more effect" kind of ability. The way it worked previously was incentivising to build into high dps, by offering higher burst damage.
I remember parses with 10k dps for Power of the Light. That was something.

The way it got changed destroyed Backlash. Not the way it was originally incepted.

ealdwin · February 4

Here's an alternative idea that might work:

(Note: as with most of DW abilities, this would arguably work better if the duration was set and not affected by a passive whose sole function is to increase durations.... cough, update Templar passives ZOS, cough....)

The basic function is the same: beam of light on target, after it ends it goes boom for Burst Damage.

However, while this ability is active, dealing [Direct Damage / Damage with Templar abilities / some other deal A Damage requirement] to the marked target increases the final damage by X%, once per second.

So, if 200% damage increase is still the goal, each second (assuming 8 second duration) you can increase the modifier by 25%.

Honestly, just spitballing here, so be honest.

VinnyGambini · February 4

Iuppiterr wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Honestly, all they have to do to fix this ability is make it more feasible to reach the 200% damage bonus in PvP. Give us, say, another 10-15% thrown our way like they did 9 months ago, and I think the ability would be fine.

Power desperately needs to be taken out of beam and put back into jabs/sweeps and burning light, though-- which would also help Templar reach the 200% damage bonus more easily. Just revert the ability already, ZOS.

10-15% wouldnt do a lot i think, if the threshhold ist 60K damage for 6 secs and you tune it down to 50k you will still never hit it in pvp against someone with 30K armor who mayble blocks 1 or 2 secs of it.

I would love to see a change like:

When you do for example 5K damage with a templar ability while Backlash is active on the enemy, the damage of that templar ability counts twice as much towards the backlash threshhold, so 10K in this example. The problem is, that you have to play templar abilities for that to work and that is maybe a bummer for some builds. And pls buff Jabs back

I already posted this - it's not 60k. It is 36k. I have tested this, and I'm 1000000% sure. However, dealing 36k dmg in 5s window in PvP, where ppl dodge, block etc. is close to impossible. Acuity is the only answer to this - you have to pair acuity bonus with backlash - with acuity bonus you will do this 36k dmg in 5s, and backlash will crit for 10k. The sad and UNFAIR part is - as plar we have to use acuity, and pair our burst ability with set that has 25s cooldown. Other classes just press 1 button. UNFAIR, UNFAIR, UNFAIR.

I've thought about this ability many times, and it's just bad designed. Enemy can counter it extremly easily by just blocking for 5s, or run, or hide, so easy. IMO the best way it can be fixed, is to increase dmg by 10% every time you deal dmg, so LA>jabs is 4 hits. 5s jabs is 20 hits. This way, you have to stay offensive, but it's not nearly immposible to reach, and you are not forced to build acuity. ALSO this change is 100% neutral to PvE.