Endless Archive is bad for physical, mental, and familial health

RaptorRodeoGod

Basically the title. There's no scenario that gaming for 10+ hours straight is healthy, let alone doing the same thing in the game over those 10 hours. Endless Archive is going to get really old really quick.

And to go with that, it's a shame that the time you have to devote to the game is the limiting factor to Endless Archive, rather than actual skill level.

MashmalloMan

Best part is they think they've addressed feedback by making it harder... Except rewards are the same, so our time spent is still not appreciated. Worth mentioning it's not like the sets are worth farming anyway, most of these sets could have come out as generic tier 3-5 crafting sets and no one would use them.

They've also removed Armory despite this content not being timed. It makes no sense. Just wastes more time.

AstroST

Endless Dungeon is just a bad idea and will becaome old and boring very soon
And this is the only thing we'll get till half next year

sleepy_worm

"Balancing" it for leaderboards by removing saved progress essentially means they made the content worse for everyone because of what at most 1% of the playerbase might do that is against their very specific idea of correct way to play. Please just let people have fun.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh It would be awesome if we had checkpoints here & there that would act as a teleport wayshrine so we could pause & continue any other day as long as quest is active.

Lugaldu

From the beginning, I thought to myself that this “hamster wheel” is certainly not particularly healthy for people at risk of addiction. From a psychological point of view, it seems to me a good thing that the rewards don't get better as the level increases, otherwise it would just be more of an incentive to play for hours or probably days until you collapse in order to get the best rewards...

Mayrael

So much wasted potential. Well at least I can finally play for free

PrincessOfThieves

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tbh It would be awesome if we had checkpoints here & there that would act as a teleport wayshrine so we could pause & continue any other day as long as quest is active.

Yeah it would be a nice solution. And they could disable leaderboards for those who use this option, most of us don't care about scores anyway.

merpins

I was hoping for something like Binding of Isaac or Enter the Gungeon; a number of small to large, procedurally generated, rooms that have one wave of monsters that lead up to a boss, then you move to the next floor. Each floor just adds more rooms before the boss, and bosses get harder. How long do isaac runs take? 30 minutes to an hour for about 10 to 14 floors? That would be fine, especially if they added checkpoints every 5 floors, or a way to save and come back. As-is, it takes far too long in a single sitting.

FantasticFreddie

Yeah I would like the limiting factor to be my skill, not that I have adult responsibilities that I need a sensible amount of sleep for...

grzes848909

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Just wastes more time.

That's their point, isn't it ?

Dojohoda

I have tried it on pts approximately 10 times. While there is an element of fun, it's not something that I would want to do for hours. There's no elderscrolls-esque adventure. It is a sweaty button masher in which you have to start over if you make 3 mistakes.

YffresTrill

This really seems like a dangerous concept for addictive personalities. ZOS should be ashamed for catering to something so unhealthy.

essi2

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

This really seems like a dangerous concept for addictive personalities. ZOS should be ashamed for catering to something so unhealthy.

You know this game has gambling already right?

As far as gameplay goes this is no different than farming a lead forever or farming dungeons.

Tigertron

Hey ZOS. [snip]

I’m a vet player and I play 1-2 hours per session. I get bored after much longer.

So now I still have to grind through boring content to get to harder content that rewards less? Because arc 5 is as hard as arc 10 was? And you raised the cost of items? Crawl through the dungeon and make progress so I can do it all over again the next time?

Add waves reward nothing. Bosses are the only fun part but they are ~10-20mins apart.

My time is valuable and you do not respect that. I played it enough on PTS. Probably won’t be playing it very often once live. My guess is very few players will play much past arc 1.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Bushido2513

This thread may or may not get shut down. There are valid points about wishing the company aren't their time on XYZ thing you may have wanted more and how this doesn't carry the spirit of the game.


That being said, getting to the health of people is a really weird thing in gaming and entertainment.

Some people will really enjoy this content and others won't. Really any content in this game requires a time commitment, some more than others and still some have more free time than others. But it shouldn't be a question about us this healthy because that's a personal choice in this case. It's an endurance challenge you can choose to accept or not and if there are other personal issues at play those should be addressed in other proper ways outside of this game.

Entaro

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Some people will really enjoy this content and others won't. Really any content in this game requires a time commitment, some more than others and still some have more free time than others. But it shouldn't be a question about us this healthy because that's a personal choice in this case. It's an endurance challenge you can choose to accept or not and if there are other personal issues at play those should be addressed in other proper ways outside of this game.

I think the difference is that there is no other content in the game that is designed in such a way as to encourage/demand that much ACTIVE play time in mostly one go. All Arenas/Trials/Dungeons are designed at the high end to be completed trifecta in 15-45 minutes. Most prog/casual groups would have runs/farms in a 1-2 hour timeframe.

Then you have this new endless archive, which at the high end for score pushing, certainly encourages degen gaming like nothing else in this game ever has. It seems fair to point out how this content compared to anything else in the game is very new in such regard.

I'm not talking about stuff like Master Angler either or other long-haul achievements. Those are things that can be done slowly in chunks over time at your own pace.

YffresTrill

essi2 wrote: »

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

This really seems like a dangerous concept for addictive personalities. ZOS should be ashamed for catering to something so unhealthy.

You know this game has gambling already right?

As far as gameplay goes this is no different than farming a lead forever or farming dungeons.

Of course I know, and I take very similar issues with that.

It certainly is different than the farming you specified, because, as others here have pointed out, that can be done in small chunks.

Jaimeh

I agree that the archive is actively encouraging unhealthy long hours, and I personally don't like the current iteration so much (I would rather have a time sensitive leaderboard or a save feature that's earned with tokens from the rewards, or some other way of fragmenting the run time), but it's an MMO so it's not really surprising, and after a point one is responsible for the own well being.

Bushido2513

Entaro wrote: »

I think the difference is that there is no other content in the game that is designed in such a way as to encourage/demand that much ACTIVE play time in mostly one go. All Arenas/Trials/Dungeons are designed at the high end to be completed trifecta in 15-45 minutes. Most prog/casual groups would have runs/farms in a 1-2 hour timeframe.

Then you have this new endless archive, which at the high end for score pushing, certainly encourages degen gaming like nothing else in this game ever has. It seems fair to point out how this content compared to anything else in the game is very new in such regard.

I'm not talking about stuff like Master Angler either or other long-haul achievements. Those are things that can be done slowly in chunks over time at your own pace.

You're breaking it down by saying the content demands you give this much time to make x achievement but there are many achievements in this game that require different commitments. This an endurance test and it's ok to not be interested in those but the choice is in the hands of the player.

Should we also take away emperor title in busy campaigns because of the massive time requirement.

Remember you're basing it on a particular health perspective. Should a 21 year old that can stay up straight for 2 days and then go move on to other content without addictive personality issues not have this content because others can't handle the possibile attached health issues on their own.

Bottom line , this game is available 24 7 so even if the content offers a break you could just restart it until you passed out. Personal responsibility is what keeps this from happening much less than the soft if any limits this game imposes on time you can play the game.

Bushido2513

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

essi2 wrote: »

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

This really seems like a dangerous concept for addictive personalities. ZOS should be ashamed for catering to something so unhealthy.

You know this game has gambling already right?

As far as gameplay goes this is no different than farming a lead forever or farming dungeons.

Of course I know, and I take very similar issues with that.

It certainly is different than the farming you specified, because, as others here have pointed out, that can be done in small chunks.

When we talk of addictive personalities it won't matter if it can be done in chunks. Restarting a chunk is the same as no break at all because in either case they won't stop until they are ready to. You would have to do what mobile games did for a while and lock them out on a single account with no option to change the time on the device.

I've been there myself when I was younger. Adding a break changes little.

YffresTrill

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Entaro wrote: »

I think the difference is that there is no other content in the game that is designed in such a way as to encourage/demand that much ACTIVE play time in mostly one go. All Arenas/Trials/Dungeons are designed at the high end to be completed trifecta in 15-45 minutes. Most prog/casual groups would have runs/farms in a 1-2 hour timeframe.

Then you have this new endless archive, which at the high end for score pushing, certainly encourages degen gaming like nothing else in this game ever has. It seems fair to point out how this content compared to anything else in the game is very new in such regard.

I'm not talking about stuff like Master Angler either or other long-haul achievements. Those are things that can be done slowly in chunks over time at your own pace.

You're breaking it down by saying the content demands you give this much time to make x achievement but there are many achievements in this game that require different commitments. This an endurance test and it's ok to not be interested in those but the choice is in the hands of the player.

Should we also take away emperor title in busy campaigns because of the massive time requirement.

Remember you're basing it on a particular health perspective. Should a 21 year old that can stay up straight for 2 days and then go move on to other content without addictive personality issues not have this content because others can't handle the possibile attached health issues on their own.

Bottom line , this game is available 24 7 so even if the content offers a break you could just restart it until you passed out. Personal responsibility is what keeps this from happening much less than the soft if any limits this game imposes on time you can play the game.

"Should a 21 year old that can stay up straight for 2 days and then go move on to other content without addictive personality issues not have this content because others can't handle the possibile attached health issues on their own."

Yes, I believe they should not have this content. There is no good reason to encourage this sort of behaviour. If someone chooses to grind nonstop for two days despite content not being specifically designed around it, then the developers cannot be blamed for it, but actively fostering it by designing content specifically around it? They certainly then hold a share of the blame.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

When we talk of addictive personalities it won't matter if it can be done in chunks. Restarting a chunk is the same as no break at all because in either case they won't stop until they are ready to. You would have to do what mobile games did for a while and lock them out on a single account with no option to change the time on the device.

I've been there myself when I was younger. Adding a break changes little.

Perhaps it changes little for some, and for you specifically, but that does not mean it won't make a difference for others. If there is less incentive to keep going without pause, then surely some will pause when they would not have otherwise.

rpa

Now that EU chars are at PTS I soloed the first arc (or whatever it is) with my casual oakensorc with some idea how it works from forums but without looking at any guides. If I had to describe my experience in one word: tedious. Not challenging as ecxected for "first" but I did die once, at final boss of arc because I was at that point too tired of it all to pay attention. I found the the wading through trash part unbearably repetitive. I don't think this content is for me even if they added save points.

Bushido2513

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

Yes, I believe they should not have this content. There is no good reason to encourage this sort of behaviour. If someone chooses to grind nonstop for two days despite content not being specifically designed around it, then the developers cannot be blamed for it, but actively fostering it by designing content specifically around it? They certainly then hold a share of the blame.

If that's the case then your point could be said to advocate getting rid of this entire game. I say that to mean that this game is designed to keep you playing. Any time you see a little reward for doing something in this game it's designed to keep you as engaged as possible for as long as possible. The only thing that stops anyone from playing for as long as they like is basically them. It's not uncommon for people on this game to play till they just can't go anymore. I've been in several instances and just watched people play till they were riding/walking into walls because they were just that exhausted and that's when they called it. Endless Archive was never required for this.

So when you say encourage this behavior, the game as a whole does this as it stands now. The closest thing this game has to telling a player to take a break is that guy at home base in cyro and when the server goes down for maintenance, that's pretty much it lol. Also too just to drive this home a bit. I can find you several mutli hour streams from several different individuals. This is all happening wayyyy before archive. And if you do a health study this practice would fall under unhealthy.

So should we make all players of the game take a required break as would be described for better health overall by most medical professionals?

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

Perhaps it changes little for some, and for you specifically, but that does not mean it won't make a difference for others. If there is less incentive to keep going without pause, then surely some will pause when they would not have otherwise.

As posted above, the incentive is already there. This might be the most pointed example by outright using the word endless and adding a reward but this behavior is already heavily seen in the game so I'm just saying addressing it here is more a symptom than the root cause that is already heavily in place. Also not having things like this doesn't encourage player choice as we talk about escapism which is what a lot of people are here for in one way or another.

I can certainly understand limitations on certain entertainment aspects of life because it's easy to quantify in some cases when something is more dangerous at a certain threshold. This is just not one of those cases that can be easily summed up as bad at xyz point or not.

I personally don't want to see people getting hurt by this game but I do think if anyone takes an honest look that adding archive will pretty much change nothing about how unhealthy this game can be for anyone that just isn't ready to make healthy choices in those areas.

Lugaldu

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I can certainly understand limitations on certain entertainment aspects of life because it's easy to quantify in some cases when something is more dangerous at a certain threshold. This is just not one of those cases that can be easily summed up as bad at xyz point or not.

I say this as someone who played computer games for days at the age of 21 too, but content that promotes non-stop gaming for days is, in my opinion, also one of the "dangerous entertainment activities". If you want to stay awake for 2-3 days in a row, you can't do it without aids, even if you're 21, which is unhealthy in itself. And there have been repeated cases of people dying of cardiac arrest, heart attack, thrombosis or something similar after playing PC games for days. Non-stop PC gaming for days is not a “safe” entertainment and people who do that have usually already lost control and are already addicted.

RaptorRodeoGod

How often would anybody go to see 10 hour movies, in theaters, where the only interesting parts start at 8 hours in? 🤔

endgamesmug

I used to mindlessly grind mobs for cp and gold/mats all day, this will probably be right up my alley!😂

spartaxoxo

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I can certainly understand limitations on certain entertainment aspects of life because it's easy to quantify in some cases when something is more dangerous at a certain threshold. This is just not one of those cases that can be easily summed up as bad at xyz point or not.

I say this as someone who played computer games for days at the age of 21 too, but content that promotes non-stop gaming for days is, in my opinion, also one of the "dangerous entertainment activities". If you want to stay awake for 2-3 days in a row, you can't do it without aids, even if you're 21, which is unhealthy in itself. And there have been repeated cases of people dying of cardiac arrest, heart attack, thrombosis or something similar after playing PC games for days. Non-stop PC gaming for days is not a “safe” entertainment and people who do that have usually already lost control and are already addicted.

Yup. Absolutely. Being punished for taking breaks is a bit too far and is an easy line to draw, even if it's harder to tell when a gamer has played too much.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I can certainly understand limitations on certain entertainment aspects of life because it's easy to quantify in some cases when something is more dangerous at a certain threshold. This is just not one of those cases that can be easily summed up as bad at xyz point or not.

I say this as someone who played computer games for days at the age of 21 too, but content that promotes non-stop gaming for days is, in my opinion, also one of the "dangerous entertainment activities". If you want to stay awake for 2-3 days in a row, you can't do it without aids, even if you're 21, which is unhealthy in itself. And there have been repeated cases of people dying of cardiac arrest, heart attack, thrombosis or something similar after playing PC games for days. Non-stop PC gaming for days is not a “safe” entertainment and people who do that have usually already lost control and are already addicted.

Yup. Absolutely. We may not be able to say two hours is fine but 4 hours is too much or whatever. But unlimited is an easy line to draw as allowing too much.

Yeah, of course it's not healthy to play a game indefinitely or even support these (probably addictive) behaviour by using various stimulants.

On the other side it's not a company's responsibility to provide a healthy living to myself. It's mine.

I don't think prohibiting people to act nonsensical is a reasonable approach.

PrincessOfThieves

I agree. Not only they exclude a large demographic (people with families and jobs), it's also super unhealthy even for those who have free time to invest. I don't want to see something like this happen to an ESO player.

Braffin wrote: »

On the other side it's not a company's responsibility to provide a healthy living to myself. It's mine.

I don't think prohibiting people to act nonsensical is a reasonable approach.

True, but they also shouldn't encourage harmful things. Before this, most hardcore achievements in ESO could be done by playing in 2 hour sessions (that's what most progs do, 2 hours 2-3 times per week). That is not unreasonable, especially when group is taking breaks. But playing for 4+ hours nonstop is simply unhealthy for anyone, and when it's the only way to get rewards/scores, some people will do it.

Treeshka

Difficulty curve seems to be made steeper but reward curve is still same. Many people are suggesting that trash mob phases should be reduced to fasten the progress to reach big rewards faster. It should be like that otherwise not many people will sit in front of the game to do the same things over and over again.