Dear devs: do you realise that your content beta testers are not you average player? I beg you read

Recent · November 2023

Most game testers are above average or even gifted. When you have players testing yoir content that are streamers and also on usa servers witb the best ping ever...yea great content creators cos they are above average then please i beg you...take into consideration that most of us paying and playing your game are either average players or below average but we all want to feel like heros in our favourite game...not like losers..frustrated all the time.
I get it that there is this belief that we all want to strive to be the best so putting out hard content will get players all fired up and working towards beating this hard ass content but most players cannot so you are essentially frustrating you bigger game pool of players.
Just make it average to good player friendly...not for the few elite player ...i beg.
I honestly had started to believe that yall had caught up with the fact that most of your customers are not elite. Please i beg make eso online more like TES again...for all of us. Please zos.
Ive been playing eso since launch i know what im saying...i love eso so much.
Endless archive is called an Arena by xynode...a streamer ...to us average players it was meant to be an endless dungeon not another arena.also you have yet again aimed to please the above average player base which btw is not as huge as your average player base.,why?

Help @ZOS_RichLambert
I know eso is your baby ...we love your baby and have seen him grow..pls listen to us
Thank you with much ❤

Danikat · November 2023

ZOS does not choose beta testers, the PTS is open to all PC players so anyone who wants to can try out balance changes, new releases etc. and give feedback. If you think there's a problem with too many "elite" testers and you play on PC the best thing you can do is start using the PTS and sharing your own feedback and encourage other people you consider to be of an acceptable skill level to do the same.

If you're not on PC then maybe try to find people who are and encourage them to use it?

Personally though I gave up on using the PTS for testing or posting feedback because more often than not all the feedback, from all types of players, was ignored. I find playtesting fun, but I don't want to spend my time trying something out, documenting what I liked and didn't like, what confused me or got me stuck, bugs I spotted, suggested balance changes etc. if the end result is that absolutely nothing changes and the live release is identical to what went on the PTS. That's a complete waste of time which could be better spent somewhere it will actually achieve something.

Vrelanier · November 2023

Almost everything in ESO is catered to the non "above average" player though.

I get that it's frustrating and sad to miss out on new content one time one year because the marketing was bad, but in the bigger picture, pretty much the whole game is still there, waiting for the non "above average" players, and the next content will surely be for the non "above average" players again.

Let the above averages have their EA arc '23's, and have it mean something in the long run, for once.

Kisakee · November 2023

Stop asking to wash harder content down to the point where a baby can play it while being afk.

You dislike harder content because not everyone can play it to the extend. I dislike soft content because everyone can play it without even thinking about it. Who can even tell that the majority of players is casual, maybe it's the other way around.

So your point is as valid as mine and from me it's a big old NO.

Tra_Lalan · November 2023

So long story short you feel that EA is too hard.
I can only advise you one thing: ask a friend to join you in the adventure.
Doing it duo is much more easy than solo or with companion. It feels that it is designed for a duo so don't get frustrated when you can't handle some stuff solo.

Also keep in mind that there are many other players that feel frustrated with the trivial overland difficulty in ESO (184 pages on this thread already) so let them have at least some places they can have more fun with the game.

Grizzbeorn · November 2023

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

ZhuJiuyin · November 2023

I guess some people think EA is difficult. Part of the reason is that there are still many bugs and imbalances in EA. For example, pets will die immediately in AOE, and some boss mechanisms are not adjusted according to the venue (such as dragons).

To be honest, EA isn't particularly difficult, I've successfully completed 5-0-0 and got the achievement, and I'm using sorc without a pet. (But I have to say, the experience was very bad)

tomfant · November 2023

Honestly, I don't get your point OP. The first arc has been toned down significiantly during the PTS cycle, based on the feedback provided by the testers you claim to be elitists.

This first arc is now so easy to complete, there is no need to further dumb it down. Difficulty scaling in the following arcs is also fine, just the marauders are a little bit too strong.

Danikat · November 2023

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I guess some people think EA is difficult. Part of the reason is that there are still many bugs and imbalances in EA. For example, pets will die immediately in AOE, and some boss mechanisms are not adjusted according to the venue (such as dragons).

To be honest, EA isn't particularly difficult, I've successfully completed 5-0-0 and got the achievement, and I'm using sorc without a pet. (But I have to say, the experience was very bad)

I haven't actually tried EA yet (not something that interest me) but how difficult something is often depends on the player, and their build, as much as the enemy design.

I once inadvertently started a massive argument in guild chat because I said I was having trouble with a boss in Maelstrom Arena (which turned out to be due to too much DPS, meaning it was moving through phases too quickly and I was ignoring the adds and other mechanics, trying to focus only on getting the boss down quickly). Some people tried to give me constructive advice (which is how I found out what I was doing wrong) but other people got into a huge circular debate about whether or not it's easy. And that's just within one social guild, where many people regularly play together and know there's different levels of skill and experience and different expectations.

In my case it was pretty much a skill and perception issue - I hadn't expected something in an ESO solo area to have mechanics beyond 'don't stand in the AoE, dodge the big attacks and burn the boss down in between' and that had worked for all the previous bosses so I kept trying to do it again and didn't realise they actually made the fights more interesting after a few rounds. Someone who had done trials (and possibly vet DLC dungeons?) would probably have expected that.

Elsonso · November 2023

Danikat wrote: »

Personally though I gave up on using the PTS for testing or posting feedback because more often than not all the feedback, from all types of players, was ignored. I find playtesting fun, but I don't want to spend my time trying something out, documenting what I liked and didn't like, what confused me or got me stuck, bugs I spotted, suggested balance changes etc. if the end result is that absolutely nothing changes and the live release is identical to what went on the PTS. That's a complete waste of time which could be better spent somewhere it will actually achieve something.

Same here. The aggregated responses will dilute a lot of suggestions, and PTS is literally the weeks just before launch. It is so late in the development cycle that suggestions for major changes feel pointless. I also think that feedback and playtime loses importance with every day that the PTS is available. First couple days have the largest impact and the last day has the least, and I don't think it is linear. If I can't get PTS done in during the first week, I usually don't bother.

However, it is excellent for addon testing.

I don't think that Endless Archive was ready for the "Average Player" during PTS, and that does not seem to have changed. The "non-Average Player" may find it too easy, which is sad if the "Average Player" finds it too hard. There is apparently a comparatively narrow group in the middle that is in Archive heaven while everyone else complains that it is too hard or too easy.

Braffin · November 2023

@Elsonso

Care to elaborate your thinking regarding EA?

As far as sources are available the feedback of players (here in forums as well as other media and in-game) is overwhelmingly positive overall. I see a lot of people, which call themselves casual, enjoying EA very much.

Do you have other sources at your hands? If yes, which ones?

I'd also like to ask you about your personal experiences with EA: Did you already try? How far did you go? Which bosses did you get? What parts do you consider well done and what was difficult for you?

I'm sure your opinion about EA and how the "average player" is doing in there isn't solely based on thin air. Unfortunately due to missing details in your post it comes exactly that way.

Ph1p · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

There is apparently a comparatively narrow group in the middle that is in Archive heaven while everyone else complains that it is too hard or too easy.

I would expect ESO to look at actual EA statistics after a few weeks (incl. on console) to evaluate its difficulty. How many people get how far? How much does it correlate with certain builds or CP level? What do they get stuck on? Do they end the run with threads intact or all gone?

Qualitative feedback on this forum can be helpful, but the majority will always be from people who have an issue with it. With this bias, it’s impossible to say what the majority of players actually experience.

centime · November 2023

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

HARD Disagree. EA does NOT need to be watered-down.
And this game is NOT designed to cater to mostly above-average-skill players.
If it were, they would not be able to entice more casual players, who are the larger part of the MMO target audience, into buying the game.
And Marketing is always going to go after the larger part of an audience, because Mo' Money.

I agree, Grizzbeorn. Not every activity needs to be easy for every level of player. I am an okay player, not great, with much room for improvement if I wish to enjoy content that is too difficult for me right now. For me to ask that the aforementioned content be dumbed down would be entirely wrong. Rather, it is up to me to learn how to gear and otherwise equip myself so that I am better able to play (relatively) harder content. There is plenty in the game that is easy; let better players have their long overdue, more challenging content.

Elsonso · November 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

There is apparently a comparatively narrow group in the middle that is in Archive heaven while everyone else complains that it is too hard or too easy.

I would expect ESO to look at actual EA statistics after a few weeks (incl. on console) to evaluate its difficulty. How many people get how far? How much does it correlate with certain builds or CP level? What do they get stuck on? Do they end the run with threads intact or all gone?

Qualitative feedback on this forum can be helpful, but the majority will always be from people who have an issue with it. With this bias, it’s impossible to say what the majority of players actually experience.

I am fairly certain that the metrics they get from people actually playing content eclipses the "too hard" and "too easy" comments.

Braffin · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

There is apparently a comparatively narrow group in the middle that is in Archive heaven while everyone else complains that it is too hard or too easy.

I would expect ESO to look at actual EA statistics after a few weeks (incl. on console) to evaluate its difficulty. How many people get how far? How much does it correlate with certain builds or CP level? What do they get stuck on? Do they end the run with threads intact or all gone?

Qualitative feedback on this forum can be helpful, but the majority will always be from people who have an issue with it. With this bias, it’s impossible to say what the majority of players actually experience.

I am fairly certain that the metrics they get from people actually playing content eclipses the "too hard" and "too easy" comments.

Yes, metrics are surely the most important factor in making decisions.

I for myself am quite certain, that feedback from players, which actually played the content they are talking about is far more important for zos than general assumptions from people which couldn't yet be bothered with making their own experiences.

Amottica · November 2023

Danikat wrote: »

ZOS does not choose beta testers, the PTS is open to all PC players so anyone who wants to can try out balance changes, new releases etc. and give feedback. If you think there's a problem with too many "elite" testers and you play on PC the best thing you can do is start using the PTS and sharing your own feedback and encourage other people you consider to be of an acceptable skill level to do the same.

This is correct. I know players at various skill levels who try out new content and changes on the PTS. It is far from just the top players and gifted players.

Jaimeh · November 2023

I also echo the sentiments of most comments here that the EA difficulty is fine and that the overwhelming majority of the game is for casual playstyles, so having the option to try for something more challenging is great. We haven't had such exciting and engaging content since BRP years ago, but in contrast we've had plenty of easier content, so why aren't you seeing the discrepancy in that? Also, I wish you would provide more details exactly where you have issues, because like people have said, arc 1 can be very easily and swiftly completed, on the most basic builds and relaxed playstyles. Even if you can't go further on your own, you can easily do that with a duo. If this content is not for you, that's fine, but just because of that, don't urge the devs to change something that has (going by the pulse in the forums, YT and discord) has made so many players excited about the game again.

CameraBeardThePirate · November 2023

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

CGPsaint · November 2023

Xbox/NA here, so I've only had a day to give EA a whirl, but I do have some early thoughts.

1.) Marauder Gothmau is HIGHLY over-tuned, especially in the early arcs (3-5), and since we built for straight damage in those arcs, we both pretty much got insta-killed.

2.) On our second run we had just finished the second wave of enemies and then no more enemies spawned. Then out of nowhere it said that we had last a thread, and it restarted the stage. Neither one of us died, so this was a fun bug.

3.) The Visions/Verses are definitely going to be the usual RNG that we've come to expect from ESO, and will make or break your run.

I like EA more than I thought that I would, but also don't see myself wanting to spend 3-4 hours at a time running it. It would be nice to have a save feature for people who don't care about leaderboards.

peacenote · November 2023

Hard disagree with the OP.

Almost all of the content in the game caters to average or newer players without requiring elite fighting skills. And that's ok! While I enjoy end game I like relaxing content as well. Plus, most content geared towards above average players has a version of it which can be enjoyed by average players. This, therefore, is the opposite of the OP's assessment. I will not list everything but here are some examples.

Content with low barrier to entry (can easily solo):

Questing, stories, and overland mobs/areas (the bulk of the game)
Delves
Antiquities
Tales of Tribute
Normal Solo Arenas (needs at least a little skill/experience to complete, though)
Housing
Crafting and Fishing
Thieves Guild Heists and Dark Brotherhood Sacraments, stealing from and murdering NPCs in general
Unlocking Companions and leveling their skills, rapport, and stories
Most event content (Jester's Festival, New Life Festival, etc.)

Content with low barrier to entry (may need a group but everyone can be average in the group):

World Bosses
Incursions (Anchors and such)
Normal dungeons
Normal trials
Normal group arenas
All PvP but especially Cyrodiil (You can wear very basic gear to join a zone group and capture things, help with siege, etc.)
Older vet dungeons
Specialized "group" content like the Crow or Bastion Nymic

Content requiring "better than average" skills for all player participants to consistently succeed:

Vet DLC Dungeons
Vet Trials
Vet Group Arenas and Solo Arenas
... and now Endless Archive, which, let's all remember, replaced a vet DLC dungeon release, and so logically should fall into this category
Some aspects of PvP

Then there is content that can be leveraged regardless of which category you are in.... like seeking achievements or enjoying different classes, being a vampire or werewolf, unlocking the Psjiic Order skills, etc. Yes, some of those vampire skills may be leveraged by score pushers but you can bop around doing the story content as a vampire, too!

If you combine the first two lists together it's blatantly obvious that the game is not catered towards above average players in any way. And given where the majority of the development focus is, I continue to be glad that ESO still does provide "end game" content. I was pleasantly surprised with the Endless Archive, which I expected to be more boring because I thought it might be geared towards players who really need Companions. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but personally wouldn't present a challenge for me or hold my interest for very long as "endless" content.

Lykeion · November 2023

The difficulty of arc 1 has been downgraded during the PTS, and for simple gear collection, farm arc 1 is more than enough. You can easily pass arc 1 with any mainstream build, like oakensorc and hold left click. You don't need to be an "above average" player to do that

Elsonso · November 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Braffin · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

You surely didn't try EA for yourself, if you think a player has to be in "end-game range" (whatever is meant by that) to successfully finish Arc 1 consistently.

I encourage you to give EA a try for yourself and report about your experiences here, after you've done that.

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

What i see consistently from players who have a tough time in arc 1 is that they do not build for the content. You cant go in for solo play and expect to clear with your glass cannon dungeon build. You dont have supports. You are tank, dps, and healer. You must build for that to be successful. You can choose one heavy set and one damage set for example. Slot heals, slots shields, a breach and slot an aoe attack. You will be fine. My first attempt at EA i was in a glass cannon build as well just to test it out and see. It was quite challenging and im a high level player. I swapped to a solo build and it was a breeze. I wouldn't expect it to be a brainless run for a new player with a decent setup but it will still be a pretty easy clear. Do yourself a favor and think about what you would need if you were attempting to solo a dungeon. Understand that solo is essentially meant to be hard difficulty relative to the content just like soloing a dungeon. Take a friend if you don't feel the need for that challange.

The overwhelming majority of content is designed to be causual. Think of the main story, is the final boss difficult in an way? Are any of the stories for chapters? Truly, think about it. Thats most of the content. The vast majority of it is quests, delves, and overland which is ridiculously easy for folks at an average level. Base game dolmens i could solo at level 6 when i was brand new to the game having never played an mmo in my life. People seem to forget that. Above average players to good get dlc dungeons, trials, and arenas. End game gets hardmode dlc dungeons, and trials. Thats about it.

CameraBeardThePirate · November 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Is it really though? Every expansion adds a faceroll-easy questline. Every dungeon DLC still has normal modes which can usually be soloed in a half decent build, or easily completed with a group. None of the normal versions of the DLC content is particularly hard to clear so long as you're breaking 20k dps, which can be accomplished with an hour of practice tops.

Yes, all of the dlc dungeons are difficult on vet - but that's the point of vet. They can all still be completed by "casuals" on normal. EA is the same - the first Arc is on-par with normal base-game content. Far from catering to "elites".

ZOS_Volpe · November 2023

Greetings,

As we've removed a few comments that were baiting and bashing, this is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Community Rules to avoid thread derailment.

Thanks for your understanding.

Freelancer_ESO · November 2023

Recent wrote: »

Most game testers are above average or even gifted. When you have players testing yoir content that are streamers and also on usa servers witb the best ping ever...yea great content creators cos they are above average then please i beg you...take into consideration that most of us paying and playing your game are either average players or below average but we all want to feel like heros in our favourite game...not like losers..frustrated all the time.
I get it that there is this belief that we all want to strive to be the best so putting out hard content will get players all fired up and working towards beating this hard ass content but most players cannot so you are essentially frustrating you bigger game pool of players.
Just make it average to good player friendly...not for the few elite player ...i beg.
I honestly had started to believe that yall had caught up with the fact that most of your customers are not elite. Please i beg make eso online more like TES again...for all of us. Please zos.
Ive been playing eso since launch i know what im saying...i love eso so much.
Endless archive is called an Arena by xynode...a streamer ...to us average players it was meant to be an endless dungeon not another arena.also you have yet again aimed to please the above average player base which btw is not as huge as your average player base.,why?

Help @ZOS_RichLambert
I know eso is your baby ...we love your baby and have seen him grow..pls listen to us
Thank you with much ❤

If you haven't already seen it, here's a relatively long interview regarding the archive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ily2xhGU6HA

I would not hold out hope for significant changes.

The archive isn't the way it is because it was rushed or because they listened to primarily feedback from elite current players.

It's the way it is because that's what the developers wanted.

Plus, at this point it's probably already too late to be worth bothering with as by the time you'd actually have any significant changes implemented the players will have either adapted, quit doing it, or lost interest in even considering doing it.

Finally, I'd argue that the Endless Archive's design fundamentally diminishes the world from a story perspective as the choice to copy npcs can diminish them as characters as well as potentially spoil story elements.

Tandor · November 2023

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Is it really though? Every expansion adds a faceroll-easy questline. Every dungeon DLC still has normal modes which can usually be soloed in a half decent build, or easily completed with a group. None of the normal versions of the DLC content is particularly hard to clear so long as you're breaking 20k dps, which can be accomplished with an hour of practice tops.

Yes, all of the dlc dungeons are difficult on vet - but that's the point of vet. They can all still be completed by "casuals" on normal. EA is the same - the first Arc is on-par with normal base-game content. Far from catering to "elites".

Unfortunately, that point is rather defeated by the name of the content. "Endless" implies rather more than "the first Arc".

Elsonso · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Claiming that the game caters to elite players is... certainly a take.

90% of the games content is overland. Every single overland zone, barring the one "endgame" zone Craglorn, is so laughably easy that even wearing a gear set will trivialize the content. Make no mistake - 90% of the content in this game is geared to casuals.

I don't think it is the case for added content, which seems to be biased towards mid-game and end-game players, the latter of which tend to be where the "elite" reside.

I don't believe that Endless Archive is for the "elites", as this is an applied term rather than a descriptive one, but it is for the mid and end-game players for DUO play and in the end-game range for SOLO play.

Is it really though? Every expansion adds a faceroll-easy questline. Every dungeon DLC still has normal modes which can usually be soloed in a half decent build, or easily completed with a group. None of the normal versions of the DLC content is particularly hard to clear so long as you're breaking 20k dps, which can be accomplished with an hour of practice tops.

Yes, all of the dlc dungeons are difficult on vet - but that's the point of vet. They can all still be completed by "casuals" on normal. EA is the same - the first Arc is on-par with normal base-game content. Far from catering to "elites".

Unfortunately, that point is rather defeated by the name of the content. "Endless" implies rather more than "the first Arc".

Yes, but there is a daily quest associated with the Endless Archive that gives it an ending.

MidniteOwl1913 · November 2023

Lykeion wrote: »

The difficulty of arc 1 has been downgraded during the PTS, and for simple gear collection, farm arc 1 is more than enough. You can easily pass arc 1 with any mainstream build, like oakensorc and hold left click. You don't need to be an "above average" player to do that

I thought I was average, I guess not. The first time though I got the fire dragon as the 3 third boss and that was it, run over. Finishing an arc takes a big chunk of time that has to be done all at once. Having to do it multiple times just to finish the daily isn't an average player-friendly game. The first arc, just the first arc needs to be something the average player can finish.

notyuu · November 2023

Now here's the thing

If the content was easy then you would touch it 1-2 times until you have had your fill and then move on when you get afflicted with the debuff known as "major bordorm" only to get dragged back in again to force yourself though the tedious slog of monotonous slapping mobs down to aquire the style pages when they drop or whatever

If the content was hard then you could take your failure to conquer it as a challange to overcome, a chance to expand your skill and knowledge as a player, to become better as it were, which inturn extends your playtime and engagement with said content, which while fading with time due to your improving skill would still be lingering around when it comes time to get something from there

So tell me, which one sounds more fun in the long run?