Endless Archive is bad for physical, mental, and familial health

Bushido2513 · October 2023

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn

So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Yeah but you just listed very unhealthy behavior as a lifestyle so how is that better?

Just tell me is it really overall better that I just ate all that sodium, fat, and carbs then sat back down for hours and that I'm doing that daily?

See I'll probably get bored/ get any gear I want and move on from archive a bit worn out.

I'm describing to you daily activities leading people to possibly put health on the back burner.

So it's not ok if I have a stroke during ea but it's ok if the pizza and sitting get me in the long run where a corner will just label it natural causes due to lifestyle?

Seems like the long term effects are worse just more subtle no?

Then imagine he didn't say "pizza" but "a healthy bowl of freshly cut salad from an organic, local and fair trade farm". Better?

Seriously, you can't have missed the point that it wasn't about eating some type of food daily, it was about being able to take a break from the game for a short time to do something else (eating, going for a walk, showering, doings sports, whatever) without being punished by the game mechanics for that.

Problem is that the people we're talking about don't care if you offer them a break. You're talking about a rational thinking person like me who wouldn't even bother with archive for an extended amount of time for the health sacrifice.

An addictive personality would just see the break you're describing as not even a thing to consider and keep going.

Slot machines are totally voluntary and you can get up at any time but an addict won't and that's the person we're talking about in these scenarios who I'm saying won't differentiate in what they do break or no break. To them the only punishment is loss of dopamine one way or the other so they will chase it with or without breaks involved.

Actually, I've been talking broadly for the most part, not just focusing on addicts. Broadly, designing a way to take an extended break from Endless Archive without punishing the player would be good for most people. I'm sure most people would appreciate not having to sacrifice other hobbies, family time, sleep, time touching grass, etc to get the experience they want, at the difficulty they want, from Endless Archive.

Addicts are going to play they game they way they want to play, regardless of how the content is designed, and regardless of their other responsibilities. In this case, I don't necessarily think it's the devs responsibility to force them to stop, because it's just not possible.

At some point, you have to take responsibility for yourself, and having a way to do that by stopping an Endless Archive run without being punished will go a long way for many of the complaints and issues people are bringing up, including my own.

Edit: I just realized you quoted somebody else there and not me, my bad lmao

However, I think my point still applies in the broad conversation in the thread.

No worries and I totally agree on the idea of making it easier on the player I just don't like the idea of saying it's for health reasons because that implies that ZOS has some responsibility that a game developer shouldn't.

There are committees dedicated to making judgements, laws, etc on those type of things but where things are otherwise legal, ZOS or any other creative should be able to put out a vision without having to be responsible for user choices.

More importantly though this game already supports way more health and lifestyle impacting practices so focusing on ea just for being upfront and to the point just doesn't make much sense unless you're going to also address the other issues as well.

Soraka · October 2023

I haven't tried it out, but if it is like this I guess I'll have more content I don't engage with much. I was under the impression a significant portion of the ESO player base was a population that can't log endless, unpaused hours a day. So it would be an interesting choice to try to force something for engagement when most aren't going to have the choice with work, family, etc.

As far as health there are lots of things researched and done for marketing that don't necessarily aim in favor of the player (gambling, FOMO). I don't like the idea of having limitations on my choices for health, but I also don't agree with unethical/predatory design meant to increase a gain for the creator at the expense of the consumer.

One thing that tends to go hand in hand with spending too much time doing something in game is the burnout that follows. Increased pushing and time doesn't always equal retention in the long term.

(I recognize this was probably in response to people who want harder content so I continue to advocate for options to let casual players be casual while hardcore players can be hardcore).

Bushido2513 · October 2023

Soraka wrote: »

I haven't tried it out, but if it is like this I guess I'll have more content I don't engage with much. I was under the impression a significant portion of the ESO player base was a population that can't log endless, unpaused hours a day. So it would be an interesting choice to try to force something for engagement when most aren't going to have the choice with work, family, etc.

As far as health there are lots of things researched and done for marketing that don't necessarily aim in favor of the player (gambling, FOMO). I don't like the idea of having limitations on my choices for health, but I also don't agree with unethical/predatory design meant to increase a gain for the creator at the expense of the consumer.

One thing that tends to go hand in hand with spending too much time doing something in game is the burnout that follows. Increased pushing and time doesn't always equal retention in the long term.

(I recognize this was probably in response to people who want harder content so I continue to advocate for options to let casual players be casual while hardcore players can be hardcore).

I do find it interesting to talk about predatory design and talk about this game. I think you always have to watch what predatory really means. ESO offers an option but they aren't the only game in town for sure.

For me if the dollar/hour ratio of entertainment is good then I can't complain. Everyone should have some similar metric to judge if any time/money investment here is worth it but sometimes to figure out that ratio you have to engage in bad exchanges including predatory ones.

It would be nice if everyone was nice in business but since there not it's good to have and hopefully learn from experiences that aren't terrible but include teachable moments.

I think EA has potential to be learned from but to also evolve over time. I really do doubt they will leave it as is.

Soraka · October 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I do find it interesting to talk about predatory design and talk about this game. I think you always have to watch what predatory really means. ESO offers an option but they aren't the only game in town for sure.

For me if the dollar/hour ratio of entertainment is good then I can't complain. Everyone should have some similar metric to judge if any time/money investment here is worth it but sometimes to figure out that ratio you have to engage in bad exchanges including predatory ones.

It would be nice if everyone was nice in business but since there not it's good to have and hopefully learn from experiences that aren't terrible but include teachable moments.

I think EA has potential to be learned from but to also evolve over time. I really do doubt they will leave it as is.

Yeah that's definitely true and the reality of how things work. At the end of the day it's a business and I'm still choosing to play and support this game despite some misgivings I have about things.

As for EA, my personal time constraints will probably work against the FOMO factor because depending on how rewards work they probably won't even look accomplishable. I can accept that, I have with several aspects of the game and enjoy the areas I am able to or want to play. A save feature or something wouldn't be disappointing to me, though. Even if it came with penalties if it's own. Might make me more interested in investing the time I do have into the feature.

Bushido2513 · October 2023

Soraka wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I do find it interesting to talk about predatory design and talk about this game. I think you always have to watch what predatory really means. ESO offers an option but they aren't the only game in town for sure.

For me if the dollar/hour ratio of entertainment is good then I can't complain. Everyone should have some similar metric to judge if any time/money investment here is worth it but sometimes to figure out that ratio you have to engage in bad exchanges including predatory ones.

It would be nice if everyone was nice in business but since there not it's good to have and hopefully learn from experiences that aren't terrible but include teachable moments.

I think EA has potential to be learned from but to also evolve over time. I really do doubt they will leave it as is.

Yeah that's definitely true and the reality of how things work. At the end of the day it's a business and I'm still choosing to play and support this game despite some misgivings I have about things.

As for EA, my personal time constraints will probably work against the FOMO factor because depending on how rewards work they probably won't even look accomplishable. I can accept that, I have with several aspects of the game and enjoy the areas I am able to or want to play. A save feature or something wouldn't be disappointing to me, though. Even if it came with penalties if it's own. Might make me more interested in investing the time I do have into the feature.

So the track record of this game is usually sales come first however if you're patient usually things come around to being closer to what you want because they also do player retention through qol changes.

So plan is probably to release archive as is no matter what we say because even in they wanted changes it would have to be further in the future roadmap to keep deadlines going.

Point being if everyone just waits they will add saves or something similar to archive down the road as qol and saying that you the player asked and they listened 😂.

It's not a great system by far but it keeps things from going completely off the rails.

RaptorRodeoGod · October 2023

maboleth wrote: »

Ability to save is not only for physical and mental health but for the longevity of Endless Arena as well.

As soon as novelty wears off, only diehards will play it close to 'endless'. Others will just clear few levels and go out.

There's got to be a better design to offer a save function than what we have now.

That's 100% what will happen of something isn't done. It would end up being a lot of wasted effort

Bushido2513 · October 2023

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Ability to save is not only for physical and mental health but for the longevity of Endless Arena as well.

As soon as novelty wears off, only diehards will play it close to 'endless'. Others will just clear few levels and go out.

There's got to be a better design to offer a save function than what we have now.

That's 100% what will happen of something isn't done. It would end up being a lot of wasted effort

See my previous comment. When interest has been gauged and died down then adjustments will be made to renew interest.

Interesting thing about most players is that they will come right back if you just make a change they wanted. So for ZOS a novelty then decline then resurgence model is still a win to keep the game interest moving at a reasonable pace. Just an observation, not saying I support the model, just that it's effective.

spartaxoxo · October 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This game has entertained me for many years but it never cares about my health, just doing its job to keep me entertained, engaged, and possibly paying for as long or as little as I can stand.

There are different degrees of addiction, and this game absolutely has health and safety features already that are pretty standard for the industry. The 50 daily quests cap means that when someone reaches that, they have no choice but to switch toons. This forces them to take stock of their situation. There are also cool downs on getting certain types of loot, so players who grind a lot will be the first to tell you that it's not worth doing anymore once you hit a certain point unless you swap toons.

Someone who is very severely addicted won't be impacted. But others who have milder addictions and who are more functional are absolutely helped by the more extreme circumstances having limits, and people who are playing normally are basically not impaired at all because they don't even run into them.

Bushido2513 · October 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This game has entertained me for many years but it never cares about my health, just doing its job to keep me entertained, engaged, and possibly paying for as long or as little as I can stand.

There are different degrees of addiction, and this game absolutely has health and safety features already that are pretty standard for the industry. The 50 daily quests cap means that when someone reaches that, they have no choice but to switch toons. This forces them to take stock of their situation. There are also cool downs on getting certain types of loot, so players who grind a lot will be the first to tell you that it's not worth doing anymore once you hit a certain point unless you swap toons.

Someone who is very severely addicted won't be impacted. But others who have milder addictions and who are more functional are absolutely helped by the more extreme circumstances having limits, and people who are playing normally are basically not impaired at all because they don't even run into them.

Lol those aren't health or safety features. This is hilarious.

Those are built by game designers to keep you coming back. There's a term, always leave them wanting more. What happens when you can't grind it all today, you come back tomorrow and the next day.

It's also so you don't do what most would, grind until they hate the content. No they want you to grind till the point where you feel worn out or bored and the cooldown intersect. That's the optimal outcome anyway.

It's the same reason games were careful about handing out God mode. They want you dialed in with a smile for as long as you will give them doing whatever of the 1000s of loops you choose.

ESO is more like visiting Vegas. You can travel to different casinos if you like but it's all designed to entertain and be in your pockets.

The only care this game has about you is making sure to not push you so far in any way that makes you stop playing permanently. And that's more about caring for your attention span and tolerances than it is your health.

spartaxoxo · October 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The only care this game has about you is making sure to not push you so far in any way that makes you stop playing permanently. And that's more about caring for your attention span and tolerances than it is your health.

It is both. They want you to come back when you're refreshed, not grind until you hate it. But, it also is a health and safety feature. Developers a long time ago figured out they could help their customers and make more money by putting those restrictions on things. That's called a win-win. And I don't see any reason not to celebrate win-wins. Things can be more than one thing.

Here's a good example of a developer speaking about this type of thing.
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtransaction-because-a-player-used-it-too-much/

Bushido2513 · October 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

The only care this game has about you is making sure to not push you so far in any way that makes you stop playing permanently. And that's more about caring for your attention span and tolerances than it is your health.

It is both. They want you to come back when you're refreshed, not grind until you hate it. But, it also is a health and safety feature. Developers a long time ago figured out they could help their customers and make more money by putting those restrictions on things. That's called a win-win. And I don't see any reason not to celebrate win-wins. Things can be more than one thing.

Here's a good example of a developer speaking about this type of thing.
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/03/warframe-removed-a-microtransaction-because-a-player-used-it-too-much/

So there is a big difference between these devs coming out and saying they did something vs ESO devs never straight up saying they care about player health or did anything tov help it.

I can't logically argue that breaks aren't helpful because they are of course. But saying things were put in to aid the player without any specific references is just making an assumption.

For example, when QOL changes are made they are added to patch notes and announced. I don't know of any statements by ZOS directly referring to player health concerns affecting the direction of the game.

Not saying they don't care or have never thought about this in their development but it has not been specifically stated as far as I know.

Also I'm pretty sure if you asked on stream they would say of course that's why we put that in. But to that I say show me your existence mission statements and guidelines that have been in place from the start. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have anything like that.

Freilauftomate · October 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Interesting thing about most players is that they will come right back if you just make a change they wanted. So for ZOS a novelty then decline then resurgence model is still a win to keep the game interest moving at a reasonable pace. Just an observation, not saying I support the model, just that it's effective.

For many years i had to watch friends and guildmates "came back" to ESO, just to see them walk away disappointed and angry after a few hours/days/weeks.

I always thought the responsible people in this company would eventually see what's going on, decide to finally fix their game and everyone would come back and be happy. But it never happened. Some things even got worse.

Now for a long time not one single player i know has come back. "We are working on it, but no eta" gave them hope for a while, but there is no trust left. No hope. They wanted to play a working ESO for years, but now they are done waiting. They won't come back. No matter what's going to happen. When we got the new servers on PS EU i told everyone how much better performance in Cyrodiil was, but nobody wanted to hear it. They were all playing other games, thought i was joking and just didn't care about ESO anymore. "If it works now, it's just a matter of time until they break it again. I am done with this company. Come and play game xy with me."

So no, i don't think this "model" is a win. From my point of view ESO is a tragedy. So much wasted potential, and so many customers who will never ever buy anything from this company again.

I am still playing sometimes. But 9 out of 10 times when i start the game, i close it the moment my buggy audio settings almost destroy my speakers with way too loud music, even though i disabled all music in my settings years ago...

This endless archive is a nice idea, but i am 99.9% convinced it will be buggy forever. That's just how this game works.

Freilauftomate · October 2023

And that's the reason why it can't be "bad for physical, mental, and familial health".

It will be buggy and break all the time. And who would want to waste their time playing something like that.

Bushido2513 · October 2023

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Interesting thing about most players is that they will come right back if you just make a change they wanted. So for ZOS a novelty then decline then resurgence model is still a win to keep the game interest moving at a reasonable pace. Just an observation, not saying I support the model, just that it's effective.

For many years i had to watch friends and guildmates "came back" to ESO, just to see them walk away disappointed and angry after a few hours/days/weeks.

I always thought the responsible people in this company would eventually see what's going on, decide to finally fix their game and everyone would come back and be happy. But it never happened. Some things even got worse.

Now for a long time not one single player i know has come back. "We are working on it, but no eta" gave them hope for a while, but there is no trust left. No hope. They wanted to play a working ESO for years, but now they are done waiting. They won't come back. No matter what's going to happen. When we got the new servers on PS EU i told everyone how much better performance in Cyrodiil was, but nobody wanted to hear it. They were all playing other games, thought i was joking and just didn't care about ESO anymore. "If it works now, it's just a matter of time until they break it again. I am done with this company. Come and play game xy with me."

So no, i don't think this "model" is a win. From my point of view ESO is a tragedy. So much wasted potential, and so many customers who will never ever buy anything from this company again.

I am still playing sometimes. But 9 out of 10 times when i start the game, i close it the moment my buggy audio settings almost destroy my speakers with way too loud music, even though i disabled all music in my settings years ago...

This endless archive is a nice idea, but i am 99.9% convinced it will be buggy forever. That's just how this game works.

Sorry you're correct I should have more so clarified that the players I was using as an example. It's very true that some just won't come back no matter what you say. Also when I say change things they like, that's a range because for some people you can just throw a set out there and they will come back and for some like me it would need to be better servers and actual consistent balance changes which don't seem to be coming anytime soon.

So yeah I am more so saying it's a win for zos because they manage to keep just enough existing players then pad the numbers with returning and new players. My only evidence to this is that they keep developing new content and it's not out of the goodness of their heart so their current model has to be making a net positive at the end of the day.

Though any of us knows that they could make so much more money if they would just invest in doing things right and that's a real shame.

I agree with your comment, the best thing they are doing for player health is making a game that isn't as good and therefore possibly addictive as it could be.

If Cyro actually worked all this time and PVE and PVP balance had been separated I'd probably be 25lbs heavier so thanks for that I guess lol

Howda · October 2023

Difficulty should increase only slightly and should go hand to hand with Boon's combos.

Adds should be warm up and minimal. If we fight only bosses will be amazing.

The selling point should be builds and boons combos so people can theory craft. Otherwise this is another low engagement content imo.

I hope I am wrong.

Save like VMA is a must. Please consider.

Rex-Umbra · October 2023

Time and resources that could of been spent revamping Cyrodiil to make it as exciting as it was at launch. ;'(

RicAlmighty · October 2023

I have to give Zos credit here. They listened and removed a stage from the Endless Archive, so it will now be three total stages including the boss.

This is a very good change and I appreciate it very much

Ragnarok0130 · October 2023

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

This really seems like a dangerous concept for addictive personalities. ZOS should be ashamed for catering to something so unhealthy.

A company should never balance a game around outliers like people with addictive personality disorders. They need to balance it for their customer base and let people deal with their own issues with a licensed professional.

Pr0Skygon · October 2023

I find it funny how so many people are taking the "endless" term so literally. It's basically a rouge like horde mode. The fun part is the randomized horde of adds for you to slaughter while also getting rewards, not spending countless hours upon hours just to get to the leaderboard.

And if you honestly think about putting countless hours into the game and risking your own health for an "endless" activity, then please stay away from Cyrodill.

BetweenMidgets · October 2023

They also made Endless Archive the such an oppressive setting. It is dark, bland, and 100% uninspired. Who wants to grind in such a setting for hours on end?

10 minutes was enough to show me it is a solid pass. I'm a bit bummed about missing out on the rewards, but considering my time feels less and less respected by the studio, I'm sure I can find a way to get over it.

MudcrabAttack · October 2023

Without a pause feature in the new arena the scoreboard still favors incredibly high DPS, or having no life commitments, or players with both at the same time. This is why very few will bother with score pushing, and if scoreboard pushing doesn’t matter to the player, there’s absolutely no need to stay for longer than one round since the sets are so bland

RaptorRodeoGod · October 2023

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Without a pause feature in the new arena the scoreboard still favors incredibly high DPS, or having no life commitments, or players with both at the same time. This is why very few will bother with score pushing, and if scoreboard pushing doesn’t matter to the player, there’s absolutely no need to stay for longer than one round since the sets are so bland

Yeah it still ends up being a time based score by the end of it, just instead of the fastest time, you go for the longest amount. Kinda wonky.

Dovahkiin02191973 · October 2023

As a person with addictive personality disorder I fully know what obsessive gaming can do. For me it sunk me into major credit card debt. Not this game but Forge of Empires an online multiplayer city builder type game. I was able to stop the pattern by quitting the game and cutting up my cards. I didn't need a therapist or medication to tell me that. I knew I was addicted as I played all day and could not do much of anything else. I lost interest in family and friends and some of them gave up on me. Can't blame it on the games themselves and not all games are addictive to all people. You must weed out the ones that are and eliminate them from your play time and your time should be no more than a couple of hours a day. I play ESO solo so there is no need for me to do the endless dungeon or whatever it is. Addiction to anything including gaming comes out from within the person. Some might be able to stop on their own like me but others it may be too strong to overcome and then intervention is needed to get it under control. When I think about FoE and how addicted I was to it is enough to keep me from ever going back.

IZZEFlameLash · October 2023

I feel that this is made for those that boast about how time rich they are. I was kind of looking forward to doing this but man, is this thing such a drag and I have no time to do this as is because life obligations. Yes, even on weekends.

dogmycats · October 2023

I hope that the progress can be saved when we decided to have a break, like other arenas.
Don't want to spend so much time at the Archive in one day.
And pls shorten the trash fight in each Arc.

RupzSkooma · January 1

I am not an alt user and neither I look forward to a card game in an MMO.So class and a skeleton of a card game is very much useless for me.
However I returned to this game because of a mod getting update in another game (which makes me want to play this game is parallel) and infinite archive.
I gotta say infinite archive core implementation is really really good. Just three things are lacking right now and they could easily fix.
* Checkpoint
* Biome Variety
* Better Reward (also improve class set)

RupzSkooma · January 1

Dovahkiin02191973 wrote: »

As a person with addictive personality disorder I fully know what obsessive gaming can do. For me it sunk me into major credit card debt. Not this game but Forge of Empires an online multiplayer city builder type game. I was able to stop the pattern by quitting the game and cutting up my cards. I didn't need a therapist or medication to tell me that. I knew I was addicted as I played all day and could not do much of anything else. I lost interest in family and friends and some of them gave up on me. Can't blame it on the games themselves and not all games are addictive to all people. You must weed out the ones that are and eliminate them from your play time and your time should be no more than a couple of hours a day. I play ESO solo so there is no need for me to do the endless dungeon or whatever it is. Addiction to anything including gaming comes out from within the person. Some might be able to stop on their own like me but others it may be too strong to overcome and then intervention is needed to get it under control. When I think about FoE and how addicted I was to it is enough to keep me from ever going back.

I don’t believe OP is talking about roguelike or roguelite being harmful rather no save point, otherwise it is the most bizarre take I have heard about gaming in a while. Games like hades and other games even in different genre with infinite replayability are harmful where as this game has gambling.

Also about gaming and mental health. I do have medicated OCD/anxiety disorder/sleep disorder but I just avoid games that are predatory. Gaming helped me rather in more ways than just improving mental health. TES III is what got me into modding and then programming/CS when I was about 10. I was mesmerised by it and how a whole world can fit in a box that I owned and wanted to learn more about the creative process. And then gaming/application development and now I earn 1.8X salary of median salary of SDE in US and that too from a developing country.

I do believe it how you consume the product.

StarOfElyon · January 24

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Basically the title. There's no scenario that gaming for 10+ hours straight is healthy, let alone doing the same thing in the game over those 10 hours. Endless Archive is going to get really old really quick.

And to go with that, it's a shame that the time you have to devote to the game is the limiting factor to Endless Archive, rather than actual skill level.

I haven't tried it yet but I'm not sure what the appeal is. If you can't win, what's the point?

XSTRONG · January 24

StarOfElyon wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Basically the title. There's no scenario that gaming for 10+ hours straight is healthy, let alone doing the same thing in the game over those 10 hours. Endless Archive is going to get really old really quick.

And to go with that, it's a shame that the time you have to devote to the game is the limiting factor to Endless Archive, rather than actual skill level.

I haven't tried it yet but I'm not sure what the appeal is. If you can't win, what's the point?

I think Infinite Archive is really fun and really happy that they will keep update it as I only heard from youtubers so far.

And yes you can win by either try to get further then your last run or compete for leaderboard or just for rewards.

What do you want to win?

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

I don't understand the appeal of grinding repetitive content with nothing new. Even the bosses in IA are repurposed from older portions of the game. There was nothing new in IA on the first day IA released. I don't get the appeal at all. There's already far too much grinding in ESO to get gear. There's not even any good gear in IA.