Endless Archive is bad for physical, mental, and familial health

FantasticFreddie

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's at least not more dangerous regarding addictive behaviour than any in-game event (time-gated rewards), trading or any other activity without inherent end. All of these things can be overdone and thus will be overdone by some individuals.

Yeah, it is. Because those other activities do not actively punish me if I stop. If I use the bathroom, I am not setback hours of play. For events, for example, let's say I need to stretch my legs and have already picked up 2/3 items from the delve daily. I will only need 1 more item. The progress isn't reset. So there's no real reason for me to prioritize getting that third item over taking that break.

Punishing people for taking a break encourages them to push themselves to play "just a little longer, " and for addicts that's a very dangerous impulse. Other activities in this game don't encourage that because you don't lose any progress for stopping, have limits on how much you can do (e.g. only 50 daily quests a day), or at least have a clear end point. While this game could be played without end, it's not incentivized to do so by rewarding the player for refusing to stop and punishing them for stopping. And thus even though unhealthy play isn't prevented entirely, it is subtly discouraged.

You're wrong, but I see that your opinion is already carved in stone and any further discussion is pointless.

So we'll have to agree to disagree, as I'll never accept a company parenting my behaviour. That's against the definition of myself as adult human being.

Do you feel "parented" by vMA saving your progress?

Braffin

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's at least not more dangerous regarding addictive behaviour than any in-game event (time-gated rewards), trading or any other activity without inherent end. All of these things can be overdone and thus will be overdone by some individuals.

Yeah, it is. Because those other activities do not actively punish me if I stop. If I use the bathroom, I am not setback hours of play. For events, for example, let's say I need to stretch my legs and have already picked up 2/3 items from the delve daily. I will only need 1 more item. The progress isn't reset. So there's no real reason for me to prioritize getting that third item over taking that break.

Punishing people for taking a break encourages them to push themselves to play "just a little longer, " and for addicts that's a very dangerous impulse. Other activities in this game don't encourage that because you don't lose any progress for stopping, have limits on how much you can do (e.g. only 50 daily quests a day), or at least have a clear end point. While this game could be played without end, it's not incentivized to do so by rewarding the player for refusing to stop and punishing them for stopping. And thus even though unhealthy play isn't prevented entirely, it is subtly discouraged.

You're wrong, but I see that your opinion is already carved in stone and any further discussion is pointless.

So we'll have to agree to disagree, as I'll never accept a company parenting my behaviour. That's against the definition of myself as adult human being.

Do you feel "parented" by vMA saving your progress?

Of course not.

I didn't argue against saving but against hiding reasonable demands behind an argumentation which is shifting responsibility from player to the company.

I also want to see saving and the ability to start at any already cleared arc, but I won't hide this demand behind "health" arguments.

Bushido2513

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's at least not more dangerous regarding addictive behaviour than any in-game event (time-gated rewards), trading or any other activity without inherent end. All of these things can be overdone and thus will be overdone by some individuals.

Yeah, it is. Because those other activities do not actively punish me if I stop. If I use the bathroom, I am not setback hours of play. For events, for example, let's say I need to stretch my legs and have already picked up 2/3 items from the delve daily. I will only need 1 more item. The progress isn't reset. So there's no real reason for me to prioritize getting that third item over taking that break.

Punishing people for taking a break encourages them to push themselves to play "just a little longer, " and for addicts that's a very dangerous impulse. Other activities in this game don't encourage that because you don't lose any progress for stopping, have limits on how much you can do (e.g. only 50 daily quests a day), or at least have a clear end point. While this game could be played without end, it's not incentivized to do so by rewarding the player for refusing to stop and punishing them for stopping. And thus even though unhealthy play isn't prevented entirely, it is subtly discouraged.

Only problem is that you're trying to differentiate an all you can eat buffet from an eating contest. Both can be dangerous it's just one gets you over time and the other just tells you that you're going to have to straight up take the hit to be a part of it.

Same effect, just variation in timeframe.

?????
No! No, a buffet is not the same as an eating contest. Christ on a bike this is a bad analogy.

A buffet: a wide variety of items, of which you can eat as much or as little as you chose of each, and leave whenever you want.

Any sort of eating contest: competative sport where you are literally eating 1 kind of food as fast as possible and trying not to puke.

I take my mother to a sunday brunch buffet for her birthday every year, we eat a small portion each of pur favorite thing, buy a single fancy drink, and enjoy a leisurely breakfast while looking out at the waterfall.

I would not take my mother to participate in an eating contest for her birthday.

What I'm saying is either can be done to excess, a buffet is just one where there is no prize for pushing yourself. Doing both repeatedly and to excess would lead to harm. With the buffet excess would just be going too many times vs the eating contest can one shot lead to choking, gastrointestinal damage, etc

Have you never heard the expression a fork can kill you just as easily as a bullet?

Also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_eating#Deaths

Again both have dangers related to abuse of food consumption , one just takes longer. Self harm over a duration is not better than immediate self harm, people just act like it is.


So to bring it back around, gamers are already making unhealthy choices in this game. I've seen people play to exhaustion, ignore friends and family, eat fast food because they don't take time to cook, skip exercise for this game and just smoke up instead.

EA has nothing on how unhealthy this game already is to people and I'm not even just free to talking about addictive personalities but even just people that really want a bit too much escapism.

Nobody is losing their minds because these players self harm at a slower more issues outwardly acceptable rate. But make no mistake, it's already an existing issue in this game by far.

Bushido2513

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

As a person who has played this game for years in both healthy and unhealthy ways I can say that with encouragement or not, this game can't really get me to do anything I don't choose to do. If someone is facing an issue where the game can make them do things they don't want then that's a completely different issue outside of this game.

I can tell you right now that they could put 500 million gold 30 hours into the archive and I wouldn't even care to attempt it because my time and life just aren't worth the exchange. If someone else doesn't see it that way I feel I'd have to respect that as their choice.

Maybe you and I are (nowadays) able to control our gaming activities, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who can't. And if there really was an incentive like the fictive example you gave, I'm absolutely sure that people - especially younger, inexperienced people - would do it and not think about their lives for a minute. Simply because they do not have the mental maturity and foresight.

But I think that's the point of growing up and experiencing good and bad things. Someone might take it too far for sure but I also remember we when I played maelstrom arena for a full weekend to get my first clear and how it's a memory that nobody can take from me. Was it unhealthy to do so, probably, but I still like having the story to tell and then I moved on to other things.

If we try to make everything safer then we also run the risk of not letting players gain certain experiences including deciding to make their own decisions about such things. The maturity and foresight is gained though good and bad learning experiences.

Trying to protect someone in this one instance of life is a bandaid at the cost of artistic vision and player choice if they have issues that make susceptible to addictive situations like these.

Also as I've already said a few times, this game currently more than encourages over indulging. There are no warnings about playtime while having several mechanisms to keep you engaged for as long as possible.

Maelstrom Arena literally lets you save your progress. You CAN choose to keep doing it, but you're not forced to begin the arena all over again. All it would take is the same exact design that Maelstrom has to encourage people to take breaks. That's it. If they don't take advantage of it from there, that's on them. Some will be because they have a serious problem, others will be in your situation. Regardless, they will no longer be punished for tackling Endless in a healthy manner with breaks. Nobody should be sitting in place for 12 hours straight. It is literally dangerous.

edit
Even in your eating contest example, they aren't held every day at the same place. Nobody is encouraged to do it without stop. Those events are actually pretty brief and have a clear end point.

I mean that's the issue though that still someone is letting a game push them to self harm. If that's the issue then ultimately they will find an outlet in this game or the next and really just need to get help rather than a bandaid from ZOS or any other gaming company.

The point of the eating contest is that you can be harmed while chasing that goal. I watched a documentary once and long story short it's no picnic on your body at all. It's not for me but who has the right to judge anyone's legal ability to make a choice or those that present a choice?

There are many times in my own life where I had to learn lessons and also lost lessons due to interference. It's a tricky road but rewarding as well.

Bushido2513

Braffin wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

It's at least not more dangerous regarding addictive behaviour than any in-game event (time-gated rewards), trading or any other activity without inherent end. All of these things can be overdone and thus will be overdone by some individuals.

Yeah, it is. Because those other activities do not actively punish me if I stop. If I use the bathroom, I am not setback hours of play. For events, for example, let's say I need to stretch my legs and have already picked up 2/3 items from the delve daily. I will only need 1 more item. The progress isn't reset. So there's no real reason for me to prioritize getting that third item over taking that break.

Punishing people for taking a break encourages them to push themselves to play "just a little longer, " and for addicts that's a very dangerous impulse. Other activities in this game don't encourage that because you don't lose any progress for stopping, have limits on how much you can do (e.g. only 50 daily quests a day), or at least have a clear end point. While this game could be played without end, it's not incentivized to do so by rewarding the player for refusing to stop and punishing them for stopping. And thus even though unhealthy play isn't prevented entirely, it is subtly discouraged.

You're wrong, but I see that your opinion is already carved in stone and any further discussion is pointless.

So we'll have to agree to disagree, as I'll never accept a company parenting my behaviour. That's against the definition of myself as adult human being.

Do you feel "parented" by vMA saving your progress?

Of course not.

I didn't argue against saving but against hiding reasonable demands behind an argumentation which is shifting responsibility from player to the company.

I also want to see saving and the ability to start at any already cleared arc, but I won't hide this demand behind "health" arguments.

Exactly, the health argument in an already unhealthy setting is a bit off to me.

If anyone is currently healthy and playing this game I assure you it's due to their own choices and not because this game encourages it

Delta was an interesting example when he quit the game to go be a bit healthier. I say good example because while there are fit gamers on ESO, he started out being almost overly active in ESO and not all that he's healthy then flipped the two.

Again this was just the game by itself which is why I say ea won't tip the scales of unhealthy behavior in this game

Lugaldu

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

RaptorRodeoGod

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

Yeah that was more of the mindset I was thinking from for the most part when I made this, basically the game encouraging unhealthy habits, which kind of feels like "we don't care about our players overall well being"

It's not the only reason to adjust Endless Archive, but it is one that is worth something at least.

And it's not that it shouldn't feel fun enough to play on end of your own decision, it's just that it shouldn't FORCE you into playing for hours to get to the good parts. "Force" as in taking away your progression/achievement through your run if you willingly make the decision to take a break/continue another day.

People are saying you can take breaks by having another player hop in for a bit, but that doesn't help me if I want to go through Arc 1 today and Arc 2 tomorrow, etc.

Braffin

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

Safety warnings would be a reasonable addition. Hell, with modern technologic possibilities they could even use an algorythm to give personal warnings to people which overdo it and regularily exeed certain time limits.

Important imo is, that all these systems stay optional and the final decision is for the individual player to make. Because if you force even the slightest behavioural change onto players, the entertainment industry would clearly overstep it's borders. That's something not for a company to decide but a matter of law (preferably in a democratic manner, except we want to repeat the error US did with prohibition, including all the unwanted consequences).

Additionally there is a spin around this forums to argue against content decisions based on underhung "health" concerns, which is in the end harmful to the game and the playerbase. We saw that with oakensoul, arcanist and now EA. Time to stop that nonsense.

BenTSG

While I have not tried this on the PTS, from what I am hearing, the scoreboard isn't all that great for the way the EA is handled right now. Why not just make it like a Tower style or something. Every, what, week or so, the leaderboard restarts, and it keeps track to the furthest point you get to within some restraints. Either to the highest point you get to when the board resets, to the point you lose all of your lives, or to the point you decide to end the run yourself (as opposed to simply leaving it alone), whichever happens first.

I'm not too sure how the rewards all work yet, but from the sounds of it you'd still get your normal drops through the rounds. If you don't care for the leaderboards, you can end the run whenever you wanted to get the end of run rewards, or if you wanted to stop and carry the run on later, you'd have the week to go for as long as you wanted to either get a bigger payout, or to score push on the leaderboard.

spartaxoxo

Bushido2513 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

As a person who has played this game for years in both healthy and unhealthy ways I can say that with encouragement or not, this game can't really get me to do anything I don't choose to do. If someone is facing an issue where the game can make them do things they don't want then that's a completely different issue outside of this game.

I can tell you right now that they could put 500 million gold 30 hours into the archive and I wouldn't even care to attempt it because my time and life just aren't worth the exchange. If someone else doesn't see it that way I feel I'd have to respect that as their choice.

Maybe you and I are (nowadays) able to control our gaming activities, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who can't. And if there really was an incentive like the fictive example you gave, I'm absolutely sure that people - especially younger, inexperienced people - would do it and not think about their lives for a minute. Simply because they do not have the mental maturity and foresight.

But I think that's the point of growing up and experiencing good and bad things. Someone might take it too far for sure but I also remember we when I played maelstrom arena for a full weekend to get my first clear and how it's a memory that nobody can take from me. Was it unhealthy to do so, probably, but I still like having the story to tell and then I moved on to other things.

If we try to make everything safer then we also run the risk of not letting players gain certain experiences including deciding to make their own decisions about such things. The maturity and foresight is gained though good and bad learning experiences.

Trying to protect someone in this one instance of life is a bandaid at the cost of artistic vision and player choice if they have issues that make susceptible to addictive situations like these.

Also as I've already said a few times, this game currently more than encourages over indulging. There are no warnings about playtime while having several mechanisms to keep you engaged for as long as possible.

Maelstrom Arena literally lets you save your progress. You CAN choose to keep doing it, but you're not forced to begin the arena all over again. All it would take is the same exact design that Maelstrom has to encourage people to take breaks. That's it. If they don't take advantage of it from there, that's on them. Some will be because they have a serious problem, others will be in your situation. Regardless, they will no longer be punished for tackling Endless in a healthy manner with breaks. Nobody should be sitting in place for 12 hours straight. It is literally dangerous.

edit
Even in your eating contest example, they aren't held every day at the same place. Nobody is encouraged to do it without stop. Those events are actually pretty brief and have a clear end point.

I mean that's the issue though that still someone is letting a game push them to self harm. If that's the issue then ultimately they will find an outlet in this game or the next and really just need to get help rather than a bandaid from ZOS or any other gaming company.

The point of the eating contest is that you can be harmed while chasing that goal. I watched a documentary once and long story short it's no picnic on your body at all. It's not for me but who has the right to judge anyone's legal ability to make a choice or those that present a choice?

There are many times in my own life where I had to learn lessons and also lost lessons due to interference. It's a tricky road but rewarding as well.

It's literally a normal part of society and we still all manage to make choices. The dailies are capped in this game at 50, and yet that doesn't cause an uproar and people manage to farm to their hearts content during the anniversary. This idea that if company decides to make very minor changes for the most vulnerable population, healthy adults won't have freedom just isn't borne about the game's current design. Because there are, in fact, already in place these types of features. And most healthy adults don't even notice them.

A save feature gives increased choice, increased player freedom, and protects people who are vulnerable but not beyond help. I don't see how pointing out all the benefits makes a normal feature somehow a problem.

The save feature hasn't stopped anyone from binging Maelstrom until they beat it. What choice from an adult is taken away by a save?

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

As a person who has played this game for years in both healthy and unhealthy ways I can say that with encouragement or not, this game can't really get me to do anything I don't choose to do. If someone is facing an issue where the game can make them do things they don't want then that's a completely different issue outside of this game.

I can tell you right now that they could put 500 million gold 30 hours into the archive and I wouldn't even care to attempt it because my time and life just aren't worth the exchange. If someone else doesn't see it that way I feel I'd have to respect that as their choice.

Maybe you and I are (nowadays) able to control our gaming activities, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who can't. And if there really was an incentive like the fictive example you gave, I'm absolutely sure that people - especially younger, inexperienced people - would do it and not think about their lives for a minute. Simply because they do not have the mental maturity and foresight.

But I think that's the point of growing up and experiencing good and bad things. Someone might take it too far for sure but I also remember we when I played maelstrom arena for a full weekend to get my first clear and how it's a memory that nobody can take from me. Was it unhealthy to do so, probably, but I still like having the story to tell and then I moved on to other things.

If we try to make everything safer then we also run the risk of not letting players gain certain experiences including deciding to make their own decisions about such things. The maturity and foresight is gained though good and bad learning experiences.

Trying to protect someone in this one instance of life is a bandaid at the cost of artistic vision and player choice if they have issues that make susceptible to addictive situations like these.

Also as I've already said a few times, this game currently more than encourages over indulging. There are no warnings about playtime while having several mechanisms to keep you engaged for as long as possible.

Maelstrom Arena literally lets you save your progress. You CAN choose to keep doing it, but you're not forced to begin the arena all over again. All it would take is the same exact design that Maelstrom has to encourage people to take breaks. That's it. If they don't take advantage of it from there, that's on them. Some will be because they have a serious problem, others will be in your situation. Regardless, they will no longer be punished for tackling Endless in a healthy manner with breaks. Nobody should be sitting in place for 12 hours straight. It is literally dangerous.

edit
Even in your eating contest example, they aren't held every day at the same place. Nobody is encouraged to do it without stop. Those events are actually pretty brief and have a clear end point.

I mean that's the issue though that still someone is letting a game push them to self harm. If that's the issue then ultimately they will find an outlet in this game or the next and really just need to get help rather than a bandaid from ZOS or any other gaming company.

The point of the eating contest is that you can be harmed while chasing that goal. I watched a documentary once and long story short it's no picnic on your body at all. It's not for me but who has the right to judge anyone's legal ability to make a choice or those that present a choice?

There are many times in my own life where I had to learn lessons and also lost lessons due to interference. It's a tricky road but rewarding as well.

It's literally a normal part of society and we still all manage to make choices. The dailies are capped in this game at 50, and yet that doesn't cause an uproar and people manage to farm to their hearts content during the anniversary. This idea that if company decides to make very minor changes for the most vulnerable population, healthy adults won't have freedom just isn't borne about the game's current design. Because there are, in fact, already in place these types of features. And most healthy adults don't even notice them.

A save feature gives increased choice, increased player freedom, and protects people who are vulnerable but not beyond help. I don't see how pointing out all the benefits makes a normal feature somehow a problem.

The save feature hasn't stopped anyone from binging Maelstrom until they beat it. What choice from an adult is taken away by a save?

First of all it's a limit of 50 quests per character. That's 400 quests per day without additional expenses and 1000 if you're dedicated enough to maintain 20 toons. I don't believe anyone is able to complete that amount before the limit resets. A flawed argument.

I agree with a save feature giving increased choice and increases a player's freedom, but I don't see how the ability to save will protect anyone. You would be excluded from leaderboard (as in vma) for standardization purposes. So addicted (or entitled) players would still no-life it. As they already do now, if they try to become emporer on a busy campaign.

To prevent people from doing so efficiently you would either have to remove leaderboards completely from EA or don't make it endless (then you could have leaderboards like in vma etc. -> less time = better score). Both isn't necessary.

DinoZavr

What really baffles me is the Zenimax approach to make players to stay in game longer.
Basically longer than them players can afford.

As a big and mature company Zeni should have “player models” which they prefer not to publish, but all the statistics is collected and could/should be processed to rectify several models like:
a) casual player – logs on does endeavors, crafting dailies, surveys and treasure maps, maybe runs several dungeons with friends, decorates house, logs off
b) family players: duo group dungeons, do achievements, log off after for example 3 hours
c) PVP’ers: mostly do Cyrodiil and Imperial City, maybe run trials with guildmates for 4 hours
d) progression endgamers: devote all theirs time to run newest trial for that number of hours..
etc etc etc.. it is primitive, but processing the game statistics should indicate how much time different players spend playing.

The latest trends are alarming for me: newer Antiquities are mostly multipart (not just Mythics with 5 leads each), but furnishings and cosmetics: music box – 10 leads, body marks – 7 leads, face marks – 7 leads, alchemy station – 10 leads… some leads are behind treasure maps with abysmal drop chances.

Endless Archive with no progress save suggests what? Playing non-stop for 8+ hours a day? And who can afford that? Of course, ESO streamers can do that, but streaming is theirs full-time job. I can not imagine working guys to stay in game for many hours after they return from theirs daily job. People has to eat, sleep and take a shower, well.. at least during maintenance windows

How these innovations correspond with typical player models? Are they realistic? Has Zeni analyzed players typical behavior, goals and interests for different kinds of players? Overdoing might lead to lost interest if players goals become unreachable. Or keeping players happy is no longer a priority?

Bushido2513

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Bushido2513

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

Yeah that was more of the mindset I was thinking from for the most part when I made this, basically the game encouraging unhealthy habits, which kind of feels like "we don't care about our players overall well being"

It's not the only reason to adjust Endless Archive, but it is one that is worth something at least.

And it's not that it shouldn't feel fun enough to play on end of your own decision, it's just that it shouldn't FORCE you into playing for hours to get to the good parts. "Force" as in taking away your progression/achievement through your run if you willingly make the decision to take a break/continue another day.

People are saying you can take breaks by having another player hop in for a bit, but that doesn't help me if I want to go through Arc 1 today and Arc 2 tomorrow, etc.

See my previous list. So you're ok with someone burning days and time on all the other things I mentioned that already exist just because they could have made the choice? Also note people will probably do ea and eventually just move on.

The things I listed currently already go in daily and are worse for health just at a slower less upfront pace but that's ok vs ea just being upfront about it and likely something people might power through for a bit and just get bored of?


I feel like people are just saying hey game it's ok that your other practices wholly promote a possibly unhealthy lifestyle but don't you try to come out and just straight up out it in our face 😂

Bushido2513

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

As a person who has played this game for years in both healthy and unhealthy ways I can say that with encouragement or not, this game can't really get me to do anything I don't choose to do. If someone is facing an issue where the game can make them do things they don't want then that's a completely different issue outside of this game.

I can tell you right now that they could put 500 million gold 30 hours into the archive and I wouldn't even care to attempt it because my time and life just aren't worth the exchange. If someone else doesn't see it that way I feel I'd have to respect that as their choice.

Maybe you and I are (nowadays) able to control our gaming activities, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who can't. And if there really was an incentive like the fictive example you gave, I'm absolutely sure that people - especially younger, inexperienced people - would do it and not think about their lives for a minute. Simply because they do not have the mental maturity and foresight.

But I think that's the point of growing up and experiencing good and bad things. Someone might take it too far for sure but I also remember we when I played maelstrom arena for a full weekend to get my first clear and how it's a memory that nobody can take from me. Was it unhealthy to do so, probably, but I still like having the story to tell and then I moved on to other things.

If we try to make everything safer then we also run the risk of not letting players gain certain experiences including deciding to make their own decisions about such things. The maturity and foresight is gained though good and bad learning experiences.

Trying to protect someone in this one instance of life is a bandaid at the cost of artistic vision and player choice if they have issues that make susceptible to addictive situations like these.

Also as I've already said a few times, this game currently more than encourages over indulging. There are no warnings about playtime while having several mechanisms to keep you engaged for as long as possible.

Maelstrom Arena literally lets you save your progress. You CAN choose to keep doing it, but you're not forced to begin the arena all over again. All it would take is the same exact design that Maelstrom has to encourage people to take breaks. That's it. If they don't take advantage of it from there, that's on them. Some will be because they have a serious problem, others will be in your situation. Regardless, they will no longer be punished for tackling Endless in a healthy manner with breaks. Nobody should be sitting in place for 12 hours straight. It is literally dangerous.

edit
Even in your eating contest example, they aren't held every day at the same place. Nobody is encouraged to do it without stop. Those events are actually pretty brief and have a clear end point.

I mean that's the issue though that still someone is letting a game push them to self harm. If that's the issue then ultimately they will find an outlet in this game or the next and really just need to get help rather than a bandaid from ZOS or any other gaming company.

The point of the eating contest is that you can be harmed while chasing that goal. I watched a documentary once and long story short it's no picnic on your body at all. It's not for me but who has the right to judge anyone's legal ability to make a choice or those that present a choice?

There are many times in my own life where I had to learn lessons and also lost lessons due to interference. It's a tricky road but rewarding as well.

It's literally a normal part of society and we still all manage to make choices. The dailies are capped in this game at 50, and yet that doesn't cause an uproar and people manage to farm to their hearts content during the anniversary. This idea that if company decides to make very minor changes for the most vulnerable population, healthy adults won't have freedom just isn't borne about the game's current design. Because there are, in fact, already in place these types of features. And most healthy adults don't even notice them.

A save feature gives increased choice, increased player freedom, and protects people who are vulnerable but not beyond help. I don't see how pointing out all the benefits makes a normal feature somehow a problem.

The save feature hasn't stopped anyone from binging Maelstrom until they beat it. What choice from an adult is taken away by a save?

I do support adding convenience features like a save point however I also support the artist / developer having a vision for the player so I can see both sides of that with no issue.

I don't really see talking about this in a health aspect because this game already supports a very unhealthy balance if you are just that kind of person. I've listed out real actual in game accounts of this.

So when people talk about the health factor I'm like umm are we playing the same game because this game has pretty much no care about player health if the player has unhealthy tendencies.

For that you'd need playtime caps that make you take a break and to offer more ways around grinds or things you can buy, etc.

No this game is here to keep you happy, engaged, and paying money. And if you're not paying money they want you playing as much as possible and as long as possible to make numbers and population look good which helps get money from those that will pay.

This game has entertained me for many years but it never cares about my health, just doing its job to keep me entertained, engaged, and possibly paying for as long or as little as I can stand.

Lugaldu

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Bushido2513

DinoZavr wrote: »

What really baffles me is the Zenimax approach to make players to stay in game longer.
Basically longer than them players can afford.

As a big and mature company Zeni should have “player models” which they prefer not to publish, but all the statistics is collected and could/should be processed to rectify several models like:
a) casual player – logs on does endeavors, crafting dailies, surveys and treasure maps, maybe runs several dungeons with friends, decorates house, logs off
b) family players: duo group dungeons, do achievements, log off after for example 3 hours
c) PVP’ers: mostly do Cyrodiil and Imperial City, maybe run trials with guildmates for 4 hours
d) progression endgamers: devote all theirs time to run newest trial for that number of hours..
etc etc etc.. it is primitive, but processing the game statistics should indicate how much time different players spend playing.

The latest trends are alarming for me: newer Antiquities are mostly multipart (not just Mythics with 5 leads each), but furnishings and cosmetics: music box – 10 leads, body marks – 7 leads, face marks – 7 leads, alchemy station – 10 leads… some leads are behind treasure maps with abysmal drop chances.

Endless Archive with no progress save suggests what? Playing non-stop for 8+ hours a day? And who can afford that? Of course, ESO streamers can do that, but streaming is theirs full-time job. I can not imagine working guys to stay in game for many hours after they return from theirs daily job. People has to eat, sleep and take a shower, well.. at least during maintenance windows

How these innovations correspond with typical player models? Are they realistic? Has Zeni analyzed players typical behavior, goals and interests for different kinds of players? Overdoing might lead to lost interest if players goals become unreachable. Or keeping players happy is no longer a priority?

Simply put zeni has set out to make money. I'm guessing they gear their math to ways that generate more money.

For you as the player, you're either enjoying the ride and it's all good or you're starting to analyze things and maybe you're thinking about getting off the ride.

I'm pretty sure it's just that simple as an entertainment model. Either this entertainment is for you and pay us or it isn't and safe travels friend.

Bushido2513

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Yeah but you just listed very unhealthy behavior as a lifestyle so how is that better?

Just tell me is it really overall better that I just ate all that sodium, fat, and carbs then sat back down for hours and that I'm doing that daily?

See I'll probably get bored/ get any gear I want and move on from archive a bit worn out.

I'm describing to you daily activities leading people to possibly put health on the back burner.

So it's not ok if I have a stroke during ea but it's ok if the pizza and sitting get me in the long run where a corner will just label it natural causes due to lifestyle?

Seems like the long term effects are worse just more subtle no?

DinoZavr

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Simply put zeni has set out to make money. I'm guessing they gear their math to ways that generate more money.

For you as the player, you're either enjoying the ride and it's all good or you're starting to analyze things and maybe you're thinking about getting off the ride.

I'm pretty sure it's just that simple as an entertainment model. Either this entertainment is for you and pay us or it isn't and safe travels friend.

And this also baffles me. When we talk about moar moneys - there is the ROI = Return of Investment.
Why to spend a plenty of paid manhours into implementing something tailored for a humble fraction of players?
A dungeon requiring many continuous hours to spend with .. well.. rather nondescript rewards which might not worth that players' hours.
My approach is that even the challenging content supported by shiny rewards might still appear inappropriate, as not much of player are able to actually spend 6 .. 8 .. 10 hours in row. There is a real life somewhere outside Nirn, after all. How unaffordable, and thus, unpopular for many players feature increases game-makers profits? Still baffling for me.

AzuraFan

I don't think it's up to ZOS to ensure that features aren't going to promote unhealthy activity. I agree that sitting for hours on end isn't healthy, but it's a choice. Each player can decide what's more important to them: their health, or getting digital goodies and/or a good spot on the leaderboard.

(as an aside, back when I played another MMO, one of the players in a guild I belonged to was always on. Pleasant fellow. Sometimes we were the only two logging in early Sunday mornings and we'd chat. He was middle-aged.

Suddenly he wasn't logging in anymore, which was unusual. Turns out he had a pulmonary embolism that killed him. That's a blood clot that travels to the lungs. According to a friend of his, the doctors thought he'd developed it from all that sitting for hours on end. And for what? Digital goodies that will be worthless when the servers shut down? Taught me a lesson, that's for sure. I think of him whenever I've been sitting in front of a game for too long. I go and do something else.)

Bushido2513

DinoZavr wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Simply put zeni has set out to make money. I'm guessing they gear their math to ways that generate more money.

For you as the player, you're either enjoying the ride and it's all good or you're starting to analyze things and maybe you're thinking about getting off the ride.

I'm pretty sure it's just that simple as an entertainment model. Either this entertainment is for you and pay us or it isn't and safe travels friend.

And this also baffles me. When we talk about moar moneys - there is the ROI = Return of Investment.
Why to spend a plenty of paid manhours into implementing something tailored for a humble fraction of players?
A dungeon requiring many continuous hours to spend with .. well.. rather nondescript rewards which might not worth that players' hours.
My approach is that even the challenging content supported by shiny rewards might still appear inappropriate, as not much of player are able to actually spend 6 .. 8 .. 10 hours in row. There is a real life somewhere outside Nirn, after all. How unaffordable, and thus, unpopular for many players feature increases game-makers profits? Still baffling for me.

Sometimes the attraction on the menu is saying look at how many XYZ items we have and not the quality of said items.

In this case they can now and forever say hey if you happen to want a single or two player endless dungeon, guess what we got that too! Lol

It's actually part of the particular approach when you're going for more is better because then it's harder for people to focus in and really say there just isn't "something" for me. It's not perfect but effective

Bushido2513

AzuraFan wrote: »

I don't think it's up to ZOS to ensure that features aren't going to promote unhealthy activity. I agree that sitting for hours on end isn't healthy, but it's a choice. Each player can decide what's more important to them: their health, or getting digital goodies and/or a good spot on the leaderboard.

(as an aside, back when I played another MMO, one of the players in a guild I belonged to was always on. Pleasant fellow. Sometimes we were the only two logging in early Sunday mornings and we'd chat. He was middle-aged.

Suddenly he wasn't logging in anymore, which was unusual. Turns out he had a pulmonary embolism that killed him. That's a blood clot that travels to the lungs. According to a friend of his, the doctors thought he'd developed it from all that sitting for hours on end. And for what? Digital goodies that will be worthless when the servers shut down? Taught me a lesson, that's for sure. I think of him whenever I've been sitting in front of a game for too long. I go and do something else.)

Unfortunately this happens more often than we know already which is why I'm over here saying don't worry about ea, it's not any worse than the game already is in regards to health concerns.

If a certificate of overall health from year one to year two of all players was done you'd see the numbers show that this game doesn't really revolve around largely increased health profiles.

Syldras

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Yeah but you just listed very unhealthy behavior as a lifestyle so how is that better?

Just tell me is it really overall better that I just ate all that sodium, fat, and carbs then sat back down for hours and that I'm doing that daily?

See I'll probably get bored/ get any gear I want and move on from archive a bit worn out.

I'm describing to you daily activities leading people to possibly put health on the back burner.

So it's not ok if I have a stroke during ea but it's ok if the pizza and sitting get me in the long run where a corner will just label it natural causes due to lifestyle?

Seems like the long term effects are worse just more subtle no?

Then imagine he didn't say "pizza" but "a healthy bowl of freshly cut salad from an organic, local and fair trade farm". Better?

Seriously, you can't have missed the point that it wasn't about eating some type of food daily, it was about being able to take a break from the game for a short time to do something else (eating, going for a walk, showering, doings sports, whatever) without being punished by the game mechanics for that.

RaptorRodeoGod

Bushido2513 wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

Yeah that was more of the mindset I was thinking from for the most part when I made this, basically the game encouraging unhealthy habits, which kind of feels like "we don't care about our players overall well being"

It's not the only reason to adjust Endless Archive, but it is one that is worth something at least.

And it's not that it shouldn't feel fun enough to play on end of your own decision, it's just that it shouldn't FORCE you into playing for hours to get to the good parts. "Force" as in taking away your progression/achievement through your run if you willingly make the decision to take a break/continue another day.

People are saying you can take breaks by having another player hop in for a bit, but that doesn't help me if I want to go through Arc 1 today and Arc 2 tomorrow, etc.

See my previous list. So you're ok with someone burning days and time on all the other things I mentioned that already exist just because they could have made the choice? Also note people will probably do ea and eventually just move on.

The things I listed currently already go in daily and are worse for health just at a slower less upfront pace but that's ok vs ea just being upfront about it and likely something people might power through for a bit and just get bored of?


I feel like people are just saying hey game it's ok that your other practices wholly promote a possibly unhealthy lifestyle but don't you try to come out and just straight up out it in our face 😂

Everything noted in your list I could take a break on, perform the exact same thing the next day, the same difficulty, the same experience, the same rewards, and that will all be there the next day, and the next day, and the next day. Endless Archive is not set up that way. It leans much farther into the FOMO that people can get.

For example: It's not like not doing my crafting writs one day will take away all of my previously earned crafting writ accomplishments; my crafting skill doesn't reset to zero. If I don't do my crafting today, I can tomorrow, and I take solace in that. I can't do Arc 3 today and Arc 4 tomorrow, because my progress will reset.

Additionally, the reason I'm focusing on Endless Archive in this post is because it's the newest content being released, and it's still undergoing changes, so there's a better chance for a good change. That's not saying there are other aspects of the game that can't be improved, but if you went through them all in one thread, it would be endless, like the FOMO from Endless Archive 😂

Also, other good games have reminders to take breaks, such as much of the Monster Hunter series. It may be up to the player to decide to ignore it or not, but the reminder being there shows that the developers realize it's generally a good thing to take a break every once in a while. I'm not saying ESO needs or doesn't need a break reminder, but I don't think content should be designed in a way to PUNISH you from taking a break, however long you as a person feel it needs to be.

Bushido2513

Syldras wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Yeah but you just listed very unhealthy behavior as a lifestyle so how is that better?

Just tell me is it really overall better that I just ate all that sodium, fat, and carbs then sat back down for hours and that I'm doing that daily?

See I'll probably get bored/ get any gear I want and move on from archive a bit worn out.

I'm describing to you daily activities leading people to possibly put health on the back burner.

So it's not ok if I have a stroke during ea but it's ok if the pizza and sitting get me in the long run where a corner will just label it natural causes due to lifestyle?

Seems like the long term effects are worse just more subtle no?

Then imagine he didn't say "pizza" but "a healthy bowl of freshly cut salad from an organic, local and fair trade farm". Better?

Seriously, you can't have missed the point that it wasn't about eating some type of food daily, it was about being able to take a break from the game for a short time to do something else (eating, going for a walk, showering, doings sports, whatever) without being punished by the game mechanics for that.

Problem is that the people we're talking about don't care if you offer them a break. You're talking about a rational thinking person like me who wouldn't even bother with archive for an extended amount of time for the health sacrifice.

An addictive personality would just see the break you're describing as not even a thing to consider and keep going.


Slot machines are totally voluntary and you can get up at any time but an addict won't and that's the person we're talking about in these scenarios who I'm saying won't differentiate in what they do break or no break. To them the only punishment is loss of dopamine one way or the other so they will chase it with or without breaks involved.

RaptorRodeoGod

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

I think that this whole "health" discussion is not about the ESO or whatever PC game being supposed to have a positive influence on a "healthy" lifestyle, and of course it is clear that there are enough things in the world we do that are unhealthy. And the higher the dosage of something, the less healthy it is. The point here is, in my opinion, that the design of the EA in its current form, without the possibility of security saves, PROMOTES and REWARDS unhealthy habits. The developers have a responsibility here and cannot completely pass it on to the user and say “it’s your decision”.
Alcohol and cigarettes have warning labels on them and perhaps it is time for certain game content to also be labeled as being addictive. And that has nothing to do with “parenting behavior” but with a safety warning.

This whole game should have a safety warning.

Why is ea different from the endless streams of things you can do in this entire game for rewards that you can just string together if you are just the type to push it.

Example of a whole day gone in a spree of time where I only stop to use the bathroom and put food in my face

Starting from morning

Writs on 18 characters
Queue battleground or dungeon I want to farm
Do surveys while in q
Go to IC while in q
Go craft while in q
Go to the crown store while in q
Work on house layout while in q
Farm bosses for gear while in q
Farm chest while in q
Get master angler while in q

And the list goes onnnnnn


So if I'm just the type to want to maximize those tasks which all come with rewards or have an addictive personality guess what, I'm pretty much already doing my own version of ea.

You can say I have a choice but I'm chasing xp/ap/telvar/gear drop dopamine hits at that point just like I would in ea.

So now the day or days in a row are already shot in terms of health.

For a person with issues the game is one giant choose your own ea

Sure, there is more than enough incentive to be active 24/7 in this game and other PC games. But we're going around in circles with the argument in this thread, because the big difference is that you don't have a disadvantage if you quickly go to the corner and get a pizza while you're doing crafting with 18 chars, but that's exactly what happens at EA - if you are out for more than 5 minutes, for whatever reason, all progress is lost.

Yeah but you just listed very unhealthy behavior as a lifestyle so how is that better?

Just tell me is it really overall better that I just ate all that sodium, fat, and carbs then sat back down for hours and that I'm doing that daily?

See I'll probably get bored/ get any gear I want and move on from archive a bit worn out.

I'm describing to you daily activities leading people to possibly put health on the back burner.

So it's not ok if I have a stroke during ea but it's ok if the pizza and sitting get me in the long run where a corner will just label it natural causes due to lifestyle?

Seems like the long term effects are worse just more subtle no?

Then imagine he didn't say "pizza" but "a healthy bowl of freshly cut salad from an organic, local and fair trade farm". Better?

Seriously, you can't have missed the point that it wasn't about eating some type of food daily, it was about being able to take a break from the game for a short time to do something else (eating, going for a walk, showering, doings sports, whatever) without being punished by the game mechanics for that.

Problem is that the people we're talking about don't care if you offer them a break. You're talking about a rational thinking person like me who wouldn't even bother with archive for an extended amount of time for the health sacrifice.

An addictive personality would just see the break you're describing as not even a thing to consider and keep going.


Slot machines are totally voluntary and you can get up at any time but an addict won't and that's the person we're talking about in these scenarios who I'm saying won't differentiate in what they do break or no break. To them the only punishment is loss of dopamine one way or the other so they will chase it with or without breaks involved.

Actually, I've been talking broadly for the most part, not just focusing on addicts. Broadly, designing a way to take an extended break from Endless Archive without punishing the player would be good for most people. I'm sure most people would appreciate not having to sacrifice other hobbies, family time, sleep, time touching grass, etc to get the experience they want, at the difficulty they want, from Endless Archive.

Addicts are going to play they game they way they want to play, regardless of how the content is designed, and regardless of their other responsibilities. In this case, I don't necessarily think it's the devs responsibility to force them to stop, because it's just not possible.

At some point, you have to take responsibility for yourself, and having a way to do that by stopping an Endless Archive run without being punished will go a long way for many of the complaints and issues people are bringing up, including my own.

Edit: I just realized you quoted somebody else there and not me, my bad lmao

However, I think my point still applies in the broad conversation in the thread.

DinoZavr

My point is also the same: just add the ability to save.

It is possible to save progress in Maelstrom Arena, though it is short compared to upcoming Endless Archive
it was possible for Zenimax to distinguish between "friendly" ToT and leaderboard ToT

There are many voices to allow saving progress, use Armory Assistant (i see no reasons why to remove this ability)
just make two distinct modes: hardline for the leaderboard and exploration for "i am just learning the mechanics"
Not much hard, eh? And the popularity of EA shall increase, because of decreased stress and pressure.

RaptorRodeoGod

DinoZavr wrote: »

My point is also the same: just add the ability to save.

It is possible to save progress in Maelstrom Arena, though it is short compared to upcoming Endless Archive
it was possible for Zenimax to distinguish between "friendly" ToT and leaderboard ToT

There are many voices to allow saving progress, use Armory Assistant (i see no reasons why to remove this ability)
just make two distinct modes: hardline for the leaderboard and exploration for "i am just learning the mechanics"
Not much hard, eh? And the popularity of EA shall increase, because of decreased stress and pressure.

I've mentioned it before but it may have been lost, whenever the players tell the devs how to do something, they produce the same effect but in the weirdest way. So literally anything that works similar to a save function would be helpful!

Freilauftomate

Don't worry, ESO cured my video game addiction.

I can't play WoW on PC anymore, because of mouse syndrome, carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis or whatever it's called.

I tried to be an addict on console, but it just wasn't possible. I always got forced by some gamebreaking bug or random problem to quit playing for a while.

Additionally there is nothing worth getting in the game. The crown store is way too expensive, and just buying overpriced pixels never interested me. My addiction wanted to earn cool stuff with hard work, and that's not possible in ESO.

I'm not angry that the game isn't perfect and breaks down all the time. Somehow i am glad ESO is what it is and there is no real alternative on console. So thanks again, keep doing what you are doing, you are lifesavers.

maboleth

Ability to save is not only for physical and mental health but for the longevity of Endless Arena as well.

As soon as novelty wears off, only diehards will play it close to 'endless'. Others will just clear few levels and go out.

There's got to be a better design to offer a save function than what we have now.