spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

I haven't really made up my mind in that regard of boss pool, as I'm waiting to see non-bugged leaderboards. If just getting to Arc 2 is really good enough to get you on the leaderboard, then maybe they're right. When I think about it, a lot of the playerbase avoids dlc dungeons and trials because the real versions are too much for them. It's possible these EA versions are as well.

If I had my way....
I want most of the playerbase to be able to do Arc 1.

I think that good elite players (like the type that can do vma/vvh comfortably) should be able to beat Arc 4.

And I think Arc 5+ is probably something that only duos can do comfortably, although especially talented solo players may be able to as well.

I also want a way to reach later arcs faster so I don't have to care about it. I'd be fine if it meant you don't get leaderboard or quest credit. It's just going to get really old, really fast to want to wait hours to get to the best parts.

I disagree regarding the leaderboards.

To qualiy for them as a duo on pc eu you already have to beat 7.4.3 currently up from 5.3.1 a bit more than a week ago.

Solo leaderboards are entirely another topic, as using a companion disqualifies you from participation (I'd also suggest a separate leaderboard for runs with companions btw.), thus strongly distorting the metrics.

Additionally, while EA is definitely made for either solo or duo experience, the stats of the enemies in there stay the same, regardless of mode. In fact it's the very same EA, only the respective leaderboards are changing. It's expectable and only logical, that duos do far better in there.

I agree tho, that most of the playerbase should be able to do Arc 1. But not without challenge. A beginner should get the very same experience at Arc 1 as more seasoned players get out of higher Arcs.

The interview you paraphrased also shows clearly, that zos is expecting, that interested participants are willing to adjust their builds and tactics to succeed, while most of the complaints around here come from players, which aren't interested in that type of playstyle (That's not an assumption. They said so for themselves several times and refused any help offered.).

Once again, I'm not arguing against adjustments of mechanics, if that is necessary to improve the experience of the average playerbase. It's not necessary to outright delete any bosses from Arc 1 tho, as there are far more subtle ways to achieve this goal.

And of course I entirely oppose the idea of splitting EA into two separate modes difficulty-wise. That's simply nonsensical.

If you reached Arc 2, that means you only cleared Arc 1, right? So something like 2 1 1 making the leaderboard would indicate only a leaderboard level player can beat Arc 1 solo.

I would expect duos to reach further than a solo can, rather it being impossible for a solo even at stage 1. That doesn't sound like solo content.

edit: But I need time and the leaderboards to be fixed before I can use them to have a good idea of where the playerbase is at.

Don't forget, that the solo leaderboards are only listing those players, which did their run entirely without companion. That's almost a forgotten art nowadays.

I agree tho, in a month or two we have a much better picture of the overall performance, if they get the leaderboards fixed. Although I doubt that will be the case unfortunately.

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

That's very different to demanding, that whole bosses should be deleted from the early experience, so I don't have to bother with learning their respective mechanics while I'm on the way to my daily.

Also thanks for the transcription of the central parts of the video posted above. Was very helpful for me.

I haven't really made up my mind in that regard of boss pool, as I'm waiting to see non-bugged leaderboards. If just getting to Arc 2 is really good enough to get you on the leaderboard, then maybe they're right. When I think about it, a lot of the playerbase avoids dlc dungeons and trials because the real versions are too much for them. It's possible these EA versions are as well.

If I had my way....
I want most of the playerbase to be able to do Arc 1.

I think that good elite players (like the type that can do vma/vvh comfortably) should be able to beat Arc 4.

And I think Arc 5+ is probably something that only duos can do comfortably, although especially talented solo players may be able to as well.

I also want a way to reach later arcs faster so I don't have to care about it. I'd be fine if it meant you don't get leaderboard or quest credit. It's just going to get really old, really fast to want to wait hours to get to the best parts.

I disagree regarding the leaderboards.

To qualiy for them as a duo on pc eu you already have to beat 7.4.3 currently up from 5.3.1 a bit more than a week ago.

Solo leaderboards are entirely another topic, as using a companion disqualifies you from participation (I'd also suggest a separate leaderboard for runs with companions btw.), thus strongly distorting the metrics.

Additionally, while EA is definitely made for either solo or duo experience, the stats of the enemies in there stay the same, regardless of mode. In fact it's the very same EA, only the respective leaderboards are changing. It's expectable and only logical, that duos do far better in there.

I agree tho, that most of the playerbase should be able to do Arc 1. But not without challenge. A beginner should get the very same experience at Arc 1 as more seasoned players get out of higher Arcs.

The interview you paraphrased also shows clearly, that zos is expecting, that interested participants are willing to adjust their builds and tactics to succeed, while most of the complaints around here come from players, which aren't interested in that type of playstyle (That's not an assumption. They said so for themselves several times and refused any help offered.).

Once again, I'm not arguing against adjustments of mechanics, if that is necessary to improve the experience of the average playerbase. It's not necessary to outright delete any bosses from Arc 1 tho, as there are far more subtle ways to achieve this goal.

And of course I entirely oppose the idea of splitting EA into two separate modes difficulty-wise. That's simply nonsensical.

If you reached Arc 2, that means you only cleared Arc 1, right? So something like 2 1 1 making the leaderboard would indicate only a leaderboard level player can beat Arc 1 solo.

I would expect duos to reach further than a solo can, rather it being impossible for a solo even at stage 1. That doesn't sound like solo content.

edit: But I need time and the leaderboards to be fixed before I can use them to have a good idea of where the playerbase is at.

Don't forget, that the solo leaderboards are only listing those players, which did their run entirely without companion. That's almost a forgotten art nowadays.

I agree tho, in a month or two we have a much better picture of the overall performance, if they get the leaderboards fixed. Although I doubt that will be the case unfortunately.

Yeah. I had wanted to see where the initial part of console was at by looking at not only the high leaderboard scores, but also the ones that just barely made the leaderboard. I figured maybe the low end would be like arc 3 and the top would be 4-5. But, I saw scores for Arc 1 in there. At first, I thought that was an indication that it was too difficult. But, then I saw it had to be bugged because there was a couple of 0 point scores on the leaderboard. And then I saw a thread saying the leaderboard was deleting scores. So, it's not useful for now, other than a recording your personal progress. And ofc the top scores would most likely still be on the board.

Trier_Sero wrote: »

The farthest I've gone solo so far is 3 4 2. I feel like marauders should be toned down to some degree because even the very first one gave me trouble while the second one was unbeatable. Also I feel like Thoat is little bit too powerful for arc 1.

Tho'at is a mechanic heavy fight. Once you understand the mechs, she becomes significantly easier. The only issue with her is the blobs getting hidden by tentacles, and maybe the aoes she leaves around.

For people struggling.

This game is all about mechanics. Just about every random boss - even the dumb dragons that take up 3/4 of the platform - are quite doable when you know the mechanics.

Most of the some odd 80 rotation bosses are easy. Especially in Arc 1. I don;t know half of them either, but people have uploaded youtube videos with all of their mechanics (even time-stamped), so even the more challenging ones are just a test of mechanics.

When I first fought the main arc boss (Tho'at), I could beat her on Arc 1, but it certainly wasn't easy and Arc 2: wipe, wipe, wipe, where are all these 20K hits coming from?.

Two weeks later. GG EZ. Arc 1, Arc 2, and even now I expect to beat Arc 3 on first try. Tho'at herself has only a few mechanics worthy of note:

• She's in her shield. Don;t damage her at all. The more damage you do, the more 20K projectiles get launched at you. She even says things like, "Let's test your patience."
• Teleport charge. Predictable.
• Regular melee attacks. It's just constant incoming damage because of the glass shards on the floor. Kite inside your grounds DoTs
• Wind-Up jumping attack. It has like a 4 second que. So long I find it too risky to dodge actually, so I just block because if it hits, you're pretty much dead on a DPS build. Really really predictable.

As it turns out, she isn;t the threat.

What is the threat are the little green blobs that spawn in the room. They charge up those 20K attacks that were on your death recap. As soon as they spawn, kill them. They die in seconds. On Arc 1, it's a pretty empty room so they can be easily seen and attacked.

The fight is a bit longish: it can take about 2 minutes to kill her on a good DPS build and maybe 4 for an mediocre one, but it's just repeating these mechanics. As long as you kill the little blobs and pay attention to Tho'at's mechanics, it's quite doable, even for a mediocre build.

In later Arcs, the Tho'at fight get more difficult, not because of her, but because there is a lot of extra noise in the room that makes it more difficult to see and take out the little green blobs. The Atro spawn in Arc 2 is just a useless meat shield that spawns tentacles that get in the way. The manticore in Act 3 is adds a ceiling falling mechanic that is a one-shot. It itself is meh. Falling ceiling and tentacles just distract from the real threat: if there are 4 little green blobs channeling 20K attacks, you're dead no matter how good of a player or build you have.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

No lol. You also do it to highlight important parts of the conversation but okydoke.

It's genuinely bad practice and most style guides will say so. You highlight a few things (relative to the body of the text), not half the response. And I didn't highlight the blue text, don't know why it's like that. If you bold half the response, then it becomes harder to read the whole thing. And it doesn't work as well to highlight what's important. I wanted people to read the entire relevant part of the response to the question that's been discussed repeatedly in this thread. Which is why I mostly put the entire thing down and linked the video alongside a time stamp. This is the last I'll say on the matter.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Ok how can you balance something for both a team and a solo play while being the same content. Having to specifically build for it in solo means it will by default its going to be harder. Thats a no brainer.

Easy. No mechanics that hard require another user (but ones that are easier with two are okay). And no light attacks that require a tank until later stages. Endless Archive has different target audiences depending on the stage. Duos are meant to get further than Solo players, but Solo players are meant to be able to go a good ways if they have the skill and build for it. MOST of the content follows that principle, with the exception really of the marauders.

Now i have never at any point argued that it shouldn’t have some adjustments made (cant remember if it was this thread or another one). I have said that the mechanics for the final boss should be toned down a bit because the difficulty gap is too large. I have said that you should be able to continue if you have to leave while still having threads but lose leaderboard score. I have said i believe bosses for earlier arc should be more curated. I have also suggested having 1 additional thread in arc 1. What i cant get on board with is nerfing it to overland difficulty. It should still retain some challange and i am firm on that belief.

As i said go watch the interview between skinny and matt they discuss the difficulty.

Vet Vateshran Hallows is solo content. Maelstrom Arena is solo content. Solo =/= overland. This list frankly supports more nerfs than I do.

I am open to nerfing it to overland level being necessary if their completion ratios tell them that most of the playerbase can't even do Arc 1, but I am skeptical that is necessary and don't currently support that.

@spartaxoxo @boi_anachronism_ - the fact that you two are arguing whether EA is primarily balanced for duo and/or solo tells me that it can be fun and work for both

The key is the ramping difficulty level across stages and arcs. Smart, really - instead of trying to balance fixed content to a broad range of players, they reversed it and let players find their own balance against an open-ended range of content - whether you're solo or duo, experienced or new, going as-is or with optimized builds, you will find the right level by design.

Ph1p wrote: »

The key is the ramping difficulty level across stages and arcs. Smart, really - instead of trying to balance fixed content to a broad range of players, they reversed it and let players find their own balance against an open-ended range of content - whether you're solo or duo, experienced or new, going as-is or with optimized builds, you will find the right level by design.

Yup. It's a great addition to the game that will continuously push players forward and let them test their builds. I really like how it was done. For myself personally, I'd only make a couple of minor adjustments.

I think the difficulty is more or less ok in the first arc but it does scale up too fast, I mean it's supposed to be endless right, so if most players can't get through the first arc what's the point? Personally I've gotten to arc 4 on my own (with Mirri as a healer) and had to lose some DPS to slot heals and resists, but I believe I am a long way above the average player having played on and off since closed beta, the average who struggles with overland hasn't got a prayer of getting very far in this "endless" archive. The rewards are also a bit stingy imo. but, overall it's a great addition, just needs a little tweak here and there.

SilverBride wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

I'm curious for the folks in here asking for the adjustment in difficulties, are you making any adjustments to your gear sets/skills or going into the Archive as you are?

I've tried 4 different characters each with a different build. I breeze through Arc 1 on all of them until the final boss.

This boss is way too difficult for Arc 1. The Arcs increase in difficulty as we advance through them. If the very first final boss is that much more difficult than the rest of the Arc then how will an average player be able to advance very far at all?

I know I'll never get nearly as far as others because I won't sit for more than a couple of hours at the most. But I'd like to be able to enjoy more than 1 Arc.

ive used at least 5 characters in the archive and never had a problem through entirety of arc 1

2 of the characters are tanks, and while the arc 1 tho'at is a slog sometimes depending on verses i never really had a problem with incoming dmg

2 of the characters are almost pure dps, they would have to play a bit more defensively and could burn the boss down a lot faster, but with a heal or 2 had no issues

1 character is one i use more specifically for solo arenas and such, so a combination of tanky+dps, i had to lose some dmg because the warden bear would die, i had to change him some to be a little more tanky for the archive in order to get further in (and by further in soloing past arc 4 lol)

spartaxoxo wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

No lol. You also do it to highlight important parts of the conversation but okydoke.

It's genuinely bad practice and most style guides will say so. You highlight a few things (relative to the body of the text), not half the response. And I didn't highlight the blue text, don't know why it's like that. If you bold half the response, then it becomes harder to read the whole thing. And it doesn't work as well to highlight what's important. I wanted people to read the entire relevant part of the response to the question that's been discussed repeatedly in this thread. Which is why I mostly put the entire thing down and linked the video alongside a time stamp. This is the last I'll say on the matter.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Ok how can you balance something for both a team and a solo play while being the same content. Having to specifically build for it in solo means it will by default its going to be harder. Thats a no brainer.

Easy. No mechanics that hard require another user (but ones that are easier with two are okay). And no light attacks that require a tank until later stages. Endless Archive has different target audiences depending on the stage. Duos are meant to get further than Solo players, but Solo players are meant to be able to go a good ways if they have the skill and build for it. MOST of the content follows that principle, with the exception really of the marauders.

Now i have never at any point argued that it shouldn’t have some adjustments made (cant remember if it was this thread or another one). I have said that the mechanics for the final boss should be toned down a bit because the difficulty gap is too large. I have said that you should be able to continue if you have to leave while still having threads but lose leaderboard score. I have said i believe bosses for earlier arc should be more curated. I have also suggested having 1 additional thread in arc 1. What i cant get on board with is nerfing it to overland difficulty. It should still retain some challange and i am firm on that belief.

As i said go watch the interview between skinny and matt they discuss the difficulty.

Vet Vateshran Hallows is solo content. Maelstrom Arena is solo content. Solo =/= overland. This list frankly supports more nerfs than I do.

I am open to nerfing it to overland level being necessary if their completion ratios tell them that most of the playerbase can't even do Arc 1, but I am skeptical that is necessary and don't currently support that.

I frankly dont care if you respond or not it was the most relevant part based on the argument. Full stop. You only highlighted things that supported your argument which is completely disingenuous. Thank you kindly for the grammer lesson, i was taught by my gran who was an english teacher for 25 years. If thats been updated i couldn't care less. It was the breath of the entire point that was made and would have been completely ignored all together if not highlighted. Oh and one final thing: this has absolutely no bearing on the actual topic or argument at aand so go ahead and stick to it instead of changing the subject to something completely irrelevant.

"Easy. No mechanics that hard require another user (but ones that are easier with two are okay). And no light attacks that require a tank until later stages"

This is a much larger nerf. You are talking about basic mechanic throughout the entire stage, i am suggesting thing that will help players so they may actually progress without taking away the element of any semblance challange. Nothing in the first arc requires another second person for an average player except the final boss and some of the cycle bosses which i already said i supported a little curation for. The trash packs are the equivalent of delve mobs. They do not require another player or light attacks. You can literally spam one skill and kill them.

Never once did i say anything about vet arenas. Normal also recieved a nerf. Overland difficulty is directed at solo players who largely want to quest and do not want to deal with grouping. This is the main reason there were such outcries over things like bastion and more difficult world bosses being introduced. This has been in countless threads on the forums.

Edit: found the vid. Chapter preview from jan- Rich : "How does an endless dungeon with a buddy sound?"

SilverBride wrote: »

All classes should be able to complete Arc 1. It's the starting Arc and is supposed to be the least difficult and should not be dependent on being a tank or healer etc. to get past a final boss that is disproportionately difficult by comparison with the rest of the Arc.

In fact none of the Arcs should be dependent on being a specific class. It should be doable by all.

i can get up to at least arc 3 with a pure dps, but i still have heals slotted

it already is possible to get through arc 1 with any class, and any spec (tank, healer, dps), and there are some people clearing arc 1 with characters under lvl 50 (i probably could but dont have any lowbie characters to do that right now)

the difficulty of arc 1 is pretty much on par with normal vateshran arena

SilverBride wrote: »

All classes should be able to complete Arc 1. It's the starting Arc and is supposed to be the least difficult and should not be dependent on being a tank or healer etc. to get past a final boss that is disproportionately difficult by comparison with the rest of the Arc.

In fact none of the Arcs should be dependent on being a specific class. It should be doable by all.

The main issue with the final fight is that the blobs can be hidden by the tentacles. Some classes can better deal with that than others but it shouldn't be a thing.

Edit: The blobs on the ground are the thing I think they will probably be in most people's death recaps.

Block the sword and don't attack the mirrors are on par with the rest of the arc.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

All classes should be able to complete Arc 1. It's the starting Arc and is supposed to be the least difficult and should not be dependent on being a tank or healer etc. to get past a final boss that is disproportionately difficult by comparison with the rest of the Arc.

In fact none of the Arcs should be dependent on being a specific class. It should be doable by all.

The main issue with the final fight is that the blobs can be hidden by the tentacles. Some classes can better deal with that than others but it shouldn't be a thing.

if its arc 1 there are no tentacles, no obstacles besides tho'at itself

i usually counter the blobs on my warden with crystallized slab, it blocks their projectile, sends a return projectile which stuns them and causes them to stop channeling

Ah you're right. The tentacles are arc 2. I have to kill them on my sorc, and they are hard to target sometimes on later arcs.

the problem i think with EA is that you can't play how you want in it, at least as a solo.

I have sorcerer setup in different builds.
stam with daggers.
stam with bow.
magica staves
oaken heavy.

i can beat arc 1 on all, but what i notice is without focusing on having ward up, death can happen much easier.
The winner by far is oaken heavy since you can have the shield uptime like 90% or more. it makes the last boss pretty easy by just keeping shield up and surge for heals, and sus , wall and heavy attack. Even arc 2 end is pretty simple with the shield up.

i have been to arc 3.4.1 with it the oaken heavy.

i have been to arc 2 something with the other builds but the time spent healing and skills makes keeping a shield up impossible.

basically, EA was not meant for DPS focused players unless you are some god who can keep heal and shield up and still weave in 5 skills.

That's my take on EA.

Galeriano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

For anyone having troubles with finishing arc 1-4. Just create a tanky setup. Seriously that's really all there is to it. Build up around 40k HP and 30k+ resistances and You will not die to almost anything. Enchantments, status effects and offensive visions will carry the dmg. You don't need extra damage to complete endless archive You need survivability. It's basically what everyone who reached arc 7+ is doing already. It's also really usefull to buy upgrade that empower visions and optionally one that empowers versses. Your defense should come mainly from Your setup and offense from visions and verses.

It may sound harsh but if someone is incapable of finishing even arc 1 the fault for that is completly on that person's side mainly because that person didn't create a suitable setup and is lacking skill to compensate for that.

I can't speak to other classes, but I managed fine on my sorc (yes I used Oakensoul) with a damage shield running a lot. I also swapped out my Slimecraw monster helm for Mighty Chudan. The only thing that melted me too fast to reasonably react is the marauder. I don't think a single add that can spawn as early as arc 2 should be so extreme that it requires a tank. I feel like it would be unbearably slow if I had shed more damage, TBH. And honestly, being able to target prioritize adds I knew to be especially dangerous and get rid of them before they caused a ton of problems was important.

That is the whole point of the marauders. They are put there to shake things up, otherwqise EA trash fights would be very boring and repeatable. Arc 2 marauders doesn't require yet a full tank it just requires some level of tankiness and learning how to deal with them although making a more sturdy character makes things way easier since You can make a setup that marauder won;t be able to even scratch.

Also belive me it really won't be that slow if You go for a tank setup. I mean in later arcs it will become slower but that because even trash mobs will have close to 2M health but You will be still be doing relatively high numbers. Thing with EA is that offensive visions are way stronger than defensive ones which is why You want to build a tanky setup and gain offense through visions. Even in a full tank setup I was able to get 100-200k DPS on bosses. It's just a matter of proper setup and knowing the priorities when it comes to choosing visions.

People need to stop treating EA like another dungeon or arena where things can be easily burned through on a full DD setup. it's not that type of content. If You want to be succesfull there You need to chance Your mindset and stop following old comfortable rules. If You refuse to build properly You will be failing and it's completly Your fault.

wish people would say visions are the key. they are only good if you actually get good ones ! i rarely get the good ones.