Time to speak about balance.Shield bash spam.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

Still_Mind wrote: »

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.

You might do as much damage with heavy attacks, but not with light attacks. The problem here is that bash is instant, does far more damage than a heavy attack, could be used as an interrupt, and could be done while blocking. Besides, a weapon with a lot of defensive utility should never be able to compete with weapons that were made with offence in mind.

Still_Mind · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.

You might do as much damage with heavy attacks, but not with light attacks. The problem here is that bash is instant, does far more damage than a heavy attack, could be used as an interrupt, and could be done while blocking. Besides, a weapon with a lot of defensive utility should never be able to compete with weapons that were made with offence in mind.

You can execute 3-4 attacks in the frame of one, once you learn to time the combo.

Maverick827 · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.

You might do as much damage with heavy attacks, but not with light attacks. The problem here is that bash is instant, does far more damage than a heavy attack, could be used as an interrupt, and could be done while blocking. Besides, a weapon with a lot of defensive utility should never be able to compete with weapons that were made with offence in mind.

"A lot of defensive utility?"

Still_Mind · May 2014

Well, cheaper, stronger blocks amount to *some* defensive utility. Battlefield Mobility, once it's fixed, will contribute as well, I suppose. Aside that, class skills amount to the majority of a character's defenses.

TheWired · May 2014

Hmm, I'm a still a lowbie DK (43) and don't use shield bash as a weapon myself but after seeing those videos, I have to admit that it looks pretty broken. Some people have made good remarks about blocking mechanics already, so this is only a problem in small scale PvP (1v1, 1v2) as your stamina goes away way too quickly in group fights.

One of the possible fixes could be to reduce the damage of each following bash upon repetition, preventing people to just spam kill people and stuff. Say you use shield bash once and do 250 damage, then the following one would only do 75% of that damage, and the next only 50%, and the next only 25%, or something like that. Adding a cooldown on bashing is a very bad idea as it is one of the only mechanics used to interrupt spellcasting. Also, some people need to realize that:

- Melee, as a one handed and shield user, is far below any damage done with any of the other weapon skill lines. Truthfully, I wear a shield because I am a tank and I like an "in your face" play-style but hitting with my sword only happens strategically to knock enemies down when they are stunned as damage is best done with skills from other skill lines. If I didn't have the "broken talons" skill, as other people mention, I don't know how I'd be able to kill enemies on my own.

- What is the point of bashing someone with a shield if it does no extra effect or even less damage than your (already pathetic) sword damage? You need to consider that "tanks" using this setups need to be in range and use stamina for running, blocking, breaking CC, rolling away etc. I agree that at the moment, people shield bash stuff until they die. The damage it does is FINE in my opinion considering the conditions required for you to bash; the problem is people being able to REPEAT doing so over and over again with no penalty.

Honestly, there are plenty of skill lines offering damage and only one offering defense. I tried other classes than the DK (sorcerer until almost 40, templar till late 20s) and each class has plenty of ways to be efficient in many ways given that you make sacrifices.

I wouldn't mind some of the 1h/shield skills to be nerfed damage-wise and be given more "tanky" attributes (stuns, disorients, better damage mitigation, less stamina drained while blocking) as we can just use class skills to DPS anyway. I like playing a tank but sometimes it feels like you're not really needed as blocking can be ineffective in some cases (group play) and people doing dungeons might be better off with a good DPS rather than a tank. IMO, they need to make enemies hit HARDER and blocking efficiency with a shield much better than any other weapon and than it already is.

This "play the way you want" is a nice idea on paper but classes are not equal when it comes to do specific tasks. Sure, every class can tank, every class can DPS, and so on. But some classes are better at doing things than others because of class' passives.

Legatus · May 2014

Still_Mind wrote: »

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.

You don't even do close... my non-crit numbers at Vr10:

Vr10 epic Greatsword, IV Igneous weapons 178 weapon dmg:
(8sec/10 attacks): 159 light +32 fire = 191 dmg per light swing.
(20sec/10 attacks): 372 heavy +32 fire = 408 dmg per hv swing.
bashing with GS (3 glyphs of +26) so you can see deadly bash working:
6sec/10 attacks): 210dmg (cost 196 stam)

Vr10 rare 1h sword+shield IV Igneous weapons 152 weapon dmg (3 +26 dmg bash glyphs):
(6seconds/10 attacks): 420 bash (cost 98 stam)

You don't even do 1/2 the damage of a shield bash which hits faster than your light attack (less animation time), you're always blocking, have ~200 more armor from the shield (and ~100stat from a glyph), and 1h+s also blocks 20% more. That's why it's too good imo.

Kypho · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Its called tactics, get behind him flank him etc. If your pissed because your getting stomped 1 v 1.......

HAHH what an experienced player. Block works 360 degrees HAHAHAHA Failbashspammer lolz

Xnemesis · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Its called tactics, get behind him flank him etc. If your pissed because your getting stomped 1 v 1.......

360 block mechanics make your statement just look silly

Xnemesis · May 2014

Rhythmic wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

And leave sword and shield the weakest weapon in the game? You do realize it has crap for attacks?

Yes and it should its for tanks. It should be weaker than every other weapon skill line in the game hands down don't like it use a different weapon

Drachenfier · May 2014

Legatus wrote: »

Still_Mind wrote: »

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.

You don't even do close... my non-crit numbers at Vr10:

Vr10 epic Greatsword, IV Igneous weapons 178 weapon dmg:
(8sec/10 attacks): 159 light +32 fire = 191 dmg per light swing.
(20sec/10 attacks): 372 heavy +32 fire = 408 dmg per hv swing.
bashing with GS (3 glyphs of +26) so you can see deadly bash working:
6sec/10 attacks): 210dmg (cost 196 stam)

Vr10 rare 1h sword+shield IV Igneous weapons 152 weapon dmg (3 +26 dmg bash glyphs):
(6seconds/10 attacks): 420 bash (cost 98 stam)

You don't even do 1/2 the damage of a shield bash which hits faster than your light attack (less animation time), you're always blocking, have ~200 more armor from the shield (and ~100stat from a glyph), and 1h+s also blocks 20% more. That's why it's too good imo.

Have you glyphed for melee damage and done the same comparison? just curious. Also curious how bash (considering its the only stamina attack worth using in the 1h/s line) stacks up with GS stamina attacks when glyphed for melee damage.

zoetaz1616 · May 2014

After all these "Nerf everything" posts, I think the solution is a second PvP area in the game. We can call it "Pattycake Land". It will be like flag football for Bronies.

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.

That is your counter argument? Not data on how bash isn't used that much and doesn't do that much burst, just he's the only one saying nerf?

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.

That is your counter argument? Not data on how bash isn't used that much and doesn't do that much burst, just he's the only one saying nerf?

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

You don't get you are the ONLY one in this thread arguing for a nerf.

That is your counter argument? Not data on how bash isn't used that much and doesn't do that much burst, just he's the only one saying nerf?

cliveklgb14_ESO · May 2014

edit

Legatus · May 2014

Drachenfier wrote: »

Have you glyphed for melee damage and done the same comparison? just curious. Also curious how bash (considering its the only stamina attack worth using in the 1h/s line) stacks up with GS stamina attacks when glyphed for melee damage.

I haven't specifically. Just looking at the glyphs for v10s though (crapy math below, but it's close enough for this comparison I think):

purple Weapon dmg: +11
purple Bash dmg: +30

bash glyphs seem to be 3x more effective (albeit only helping bash)

Stam attacks the only 2h stam skills I use are charge and execute:

Crit Charge is 305 stam for 245+32 dmg, but of course it always crits. Is about 415 dmg. or 1.36 dmg/stam

Reverse Slash is 239 stam for 164+32 dmg, but scales up in execute range. Let's go max 300% so 524 dmg: 2.19 dmg/stam @ 300%.

Bash: 420 dmg for 98 stam comes to 4.28 dmg/stam or almost double the efficiency of Execute at max bonus.

Sure Execute hits harder at the end of a fight, but you can bash from the get go and bash twice as many times for the same stamina.

Maverick827 · May 2014

I think those numbers just prove that melee as a whole is terrible, with Shield Bash being normal.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think those numbers just prove that melee as a whole is terrible, with Shield Bash being normal.

I do agree with that. However, bash is basically invalidating all other weapon choices right now, as it offers the most mitigation AND the most damage. Hell, it even offers a superior charge to the one from two handers. Besides, bashing over and over again has to be one of the most boring mechanics I have ever seen in all my years of PvP gaming.

SexyVette07 · May 2014

Holy crap, is that really a crit for 1953? Thats a 1 shot to players.

Dont worry though, its being adjusted in 1.1

Maverick827 · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think those numbers just prove that melee as a whole is terrible, with Shield Bash being normal.

I do agree with that. However, bash is basically invalidating all other weapon choices right now, as it offers the most mitigation AND the most damage. Hell, it even offers a superior charge to the one from two handers. Besides, bashing over and over again has to be one of the most boring mechanics I have ever seen in all my years of PvP gaming.

The only thing more boring than shield bash spam is the 1H/Shield line without shield bash spamming.

beravinprb19_ESO · May 2014

Maverick827 wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think those numbers just prove that melee as a whole is terrible, with Shield Bash being normal.

I do agree with that. However, bash is basically invalidating all other weapon choices right now, as it offers the most mitigation AND the most damage. Hell, it even offers a superior charge to the one from two handers. Besides, bashing over and over again has to be one of the most boring mechanics I have ever seen in all my years of PvP gaming.

The only thing more boring than shield bash spam is the 1H/Shield line without shield bash spamming.

Which, as I have said a number of times already, is a different balance issue entirely. Being a weak skill line does not justify it from having a few passives that, by all rights, are currently breaking melee combat. By all means, buff sword and shield, but there is no way in hell that bash is staying the way it is. To be perfectly honest, I'm amazed its lasted this long.

Maverick827 · May 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

I think those numbers just prove that melee as a whole is terrible, with Shield Bash being normal.

I do agree with that. However, bash is basically invalidating all other weapon choices right now, as it offers the most mitigation AND the most damage. Hell, it even offers a superior charge to the one from two handers. Besides, bashing over and over again has to be one of the most boring mechanics I have ever seen in all my years of PvP gaming.

The only thing more boring than shield bash spam is the 1H/Shield line without shield bash spamming.

Which, as I have said a number of times already, is a different balance issue entirely. Being a weak skill line does not justify it from having a few passives that, by all rights, are currently breaking melee combat. By all means, buff sword and shield, but there is no way in hell that bash is staying the way it is. To be perfectly honest, I'm amazed its lasted this long.

I agree, I just don't agree that it's okay to nerf it now without buffing other parts of the tre at the same time. To someone who has to abandon his 1H/Shield main after this (can't afford to respec, not leaving in veteran zones with a weapon at 1 skill), waiting a month until the next patch is just not going to cut it.

Andy22 · May 2014

Just a small tip, no-one seemed to also add to bash spam

Check how much Ultimate u gain for each of those actions:

1) Attack a mob using a light and heavy attacks.
2) Use your fastest spamable skill, with a good dps/speed/resource ratio.
3) Shield bash spam, with dmg or reduction glyphs.

U might be surprised what combo gains the quickest ultimate

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · May 2014

Andy22 wrote: »

Just a small tip, no-one seemed to also add to bash spam

Check how much Ultimate u gain for each of those actions:

1) Attack a mob using a light and heavy attacks.
2) Use your fastest spamable skill, with a good dps/speed/resource ratio.
3) Shield bash spam, with dmg or reduction glyphs.

U might be surprised what combo gains the quickest ultimate

Yes I have tested it. Shield bash gain ultimate quicker.

It's very sad to see people defending shield bash after know all this.....

Andy22 · May 2014

ITS A TRAP!

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · May 2014

Andy22 wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

It's very sad to see people defending shield bash after know all this.....

If i read correctly on PTS there is now a ~3 sec "cooldown/lock" before u can bash again.

Nah... that's a false rumor. A PTS guy told us in another thread that he tested it and nothing have changed.

Andy22 · May 2014

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Nah... that's a false rumor. A PTS guy told us in another thread that he tested it and nothing have changed.

Any idea what this changed than?

Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO · May 2014

Andy22 wrote: »

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO wrote: »

Nah... that's a false rumor. A PTS guy told us in another thread that he tested it and nothing have changed.

Any idea what this changed than?

Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

I don't know :-s

driosketch wrote: »

Just got back from testing it on the PTS. The premise of this thread is wrong. There is NO cool down to the right click left click bash/interrupt. There is also no cool down for the 1h+sh skill either if anyone is wondering. I can still spam both on enemies without delay.

OP, who exactly did you hear this rumor from?

Maybe cool down to Interrupt effect only on a single target?

Andy22 · May 2014

driosketch wrote: »

OP, who exactly did you hear this rumor from?

Just to answer this -> "Steeler" second page at tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-1-1-1/page/2/

Seems u have to test every little thing yourself and can trust no one

Thechemicals · May 2014

I know that when i power bash and shield smash spam a good player, i end up with not enough stamina to breakout and then i get cc'd and smashed.