Time to speak about balance.Shield bash spam.

Rhythmic

Veakoth wrote: »

Sounds to me like Rythmic got butt hurt at some stage an...
....have fun using it at lvl 28 or whatever, at VR1 your screwed. This is a TWINK BUILD ONLY.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BaTpZNpLY&list=UUXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw

Simple example how fast shield bash spam destroys your brain for a short amout of time.

Veakoth

It's funny watching you guy throw incorrect statistics around flailing your arms and complaining that a build is over powered when you obviously don't know how to counter it.

Rhythmic

Reavan wrote: »

I wish people would stop defending this.
We all want the game to be better but defending your little op toy contradicts that.

Gisgo wrote: »

A shield ability that does more damage than a weapon ability (while blocking), interrupts and does not require a skill slot: give it one month and everyone will be running around bashing.

Or fix it now, ffs, before it becomes the elder shields.

From this thread

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/74975/deadly-bash-extremely-op#latest

.

Veakoth

Great video Rythmic, your build is weak in comparison to a lot of dk builds

lvl 35 = 6 hits where fire breathe did 1/3 the damage
lvl 15 = 4 hits
lvl 28, 25, 33 and a lvl 10(lol) your build still appears weak, most vets could kill them faster than that, in fact my mates dk took down 3 other vet 10's nearly 5, 2 of which were using your build
He also got a Vet 1 with no attributes in health and another lowbie lvl 38 he couldn't kill cause he ran out of stamina

You keep linking all these videos with useless information, i didn't once see him fight someone higher level than himself and i havent once seen where this supposed 2k per bash hit is and where is this infinite stamina i keep hearing about.
This build is *** and will be thrown out when people start using it again either competent players or people their own level.
Also i didn't once see someone break out of CC then block so you've once again failed to state your point.
How could you possibly think a vr2 killing lowbies would classify as endgame pvp


Actually 4:27 of your video Rythmic where your Shield bash hero fights a lvl 13! who DOES block, watch it and learn, this is how easy it is to counter

bantad87

I just want to clarify - you can use ANY ability while blocking, including magic ones. I can throw out velocious curse while holding block, and still mitigate damage. I do it all the time with puncture, low slash, surge, and velocious. This is not exclusive to shield bash. Furthermore, my shield bash only does 10 more damage than puncture, and 15 more than low slash, and it applies no debuffs. If you're trying to burst a target, yeah bashing can hurt, but for any PvP larger then 1v1 or 2v2, bashing will get you destroyed promptly. The loss of ~9% stamina per bash, plus blocking stamina costs, will drain you of stamina rapidly, and cause you to lose the strongest part of one hand/shield - which is near 100% mitigation from blocks.

_Proteus_

Hmmm I just had an idea now... Invigorating Drain + Siphoning Strikes + 1H + Shield build + Devouring Swarm = limitless bashes with great heal. We should just abuse the heck of out it till someone fixes this.

feniks31_ESO

Bash is the best single-target melee dps ability in this game at the moment. You just need 3x Glyph of Bashing. Even Veiled Strike(nb) with capped magicka hits not that hard.
http://s12.postimg.org/qzuquvsvx/12973626433376092160_2014_04_19_00002.jpg

Rhythmic

feniks31_ESO wrote: »

Bash is the best single-target melee dps ability in this game at the moment. You just need 3x Glyph of Bashing. Even Veiled Strike(nb) with capped magicka hits not that hard.
http://s12.postimg.org/qzuquvsvx/12973626433376092160_2014_04_19_00002.jpg

Thank you.
I added it in head topic.

eeshaan1986rwb17_ESO

Well, other than Shield Bash and Puncture, There really is no point for going Sword and Shield in my opinion. Shield spec doesn't really have much else to offer.

Most of the time when playing S & B I've had to rely on Magicka-based abilities for damage, whereas compared to 2-hander or Dual wield, with which you can completely rely on all stamina-based weapon attacks to do all the damage for you.

Leticron2881

Most of Shield Bash Damage's problems comes from being able to attack for a seizable amount of damage, while blocking.

In order to take care of that - and not to hamper PvE Tanks - i suggest lowering the amount of bonus damage by a fair bit, while on the other hand buffing Puncture &/or Low Slash to even our (or maybe even buff) the damage.
I wholeheartily agree that playing Sword'n'Board in ESO doesn't make you a tank per se, but rather sets the tone for a more defensive fighting approach.
Still you have to do good damage, though, otherwise you just end up as a meat shield!

By redistributing the damage from Shield Bash (a mere passive) to S&B's active skills S&B can easily retain it's power - probably even get buffed in total damage, while the cheesiness of "bash to death whil blocking" gets brought down.

There could even be morphs that would allow for better damage within the S&B tree. At least Puncture (and maybe powerbash) would do fine with options that do not just favor tanking (or do suck).

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I can only give you one good advice,

Use skills that blind your target and if your foe is a 1 trick pony he will just waste his stamina while you deplete his because he needs to blocks to actualy bash.

Your target will be quickly without any stamina left to bash you or do any escape attempts and you'll be able to finish the fight with ease.

Andy22

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I can only give you one good advice,

Use skills that blind your target and if your foe is a 1 trick pony he will just waste his stamina while you deplete his because he needs to blocks to actualy bash.

U mean skills like sparks from DW? Isn't the issue that bash actually also blocks such effects? I mean i can block snares and other kinds of status effects in PvE, so i assume this also works in PvP?

Did u actually try sparks or other "blind" skills against a bash spamer or just "assume"?

Xsorus

Veakoth wrote: »

Great video Rythmic, your build is weak in comparison to a lot of dk builds

lvl 35 = 6 hits where fire breathe did 1/3 the damage
lvl 15 = 4 hits
lvl 28, 25, 33 and a lvl 10(lol) your build still appears weak, most vets could kill them faster than that, in fact my mates dk took down 3 other vet 10's nearly 5, 2 of which were using your build
He also got a Vet 1 with no attributes in health and another lowbie lvl 38 he couldn't kill cause he ran out of stamina

You keep linking all these videos with useless information, i didn't once see him fight someone higher level than himself and i havent once seen where this supposed 2k per bash hit is and where is this infinite stamina i keep hearing about.
This build is *** and will be thrown out when people start using it again either competent players or people their own level.
Also i didn't once see someone break out of CC then block so you've once again failed to state your point.
How could you possibly think a vr2 killing lowbies would classify as endgame pvp


Actually 4:27 of your video Rythmic where your Shield bash hero fights a lvl 13! who DOES block, watch it and learn, this is how easy it is to counter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWjeWorgRrU

Here ya go, I decided to make a video of me playing against mostly VR1+ players.

enjoy.

Sleepydan

If bash truly is the highest damaging single target move that exists in the game then that is something i think should change, no questions asked.

However.

Leticron2881 wrote: »

Most of Shield Bash Damage's problems comes from being able to attack for a seizable amount of damage, while blocking.

I disagree completely. That's the point of the ability. It also is it's inherent downfall. They have one style of play and it's telegraphed.

Are you telling me that if they put a quest boss you had to solo that did nothing but block and shield bash it would be unbeatable?

I mean seriously don't stand next to them and do things with a cast time. Make them use stamina on a gap closer.

I read fairly often how stamina intensive blocking actually is, abuse that in conjunction with everything else.

If you tell me they potion chug and are red guards and have stam forever, where are your potions?
If your telling me 1hshield should be a wet noodle I disagree.

Yelgis

That damage isn't very convincing. I see normal hits for about 360 with crits up to 550-600. That 1950+ dmg attack was a crit from stealth, not something done mid battle. You can tell because that combat log mod grows upwards so the entry at the bottom was the initiating attack.

Those numbers are nearly identical to the ones I pulled off with my Nightblade using Concealed Weapon in a full magicka build. I don't see it doing anymore damage than other attacks.

Maverick827

feniks31_ESO wrote: »

Bash is the best single-target melee dps ability in this game at the moment. You just need 3x Glyph of Bashing. Even Veiled Strike(nb) with capped magicka hits not that hard.
http://s12.postimg.org/qzuquvsvx/12973626433376092160_2014_04_19_00002.jpg

What's the "Rapid Stroke Passive" from?

bantad87

My experience with bash is that it does slightly more damage than other 1h/shield abilities, with slightly less stamina consumption. It does not provide the 15% damage reduction of low slash + 60% snare, or the armor and spell reduction of pierce armor. It also can't be used to cancel the animation of a light or heavy attack like those abilities can.

In effect, someone who has mastered animation cancelling with low slash/pierce armor, will do much more damage than a shield basher because they get 2 attacks to his 1.

You can also block and use low slash or pierce armor as well, that is not exclusive to shield bashing.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Andy22 wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I can only give you one good advice,

Use skills that blind your target and if your foe is a 1 trick pony he will just waste his stamina while you deplete his because he needs to blocks to actualy bash.

U mean skills like sparks from DW? Isn't the issue that bash actually also blocks such effects? I mean i can block snares and other kinds of status effects in PvE, so i assume this also works in PvP?

Did u actually try sparks or other "blind" skills against a bash spamer or just "assume"?

I think blinds are not applied by this rule, when I use my Blinding Flashes (Dawn's Wrath) on blocking ennemies I see the sparkle animation around them, I haven't tried personnaly with Heated Blade, but I suppose it does, and it might be related to the fact Blinding Flashes is an AoE.

Sakiri

Rhythmic wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Standard PVP QQ, sadly it's now started in this game too as it was inevitably going to.

Those who are here for the PVE and detest PVP will now see their beloved characters changed beyond recognition when ZOS try and attempt to pander to them and alter/nerf skills which are perfectly fine in the PVE world.

This will fail, as in all other MMOs in history which had PVP failed to achieve 'balance' and stem the QQ. In this ultimately futile attempt PVEers will be collateral damage as they are in WOW, Rift, GW2 (ESPECIALLY GW2), etc.

/sad

I cannot see how obviously broken 1button shieldbash spam which affects only PVP,will break PvE.All i ask and propose in that thread is redesign/fix so it still will helps with holding aggro,but will cut PvP 1button spam burst.

PS.And im gonna bet,ANY MMO will fail,if it will have 1 buttonspam kills in PvP,which can be countered only by "not PvP against players who use broken mechanics".

Because its a decent source of damage for tanks in pve.

Pvp whines as far as Im concerned can get bent. Run with the crowd and carry unstoppable pots.

Zordrage

anyone who is deffending this skill should not even talk abbout balance or PvP because they don't know the meaning of them..............

Amaylia

I don't have much to say about the thread since I don't PVP. However, approaching it from a conceptual point of view, I think there is an interesting point in that bash shouldn't be totally spammable. At the same time, if this is the only viable attack for one-hand and shield (is it?) then that needs to be addressed within the same stroke as a fix for bashing.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that ZOS and Bethesda designed bashing for the purpose of being an instant interrupt which is usable at any time providing you have the stamina, and not as a primary method for dealing damage. If that is the case, then they will probably want to correct it for that reason alone.

On an off-topic note, I also think that taunt should affect players. In my opinion, there should never be two sets of rules for dealing with a player versus an NPC. All abilities should function as specified whether the target is controlled by the game AI or not. If an ability is OP for use in PVP it should be considered OP for use in PVE as well, and vice versa. That is a completely different discussion though. I only mentioned it because I saw someone on page 1 talk about it.

xodaNoreshb16_ESO wrote: »

But that is just me, I could be wrong, it has happened. Once. O_o

And this just made me lol -- so humble -- you remind me of a friend I have.

limeli8

Lol reason shield bash is so strong isn't the numbers you get (although they are high) it because it can be spammed with no cool down and cost a lot less than different weapon skill with semi similar damage numbers and all that while still blocking.

Rhythmic

Zoliru wrote: »

anyone who is deffending this skill should not even talk abbout balance or PvP because they don't know the meaning of them..............

Ralathar44

esiilola wrote: »

I use shield bash in PvP and I disagree with the OP. It currently does about 200-250 dmg for me (VR1) in PvP. With jewelry enchant to lower its cost I can unload about 15 of them, theoretically 3250 damage. This damage is further reduced by armor and requires the person to stand completely still for 10 seconds or so.

It's strong 1v1, especially against someone with low health. Now here's why it's not overpowered:

1) It's totally blockable. Block reduces its damage by 50%.
2) It's mitigated by armour. You can't shield bash spam someone in heavy armour to death, even if you debuff them first. What's more, you'll be left with 0 stamina to block with afterwards if you try.
3) It's totally irrelevant in group vs. group, as it only does damage to one target.
4) If you block while bashing, anyone attacking you will drain your stamina quite fast. In group PvP you go from full stamina to 0 in about 5 seconds just blocking.
5) Battlefield mobility (speed buff while blocking) does not work. You can simply walk away from someone spamming shield bash with block on. If they don't block, you can stun, knockdown etc. instead.
6) Shield bash spam consumes so much stamina you'll be a sitting duck after. CC break is so expensive it's not doable anymore after bashing some. Also, if someone opens on you and you need to CC break, shield bashing them to death is not possible anymore due to low stamina. Even with veteran stamina pot you can only regain about 400 stamina, enough to survive with block a couple of seconds.

Anyway there's just a few reasons I've encountered in PvP on why shield bash is not that overpowered. The people I can spam to death are those who are below lvl50 and thus have crap for armour in Cyrodiil due to way the scaling works (or doesn't, in this case, was funny having my 1700 armor buff giving 0 in Cyrodiil at low lvl...). With the armour penetration buff granted to all and pierce armour I can effectively make those people have 0 armour. Anyone VR1 or above has their normal stats (ie. their armour buffs work and so on) and thus they are nowhere near as easy to kill.

He makes alot of incredibly valid points.

lajnus86b16_ESO

its hillarious that players even defend this.... im 1hand and shield and this is op, but other things need to get adressed in one hand and shield, also when they nerf this.

rdfarley89

I play my alt as a one hand and shield DK and I must agree...it is some powerful stuff. In my opinion should it be nerfed...HELL NAW!! But I respect the opinions here, but I heart my shield bash lol.

Aphyris

Yeeaaahh Cpt. America is back^^
ATM the game is completely out of balance. Nightblade bugged, Teleport mages ftw, and now an army of Cpt. Americas strike Cyrodill.....wtf XD

mblythe21b14_ESO

There is no reason to take any other melee line. Sword and Board is by far the best simply because of Shield Bash. Once you try it, you will never go back to whatever you were using before.

Does that make it okay? That's not for me to judge, but if you are not using it for single target melee it is because of one of two reasons...

1. You have never tried it.
2. You are trying to make something else just as good.

You will never be able to do #2.

jody.roaneub17_ESO

Damage needs a tweak. Need to bring it in line with other instant attack stamina moves.

My idea for a creative fix, After missing with a shield bash the player should be off balance and unable to block or perhaps a 1 second mini stun. All in all if you bashing that hard and you miss the bash you should be off balance. In its current state it doesnt have much counter play.

Drachenfier

esiilola wrote: »

I use shield bash in PvP and I disagree with the OP. It currently does about 200-250 dmg for me (VR1) in PvP. With jewelry enchant to lower its cost I can unload about 15 of them, theoretically 3250 damage. This damage is further reduced by armor and requires the person to stand completely still for 10 seconds or so.

It's strong 1v1, especially against someone with low health. Now here's why it's not overpowered:

1) It's totally blockable. Block reduces its damage by 50%.
2) It's mitigated by armour. You can't shield bash spam someone in heavy armour to death, even if you debuff them first. What's more, you'll be left with 0 stamina to block with afterwards if you try.
3) It's totally irrelevant in group vs. group, as it only does damage to one target.
4) If you block while bashing, anyone attacking you will drain your stamina quite fast. In group PvP you go from full stamina to 0 in about 5 seconds just blocking.
5) Battlefield mobility (speed buff while blocking) does not work. You can simply walk away from someone spamming shield bash with block on. If they don't block, you can stun, knockdown etc. instead.
6) Shield bash spam consumes so much stamina you'll be a sitting duck after. CC break is so expensive it's not doable anymore after bashing some. Also, if someone opens on you and you need to CC break, shield bashing them to death is not possible anymore due to low stamina. Even with veteran stamina pot you can only regain about 400 stamina, enough to survive with block a couple of seconds.

Anyway there's just a few reasons I've encountered in PvP on why shield bash is not that overpowered. The people I can spam to death are those who are below lvl50 and thus have crap for armour in Cyrodiil due to way the scaling works (or doesn't, in this case, was funny having my 1700 armor buff giving 0 in Cyrodiil at low lvl...). With the armour penetration buff granted to all and pierce armour I can effectively make those people have 0 armour. Anyone VR1 or above has their normal stats (ie. their armour buffs work and so on) and thus they are nowhere near as easy to kill.

Bears repeating, since knowledge of game mechanics are severely lacking on this board.