Dear devs: do you realise that your content beta testers are not you average player? I beg you read

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

The easy, simple solution would be to implement a normal mode for the less skilled and a vet mode for the git gud crowd, just like all the other arenas, dungeons and such.

Also get rid of the threads, and allow saves for those who wish to do so.

arc 1 is normal mode

arc 4 is considered vet

anything past arc 4 is basically vet hard mode

CGPsaint · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

arc 1 is normal mode

arc 4 is considered vet

anything past arc 4 is basically vet hard mode

Arc 1 is overland difficulty at best, and higher Arcs are considerably easier if you get the right Visions. RNG is going to play a huge factor in how far you're able to progress per run.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

arc 1 is normal mode

arc 4 is considered vet

anything past arc 4 is basically vet hard mode

Arc 1 is overland difficulty at best, and higher Arcs are considerably easier if you get the right Visions. RNG is going to play a huge factor in how far you're able to progress per run.

yeah going past arc 4 is definitely going to be more RNG on visions

you get the undaunted bust clearing arc 4 which is why i was saying it was considered "vet" but i dont think it would be impossible to overcome with minimal good vision choices

CGPsaint · November 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah going past arc 4 is definitely going to be more RNG on visions

you get the undaunted bust clearing arc 4 which is why i was saying it was considered "vet" but i dont think it would be impossible to overcome with minimal good vision choices

I can tell you that it's pretty difficult to advance far with poor Vision options. I'm rolling a MagSorc and my run last night kept giving me Martial Damage and Stamina options. It was not ideal. I ended up placing 11th on the Leaderboard with that run, but feel like I could have pushed top 5 with 1-2 different Visions.

Necrotech_Master · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah going past arc 4 is definitely going to be more RNG on visions

you get the undaunted bust clearing arc 4 which is why i was saying it was considered "vet" but i dont think it would be impossible to overcome with minimal good vision choices

I can tell you that it's pretty difficult to advance far with poor Vision options. I'm rolling a MagSorc and my run last night kept giving me Martial Damage and Stamina options. It was not ideal. I ended up placing 11th on the Leaderboard with that run, but feel like I could have pushed top 5 with 1-2 different Visions.

for leaderboard yeah, but you usually have to go way past arc 4 for that

on PC NA for the duo leaderboard you almost need to reach arc 7-8 to even place on the leaderboard, and for that yeah having good vision choices is a must

the solo leaderbard is a bit more forgiving in terms of distance, but still have to clear at least arc 4 to even place decently

i know it just released on console so a lot of the high scores are probably on the lower side right now as people make new builds for the content

ArchMikem · November 2023

Kisakee wrote: »

Stop asking to wash harder content down to the point where a baby can play it while being afk.

You dislike harder content because not everyone can play it to the extend. I dislike soft content because everyone can play it without even thinking about it. Who can even tell that the majority of players is casual, maybe it's the other way around.

So your point is as valid as mine and from me it's a big old NO.

It's definitely not the other way round, that's obvious to see just by playing the game and witnessing everyone else and watching them play.

BlueRaven · November 2023

This year has been a bit of a “Dear John” letter to casual players from Zos, and on my end it is definitely showing its effects. Two of my guilds, both over five years old, closed up. Three other “sister” guilds closed. And a third one that I am in is on life support after the GM, and a number of officers have effectively moved on to other games, claiming they “may” be back for the next chapter.

The high end community, and pvp players, do need content, 100%. And EA, despite what the creators say, is aimed directly at the high end crowd. But necrom cannibalized world events for the high end players, and now they cannibalized a questing dlc, for them as well.

They have done dlcs that served both crowds in the past (The Reach, for example) but for basically most of this year they have given nothing for average casual players to do.

Casual players are not going to come here and complain, they are just going to go play other games without making a sound, and that is what’s happening with the guilds I am involved in.

And truth be told it’s happening to me, a “day one” CE box customer. Now I play ESO in 10 min increments. There are plenty of other games trying hard to make me a customer, while ESO seems to be looking for players who are not me. Weirdly WoW’s upcoming new xpac seems more appealing to me than ESO, and I have not played that game since ESO came out.

I am curious what will happen next year, which is the only reason I am keeping a toe in the water here. But honestly with each day, it seems to matter less and less. I really don’t know why they think the average player is going to stick around, but whatever, maybe they have a plan for next year that will be more exciting.

Elsonso · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

The high end community, and pvp players, do need content, 100%. And EA, despite what the creators say, is aimed directly at the high end crowd. But necrom cannibalized world events for the high end players, and now they cannibalized a questing dlc, for them as well.

Two updates this year focused on dungeon and arena content, the normal one and a special one, plus the new trial and Bastion Nymic in the Chapter, will certainly give that impression.

Last year wasn't a good year on a number of different levels, either.

Hopefully, 2024 is better.

peacenote · November 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

This year has been a bit of a “Dear John” letter to casual players from Zos, and on my end it is definitely showing its effects. Two of my guilds, both over five years old, closed up. Three other “sister” guilds closed. And a third one that I am in is on life support after the GM, and a number of officers have effectively moved on to other games, claiming they “may” be back for the next chapter.

The high end community, and pvp players, do need content, 100%. And EA, despite what the creators say, is aimed directly at the high end crowd. But necrom cannibalized world events for the high end players, and now they cannibalized a questing dlc, for them as well.

They have done dlcs that served both crowds in the past (The Reach, for example) but for basically most of this year they have given nothing for average casual players to do.

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content. I guess it really replaced both. But let's look at the dungeon release cadences:

2023: **2 Dungeons** Scrivener's Hall, Bal Sunnar
2022: **4 Dungeons** Earthen Root Enclave, Graven Deep, Coral Aerie, Shipwright's Regret
2021: **4 Dungeons** Black Drake Villa, The Cauldron, Red Petal Bastion, The Dread Cellar
2020: **4 Dungeons** Castle Thorn, Stone Garden, Icereach, Unhallowed Grave
2019: **4 Dungeons** Moongrave Fane, Lair of Maarselok, Depths of Malatar, Frostvault
2018: **4 Dungeons** Moon Hunter Keep, March of Sacrifices, Fang Lair, Scalecaller Peak
2017: **2 Dungeons** Bloodroot Forge, Falkreath Hold
2016: **2 Dungeons** Cradle of Shadows, Ruins of Mazzatun
2015: **2 Dungeons** Imperial City Prison, White Gold Tower
2014/2015: **24 Dungeons** (will not list them all)

It's not a contest on who lost or benefited more, but regardless of the primary audience for EA, if your favorite content was end game dungeons (as is mine), you also missed out this year, only receiving two dungeons for the first time since 2017. EA is a much bigger uninterrupted time commitment and, as such, is not the same kind of experience as a dungeon at all. It is closest to our arena content, imo. Plus, dungeons address two levels of players with both normal and vet options. Finally, I also assume that EA used more resources from the dungeon team than the story content team, so that's why to me it feels like EA was more of a direct replacement of the two lost dungeons than the lost story DLC. Whereas my guess was that the focus on bug fixes and quality of life updates were what replaced the additional story content we usually get. It doesn't matter which content was released in which quarter but more what resources were likely used to make the content.

I also question the assessment that the Necrom world events were targeted at high end players. That content is harder that the basic world events, but does not require certain builds, group compositions, etc. to complete. If anything, I see it as an attempt to create a level of content in between the super easy normal overland level and if you're playing close the ceiling. I think it also was a way to encourage grouping.

Which all leads me to observe that if both end gamers and casual players feel that they lost content this year... how can ZOS provide enough content updates, introduce new content, and fix bugs at a pace that keeps everyone satisfied? I looked at the roadmap for this year, and they did release a lot of things that theoretically could be enjoyed by all players - a new class to try, two new companions, two new Tales of Tribute decks, the group finder, and new mythics. They truly executed on exactly what they promised. They set more resources aside to work on quality of life improvements, and they tried to implement content that encourages re-playing content (a new class, EA where all the bosses across Tamriel come back in a new way, new reasons to try ToT, easier access to group up for content you may not have been able to do before, etc.) Despite the fact that there is ongoing frustration with the way ZOS communicates, I almost feel bad that they did try to listen to the feedback and package it together in a year that showed they were listening, and many people are still unhappy.

It is funny because, for me personally, I am much happier with this year vs. last year, which ushered in the closure of many guilds and departure of many friends in my corner of ESO, due to AwA and the U35 combat changes. The new content I enjoyed almost wasn't enough to make up for the loss of my beloved character tracking, replayability, and templar animations, along with the exodus of many people I knew in the game, whereas this year nothing I enjoyed from the game was removed. My biggest complaints are that I wish we would have gotten two more dungeons, and I think the strategy for bug fixes/QoL updates was less than ideal, where they did fix a lot of things but didn't target some of the things that are most painful and annoying across the game. I also think arcanists are a little too OP, such that raid comps are a bit silly right now... but I'm sure that will adjust in time.

BlueRaven · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

Paralyse · November 2023

Unfortunately ZOS does not have the ability to produce chapters with content on the level of WoW, and never has.

That's fine with me, but when each new ESO chapter is priced the same as each new WoW expansion, the huge gap in content becomes much more obvious.

Imagine an ESO chapter where we got 3-4 trials with 7-12 bosses each, 8-10 dungeons, 7-9 quest zones, and a much wider variety of solo and overland content...

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Got my weekly by running until the 4th boss (8 cycles), and even though I have been told the mechanics, I still died to it as I can't move fast enough to get to the platform and it one hits you. I had to run it a second time to clear the four more cycles to get the weekly then quit, without even seeing the boss I would get. I'm done with it though as I am clearly NOT their target audience.

I've said it before, but even if you EDIT the crap out of some of the bosses in ARC bloody 1 they are still beyond my ability to complete...

Being endless to me just means that I will spend all my time in ESO endlessly avoiding the place until my sub runs out!

Paralyse · November 2023

The devs are under no obligation to make content that players of any and all skill levels can complete. Wouldn't be much of a game then if nothing was challenging. It's okay for there to be some things in this game that not everyone can do. There's lots of things I can't do and might not ever be able to do.

I'm personally quite pleased to see ESO actually throwing some bones to the endgame community and those of us who enjoy a challenge (even if we can't overcome it yet) after neglecting the endgame community for a very long time. Most of the players in my guilds in my corner of ESO that left didn't leave because of U35, or AwA, they left because the concerns of endgame players were ignored, minimized, or fell on deaf ears for too long. If anything, the game needs more, and more challenging, endgame content. Questing is great, but quests are "one and done", and it's hard to stay interested in a game when you finish everything there is to do in the first 2 weeks unless you have a reason to keep going back, and EA is one reason to do so.

And yes, PTS does tend to have more experienced players who push harder content. This is because many players who are not into endgame / progression / group content have little reason to log on to PTS in the first place unless they just want to check out new features or zones, and for many of those players it can feel like "spoilers" or ruin the fun of experiencing the new content for the first time.

peacenote · November 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests.

And, I say this not to be difficult, but really out of love for ESO's dungeon content (it is my absolute favorite)... the Endless Dungeon and Bastion Nymic are not, in any way, substitutes for dungeon content. Neither have two levels of content, have speed mode, hard mode, etc., add variety to the random dungeon queues, add set variety including monster sets, have a supporting quest story to other released content, or (as far as I know, but I've fully unlocked neither yet) provide a skill point. Any dungeons released in next patch will be next year's dungeons, and unless they release six in 2024, it's irrelevant.

Bastion Nymic: Bastion Nymic is like a dungeon only in that the instanced piece caps out at four people. It is comparable to dungeon content only to people who dislike harder content, and therefore put everything harder than overland in the same bucket... but from a challenge, experience, and replayability standpoint, it's not the same at all. I can easily duo Bastion Nymic and can solo it on certain characters, which is not something I can do with the vet DLC HMs. It's like saying if they added a new kind of water across Tamriel (how about...they split out bays into their own category, with new rare fish and bait for bays, different than ocean coasts), that this is as good as adding questing because it is not instanced content. All instanced content isn't equal or the same experience, same as non instanced content.

EA: EA can get harder than vet dungeon content, but that comes with a time investment I usually don't have, and I can only play with one of my friends at a time instead of three. I rarely do the solo arenas because of how long they are, even with the ability to save progress, so the randomness of EA combined with how it resets makes it so much worse. If I'm struggling with a boss on there, there's no way to know how many runs it will take before I run into it again. I can't practice it. And I certainly can't beat it if I have a spare hour like I can with a dungeon. Yes, it's hard content, but it doesn't fit nicely into the play time I have. It also requires me to work on solo/duo builds, being more about survivability like arenas, which is great for me improving as a player but is, again, a whole different thing than taking a healing slot in a dungeon and seeing if I can tackle it with my dungeon team.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining; I like EA and Bastion Nymic. I'm just explaining why they aren't like dungeons.

But that does make me wonder. When you say, you have nothing to do in game (assuming you aren't just burned out)... what is it that makes you excited to log in, as the type of player that you (and your friends) are? Do you come for the new stories but it's one and done? I ask because I think ZOS imagined questers making a new arcanist and revisiting all the story content again - something that certainly would take a good chunk of time for most people. Their whole theme this year was about revisiting content. Is that something you never do because you don't re-do quest content, or something you would never do because you don't do the alt thing, or something you've been doing for years and don't need to do it for the 12th or 20th time, or something that's become less fun since AwA... or other?

Maybe I'm a unique player but I do all the content. I PvE, PvP, dig up leads, fish and craft, mess around with Companions, quest, run dungeons, run trials, do arenas, chase achievements. But what keeps me logging in is new dungeon and trial content. So my theory is this -- it is less about the mix of "difficult" to "average player" content, because from a time perspective, if someone is a new or average player, the mix of "difficult" to "average" leans way way WAY towards the average player. It's more about new content being delivered in the format they most enjoy, especially if there is a cost attached.

My guess is that the OP enjoys combat-related content, so the hours and hours of content available through ToT or unlocking lore through leads doesn't "count" as "average player content" to them. You and your quitting guild-mates perhaps enjoy story-related content, and mechanisms to revisit content aren't enough to keep you occupied without regularly delivered new content alongside these mechanisms? Does that seem close to the mark?

And this I do understand. It also seems maybe to be a useful scenario for ZOS to understand if they want to keep their customers. Which features are supplementary and which ones drive people to buy? ZOS could triple the furniture limit and release a furniture bag and update the housing UI so it incorporates all ideas from all of the best PC mods... but these improvements would not keep me in ESO if I was ready to quit. Because for me housing is the appetizer, not the main meal. Thus, I think it really is misleading to lump EA and Bastion Nymic into one category with dungeons or trials, and then conclude that ZOS is catering to "those players." Because it's not all the same type of content, and EA/BN are no more a substitute for dungeons than they are for quests. They are their own thing.

Another thing to consider is that, as far as new content TYPES go, this is the first time in years that we've seen "hard" content in a truly new format style. A bunch of the last new features were the opposite of that. I'll make another list, this time of new feature types categorized by difficulty level with regards to having combat skills and good builds:

2023: **mix of challenging and accessible** EA and BN, Arcanist Class
2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute
2021: **easily accessible** Companions
2020: **easily accessible** Antiquities
2019: **easily accessible** Necromancer Class, dragon hunts
2018: **easily accessible** new skill line, Jewelcrafting
2017: **easily accessible** Warden Class, Battlegrounds, Transmutation, player housing
2016: **easily accessible** two new skill lines, One Tamriel
2015: **mix of challenging and accessible** Tamriel Unlimited, Crown Store, solo arena

I probably missed a few things, but from what I can tell, until this year, players who enjoy a bit of a challenge haven't seen a new content type since 2015 when the solo arena was introduced! How anyone can think that ZOS is "catering to the elites" is really beyond me. And when you think about it like this, per feature as opposed to per content amount, it's no wonder people have been calling out for more hard content for a long time. Now, if only PvP could get some love now...

Obviously, the best case scenario for ZOS is that all new content is compelling and everyone tries and enjoys everything... but at the very least it would be nice if folks weren't so resentful when something is released that others enjoy, even if it is not their cup of tea. I strongly disagree with the OP's perspective, and I hope there isn't a reactionary nerfing of EA as a result of sentiments like these, but I do think BlueRaven's post which talks about people quitting is concerning and is worth ZOS's consideration. As a community we don't want folks to quit - we want everyone to stay and more to join! Throughout ESO's history there were a few key moments that really triggered a mass exodus. If I recall correctly, they were the change to arena weapons, the long hiatus of battleground queuing with friends, U33 AwA, U35 Combat Changes, and faith lost in PvP when there were no significant results after PvP was treated like an experimental test lab. If something about this year is triggering a mass exodus in a certain type of player, getting to the root of who they are and what they'd like to see next year seems worthwhile.

TaSheen · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

If something about this year is triggering a mass exodus in a certain type of player, getting to the root of who they are and what they'd like to see next year seems worthwhile.

I believe it's already to late to talk about what anyone wants to see next year. In fact, they probably have already planned out through 2025 - so talking about what people want to see needs to be slanted two years in the future.

kringled_1 · November 2023

EA does give a skill point on completion of the initial quest.

BlueRaven · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests…..

They got the initial questing, yes, and then a full stop on content.

World events were taken away from overland content as well, on the chapter release.

The “dungeon crowd” lost two dungeons, true. But they GAINED:

- A dungeon style world events.
- The EA “endless dungeon”.
- The trial finder.

- And they are getting two new dungeons next quarter.

I would also say that the “questing crowd” lost out even more because housing plans were placed behind these new instanced activities, and were no longer available to casual overland players.

Edit: And ToT deck parts were placed in the instanced content as well.

grewkshd · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

arc 1 is normal mode

arc 4 is considered vet

anything past arc 4 is basically vet hard mode

Arc 1 is overland difficulty at best, and higher Arcs are considerably easier if you get the right Visions. RNG is going to play a huge factor in how far you're able to progress per run.

That's just not true, and the biggest problem with Endless Archive, no matter what visions you collect, Arc 5 is always harder than Arc 1.

This is because visions do not scale, whereas enemies do. Even if you could hand pick every vision, I'd guess it's technically impossible to get to Arc 15 solo right now...That's a problem for an 'Endless mode'.

colossalvoids · November 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests…..

The “dungeon crowd” lost two dungeons, true. But they GAINED:

- A dungeon style world events.
- The EA “endless dungeon”.
- The trial finder.

Not sure we're sharing this opinion as the world event is a world event still, bearing semblance to a small normal difficulty dungeon isn't doing much for people liking actual full fledged dungeons I'm afraid. Not aware of people booking evening for their team to run BN for two hours straight.

EA is an arena, which overlaps surely with many dungeon enjoyers but those aren't as frequent addition as any other through the game's life to be a nuisance really. Arena folk are the ones ghosted here for years. Both ea and bn have quests associated with them though, technically ticking both boxes for zos (not ticking any in reality for some from both "camps").

Not sure what trial finder does for dungeon people more than any other demographic.

BlueRaven · November 2023

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests…..

The “dungeon crowd” lost two dungeons, true. But they GAINED:

- A dungeon style world events.
- The EA “endless dungeon”.
- The trial finder.

Not sure we're sharing this opinion as the world event is a world event still, bearing semblance to a small normal difficulty dungeon isn't doing much for people liking actual full fledged dungeons I'm afraid. Not aware of people booking evening for their team to run BN for two hours straight.

EA is an arena, which overlaps surely with many dungeon enjoyers but those aren't as frequent addition as any other through the game's life to be a nuisance really. Arena folk are the ones ghosted here for years. Both ea and bn have quests associated with them though, technically ticking both boxes for zos (not ticking any in reality for some from both "camps").

Not sure what trial finder does for dungeon people more than any other demographic.

This argument feels a bit disingenuous.

Casual “overland questing” players are not utilizing ANY of these features. So if it’s not for them, who is the closest target audience?

It’s obviously people who utilize instanced content. If you want to parse it and say that dungeon and trial players are not the same, then knock yourself out. Or maybe group finder can be utilized for a WB in Malabol Tor. I would come back and point out that companions are not casual content then as they can be utilized in dungeons and trials.

But we both know who the intended audience is for all that respective additions to the game.

Soarora · November 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests…..

They got the initial questing, yes, and then a full stop on content.

World events were taken away from overland content as well, on the chapter release.

The “dungeon crowd” lost two dungeons, true. But they GAINED:

- A dungeon style world events.
- The EA “endless dungeon”.
- The trial finder.

- And they are getting two new dungeons next quarter.

I would also say that the “questing crowd” lost out even more because housing plans were placed behind these new instanced activities, and were no longer available to casual overland players.

Edit: And ToT deck parts were placed in the instanced content as well.

“Dungeon crowd” here, this is my perspective:

- Bastion Nymics were a flop. No group likes them. Not casuals, not endgamers. I theorize it is one of many attempts by ZOS to get people to do group content, but it takes too long.

- EA has been popular with dungeon enjoyers.

- The group finder has sections for anything. It doesn’t seem to have been getting enough use to be useful though, hopefully that changes. That said, it’s pretty clearly made for all kinds of players.

- Next quarter is Q1. We can only assume we are getting 2 more dungeons but that hasn’t been announced nor does it have any bearing on the content of this year.

- ToT parts being placed in instanced content I think is another attempt at getting people to do group play or at least try out new content. It, like ZOS’ FOMO attempts, does not seem like a decision that’s worth the backlash.

colossalvoids · November 2023

BlueRaven wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

I find it interesting that multiple people have said EA replaced a questing DLC and have contested my stance that it replaced dungeon content….

Well, I specifically mentioned dlc questing content because this patch (the second patch after the chapter patch) is normally a questing patch.

There is the endless “dungeon” in this patch, and they did convert world events into a dungeon type content. And there is the trial finder too which opens up a lot of instanced options.
And I believe next patch there will be two new dungeons.

So… yeah it’s not a competition. But, zos has not exactly been ghosting the dungeon crowd.

But... they didn't ghost the questing folks either. This year, we got half the amount of quests and half the amount of dungeons. Both crowds got less content equally. It's not like we got zero quests…..

The “dungeon crowd” lost two dungeons, true. But they GAINED:

- A dungeon style world events.
- The EA “endless dungeon”.
- The trial finder.

Not sure we're sharing this opinion as the world event is a world event still, bearing semblance to a small normal difficulty dungeon isn't doing much for people liking actual full fledged dungeons I'm afraid. Not aware of people booking evening for their team to run BN for two hours straight.

EA is an arena, which overlaps surely with many dungeon enjoyers but those aren't as frequent addition as any other through the game's life to be a nuisance really. Arena folk are the ones ghosted here for years. Both ea and bn have quests associated with them though, technically ticking both boxes for zos (not ticking any in reality for some from both "camps").

Not sure what trial finder does for dungeon people more than any other demographic.

This argument feels a bit disingenuous.

Casual “overland questing” players are not utilizing ANY of these features. So if it’s not for them, who is the closest target audience?

It’s obviously people who utilize instanced content. If you want to parse it and say that dungeon and trial players are not the same, then knock yourself out. Or maybe group finder can be utilized for a WB in Malabol Tor. I would come back and point out that companions are not casual content then as they can be utilized in dungeons and trials.

But we both know who the intended audience is for all that respective additions to the game.

It's really not, but mutual feeling comes because both are using stretches to dress something done for a wide variety of players as something for the one very specific group and it doesn't cut it. It's made for a variety of players, not just vets, casuals, questers or "instanced content utilisers...?".

As a "dungeon crowd" person everything apart from EA is not targeted at me by any stretch, and EA isn't doing anything with my dungeon itch, it's just happened I enjoy solo arenas just as much, unlike many people who doing dungeons and not enjoying any/many solo activities. So I'm not sure how questers were robbed out of something by arena people, who aren't getting content each year multiple times.

Activity finder was a popular ask from a shy "silent majority" to make their life's easier as they're apparently want to do content and not willing to commit for a dm, whisper or organising the group themselves, it's hardly has anything to do with people running dungeons or trials even, as those are doing it the old way as always, nothing changed for them afaik.

BN was their "response to harder overland" (because entrances are located in overland apparently?..) as they've stated and they failed at it with such intentions, as quests are the same boring mess and the world event of normal difficulty doesn't do anything for more hardcore crowd, whilst people from the other side of spectrum can't simply do it on their own without socialising. Even dragons or harrowstorms were better harder overland "answers" compared to it, while not doing anything directly.

CGPsaint · November 2023

peacenote wrote: »

2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute

2022 was a good year to take a break from ESO.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute

2022 was a good year to take a break from ESO.

Funny enough I was thinking that 2024 is looking like the year I'll be playing No Man's Sky much more.

Elsonso · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute

2022 was a good year to take a break from ESO.

Funny enough I was thinking that 2024 is looking like the year I'll be playing No Man's Sky much more.

2024 will be the 10th anniversary. My guess is that it will be better than 2023.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute

2022 was a good year to take a break from ESO.

Funny enough I was thinking that 2024 is looking like the year I'll be playing No Man's Sky much more.

2024 will be the 10th anniversary. My guess is that it will be better than 2023.

Honestly to a player like myself that is not saying much, as this year was a bust. If the roadmap looks like it might interest me, I'll renew my sub, but if not, no regrets. I had high hopes for the EA when I though it would be for everyone, even the lowest casual, but it is just another arena with a different name.

edit: clarity

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

2022: **easily accessible** Tales of Tribute

2022 was a good year to take a break from ESO.

Funny enough I was thinking that 2024 is looking like the year I'll be playing No Man's Sky much more.

2024 will be the 10th anniversary. My guess is that it will be better than 2023.

Honestly to a player like myself that is not saying much, as this year was a bust. If the roadmap looks like it might interest me, I'll renew my sub, but if not, no regrets. I had high hopes for the EA when I though it would be for everyone, even the lowest casual, but it is just another arena with a different name.

edit: clarity

And the rewards are crap and you don't even get very many of them for hours of play.

SeaGtGruff · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

arc 1 is normal mode

arc 4 is considered vet

anything past arc 4 is basically vet hard mode

Arc 1 is overland difficulty at best, and higher Arcs are considerably easier if you get the right Visions. RNG is going to play a huge factor in how far you're able to progress per run.

The comment about "overland difficulty at best" comes across as insulting and dismissive, in light of two basic facts-- (1) vet players are constantly complaining that overland content is too easy and begging for some kind of difficulty setting or slider so they can make overland content more challenging for themselves; and (2) "overland content" is an incredibly broad topic that covers everything from daggerbacks and pony guars to the most difficult world bosses in the game. Even world bosses overall vary considerably in difficulty from one to another, so saying something like "world boss difficulty at best" would beg the obvious question, "WHICH world boss(es)?" Maybe you didn't intend for that comment to come across as insulting and dismissive, but hopefully you see my point. WHICH overland content's difficulty does arc 1 correspond to, exactly? And how does comparing arc 1 to "overland" at all serve a useful purpose in the first place, given the manner in which some vet players tend to throw around the term "overland" to mean something they can burn through without the slightest effort on their part-- I think one description I've seen a few times is that "world bosses fall over dead if you just look at them." Note, I'm not trying to complain about your comment, just trying to help you see how it could come across to some players as a sort of putdown.

Speaking for myself, I don't care whether EA stays as-is forever, gets nerfed, gets buffed, gets savepoints or skips added to it, never gets savepoints or skips added to it, etc. I'll still play it every so often and get as far as I can-- which so far has been up to, but not beyond, the first Tho'at Replicanum, and usually not even beyond the third or fourth cycle boss. When I get killed, I'll leave and go do something else. I've been having fun fighting the mobs and cycle bosses, and I have no burning desire to get any of the new class set gear-- especially not for my Sorc main-- and I'm content to acquire whatever Archival Fortunes I can. Grinding isn't something I've ever been interested in, and rewards have always been secondary to me. Fun is what it's all about for me. I sometimes ride a circuit around Northern Elsweyr and solo all six world bosses, just for fun. Once upon a time I was not able to solo a single one of them, and just avoided them entirely for that reason; but now that I can solo them, I will do so just for the fun of it, regardless of whether I get any good "rewards" from them. Maybe one day I'll be able to get past the first Tho'at Replicanum and reach arc 2-- or maybe not-- but in the meantime I'm not going to grind EA to try to "master" it, or get hung up on my standing on a leaderboard, or complain about how hard or how easy or how unrewarding it is. It's good for a bit of fun, and when I inevitably get killed (usually sooner rather than later) there's still the entire rest of the game waiting for me to have fun in.

Warhawke_80 · November 2023

People need to stop asking for harder content and start asking for dynamic content.

Dynamic content brings challenges beyond the whole "I just do what my spreadsheet tells me to."
Dynamic content is a big tent that has room for all skill levels
Dynamic Content is evergreen, so people won't start screaming how board they are after finishing the uuber hard stuff (which they will)

Other developers, like Intrepid Studios, Blizzard, Square Enix, Pearl Abyss etc are turning to dynamism over rote static questing...the developers that don't are going to be left behind in the dust.

joergino · November 2023

CGPsaint wrote: »

Arc 1 is overland difficulty at best

This is absolutely not true, unless you only consider the nightmare world boss "overland". Is is quite a bit harder than normal dungeons, for example.