Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

Braffin · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

They are also the folks who build guilds around teaching people from complete newbie to great player. Im in many. They work with folks from the super basic normals through trifecta. I got one where we are going to start picking a random newbie once a week out of craglorn to get them skinned just to get the experience of the mechanics, see how we play and where they can get, and to help to start rebuilding that community. Most of us actually want folks to get into more content, our community, especially endgame is tiny. For my server the overlap in my teams and guilds in massive. Roughly 80%.. We were largely happy about ha builds because more folks were included, you have to remember that the forum elites do not represent the majority.

If we assume that veterans self-sacrificingly take care of the "newbies", then that should also mean here in the forum people should support the participation of beginners and don't come with arguments like "then it's just not for you" or " "you just have to get better or it's your problem." A good teacher wants to arouse the interest of the student and potential future "colleague" and not stomp it into the ground through demotivation. Hence, I still believe that arc 1 should be easier so that everyone can get a "taste" and become interested in more. If people are already being turned off by arc 1, then it's doing the complete opposite.

So tell me: How many people you've seen asking for advice in this thread?

Why anybody should ask in this thread for advice? I thought they can find advice under the category https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/players-helping-players

This thread is still discussing the difficulty of EA.

I'll ask directly: Do you want any help regarding your build or do you have any questions about boss mechanics, which we can answer to make your time in EA more enjoyable?

boi_anachronism_ · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

They are also the folks who build guilds around teaching people from complete newbie to great player. Im in many. They work with folks from the super basic normals through trifecta. I got one where we are going to start picking a random newbie once a week out of craglorn to get them skinned just to get the experience of the mechanics, see how we play and where they can get, and to help to start rebuilding that community. Most of us actually want folks to get into more content, our community, especially endgame is tiny. For my server the overlap in my teams and guilds in massive. Roughly 80%.. We were largely happy about ha builds because more folks were included, you have to remember that the forum elites do not represent the majority.

If we assume that veterans self-sacrificingly take care of the "newbies", then that should also mean here in the forum people should support the participation of beginners and don't come with arguments like "then it's just not for you" or " "you just have to get better or it's your problem." A good teacher wants to arouse the interest of the student and potential future "colleague" and not stomp it into the ground through demotivation. Hence, I still believe that arc 1 should be easier so that everyone can get a "taste" and become interested in more. If people are already being turned off by arc 1, then it's doing the complete opposite.

Id encourage you to look through my comments. At no point did i say it shouldnt be accessible. What i did say is that the necessity of basic mechanics like blocking or rolling should not be removed. This is something that is even required to beat some public dungeon bosses. I had someone contend that they are not required for most vet content. They are and gave examples, they also stated that no gear change should be required, obviously needs are different for solo content and gettig all buff would make supports obsolete. I gave examples of things to try in an earlier post. I said that i do not expect folks to be at my level and that you start somewhere and that it is possible for the majority to get good if they felt inclined and that i have seen and experienced this myself as well as with those who most wouldnt think were capable because of age or physical limitations. those very basic can be done by the majority and that i deaI with similar physical issues to some of those posting here as do many of my friends. I said its fine if you dont aspire to be at a high level and to play how you enjoy. I stated on another post that a save mech similar to maelstrom would be a good addition. I also said i dont believe it should be nerfed before console has the opportunity to try it out.

Im not sure how that could be considered elitism. As i plainly stated the forums do not represent the majority of end game players by a mile so i not sure why your argument is that every vet player will feel this way because a few on the forums are like this, judging a whole group of people by a fraction of a fraction is pretty unfair.There are outliers in every community. I dont know a single person in any of my guilds who comes to the forums because they generally consider it too toxic. This was never about being self sacrificing. Just a genuine want for our community to expand.

Sarannah · November 2023

Kisakee wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

As someone suggested above, I wouldn't want fewer cycles. Fewer cycles just means we'd get the horrible arc boss more often, and that we'd have to re-start the EA more often, while getting less currency per run. Also fewer chances for an unknown and fewer chances for treasure scamps.

Kisakee wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Also disagree with the saving points, as that would mean some players are able to farm the new currency much much faster. Which would be unfair.

I'm just one achievement away from getting the last upgrade for 30k and am currently sitting on 85k, currency isn't an issue at all. If anything a manual checkpoint or save would need to deactivate leaderboard to make it fair.

For you maybe. I was just glad I got 20k+ of the currency and was able to buy the style and lead. As I can do arc 2 tops, due to being unable to beat the second arc's boss. Meaning there isn't much currency gained for me. So yes, it would be unfair to have safepoints.

Besides unfair, it would also diminish the entire point/thought behind the endless archive. Which is going in and seeing how far you can go in that run. Safepoints would take that away.

It sounds like you misunderstood what's meant with a checkpoint: It just enables people to go back in where they left due to time restrains. It's not that you can reload from there as much as you want if you lose all your lifes. The checkpoint would disappear after all lives are used and you would need to start from scratch like everyone else.

Ah! In that case it shouldn't be a problem. Restarting at a certain higher arc would be. Though a checkpoint would mean ZOS would have to save everyone's 'random' bosses. Otherwise players would log off when they encountered a tough boss, and relogged later to go to the checkpoint to find an easier 'random' boss there.

DUTCH_REAPER · November 2023

Here is a video of how we defeated ARC 5 tho'at
GLOBS are always priority to interrupt kill

First boss
Atro is second
4 legged chic (third boss is next)
Dragon is last

Keep moving
Good luck!

We made it to ARC 7 last night...got really sporty lol

https://twitch.tv/videos/1969643459

Lugaldu · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

I'll ask directly: Do you want any help regarding your build or do you have any questions about boss mechanics, which we can answer to make your time in EA more enjoyable?

Thanks for the offer. I am happy with my build.

I'm starting to wonder why some people here in this thread seem to think that at some point I said that EA should be nerfed to the difficulty level of a mudcrab fight. Like many others, I added to the discussion that I find the difficulty level of some of the bosses in arc 1 inappropriate for an "entry level" and that this will most likely - unfortunately - stop a lot of people from having fun with the new content. A simple solution could be different difficulty levels, as is the case with the dungeons. But some people here are resisting to this idea and arguments have been raised again and again that people just have to do better if they can't do it in their current form. But in my opinion, this very argument is a way of looking down on other players who, for whatever reason, find the arc 1 difficult in its current state. And it's not about making something so easy that you can do it in your sleep, but about a balance that I don't think exists at the moment.

Giulietta · November 2023

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

Braffin · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I'll ask directly: Do you want any help regarding your build or do you have any questions about boss mechanics, which we can answer to make your time in EA more enjoyable?

Thanks for the offer. I am happy with my build.

I'm starting to wonder why some people here in this thread seem to think that at some point I said that EA should be nerfed to the difficulty level of a mudcrab fight. Like many others, I added to the discussion that I find the difficulty level of some of the bosses in arc 1 inappropriate for an "entry level" and that this will most likely - unfortunately - stop a lot of people from having fun with the new content. A simple solution could be different difficulty levels, as is the case with the dungeons. But some people here are resisting to this idea and arguments have been raised again and again that people just have to do better if they can't do it in their current form. But in my opinion, this very argument is a way of looking down on other players who, for whatever reason, find the arc 1 difficult in its current state. And it's not about making something so easy that you can do it in your sleep, but about a balance that I don't think exists at the moment.

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Maybe they could implement an (preferably optional) Arc 0, which is to your liking or some sort of training mode, which would of course lock the participants out of the daily rewards. Would that be an agreeable compromise?

Joy_Division · November 2023

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Did Endless Archive one time and wiped to the Serpent in Arc 1 Stage 3.

Did Endless Archive two times and got through to Arc 3.

Winner winner.

Imagine getting the Serpent in Arc 2, where it's more difficult and takes out half your 30K health heavy armor block on a basic attack. Also Good luck healing through the poison. Yes, I'm sure some highly skilled players beat him, that's not the point. Serpent's difficulty level is nowhere near consistent with the other bosses.

18 pages of a thread where the improvements with Endless Archive seem pretty obvious.

Most (like 90%) of the random bosses are fine. Some are bugged (the Maw of Lorkaj boss). Some of conspicuously more difficult (Serpent). Drop Serpent from pool. Fix bug. Win
Arc 1 main boss (forget name) is quite the bump in difficulty. The concept of a gatekeeper boss is fine and has been a fantasy staple for basically ever, but the gatekeeper should come after arc 1, after people can complete their dailies, after the majority of the player base can partake in the content. I'm totally fine with the roaming Guardian boss in Arc 2 because it's Arc 2, and yes, while it wiped me quickly when first encountering it, now it dies every time since I know its mechanics.
Some sort of Mastery achievement is needed. Once I beat Arc 1 flawlessly X number of time, I now have the option to skip Arc 1. I understand I forgo drops (but the visions are still needed).
Save. I understand I forgo leaderboards. But my daughter just called needing a ride home because her scheduled ride was sick. I'd rather not slog two hours to get back to Arc 3.

Something else I think is getting lost is this is the first week of content and people are complaining about the difficulty and dying. Of course you're going to die against bosses you've never seen with the DPS parse build you brought into EA thinking it would be good enough because that same build effortlessly breezes through perfect Vateshran Hallows runs (which people also initially complained about being too hard),

The first time I did EA archive I got to Arc 2 main boss and got wiped hard by constant 20K attacks, leaving me to think it was going to be a major obstacle. Four days later I'm at the Arc 4 main boss on a class I'm not even very good at. Knowing the predictable mechanics is what makes the content easier. You don;t need to find the fountain of youth or hone your reflex speed.
Also slotting utility skills like Crystalized Shield, that many haven;t even bothered to unlock because ESO's Open World and DPS focused trial mechanics provides zero reason to use such skills, help a ton.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

joergino wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

You're right. It's not difficult. It's utterly impossible.
Three times blown out off the arena by Yolnahkrin, yeah, that's fun.

There's a button named "block", you may want to check it out.

Not helpful. Some of us are older and/or have bad reflexes...

This is the equivalent of get gud.

This game has an action combat system that is reliant on active blocking, dodging, interrupting and so forth.
Also almost all attacks that need to be blocked have massive telegraphs, same for interruptable spells etc.
And even beyond that, there are ways to get around bad reflexes, for example ring of the pale order which allows to dps thru most mechanics without issue.

I am so tired of people complaining about difficulty, while simultaneously dissing every and all avenues that would make their experience easier.
Zos nerfing EA is not the only solution for those who struggle with this content.

Edit: When Vateshran Hollows came out I farmed it on vet with a heavy attack templar build, that used a total 3 offensive skills and held left click. It really, really doesn't get any easier than that.

Lets just take this in pieces shall we?

1) Yes it does have an active combat system with "prompts" to tell you when to block and interrupt. The problem being is my eyes are not what they used to be and if the enemy is too small or their is other things going on that require my attention on screen, I miss them. I must have missed the optional setting that allowed a BIG YELLOW screen aura that indicated to Block now, and the big RED ONE to indicate interrupt. And don't tell me the base game prompts are adequate. I would still miss them occasionally due to my reflexes, but at least I could not say I didn't notice them.

2) How exactly am I, and others like me "dissing" other avenues of making the game easier? See aforementioned idea on how the game could be actually made easier. If they made EA have JUST base game and early bosses (Arc 1 only), and adjust the final boss I would be more than happy to never post on this thread again.

3) Umm, good for you I guess, but we can not all be you. Personally I hate dying repeatedly just to maybe see some queue I missed, I would rather just skip the content. Hence not ever doing any vet, PvP, or trials.

Edit: clarity

1. If you are console than fair enough, on pc there are tons of addons to help with combat and they're very customizable.
2. Again, there are in game solutions to EA being to difficult, that do not require the devs nerfing the content. I brought up the Pale order ring, but I've seen a lot of people run defensive sets as well for example etc. What bothers is me, is that this isnt even a git gud moment, it's a, please try to put a bare minimal effort into solving your problem in game before calling the devs to make the content easier for you moment.
3. I also hate failing repeatedly, but my immediate reaction is not to call the higher ups to make my life easier, but rather I try to figure what went wrong, or read a guide to see if I missed something.

I want to make this abundantly clear, I do not care if new players get the rewards or whatever from the content, hell I'm okay if zos just put the items on everyone's banks.

What bothers me is the, frankly, and I'm sorry but it's true, lazy attitude so many people have towards anything resembling a challenge in this game.

And even if your eyesight is terrible, your reflexes non-existent, etc, I can guarantee you, that if you put just a tiniest bit of effort into changing your approach to the challenge, you would have an infinitely easier time.

1) Consoles don't even have access to EA so the only platform is the PC currently. There are no addons that do what I would like done, and unless you know someone that could make the one mentioned above and keep it updated I will continue to fail EA on some bosses. Any addons that might have helped some are no longer updated and again, unless you can point out one that does what I need I'll just skip EA completely.

As for the rest, I am sure by now the Devs have already decided on what they will do after all the feedback and metrics they use. For now I'll just leave this topic and the EA for when/if they decide to change it . Final note is as I already said many times in this thread I DON'T play this game for the challenge, but to relax!.

We are never going to agree here and as I have better things to do I'll just bow out.

I still would like to see an update than adds an endless public dungeon to the game, as those I am comfortable with, but I fear that will never happen when it seems many here just want the aforementioned challenge.

Braffin · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

joergino wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

You're right. It's not difficult. It's utterly impossible.
Three times blown out off the arena by Yolnahkrin, yeah, that's fun.

There's a button named "block", you may want to check it out.

Not helpful. Some of us are older and/or have bad reflexes...

This is the equivalent of get gud.

This game has an action combat system that is reliant on active blocking, dodging, interrupting and so forth.
Also almost all attacks that need to be blocked have massive telegraphs, same for interruptable spells etc.
And even beyond that, there are ways to get around bad reflexes, for example ring of the pale order which allows to dps thru most mechanics without issue.

I am so tired of people complaining about difficulty, while simultaneously dissing every and all avenues that would make their experience easier.
Zos nerfing EA is not the only solution for those who struggle with this content.

Edit: When Vateshran Hollows came out I farmed it on vet with a heavy attack templar build, that used a total 3 offensive skills and held left click. It really, really doesn't get any easier than that.

Lets just take this in pieces shall we?

1) Yes it does have an active combat system with "prompts" to tell you when to block and interrupt. The problem being is my eyes are not what they used to be and if the enemy is too small or their is other things going on that require my attention on screen, I miss them. I must have missed the optional setting that allowed a BIG YELLOW screen aura that indicated to Block now, and the big RED ONE to indicate interrupt. And don't tell me the base game prompts are adequate. I would still miss them occasionally due to my reflexes, but at least I could not say I didn't notice them.

2) How exactly am I, and others like me "dissing" other avenues of making the game easier? See aforementioned idea on how the game could be actually made easier. If they made EA have JUST base game and early bosses (Arc 1 only), and adjust the final boss I would be more than happy to never post on this thread again.

3) Umm, good for you I guess, but we can not all be you. Personally I hate dying repeatedly just to maybe see some queue I missed, I would rather just skip the content. Hence not ever doing any vet, PvP, or trials.

Edit: clarity

1. If you are console than fair enough, on pc there are tons of addons to help with combat and they're very customizable.
2. Again, there are in game solutions to EA being to difficult, that do not require the devs nerfing the content. I brought up the Pale order ring, but I've seen a lot of people run defensive sets as well for example etc. What bothers is me, is that this isnt even a git gud moment, it's a, please try to put a bare minimal effort into solving your problem in game before calling the devs to make the content easier for you moment.
3. I also hate failing repeatedly, but my immediate reaction is not to call the higher ups to make my life easier, but rather I try to figure what went wrong, or read a guide to see if I missed something.

I want to make this abundantly clear, I do not care if new players get the rewards or whatever from the content, hell I'm okay if zos just put the items on everyone's banks.

What bothers me is the, frankly, and I'm sorry but it's true, lazy attitude so many people have towards anything resembling a challenge in this game.

And even if your eyesight is terrible, your reflexes non-existent, etc, I can guarantee you, that if you put just a tiniest bit of effort into changing your approach to the challenge, you would have an infinitely easier time.

Final note is as I already said many times in this thread I DON'T play this game for the challenge, but to relax!.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/endlessarchive

That's zos official announcement for EA:

Eternal mystery, unlimited dangers, unending challenge, infinite rewards, all tied together into this new piece of content.

If you decided for yourself, that you aren't interested in challenging yourself, I respect that, honestly. It's your decision tho, not gatekeeping by us other, neither from zos nor from the community.

Syldras · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

[snip]

Braffin wrote: »

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Sounds fine to me for a training ground.

[edited for baiting]

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

joergino wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

You're right. It's not difficult. It's utterly impossible.
Three times blown out off the arena by Yolnahkrin, yeah, that's fun.

There's a button named "block", you may want to check it out.

Not helpful. Some of us are older and/or have bad reflexes...

This is the equivalent of get gud.

This game has an action combat system that is reliant on active blocking, dodging, interrupting and so forth.
Also almost all attacks that need to be blocked have massive telegraphs, same for interruptable spells etc.
And even beyond that, there are ways to get around bad reflexes, for example ring of the pale order which allows to dps thru most mechanics without issue.

I am so tired of people complaining about difficulty, while simultaneously dissing every and all avenues that would make their experience easier.
Zos nerfing EA is not the only solution for those who struggle with this content.

Edit: When Vateshran Hollows came out I farmed it on vet with a heavy attack templar build, that used a total 3 offensive skills and held left click. It really, really doesn't get any easier than that.

Lets just take this in pieces shall we?

1) Yes it does have an active combat system with "prompts" to tell you when to block and interrupt. The problem being is my eyes are not what they used to be and if the enemy is too small or their is other things going on that require my attention on screen, I miss them. I must have missed the optional setting that allowed a BIG YELLOW screen aura that indicated to Block now, and the big RED ONE to indicate interrupt. And don't tell me the base game prompts are adequate. I would still miss them occasionally due to my reflexes, but at least I could not say I didn't notice them.

2) How exactly am I, and others like me "dissing" other avenues of making the game easier? See aforementioned idea on how the game could be actually made easier. If they made EA have JUST base game and early bosses (Arc 1 only), and adjust the final boss I would be more than happy to never post on this thread again.

3) Umm, good for you I guess, but we can not all be you. Personally I hate dying repeatedly just to maybe see some queue I missed, I would rather just skip the content. Hence not ever doing any vet, PvP, or trials.

Edit: clarity

1. If you are console than fair enough, on pc there are tons of addons to help with combat and they're very customizable.
2. Again, there are in game solutions to EA being to difficult, that do not require the devs nerfing the content. I brought up the Pale order ring, but I've seen a lot of people run defensive sets as well for example etc. What bothers is me, is that this isnt even a git gud moment, it's a, please try to put a bare minimal effort into solving your problem in game before calling the devs to make the content easier for you moment.
3. I also hate failing repeatedly, but my immediate reaction is not to call the higher ups to make my life easier, but rather I try to figure what went wrong, or read a guide to see if I missed something.

I want to make this abundantly clear, I do not care if new players get the rewards or whatever from the content, hell I'm okay if zos just put the items on everyone's banks.

What bothers me is the, frankly, and I'm sorry but it's true, lazy attitude so many people have towards anything resembling a challenge in this game.

And even if your eyesight is terrible, your reflexes non-existent, etc, I can guarantee you, that if you put just a tiniest bit of effort into changing your approach to the challenge, you would have an infinitely easier time.

Final note is as I already said many times in this thread I DON'T play this game for the challenge, but to relax!.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/updates/endlessarchive

That's zos official announcement for EA:

Eternal mystery, unlimited dangers, unending challenge, infinite rewards, all tied together into this new piece of content.

If you decided for yourself, that you aren't interested in challenging yourself, I respect that, honestly. It's your decision tho, not gatekeeping by us other, neither from zos nor from the community.

I'll comment to this simply because the page was still open....

Yes of course it would offer challenges as you progress, but I was not expecting to fight even modified trial and dlc bosses in the first areas. I can see if those wanting to go lower to get that challenge, but it is the first bloody arc.

I guess I was wrong to even try it, but thanks for pointing out the mini advert though. Had I read it carefully I would have known even more of the game is not suitable for me and not even bothered.

Braffin · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

[snip]

Braffin wrote: »

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Sounds fine to me for a training ground.

I'm simply not interested in any "guesses" out of the blue, solely dependent on personal preferences. I'm interested in facts.

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

Several players showed, how they managed to kill a boss in Arc 1 with a toon freshly made, using only basic attacks, block, dodge (you learn all that in the tutorial, if you're really a new player) and some random skill they put on their bar.

[snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

Kendaric · November 2023

Giulietta wrote: »

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

That's one of the easiest, if not the easiest, bosses in arc 1. Even I can beat her without trouble, in fact when I encountered her the trash mobs before and after her where harder.
I wonder if she only shows up when people are solo (not even with a companion) as in my earlier attempts I was using a companion and encountered Bittergreen.

Is that completely random or based on whether you're all alone or in a duo (friend or companion)? If it's based on group size, companions shouldn't be counted. At all.

Giulietta · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

It baffles me how you don't seem to understand that some people don't have their own progress in mind when criticizing the difficulty here, but think about general accessibility (I know very well that Lugaldu manages to get past Arc 1, we've been soloing and duoing our way through group dungeons for a while now).

Fact is, players who visit the forum are a minority. Even some vet gamers refuse to use the forums because they find them toxic. Do you really think the random beginner level player who doesn't manage to finish the first few rounds of the archive (and those surely exist, I even see low-level players struggling with overland mobs from time to time, let alone even easier world bosses) will ask for advice in the forums? My guess ist that at least 70% will just drop the activity. Which can't exactly be what ZOS has in mind.

Braffin wrote: »

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Sounds fine to me for a training ground.

I'm simply not interested in any "guesses" out of the blue, solely dependent on personal preferences. I'm interested in facts.

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

Several players showed, how they managed to kill a boss in Arc 1 with a toon freshly made, using only basic attacks, block, dodge (you learn all that in the tutorial, if you're really a new player) and some random skill they put on their bar.

[snip]

I didn't dodge. Too elitist for me. Watch my vid.

[edited to remove quote]

Kendaric · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

It baffles me how you don't seem to understand that some people don't have their own progress in mind when criticizing the difficulty here, but think about general accessibility (I know very well that Lugaldu manages to get past Arc 1, we've been soloing and duoing our way through group dungeons for a while now).

Fact is, players who visit the forum are a minority. Even some vet gamers refuse to use the forums because they find them toxic. Do you really think the random beginner level player who doesn't manage to finish the first few rounds of the archive (and those surely exist, I even see low-level players struggling with overland mobs from time to time, let alone even easier world bosses) will ask for advice in the forums? My guess ist that at least 70% will just drop the activity. Which can't exactly be what ZOS has in mind.

Braffin wrote: »

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Sounds fine to me for a training ground.

I'm simply not interested in any "guesses" out of the blue, solely dependent on personal preferences. I'm interested in facts.

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

Several players showed, how they managed to kill a boss in Arc 1 with a toon freshly made, using only basic attacks, block, dodge (you learn all that in the tutorial, if you're really a new player) and some random skill they put on their bar.

[snip]

It really depends on which boss(es) they get...

Which is a problem when trying to discuss the difficulty of EA in arc 1.

[edited to remove quote]

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Giulietta wrote: »

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

Raise those spines of honor for Mirah al Skaven!
Defender of the endless archive and guardian of facts until she hits level 2 and even beyond!

Huzzah!

Lugaldu · November 2023

Giulietta wrote: »

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

This is a perfect example of mocking other people.
Because that's exactly what this thread is about, that some bosses like the example shown are child's play, while others are in no way comparable - and both one and the other can appear in the same level.

Braffin · November 2023

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

So the unwilling scholar it is. Thought so much.

[snip]

Braffin wrote: »

To be very clear about that: If Arc 1 would get nerfed reasonably (I'm against that, as you know), zos should also reasonably nerf the corresponding rewards. You want the content to offer a "taste" of EA? Then that would surely have to include the rewards. They should also only be a "taste" of the possible rewards, not the full spectrum.

Sounds fine to me for a training ground.

I'm simply not interested in any "guesses" out of the blue, solely dependent on personal preferences. I'm interested in facts.

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

Several players showed, how they managed to kill a boss in Arc 1 with a toon freshly made, using only basic attacks, block, dodge (you learn all that in the tutorial, if you're really a new player) and some random skill they put on their bar.

[snip]

It really depends on which boss(es) they get...

Which is a problem when trying to discuss the difficulty of EA in arc 1.

I'll quote myself:

No, there isn't really a difference between those bosses you're talking about difficulty-wise. There is a difference if the player is accustomed to the mechanics of a boss or not tho.

Sure, most players know Kra'gh, so they react naturally, as they do in FG 1. Players not accustomed to trials and dungeons see some of the bosses the first time and die due to mechanics they don't know yet. That's why they think those bosses are more difficult and feel less reaction time at their hands. Because they don't know yet how to handle the new boss.

But after they figured those mechanics out, it's barely a difference between Kra'gh and Zhaj'hassa.

I won't start creating characters to simply proof, that also bosses like the The Serpent and Zhaj'hassa are easily doable after the player facing them figured out their mechanics. I don't have the necessary RNG to do so in a reasonable amount of time and I'd be mocked by the crowd as "elitist" anyways.

There is one thing I tend to agree with you tho: While I have no idea how exactly companions are treated in EA (I never used any and there is no official statement about theim afaik), they surely can't substitute another real player. That's impossible by design, as you loose a life, if you die with an active companion, while both players need to die to loose a life if you go as duo. So, those runs sould be treated as "solo".

And yes, I also wonder if the bosses are completely random or "curated" around amount of players.

[edited to remove quote]

Syldras · November 2023

Braffin wrote: »

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

As the word "guess" says, there is no proof. But you can compare how many active players ESO has and how many forum accounts are registered - it's obvious that the majority of players is not active here (and not on ESO's Reddit either, btw). If you watch this forum for a while, and you seem to do that, you must have realized it's basically almost always just the same people here.

Another guess: You seem to overestimate the effort the average Joe/Jane invests in a game. Most people will probably not do extensive studies online when they don't progress in a game, won't read pages over pages of strategy guides or watch videos on Youtube, Twitch and whatnot.

That's the reason a well-designed game provides every knowledge you need to learn (practicing what you've learned, of course, is what you have to do for yourself) within the game, without relying on third-party content elsewhere on the internet. That's what I'm critizicing. Yeah, there is a tutorial, but it's not much more than hitting, blocking (and maybe not even dodge-rolling? can't remember, it's years ago), so really only the most basic things. That don't help much as soon as you want to do harder content.

Braffin wrote: »

And all you have to do is is laughing at those players and trying to devaluing their statements (which are hard facts after all) with talk about "elitism" and assumptions about "casuals" you simply claim (again without proof).

You seem to have a difficulty telling people apart? I neither used the words "elitism" nor "casuals" anywhere in this thread. I generally don't use "casuals", btw, because I find it a useless term, since everyone is using it subjectively anyway.

And your other claim isn't quite right either, I have never laughed at anyone here. I'm still doubting though that a skilled vet player playing (and succeeding) with a freshly created character is comparable to a complete newbie playing one.

Giulietta · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

Giulietta wrote: »

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

Raise those spines of honor for Mirah al Skaven!
Defender of the endless archive and guardian of facts until she hits level 2 and even beyond!

Huzzah!

thanks a lot^^ she will aspire to arc 2 for sure

valenwood_vegan · November 2023

I've already given a little feedback (save points / practice mode) - but one other thing that occurred to me today is that...

for some of the bosses with more complex mechanics that may be unfamiliar for less experienced players, they could be toned down a little bit in arc one so that the mech hurts BAD but doesn't outright one-shot (at least not the first time) and the NPC guy could provide a helpful comment, such as "that attack nearly killed you, try [insert hint about mech] next time" and/or actual helpful information could be added to the death recaps. It's hard for inexperienced players to learn some of these mechanics in a short time with limited lives. And I suspect it's a huge turn-off to have a run end that way and not even be able to understand what happened.

I think especially since this is the only content being added to the game for half a year, it would be in everyones' interest to make sure it's accessible on some level to a wide range of players. Of course it should not be nerfed down to overland difficulty, but the hardest bosses could be adjusted in arc 1 in a way that promotes learning and understanding of the mechs and prepares the player to progress if they want to. If players feel that the only content being added to the game until sometime next year isn't for them, they're likely to get bored and move Elsweyr, and it's not a given that they'll come back... and that's bad for all of us.

On the flip side, for vets, it would be nice to be able to skip arc 1 after a certain amount of progress has been made. I put on a good movie and barely even engage with arc 1 because it's boring and provides me with no challenge whatsoever. It feels like being forced to finish normal FG1 first (but much longer, lol) every time before I'm allowed to do a vet dungeon. Arc 1 was likely made "for everyone" but it seems like really it's for nobody... this should be a fun activity, not repetitive and time-consuming / nor so challenging *initially* that it turns people off from any desire to continue.

EDIT to add one last thought: For some of the players struggling, keep leaving your feedback. It's 100% valid. This is a video game, not the olympics, you purchased and play the game, and your feedback is just as important as anyone else's. Don't let some of these folks bully you into giving up!

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

Giulietta wrote: »

https://youtu.be/au58x2YZPK4

So much for the difficulty.

I was unlucky not to get a harder boss, but there you go.

This is a perfect example of mocking other people.
Because that's exactly what this thread is about, that some bosses like the example shown are child's play, while others are in no way comparable - and both one and the other can appear in the same level.

That's not mockery, that's serving a direct example to underline an argument.
They give weight to their argument while the word "assume", "guess" and "potentially" is thrown around like hot potatoes in here while claiming that Arc 1 is too difficult for 1) At first new players and now 2) Aged players and probably tomorrow somebody else.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Besides, a boss is a boss. If a level 1 character doesn't die to a boss nor the 3 previous stages of add waves simply, because the boss doesn't have any 'harder' mechanics....what stops a level 50 player who's not naked nor unexperienced from breezig through these 3 add waves and face a boss with the same exact amount of HP and Resistance.

If mechanics are all what's stopping you, you can learn those.

You can observe and adapt.
You can read a guide online.
You can watch a youtube video on the boss
You can ask your friends and guild mates who might already know the boss for help.

The good things about all EA bosses is, that every single one of them got dozens of guides on the mechanics spread across the world wide web free to be accessed by everyone!

But you come here instead. Continously stating that it's too hard.
It's not. - You simply didn't try for real.

Syldras · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

while the word "assume", "guess" and "potentially" is thrown around like hot potatoes in here while claiming that Arc 1 is too difficult for 1) At first new players and now 2) Aged players and probably tomorrow somebody else.

Problem is, we don't have any stats. I'd really be curious at which level most players drop out, but ZOS will never give us information about that, I'm afraid.

I, like everyone else when it comes to things we don't have proof for, base my guesses on personal experience. And seeing beginner-level players getting squashed by public dungeon mobs (not even bosses) regularly doesn't exactly give me the impression they'd get along well in the archive.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

while the word "assume", "guess" and "potentially" is thrown around like hot potatoes in here while claiming that Arc 1 is too difficult for 1) At first new players and now 2) Aged players and probably tomorrow somebody else.

And seeing beginner-level players getting squashed by public dungeon mobs (not even bosses) regularly doesn't exactly give me the impression they'd get along well in the archive.

I understand that you're curious for the numbers hiding behind release week. But nobody, and I'm not speaking about you specifically now, should refrain from trying out new content because of stats or, as somebody else in this thread mentioned, because somebody else told them not to try it. - That'd be simply ridiculous.

About your personal experience: It's true, I don't remember seeing new player characters getting smashes in public dungeons despite spending quite some time in each of them that comes with a DLC simply to farm fragments and sell or gift them away. All new players characters I encounter simply don't die, because I help them and explain them how to handle the group event via chat. Maybe that's why.

Lugaldu · November 2023

Well, I'll put my popcorn aside now and concentrate on the archive, I guess...

Syldras · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

If mechanics are all what's stopping you, you can learn those.
You can observe and adapt.

In a game mode where you drop out after you've died 3 times, which might happen really fast with some mechanics, before you've even really understood what the whole thing is about?

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

You can read a guide online.
You can watch a youtube video on the boss

In a game mode where you can't save and drop out if you're inactive for too long?

That's the problem I (and others) have mentioned in this thread a few times already. People might be totally willing to learn, but the way the archive is designed isn't exactly supporting that: You have time pressure, you can't save, you can only try a few limited times which might not be enough if it's a more complicated boss mechanic.

Braffin · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

So, do you have any proof for your claim, that around 70% will just drop the activity?

As the word "guess" says, there is no proof. But you can compare how many active players ESO has and how many forum accounts are registered - it's obvious that the majority of players is not active here (and not on ESO's Reddit either, btw). If you watch this forum for a while, and you seem to do that, you must have realized it's basically almost always just the same people here.

Another guess: You seem to overestimate the effort the average Joe/Jane invests in a game. Most people will probably not do extensive studies online when they don't progress in a game, won't read pages over pages of strategy guides or watch videos on Youtube, Twitch and whatnot.

That's the reason a well-designed game provides every knowledge you need to learn (practicing what you've learned, of course, is what you have to do for yourself) within the game, without relying on third-party content elsewhere on the internet. That's what I'm critizicing. Yeah, there is a tutorial, but it's not much more than hitting, blocking (and maybe not even dodge-rolling? can't remember, it's years ago), so really only the most basic things. That don't help much as soon as you want to do harder content.

Braffin wrote: »

And all you have to do is is laughing at those players and trying to devaluing their statements (which are hard facts after all) with talk about "elitism" and assumptions about "casuals" you simply claim (again without proof).

You seem to have a difficulty telling people apart? I neither used the words "elitism" nor "casuals" anywhere in this thread. I generally don't use "casuals", btw, because I find it a useless term, since everyone is using it subjectively anyway.

And your other claim isn't quite right either, I have never laughed at anyone here. I'm still doubting though that a skilled vet player playing (and succeeding) with a freshly created character is comparable to a complete newbie playing one.

So, no proof. Thought so much. Others delivered.

So, you think "extensive studies" are necessary to run into Arc 1 of EA with a lvl 4 toon and kill the bosses in there with nothing more than blocking, bashing, maybe dodging and basic attacks. Interesting. Care to elaborate? What research is necessary for this exactly?

I agree, that we need better tutorials for newer players. But EA is exactly the place to learn in your own pace, if you're interested. Instead some minor fraction of this forums (which are already representing a minor fraction of the playerbase regarding to your own words) tries to exactly take that place of learning mechanics away from more casual players.

I'll ask directly now: What exactly are your personal experiences with EA? Did you already meet the bosses you're considering "too hard" for a big chunk of the playerbase? How did you do against The Serpent? How did it go againt Zhaj'hassa (if he didn't bug out)? How did you do against Thoat? Share your experience, I'll listen.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

If mechanics are all what's stopping you, you can learn those.
You can observe and adapt.

In a game mode where you drop out after you've died 3 times, which might happen really fast with some mechanics, before you've even really understood what the whole thing is about?

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

You can read a guide online.
You can watch a youtube video on the boss

In a game mode where you can't save and drop out if you're inactive for too long?

That's the problem I (and others) have mentioned in this thread a few times already. People might be totally willing to learn, but the way the archive is designed isn't exactly supporting that: You have time pressure, you can't save, you can only try a few limited times which might not be enough if it's a more complicated boss mechanic.

1) Yes, that's how rogue-like styled game modes work. You got a limited amount of chances. But fear not! You can jump straight back in after using the handy hourglass next to the entrance and reset the thing. You don't lose anything but progression. And progression is meaningless when the rewards aren't bound to it. They are bound to the currency that drops on Arc 1 just as much as it does on Arc 2. The side events that require absolutely no combat apart from heabutting a butcher as a goat give the same amout as putting Yolnakriin in his place.

2) FYI, because it seems you didn't notice yet - It takes a lot longer to disconnect due to inactivity in the endless archive than it does everywhere else in the game. I think only afk browsing the crown store protects you longer from disconnecting at this point. I can tell, because after one boss or another, I put water on the stove, got my laundry from the washing machine and put it up...all sorts of things, really. So, if I'd have to guess...you're at least safe for 10 minutes before you log out.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was even more, actually. But I'm not going to stand afk in the endless archive and record it to proof my point.