ForzaRammer wrote: »I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.
Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.
Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?
And what you define as real tank?
As I am playing Healer, Tank and Damage Dealer I can tell you what I'm doing as tank and what I'm expecting from other tanks too: 40k or more health, taunting, moving the boss away from the group, crowd control - that means trying to bring all or most of the crowd to one place so the DD can destroy them much faster. Plus buffing the group, in my case with Ebon Armory and aggressive Horn and if possible debuffing the boss. And then, if theres still time left, I'm doing damage - not much but at around 10-15k/s.
BTW regarding healers: my healer is using for normal dungeons Winters Respite, this leaves a healing frost field at the ground. Sometimes people are thinking I'm using a frost staff, but it's just this healing frost, nothing else. In DLC dungeons I'm telling it always the group so they now that they can stand in this field.
And one more point: although one big part of the game is "play as you like it", there are very clear defined roles for dungeons and trials - Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. If I would have some weird meta with 17k health, no taunt but thinking I can go as tank then this is not play as you like it, this is clearly a fake tank. And as already mentionend many times here and in other threads too: there are some or maybe a lot of poor damage dealer, doing not that much damage whysoever, but maybe they just need an advice how to play a DD. Because this is still missing in ESO: some sort of training room at the very beginning to explain every role.
For the people that say bad DD's aren't a real thing, have you never ran into a player that clearly expects a carry? Someone that can't be bothered to -for example- do anything more than spam light attacks?
Remember, for the normal queue you need to be at least level 10, then the higher you get the more dungeons you unlock until DLC content at level 45.
The ingame tutorial is bad, but not that bad. Some people are actively trying to not play the game and still want to get rewarded for it.
I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.
Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?
ForzaRammer wrote: »I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.
Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.
Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?
And what you define as real tank?
I joined this discussion on "Fake DD Definition and Classification", so not sure why you are asking me about tanks. I gave my opinion on damage dealers. I haven't seen your opinion on the subject, so not really much to "debate". If you don't share a differing opinion, then I presume you agree with mine and the debate is over. If you are wanting to change the subject, then state your new subject opinion so it can be responded to. Sorry, but to me a discussion or debate requires good fath inputs and opinions from both people, not one person just trying to provoke another person,.
Additionally, I am only familiar with the term "disjoint sets" as it relates to mathematics, so not really sure what you are asking. But by a pure mathematical definition, anything a tank and DD have in common, i.e, class, automatically disqualifies them from being "disjointed sets".
slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »Fake Tank= can't/won't even taunt.
Bad Tank= Taunts, but can't take the damage..
Fake Healer= produces NO heals/group heals
Bad Healer= can heal, but not nearly enough..
Fake DD= N/A: anyone/everyone can/does do damage..
Bad DD= Does damage, but not nearly enough..
Bad dps is a problem, no doubt, but that's not because they are "fake". It's a matter of poor rotation, poor gear, low level, ect ect.
Queuing up as a tank knowing full well you can't/won't taunt and can't take a hit is replacing the tank role with a DD just so you can save 5 minutes on a queue. THAT is the very definition of a Fake Tank.
Blood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »But the game doesn’t allow you to taunt without doing damage. Thus for anyone to satisfy your tank standards they have to do damage.
If i have to do task B, and i can’t do task B without task A, then i also have to do task A, my responsibility don’t change regardless of it’s explicitly stated or not.
Your statement is in the same category as “we just need you to have bachelors degree for this job, we don’t require you to have high school diploma”
Keep playing sofistics? Well, I expected a bit more from "debates". But why not
Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"
While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?
Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
Blood_again wrote: »While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?
As I am playing Healer, Tank and Damage Dealer I can tell you what I'm doing as tank and what I'm expecting from other tanks too: 40k or more health, taunting, moving the boss away from the group, crowd control - that means trying to bring all or most of the crowd to one place so the DD can destroy them much faster. Plus buffing the group, in my case with Ebon Armory and aggressive Horn and if possible debuffing the boss. And then, if theres still time left, I'm doing damage - not much but at around 10-15k/s.
BTW regarding healers: my healer is using for normal dungeons Winters Respite, this leaves a healing frost field at the ground. Sometimes people are thinking I'm using a frost staff, but it's just this healing frost, nothing else. In DLC dungeons I'm telling it always the group so they now that they can stand in this field.
And one more point: although one big part of the game is "play as you like it", there are very clear defined roles for dungeons and trials - Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. If I would have some weird meta with 17k health, no taunt but thinking I can go as tank then this is not play as you like it, this is clearly a fake tank. And as already mentionend many times here and in other threads too: there are some or maybe a lot of poor damage dealer, doing not that much damage whysoever, but maybe they just need an advice how to play a DD. Because this is still missing in ESO: some sort of training room at the very beginning to explain every role.
Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.
That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.
The issue with this "definition" is that if the damage dealer is doing some damage they are dealing damage. The fake tank is not taunting and the fake healer is not providing any heals to the group. It is a firm line.
In other words, a fake DPS would have to try really hard to be truly fake.
Granted, I agree that there is a real problem with damage dealers in the GF, so I avoid the GF and only run with guildies. Since many of those same low DPS players also die to well-telegraphed damage and miss mechanics in general it seems many are extremely inexperienced in general or more so with fights their mechanics are meaningful.
How to fix it. I have no idea which is why I no longer use the GF to find a group. I have never played a MMORPG where the performance of many of the players that queue for to get into a group was so poor outside of raid GFs.
Freilauftomate wrote: »Most people using the dungeon finder don't have a problem with unexperienced players, they have a problem with lying weasels.
spartaxoxo wrote: »I'm kind of curious what exactly it means to "build for damage" in dungeons.
Particularly, does that involve sacrificing sustain, self heal and debuff abilities and not roll dodging out of damage because all of these reduce DPS. Does it involve trusting on support instead to cover all that while you focus on dealing damage?
Yes, a damage dealer's build should focus primarily on damage. It doesn't mean they need to play stupid, like standing in aoe. But if a player has a bunch of heals slotted and they are mostly just light attacking, that person's build isn't focused on damage.
ForzaRammer wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"
There is nothing wrong with my analogy, you require dd to only to have “high school diploma” while you require tank to have “bachelor degree”, and you are telling me “but tank does not need high school diploma”.
And that’s fair distribution of task to you? And you don’t need to make it fair by giving tank even less. You can make it fair by requiring dd to do more.
spartaxoxo wrote: »All of these do non-zero damage. So, they would be real DPS by such a definition. There is basically no such thing as someone who isn't a DPS. They have no responsibility to the group.
ForzaRammer wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.
Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.
Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?
And what you define as real tank?
I joined this discussion on "Fake DD Definition and Classification", so not sure why you are asking me about tanks. I gave my opinion on damage dealers. I haven't seen your opinion on the subject, so not really much to "debate". If you don't share a differing opinion, then I presume you agree with mine and the debate is over. If you are wanting to change the subject, then state your new subject opinion so it can be responded to. Sorry, but to me a discussion or debate requires good fath inputs and opinions from both people, not one person just trying to provoke another person,.
Additionally, I am only familiar with the term "disjoint sets" as it relates to mathematics, so not really sure what you are asking. But by a pure mathematical definition, anything a tank and DD have in common, i.e, class, automatically disqualifies them from being "disjointed sets".
1. I already stated very early I believe fake dd exist, and let me add “anyone who can’t out perform a companion is fake”
2. I also stated very early on “i would like people on the negative side define what real tank healer and dd is”
3. Define the duty of a tank is important because fair distribution of responsibility is important, otherwise you can simply give more to the tank while push the idea dd should do less
4. Disjoint is exactly what it means in mathematics term, in your opinion, can a person be both a tank and dd at the same time?
Blood_again wrote: »ForzaRammer wrote: »Blood_again wrote: »Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"
There is nothing wrong with my analogy, you require dd to only to have “high school diploma” while you require tank to have “bachelor degree”, and you are telling me “but tank does not need high school diploma”.
And that’s fair distribution of task to you? And you don’t need to make it fair by giving tank even less. You can make it fair by requiring dd to do more.
I insist that your analogy is false. You compare apples with oranges. Fulfilling tank role doesn't require any diploma.
Please, tell me why I should reject your false analogy twice? Just because you repeated it? Gonna try in one more time?
From tank I don't require anything but fair saving the group from main amount of damage. That is responsibility, not doing the damage.
Double check my analogy about loader. You require priviledges for you or higher responsibility for another role just because your legs move while you're working.
Do you think it would be more fair to remove damage from taunts? Wanna head on this initiative?
Wait, are you really trying to bet only on "tank do damage too" horse?
Sorry, you can't discredit my definitions through it. My definitions are still good, lackonic and fair. Three roles, three simple responsibilities that work in any game, not just in ESO.
If you want to prove it false, you have to find why simple doing less than X dps is a fake, not just bad. Good luck with it.
There is no such thing as a fake DD. There is only DDs that have taken an interest in learning how to play a DD and then there are those who have not. ESO is advertised as a "play as you want" game. When you first start doing overland quests, this really is true. You can succeed playing as you want. In group content however, this generally does not work (unless your version of play as you want is semi-workable). There are no resources in game that teaches you how to play a role. You have to have the innate curiosity to ask such questions and find the resources. Some players do not have this level of curiousity at all, hence they do not learn how to play at a level where they can operate as a member of a group.
This is an inherent flaw of the game. In competing games such as WoW, each dungeon has a journal where you can learn from written information what each encounter does. ESO has nothing like that. Most games also has DPS meters that tell you in black and white how good or bad your damage is. ESO does not have that (except via optional addons).
So to the question at hand, you can classify DDs as either they have taken the time and interest to learn to play their class at a basic level or those who have not.
Freilauftomate wrote: »@ForzaRammer Why do you say it's so important to define dd, tank and heal? It's pretty much self-explanatory. But it's not possible to write up some 100% accurate definition for everyone, and every situation. And it's not necessary.
The dungeon finder we have right now is a very simple (and still very buggy) tool to help new players find a group for a dungeon they have probably never done before. With simple rules. 1 player tanks, 2 players deal damage, one player heals. If this is not good enough for you, then please make your own group with your own rules. It's way faster and easier, and you can optimize your setup and talk about your goals before you start.
But don't promise 3 people you are willing to do something when you have no intention to do whatever you have promised. I think that's the definition of a liar/fake/fraud/impostor/pretender... And i believe that's the only kind of definition you are really looking for. Most people using the dungeon finder don't have a problem with unexperienced players, they have a problem with lying weasels.
Fake dd is a made up term to retaliate and distract against the many threads here calling out fake tanks.