Please fix Endless Archive difficulty

Syldras · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

It already is, arc 1 can be completed by a naked character. What else you want?

Many postings here say otherwise. Also, I really doubt that most beginners can actually beat a trial boss (which might appear in 1.4.3) on their own.

It's weird anyway, bosses from the open world, dungeons and trials are officially labeled group content, and now beginners are supposed to be able to easily fight them alone? If so, why are dungeons designed for 4 players, trials for 12? I know they can be soloed. I've soloed a few myself. But suddenly expecting random beginners to be able to do that seems off somehow.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Name one reason why difficulty shouldn't be balanced in a way that both beginners and vets can enjoy the new dungeon. Extra points if you manage without exaggerations and assumptions towards people you don't even know.

It already is, arc 1 can be completed by a naked character. What else you want?

The character also appears to have had 2000 champion points.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Name one reason why difficulty shouldn't be balanced in a way that both beginners and vets can enjoy the new dungeon. Extra points if you manage without exaggerations and assumptions towards people you don't even know.

It already is, arc 1 can be completed by a naked character. What else you want?

TBH I would love to see the video of this as proof of your claim without the high cp. All it would take is one missed dodge/block to remove a thread.

Edit: the video posted also has the choice of 3 visions/versus unlocked.. not exactly a starter build

Hyperbole aside, I just want the arc 1 bosses tweaked to a) not knock me off the pedestal and/or B ) not light up the entire pedestal with red rings; the last boss could be tweaked too IMO. In lieu of that just remove the trial bosses and DLC bosses from arc 1, seeing as if you get a good RNG run you won't see them anyways. If players want to go beyond the daily then great for them, I will just leave after arc 1.

Not so much an endless experience as a one and done, but at least I get the daily.

Edit apparent B ) is a

Aislinna · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

The only thing your video proved is that YOU can complete arc 1 on a naked character in 24 minutes. It did not prove that EA is "easy", it proved nothing other then your ability to complete it "naked". Congrats.

A subjective opinion is not truth, in any generation.

jaws343 · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

It already is, arc 1 can be completed by a naked character. What else you want?

Many postings here say otherwise. Also, I really doubt that most beginners can actually beat a trial boss (which might appear in 1.4.3) on their own.

It's weird anyway, bosses from the open world, dungeons and trials are officially labeled group content, and now beginners are supposed to be able to easily fight them alone? If so, why are dungeons designed for 4 players, trials for 12? I know they can be soloed. I've soloed a few myself. But suddenly expecting random beginners to be able to do that seems off somehow.

This is Duo content. It is clearly expected that duos are the norm for balance approach. Beginners aren't expected to solo this they are expected to duo it. And then progress to being able to solo it.

Syldras · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

This is Duo content. It is clearly expected that duos are the norm for balance approach. Beginners aren't expected to solo this they are expected to duo it. And then progress to being able to solo it.

I might remember wrong, but I think ZOS announced it as solo content that can optionally be played with a friend?

The question remains: Are 2 beginners supposed to be able to successfully fight a trial boss? One or two, considering trials were originally be supposed to be content for groups of 12 people, I doubt it makes a big difference.

Lugaldu · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

And now do the same with a char that has not 2000 CP, but is lvl 10.

KiltMaster · November 2023

I pretty much just been having trouble with Tho'at (can't pass arc 2 - even tried with a buddy) honestly this is a little embarrassing to admit, but I feel like my partner and I would've been fine in later arcs if we could just beat the 2nd version of Tho'at. She claps cheeks hard!!!

jaws343 · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This is Duo content. It is clearly expected that duos are the norm for balance approach. Beginners aren't expected to solo this they are expected to duo it. And then progress to being able to solo it.

I might remember wrong, but I think ZOS announced it as solo content that can optionally be played with a friend?

The question remains: Are 2 beginners supposed to be able to successfully fight a trial boss? One or two, considering trials were originally be supposed to be content for groups of 12 people, I doubt it makes a big difference.

No, it is Duo content that can be soloed.

And yeah, two beginners can be expected to fight a severely reduced in power trial boss.

Or, more likely, 2 beginners can go play beginner content and get better at the game, with more understanding of mechanics and their classes before trying to do content meant to provide a skill challenge.

caperon · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

This is not a good test to determine that. It shows it's doable on such a character. But difficulty is subjective. A great player in bad gear doesn't suddenly lose their vast knowledge, ability to react, etc.

I'll have to wait make my own judgment on difficulty.

But, I think the only two things that can really determine if arc 1 is too hard for casuals is the completion ratios and feedback from casuals.

Bad gear NO. NO gear, naked. What else you want? Just a tour to watch the scennery?

Completion ratios only show that the game is too easy and averaging with the bottom of the barrel only makes it easier.

caperon · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

And now do the same with a char that has not 2000 CP, but is lvl 10.

Why all the content should be available to anyone regardless of lvl? Should a lvl 10 character be able to complete hard mode dreadsail reef? Go to fungal grotto 1 and stop complaining.

Morvan · November 2023

if anything they could make it harder lol

Syldras · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Or, more likely, 2 beginners can go play beginner content and get better at the game, with more understanding of mechanics and their classes before trying to do content meant to provide a skill challenge.

It was announced as a new activity for every type of player, not just content for vets, with increasing difficulty from arc to arc.

Still wondering what exactly the problem is with providing exactly that was announced.

Syldras · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Why all the content should be available to anyone regardless of lvl? Should a lvl 10 character be able to complete hard mode dreadsail reef? Go to fungal grotto 1 and stop complaining.

Interestingly, you're so close to understanding. Or maybe not.

Braffin · November 2023

Syldras wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

With all due respect, but not everyone is reward-driven. Most players are playing video games because they're interested in the content (can be everything from stories to interesting gameplay and combat mechanics).

Some people might not care for rewards at all, but aren't rewards also a big part of the game? If not, why do we have things like the set stickerbook, dozens of different style motifs, hundreds of recipes and furniture items and collectibles that can be found by collecting items in public dungeons or during events? Why do we have treasure maps and half a dozen of different boxes to loot if rewards wouldn't matter? Is housing not game content? For housing, furniture plans are needed.

Nobody is questioning, that rewards are part of this game (or any other). What is obviously in question, is if players can be bothered to play the game (or any of it's modes) as intended to gather them. Arc 1 is meant to be a challenge for casual players, veteran difficulty doesn't start before Arc 4 (this is how zos is seeing things, given they reward the veteran trophy for completing Arc 4).

Regarding the rewards specifically tied to EA, it's the very same as with every other reward in this game: You'll have to earn them by playing the corresponding content or buy them via traders in case of unbound items (like furnishing plans for housing).

I mean, if we want to ensure, that everyone can claim every reward in this game, it would be necessary to hand them out as login-reward. Would that feel rewarding? I doubt it.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

I just want the arc 1 bosses tweaked to a) not knock me off the pedestal .

Just block, mate.

https://streamable.com/0w8xm4

spartaxoxo · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

This is not a good test to determine that. It shows it's doable on such a character. But difficulty is subjective. A great player in bad gear doesn't suddenly lose their vast knowledge, ability to react, etc.

I'll have to wait make my own judgment on difficulty.

But, I think the only two things that can really determine if arc 1 is too hard for casuals is the completion ratios and feedback from casuals.

Bad gear NO. NO gear, naked. What else you want? Just a tour to watch the scennery?

Completion ratios only show that the game is too easy and averaging with the bottom of the barrel only makes it easier.

Okay , but you had 2000 CP and apparently some other EA specific buffs. So you were not at a power level equivalent to a no gear character.

Completion ratios show whether or not a piece of content is too easy or too difficult.

If they want the majority of players to be able to beat arc 1 (and they do because it's supposed to start easy and then get progressively harder), then they need to look at the ratio and feedback.

If for example they want the majority of casuals to be able to complete it, but only 40% are able to, they can look at the feedback and see the pain points and make changes. If however, say 70% of the casuals are able to complete it, then they can dismiss it as properly tuned and the feedback coming from a vocal minority.

Tandor · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

This is Duo content. It is clearly expected that duos are the norm for balance approach. Beginners aren't expected to solo this they are expected to duo it. And then progress to being able to solo it.

Where did ZOS state that please? To the best of my knowledge they have totally failed to clarify what they meant when they referred to "the intended audience" in the PTS patch notes. If you know different, please give the source.

jaws343 · November 2023

Tandor wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I'd really like to see some metrics about completion of Arc 1 tbh.

The only data available currently are the leaderboards itself, which show the following numbers atm:

highest placing solo: 9.4.1 on arcanist - lowest placing solo: 2.1.2 on necromancer

highest placing duo: 14.4.3 - lowest placing duo: 5.3.1

I don't think all those people aren't casual anymore and we definitely aren't talking about "niche content for the few" but a big chunk of the playerbase.

Even here in forums, where we are used to some players screaming for nerfs on day 1 every time new content gets published, they are clearly the minority.

EA is fine, but I agree with @NoticeMeArkay , that some players should really think about their attitude.

They certainly are, if indeed they exist beyond players of all levels calling for e.g. the removal of high level trial bosses with one shot mechanics from Arc 1. The casual critics aren't actually calling for Arc 1 to be nerfed in a way that could impact on veterans, they're calling for the same difficulty modes that all other dungeons and arenas have in the game, in order to broaden the appeal of EA while facilitating the beefing up of Arc 1 for those wanting EA to be a veteran level challenge throughout. The veteran critics are also calling for a save facility and better balancing of the bosses.

As for data, we don't have any and the leaderboard doesn't really tell us anything about the size of the overall participation in EA. How are you defining "a big chunk of the playerbase"?

jaws343 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

It already is, arc 1 can be completed by a naked character. What else you want?

Many postings here say otherwise. Also, I really doubt that most beginners can actually beat a trial boss (which might appear in 1.4.3) on their own.

It's weird anyway, bosses from the open world, dungeons and trials are officially labeled group content, and now beginners are supposed to be able to easily fight them alone? If so, why are dungeons designed for 4 players, trials for 12? I know they can be soloed. I've soloed a few myself. But suddenly expecting random beginners to be able to do that seems off somehow.

This is Duo content. It is clearly expected that duos are the norm for balance approach. Beginners aren't expected to solo this they are expected to duo it. And then progress to being able to solo it.

Where did ZOS state that please? To the best of my knowledge they have totally failed to clarify what they meant when they referred to "the intended audience" in the PTS patch notes. If you know different, please give the source.

I mean, as with all instances content, it would be absurd if it weren't balanced around the maximum players allowed in an instance.

Trials are 12, dungeons are 4, 2 arenas are 4, 2 are solo.

Doesn't mean it cannot be done with fewer, but the balance point is clearly around the maximum allowed. In this case, duos. If it weren't, arc one would be pointless for duo players.

Syldras · November 2023

All I see is that the archive's design isn't exactly well-thought.

If it comes to difficulty, vets complain about having to run through boring, non-challenging content for more than an hour until it gets interesting for them, while beginners don't even survive the first few rounds and get frustrated. Solution would have been a kind of difficulty adjustment according to character level or maybe the option to skip easier rounds if you're a vet. I don''t know exactly what the best solution would be, but ZOS should have considered this problem, especially as there were, as far as I witnessed, already hints about this when the archive was on PTS.

When it comes to loot, no, I'm not someone who is interested in loot only when it comes to ESO. But still, the archive seems to be extremely ungenerous when it comes to this. Look at the points you get and the costs of the new items you can buy off them. The relations seem unreasonable. Also, there's almost no loot within the levels, you run through an arc for 45 minutes or so and in the end, your pockets are still almost empty. Even if the fighting itself is fun, I think a player should get a bit more loot (on top of it, to make it even more worthwhile) for that amount of time.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Okay , but you had 2000 CP and apparently some other EA specific buffs. So you were not at a power level equivalent to a no gear character.

And how many of these ~2000 champion points do you think are actively buffing his combat at the very moment?

Don't all players, regardless of their level, gear and whatnot, have access to verses? Not speaking of visions but verses. The easiest to aquire buffs which simply require to slay 3 waves of adds.

Those also have the greatest impact on combat, greater than visions even, which is why they are only active during one stage to keep things balanced.

Lugaldu · November 2023

caperon wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

And now do the same with a char that has not 2000 CP, but is lvl 10.

Why all the content should be available to anyone regardless of lvl? Should a lvl 10 character be able to complete hard mode dreadsail reef? Go to fungal grotto 1 and stop complaining.

We're still talking about an in-game activity that increases its difficulty and should therefore scale from "very easy" to "very hard" so that all players - who ultimately spend money on the game's content - can participate. And that also includes lvl 10 players who probably won't be able to do Fungal Grotto 1 solo - at least I can't remember that I had any chance with my first char at lvl 10 without any CP.

Rowjoh · November 2023

I LOVE cookies, but hate making them.

NoticeMeArkay · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

And that also includes lvl 10 players who probably won't be able to do Fungal Grotto 1 solo - at least I can't remember that I had any chance with my first char at lvl 10 without any CP.

The great thing about level 10 players is, that they won't stay level 10 for long. The game refuses to keep them at said level unless the player in question refuses to play the game.

So everybody who's currently at level 10 and struggling to complete just one stage on the endless archive: Rejoice!
Your problems will fix themselves while you enjoy every other part of the game that suits you.

At best, even visiting Apocrypha and entering the Endless Archive will give you enough XP to have you level up to level 11.

Syldras · November 2023

Curious thing, btw, how many vet players seem to object the idea that also beginners should be able to enjoy the new content. I've never seen this behaviour anywhere else - not in music, sports or the arts and crafts; only in gaming - that advanced level participants don't want beginners to be able to enjoy the same activity as them. Why is that?

spartaxoxo · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Okay , but you had 2000 CP and apparently some other EA specific buffs. So you were not at a power level equivalent to a no gear character.

And how many of these ~2000 champion points do you think are actively buffing his combat at the very moment?

Don't all players, regardless of their level, gear and whatnot, have access to verses? Not speaking of visions but verses. The easiest to aquire buffs which simply require to slay 3 waves of adds.

Those also have the greatest impact on combat, greater than visions even, which is why they are only active during one stage to keep things balanced.

"Level 1 naked" implies that you're not getting anything besides the base stats you start out with at level 1. Anything outside of that isn't naked. It is low power ups, not zero power.

I'm not saying that it would be some kind of cakewalk. As I stated, I think it's a good equivalent for a lower power player. But, even then they won't have the same level of reaction time, knowledge, etc. A good player doesn't lose their skill at the game when they unequip their gear.

It's fine if someone wants to do this type of thing to encourage people to give it a try, as some players really do place too much emphasis on gear and are capable of more than they give themselves credit for. But, it can't be used to invalidate someone else finding the content difficult. Difficulty is subjective and is based on a variety of things, not just gear. And it certainly doesn't represent a new player.

spartaxoxo · November 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

No, it is Duo content that can be soloed.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/category/update40

Prepare yourself for an all-new PvE challenge in the Endless Archive, a unique unending dungeon-like activity. Whether you go it solo or team up with a fellow player or Companion, your success in the Endless Archive is limited only by your preparation, skills, and determination.

No. It is solo or duo, not duo but obviously some people are crazy skilled so they can solo. They specifically advertise it as something to go in alone.

Braffin · November 2023

Lugaldu wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

I repeat: Arc 1 is not difficult, it can be completed with a naked character in 24 minutes. The proof is my previous message.

How the truth is considered trolling and baiting is a mystery to me. I guess im from a diferent generation.

You can flag this message too, it wont make you a better player.

And now do the same with a char that has not 2000 CP, but is lvl 10.

Why all the content should be available to anyone regardless of lvl? Should a lvl 10 character be able to complete hard mode dreadsail reef? Go to fungal grotto 1 and stop complaining.

We're still talking about an in-game activity that increases its difficulty and should therefore scale from "very easy" to "very hard" so that all players - who ultimately spend money on the game's content - can participate. And that also includes lvl 10 players who probably won't be able to do Fungal Grotto 1 solo - at least I can't remember that I had any chance with my first char at lvl 10 without any CP.

This statement is nothing but ridiculous. EA is meant as challenging content across the board, with Arc 1 being the baseline at a very low difficulty already.

A player with lvl 10 is still able to participate in EA tho and if they're really that new to the game, they get a whole lot out of this content. All the overland sets for example. Newer players don't have them. If they group up with a buddy they can easily manage to reach Arc 2, while they level up decently. Sounds rewarding for me.

The group I see complaining the most is the (usual) seasoned veteran with next to no interest in this game's combat (and corresponding skill) which feels locked out of content, because they don't want to play it. They are only after the rewards.

Really guys, do you also buy everything out of the crown-store to "have it all"? Would only be consistent.

jaws343 · November 2023

spartaxoxo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

No, it is Duo content that can be soloed.

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/category/update40

Prepare yourself for an all-new PvE challenge in the Endless Archive, a unique unending dungeon-like activity. Whether you go it solo or team up with a fellow player or Companion, your success in the Endless Archive is limited only by your preparation, skills, and determination.

No. It is solo or duo, not duo but obviously some people are crazy skilled so they can solo. They specifically advertise it as something to go in alone.

They also very explicitly said that you could start solo and invite a friend or pull out a companion to make it easier duo. Duo is the clear balance point of the content, which was my point. Solo is clearly going to be harder than duo, and that should be the case with the way this content is designed.

Toxic_Hemlock · November 2023

NoticeMeArkay wrote: »

Toxic_Hemlock wrote: »

I just want the arc 1 bosses tweaked to a) not knock me off the pedestal .

Just block, mate.

https://streamable.com/0w8xm4

Sure, but if I am off by even a second I eat the ground, same goes for some rings/heavy attacks etc. if the target is small or the areas is inundated with effects. Unlike you I am not even close to being that proficient, I got old, sorry, and my reflexes and eyesight are crap.

I guess that means that I will never get a chance to do the daily with poor rng.

I actually got a few good bosses ONCE and completed it to the end, final boss too with the help of a ring of fire verse. That don't mean I want to pray I get lucky again and waste 45 minutes finding out.

In the end we are taking two very different playstyles. Like I said earlier I play to have fun and loot things, others want the challenge.

If EA is not for me, fine I can deal with it, but simply telling me to block is not being helpful!