Time to speak about balance.Shield bash spam.

chrisub17_ESO104

It is slightly OP with a glyph of bashing in small scale skirmishing, and in pve to some extent. When running with a larger organized group, bashing is not something you do a lot of, there are better ways to kill large groups of people.

The notes on PTS seem to concur. Reduced damage for glyph of bashing,and slightly reduced stamina cost reduction.

Lynx7386

It's a way for 1h/shield players, who are lacking in damage or efficiency from abilities, to get a little more damage out of their weapon set. That's all.

The ability is fine.

Maverick827

They said that PTS patch notes aren't final, bit I'd bet there's no amount of logic and reasoning that we could supply for them to either retract this or offer other means for 1H/Shield to actually kill mobs in a reasonable amount of time (maybe buff the damage/stamina ratio of Puncture or Low Slash?).

Pretty sad that all it took was literally two or three people complaining on their forums for them to jump the gun like this. They espoused the "play how you want" mantra, but I guess the fine print was "until we nerf it."

I guess I need to pick up a Destruction Staff now.

Crescent

Maverick827 wrote: »

They said that PTS patch notes aren't final, bit I'd bet there's no amount of logic and reasoning that we could supply for them to either retract this or offer other means for 1H/Shield to actually kill mobs in a reasonable amount of time (maybe buff the damage/stamina ratio of Puncture or Low Slash?).

Pretty sad that all it took was literally two or three people complaining on their forums for them to jump the gun like this. They espoused the "play how you want" mantra, but I guess the fine print was "until we nerf it."

I guess I need to pick up a Destruction Staff now.

You mean pick Pulsar, because outside Impulse and its morphs, all the destro staff skills and passives are even more garbage than 1h/shield. Stop whining your easymode spec got nerfed.

If you want to do competitive damage you should pay a risk for it. You don't get to roll with capped armor and high block capacity while doing that kind of damage.

Maverick827

"Stop whining," he said, whining about Deadly Bash being too good.

Yusuf

well i dont have a problem with the bashing either i'm a destostaff-sorcerer (and yes, i use bolt escape) and its pretty exciting seeing an enemy who doesnt immediately flee or die when i attack him 1v1. actually every player should try blocking a bit more, u wont get cc'd or stunned that way;)

IKilled007

Lots of people who clearly have never played PvP or have not played it recently seem to be chiming up in this post. At least 85% of players in PvP are now using a shield precisely to do what you see in the videos. The only thing that could make Shield Bashing any more powerful would be if when you spammed it, it also summoned Tie-Fighters to strafe the enemy with lasers. Anyone who says this is not OP is either simply ignorant or using it to crush enemies with.

Maverick827

ikilled007b16_ESO wrote: »

Lots of people who clearly have never played PvP or have not played it recently seem to be chiming up in this post. At least 85% of players in PvP are now using a shield precisely to do what you see in the videos. The only thing that could make Shield Bashing any more powerful would be if when you spammed it, it also summoned Tie-Fighters to strafe the enemy with lasers. Anyone who says this is not OP is either simply ignorant or using it to crush enemies with.

Or maybe they're just PvE players sick of getting nerfed because of PvP in every damn MMO. Doubly so because they clearly don't mind making abilities that only do things against monsters as not to imbalance PvP. Except this time, because screw shield users, right?

Tanks are already marginalized enough in PvE. There's already such a small reason to go 1H/Shield, after this narrow-sighted nerf, there will.be none. You get a better taunt from Undaunted anyway.

IKilled007

Maverick827 wrote: »

ikilled007b16_ESO wrote: »

Lots of people who clearly have never played PvP or have not played it recently seem to be chiming up in this post. At least 85% of players in PvP are now using a shield precisely to do what you see in the videos. The only thing that could make Shield Bashing any more powerful would be if when you spammed it, it also summoned Tie-Fighters to strafe the enemy with lasers. Anyone who says this is not OP is either simply ignorant or using it to crush enemies with.

Or maybe they're just PvE players sick of getting nerfed because of PvP in every damn MMO. Doubly so because they clearly don't mind making abilities that only do things against monsters as not to imbalance PvP. Except this time, because screw shield users, right?

Tanks are already marginalized enough in PvE. There's already such a small reason to go 1H/Shield, after this narrow-sighted nerf, there will.be none. You get a better taunt from Undaunted anyway.

So there's no middle ground then? Either we let people use a shield spamming ability which causes certain death to other players or we're screwing shield users? Wrong. We can work for some balance. Most people regardless of class are now using shields in PvP just like most people are using Vampire in PvP. The advantages are overpowering. Or maybe the argument from you people is that the Developers designed the first perfectly-balanced, flawless game and imbalance is a metaphysical impossibility.

Maverick827

Another problem is that you're expecting us to take your figure of "most people who PvP are using shileds now" as gospel, when you have every reason in the world to lie about it. PvE players, however, have no such motive to lie about our experiences and positions because we're not playing the competitive part of the game.

Shield Bash is the only thing that makes 1H/Shield viable in PvE. Nothing in the patch notes indicates that they plan on compensating for its loss in any way. Their typical lack of communication makes us unsure if they even know this problem.

PvPers are always going to complain about and threaten to quit over something. If they're not going to compensate PvE nerfs because of PvP nerfs, we need to fight said PvP nerfs.

Amaylia

Maverick827 wrote: »

Another problem is that you're expecting us to take your figure of "most people who PvP are using shileds now" as gospel, when you have every reason in the world to lie about it. PvE players, however, have no such motive to lie about our experiences and positions because we're not playing the competitive part of the game.

Shield Bash is the only thing that makes 1H/Shield viable in PvE. Nothing in the patch notes indicates that they plan on compensating for its loss in any way. Their typical lack of communication makes us unsure if they even know this problem.

PvPers are always going to complain about and threaten to quit over something. If they're not going to compensate PvE nerfs because of PvP nerfs, we need to fight said PvP nerfs.

I think they should do something about the bash issue as well, because it just seems like such an obvious oversight on the part of the developers. However, as I said before, I think that any such fix must also be accompanied by another change which offers a balanced amount of damage with the sword. Maybe a passive that increase 1h damage a bit more, or something like that.

Orrrr... maybe this?
http://youtu.be/eTCYv_CLyMQ

Wifeaggro13

Rhythmic wrote: »

"Deadly bash" skill should be nerfed/redesigned.

2.2k damage bursts for 2-3seconds,with almost no stamina cost.It deals more damage in PvP than 2h sword,DW or bow.
If you meet shielded enemy 1v1 you can run,or being shieldspammed to the death.You can't stun/share/immobilize bash spamming enemy,because he's holding block,and ALL he need to do,to kill you is spamming shieldbash (300,500crits vr1 dk/templar).

That ability should be nerfed/redesigned ASAP.
I asked couple(16persons to be honest) of veteran PvP/Sologankers , (including fame PvP'ers like Kesil),and they completly agree with it.(most of them says its is a kind of bad joke,or "it will be nerfed sooner than bolt escape")

Press RMB to win or interesting PvP?

Increasing shield bash GCD(global coolodwn) would be a good solution.So u cannot spam anyone to death for 2sec charge stun.

Update:

feniks31_ESO wrote: »

Bash is the best single-target melee dps ability in this game at the moment. You just need 3x Glyph of Bashing. Even Veiled Strike(nb) with capped magicka hits not that hard.
http://s12.postimg.org/qzuquvsvx/12973626433376092160_2014_04_19_00002.jpg

Update:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jzKJi_aCBg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_BaTpZNpLY

The problem with this is all the damn melee skills are horrible . you take it away and those that play heavy type tank chr'swont be able to kill things effciently and effectively in VR PVE content. im fine with them nerfing it if they fix Melee in general its F ing horrible. Melee skills are pretty horrible but i do understand in PVP shield charge stun and bashing you to death is no fun. but there are several classes and skill combos that are just as over powered

Wifeaggro13

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Prospero_ESO wrote: »

Tweek wrote: »

What you need to understand is, this isn't OP at all. It is what One handed and shield was meant to do.

Dude, i have seen people attacking from stealth with shield bash one shotting people, this is one of the most ridiculous skills together with bolt escape. There is no question that the offensive part of the skill has to be adjusted.

And leave sword and shield the weakest weapon in the game? You do realize it has crap for attacks?

Its absloutely useless in PVE and tanks in general across the board are in bad shape in end game. the dynamics in VR dungeons its almost better to not have a heavy armored SNS player .

The_Drexill

As a bash DK tank... I agree. It needs to be toned down, no way around it. Right now, One hand and Shield vastly out damages both two handed, and dual wield. It's currently the strongest melee build in game, not only from a damage perspective, but it also gives you the added defense over the other lines.

More than likely all that needs to happen is a slight stamina increase. Right now, I can bash 10+ times, and hit harder with a bash than a two handed uppercut... but I can only get maybe 3-4 uppercuts out of a stamina bar with a 2 second cast time.

beravinprb19_ESO

People fail to understand that a tank should not be doing competitive damage... What is the point of having a DPS if the tank can do that as well? As a 2H DPS, watching a 1H/S pull off competitive damage by spamming one ability over and over again is almost insulting. Throw in the fact that they are also blocking, and wow... How did that get past beta? I have fought this a number of times in PvP, and it renders a lot of melee builds quite useless.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Well its a good think they are nerfing this in 1.1. now we can all live happily ever after.

Lovely

The thing is - it is very rare I have been able to do a 1v1 in pvp. If one of the parties seems to be losing, they run away.

How often does one meet such a situation that it yells for a nerf? And I mean this not only in PvP but in PvE as well.

For me it does 225-240dmg (VT2) with Ransack on; I have a weapon of around 105 weapon damage and no specific jewelry, 10-29-10 spec. Maybe it scales really well, but even so, PvE for a tank usually means: more than one mob, mobs who can't be knocked back, mobs who put red circles around them that you have to move from. It's not like it's a one button win.

I don't see shield bash as a concern in PvE at all.

And for PvP, I said my 2 cents, but I'm not all that big on it so I may be wrong. Two days ago I had a VT10 vampire with 1h+shield jump on me with it, but I managed to put a volcanic rune under me so he eventually left.

Maverick827

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

People fail to understand that a tank should not be doing competitive damage... What is the point of having a DPS if the tank can do that as well? As a 2H DPS, watching a 1H/S pull off competitive damage by spamming one ability over and over again is almost insulting. Throw in the fact that they are also blocking, and wow... How did that get past beta? I have fought this a number of times in PvP, and it renders a lot of melee builds quite useless.

DPS can already tank vet dungeons, why can't tanks DPS?

Sword and Shield also doesn't mean the character automatically is a tank. If that's what Zenimax intends, then they need to make tanks required, otherwise the entire skill line is pretty unnecessary, no?

Crescent

Maverick827 wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

People fail to understand that a tank should not be doing competitive damage... What is the point of having a DPS if the tank can do that as well? As a 2H DPS, watching a 1H/S pull off competitive damage by spamming one ability over and over again is almost insulting. Throw in the fact that they are also blocking, and wow... How did that get past beta? I have fought this a number of times in PvP, and it renders a lot of melee builds quite useless.

DPS can already tank vet dungeons, why can't tanks DPS?

Sword and Shield also doesn't mean the character automatically is a tank. If that's what Zenimax intends, then they need to make tanks required, otherwise the entire skill line is pretty unnecessary, no?

DPS don't tank vet dungeons unless they're exploiting a mechanic or bug with boss AI. Drop that ***.

Maverick827

Yes they are.

Drachenfier

Crescent wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

People fail to understand that a tank should not be doing competitive damage... What is the point of having a DPS if the tank can do that as well? As a 2H DPS, watching a 1H/S pull off competitive damage by spamming one ability over and over again is almost insulting. Throw in the fact that they are also blocking, and wow... How did that get past beta? I have fought this a number of times in PvP, and it renders a lot of melee builds quite useless.

DPS can already tank vet dungeons, why can't tanks DPS?

Sword and Shield also doesn't mean the character automatically is a tank. If that's what Zenimax intends, then they need to make tanks required, otherwise the entire skill line is pretty unnecessary, no?

DPS don't tank vet dungeons unless they're exploiting a mechanic or bug with boss AI. Drop that ***.

They most certainly do.

Xsorus

Shield Bash will still be viable after the patch, they nerfed the oped part (Bash Damage Glyphs)

Maverick827

Shield Bash as an interrupt will be fine, but it's Shield Bash as a damage source - the only thing that makes the 1H/Shield line viable at all - that people are worried about.

beravinprb19_ESO

Maverick827 wrote: »

Shield Bash as an interrupt will be fine, but it's Shield Bash as a damage source - the only thing that makes the 1H/Shield line viable at all - that people are worried about.

The fact that its one hand / shields only source of real damage is a different balance issue. A lot of weapons are rather lacking as far as damage is concerned, and most players roll with class abilities instead. That said, its a bad idea to give an excellent defensive weapon a lot of damage too, as everyone will just end up using it. At least, that's how I see it...

Drachenfier

Except it doesn't have a lot damage right now. Bash only deals a lot of damage when you glyph your gear specifically to increase bash damage. That's being fixed. Bash itself is absolutely fine.

Maverick827

Too bad they're nerfing it even more:

-Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

Crescent

Maverick827 wrote: »

Too bad they're nerfing it even more:

-Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

The tears are almost as delicious as vampire tears. Can't wait for the DK tears either.

Maverick827

I'm not crying, I'm just disappointed in ZOS. It looks like they're just going to be another MMO developer who caves to the tiniest amount of pressure and nerfs without thinking.

And even worse, they nerf without any communication. Do they know that this will render the 1H/Shield tree useless for PvE? Do they care? Hell if I know, because we get one Reddit AMA after a month of silence, and then more silence.

Obscure

I think the fix ZOS has incoming for it will do fine. Less cost reduction and a Nerf to bash damage glyphs is fine, though I'm not certain it was entirely warranted. Only problem I ever had with bash spam was it interrupting my power attacks...but that wasn't really a balance issue, just a "stop power attacking the bash spammer" issue.

Still_Mind

I do almost as much damage, for 0 stamina, with 2-handed medium-heavy\light combos. Go ahead, start complaining about 2h.