Fake dd definition and classification debate

WrathOfInnos · September 2023

DD main

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Time to summon some long time members on the negative side @VaranisArano @kargen27 @preevious

As well as a long time member of the affirmative side @WrathOfInnos

Lol, I’m trying to think back on what I’ve said to affirm the fake DD classification. In general I think they are a real DD if they are trying.

There are some rare instances where I’ve ended up in a random dungeon where a DD has 40k health and is taunting everything. They are clearly a 2nd tank. Although given queue times, this is more likely a mistake than a fake. Still cannot call them a real DPS if they do no damage.

There is also the type of “fake DD” that simply avoids combat. They may be hanging back a room or two. Sometimes I wonder if they are just AFK and hoping for rewards without playing, although they did accept the ready check. You’ll sometimes see sneaky types in this category as well, preferring to loot every barrel on the sidelines while the group 3-mans every encounter. If the rest of your group cannot see you, then you’re probably not fulfilling your role (DD, tank, or healer).

Beyond those examples, I’m mostly on the side of “real DD”. As long as they are participating in the fights, using some damage abilities, and not blatantly performing a different job entirely. Damage varies a lot, and there’s no easy litmus test I’ve seen incredible damage from players with a Restoration Staff or Sword & Board, and I’ve seen terrible damage from others in Daggers/Greatsword setups. As long as they’re putting in some minimal amount of effort then they can avoid being labeled fake.

I also don’t think DD should just be a get out of jail free card for anyone without a build. They need to slot and cast some damage abilities. Pure light attack spam does not qualify IMO. DD does not just mean non-tank or non-healer, and certainly should not mean deadweight.

flizomica · September 2023

Main both

Fake DPS = not actually trying to do DPS, the same way that a fake tank or healer isn't actually trying to fulfil those roles.

That looks like someone whose bars are mostly filled with non damaging skills, or if they're not really using skills (e.g. light attack spamming bow people). Mathematically I would (mentally) accuse someone of being a fake DPS if they do the same damage as my dedicated tanks (~3-8k single-target) - in other words, the same DPS as a character that isn't actually trying to DPS at all.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

VaranisArano wrote: »

LOL, I have been summoned.

I started off as a main tank for normal and vet dungeons. So I'm pretty familiar with how smoothly normal dungeons should go when the person who queued as tank is using a taunt vs when a fake tank is refusing to taunt and the boss is off attacking whoever it wants.

My opposition to fake tanks without a taunt really started when I started leveling my DD and Healer characters through random normal dungeons. My leveling Warden and Templar healer both ended up face tanking the boss more often than not. And when I'd try to play my DD, well, it was kind of hard to enjoy doing my DPS rotation when the boss was either in my face or constantly running out of ground-based AOEs.

I like to tank...but what eventually happened was I started to hate playing anything but a tank because I was inevitably expected to facetank anyway but with a build that wasn't designed for it. Maybe it'd be better in Veteran Dungeons, but that experience in normals kind of killed my desire to be a healer or a DD.

Nowadays, if I'm playing with friends, I'll bring my main DK tank Varanis Arano. She's got the resistances, chains, CCs, grouping, buffs and debuffs, all the bells and whistles that a good tank can bring to enhance a competent group.

But if I'm playing in random normal dungeons, I'll play one of those DDs-with-a-taunt in normal dungeons. My MagSorc DD/Tank can handily tank all of the normal dungeons I own while still dealing enough DPS to speed up the run AND can heal the party when I get a fake healer.

..............................................

All I really ask in a normal dungeon is that if you queue up as tank, you taunt the boss and don't die.

If you're a normal healer, heal the group and keep yourself alive. "Physician, heal thyself" and all that.

If you're a DD, you should be able to do an appropriate amount of DPS for the content you queued up for. That's pretty minimal for most non-DLC normal dungeons, though I strongly suggest making an appointment with a training dummy to learn your DPS before you start running veteran dungeons so you can gauge your performance on the DPS checks.

Oh you changed, what happened in the last 3 years? Companion dd with human names destroyed your sympathy?

Ragnarok0130 · September 2023

Support main

There's no such thing as a fake DD unless someone queues as a DD with only healing and taunting skills with no damage skills slotted. Unless that happens they're just a bad DD either due to being new or never properly learning their role and using an actual damage build but they are actually trying to do the DD role and are just failing at it - unlike a fake tank or healer who queues as a DD into that role with zero intent or skills to actually perform the tank or heal role.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Time to summon some long time members on the negative side @VaranisArano @kargen27 @preevious

As well as a long time member of the affirmative side @WrathOfInnos

Lol, I’m trying to think back on what I’ve said to affirm the fake DD classification. In general I think they are a real DD if they are trying.

There are some rare instances where I’ve ended up in a random dungeon where a DD has 40k health and is taunting everything. They are clearly a 2nd tank. Although given queue times, this is more likely a mistake than a fake. Still cannot call them a real DPS if they do no damage.

There is also the type of “fake DD” that simply avoids combat. They may be hanging back a room or two. Sometimes I wonder if they are just AFK and hoping for rewards without playing, although they did accept the ready check. You’ll sometimes see sneaky types in this category as well, preferring to loot every barrel on the sidelines while the group 3-mans every encounter. If the rest of your group cannot see you, then you’re probably not fulfilling your role (DD, tank, or healer).

Beyond those examples, I’m mostly on the side of “real DD”. As long as they are participating in the fights, using some damage abilities, and not blatantly performing a different job entirely. Damage varies a lot, and there’s no easy litmus test I’ve seen incredible damage from players with a Restoration Staff or Sword & Board, and I’ve seen terrible damage from others in Daggers/Greatsword setups. As long as they’re putting in some minimal amount of effort then they can avoid being labeled fake.

I also don’t think DD should just be a get out of jail free card for anyone without a build. They need to slot and cast some damage abilities. Pure light attack spam does not qualify IMO. DD does not just mean non-tank or non-healer, and certainly should not mean deadweight.

Oh, if you don’t believe in “doing any damage make a person real dd” “or spam poison spray is real dd” you are definitely not in the negative camp

fizzylu · September 2023

DD main

Oznog666 wrote: »

My 2 cents: to be a fake DD you must be a tank or a healer going in as DD. I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like this. Because this is what fake tanks or healers are doing, they are DD but queuing as tank or healer. Saw it pretty often during this event. IMHO the discussion about fake DDs is nonsense, it can be about DD not able to do enough damage but not about fake DD.

Yeah, I find this to be a very odd "discussion" and kind of comes off as an elitist mindset.... especially in a game that's all about creating your own builds. The whole concept of fake tanks and healers is simply built around the very real situation of DPS queueing as different roles simply for a shorter wait.... last time I checked, no healers or tanks are queueing as DPS to get into dungeons faster.
So while there may be some DPS players that don't build perfectly, whether it's because they don't know how or choose not to, that's okay. The same way I see some healers and tanks not built or playing "properly", leaving me to sometimes have to off tank or heal.... and if I'm choosing to queue for a random group, being put with some players that might not be the most optimal is a risk I'm willingly taking by doing so. I would never want a player to stop enjoying this game in their own way simply because the way they play slowed down a dungeon or even made it so it wasn't possible to get through the content; I'll just stick it out, and if we really can't get past a boss after some tries, I'll leave the group and hope everyone has better luck next time.... and if I truly want to seriously get through things like vet dungeons to get some achievements or something, that's what guildies/friends are for and even the new group finder once it's out.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Oznog666 wrote: »

My 2 cents: to be a fake DD you must be a tank or a healer going in as DD. I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like this. Because this is what fake tanks or healers are doing, they are DD but queuing as tank or healer. Saw it pretty often during this event. IMHO the discussion about fake DDs is nonsense, it can be about DD not able to do enough damage but not about fake DD.

You are claiming that the union of tank dd and healer is the whole player base, which is not proven.

This is exactly why asking for the definition of real dd is important

tomofhyrule · September 2023

Support main

Another one of these threads? Really?

Look, this always devolves into a semantic argument, and that completely misses the point. If the group DPS is sub 10K or the tank is doing 50% of the group DPS, it really doesn't mater whether you label the DPS as "fake" or "bad." It's just a painful experience either way. And yes, there are places in game (like the later DLC dungeons or even some of the old vet-level basegames) where the dungeon can't be completed if the DPS is too low.

Yes, there are hard DPS checks in the game, all the way back to the basegame "II" dungeons. Bloodspawn's a notable one that will cause a room wipe if he's not killed fast enough. If you have two legit supports and two DPS who aren't able to output an appreciable amount of damage, you're not clearing vSpindleII. Period. It doesn't matter if you want to call them fake or not.

The soft DPS checks in the game mean that yes, you can clear it, but it's putting undue hardship on the supports who usually have to juggle more and more adds as the fight goes on so of course that's gonna get overwhelming after a while. These are things like BCII HM with hordes of Daedroths, Crypt II with the wraiths, or Direfrost where you get the frost atro spawns on the final boss (I know, a lot of people don't even know that's a mechanic unless you're in a low-DPS group). Again, low DPS - whether you want to call it "fake" or "bad" - makes the dungeon exponentially more painful for the supports.

And this all leads to the reason that there are so few supports in queue: we're so quick to call out fake supports and badmouth bad supports, but the second there's even a suggestion of a DPS not pulling their weight, it's people being 'super toxic.' "I'm doing my job because I am doing greater than 0 DPS" holds as much weight as "I'm fulfilling my job as a tank because I was the first one in the room and it auto aggroed on me, so therefore I have aggro so I'm a tank." Low DPS groups will make the dungeon go so much slower and more painful, and then the supports get blamed for the run going badly ("You didn't keep taunt up 100% of the time on all 14 daedroths, so you're not doing your job! I was hitting Rilis with one light attack a second so I was damaging him so I was doing my job!")

A good DPS in a pure DPS build can usually carry a bad support through content, especially the earlier dungeons. But the best support in the world will not be able to cover for bad DPS in a pure support build.

And as for "why doesn't ZOS make it so people can't fake roles?" They do now. The newer dungeons, especially on vet, are very punishing with hard heal checks and the Rattled mechanic to make sure that a 3-DPS run isn't gonna work too well unless you specifically set it up where all three DPS run a heal and the tank goes full selfish. Fortunately the new Group finder mechanic that they're coming out with in the update will make it easy to find people who want to take their time or who want to speedrun, so it'll be a lot easier to get a group and then queue with a full four-person group. But if you queue for whatever, you'll get whatever.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Aislinna wrote: »

I do not think you can have "fake" damage dealers, as everybody can deal damage.

Some characters may not have good gear sets or a decent rotation or know mechanics, or may only hold heavy attack or just light attack or could just be a new player, but they are dealing damage, just not enough for your liking. Call them bad if you must, but they are not "fake" as they are not pretending.

Do you believe tank and dd are disjoint sets?

And what you define as real tank?

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Billium813 wrote: »

To me, the indication of "role" is entirely based on intent; the actions being taken. To be a "fake" role, the player must have indicated themselves as one role, yet they are performing actions that either 1) overwhelmingly belong to another role, or 2) are obviously showing no engagement with actually playing the game.

If the player has selected the role of DD, however their damage is noticeably low, I look at the actions of the player first. If the DD is simply performing Full Charged HA with, lets say a 2H, and no Skills are being used, they are a "fake" DD. If they are performing actions and Skills, but the damage is still painfully low, then they are just bad DD, not "fake".

The distinction between bad and "fake" is important because it tells me know how I should treat the player. Bad players get suggestions and assistance. "Fake" players get a comment in chat about it and a vote kick.

Intent is subjective, you can’t know for certain what another player is thinking.

Me and you will make different guess. Leaving to interpretation is not exactly setting a straightforward standard.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Another one of these threads? Really?

Look, this always devolves into a semantic argument, and that completely misses the point. If the group DPS is sub 10K or the tank is doing 50% of the group DPS, it really doesn't mater whether you label the DPS as "fake" or "bad." It's just a painful experience either way. And yes, there are places in game (like the later DLC dungeons or even some of the old vet-level basegames) where the dungeon can't be completed if the DPS is too low.

Yes, there are hard DPS checks in the game, all the way back to the basegame "II" dungeons. Bloodspawn's a notable one that will cause a room wipe if he's not killed fast enough. If you have two legit supports and two DPS who aren't able to output an appreciable amount of damage, you're not clearing vSpindleII. Period. It doesn't matter if you want to call them fake or not.

The soft DPS checks in the game mean that yes, you can clear it, but it's putting undue hardship on the supports who usually have to juggle more and more adds as the fight goes on so of course that's gonna get overwhelming after a while. These are things like BCII HM with hordes of Daedroths, Crypt II with the wraiths, or Direfrost where you get the frost atro spawns on the final boss (I know, a lot of people don't even know that's a mechanic unless you're in a low-DPS group). Again, low DPS - whether you want to call it "fake" or "bad" - makes the dungeon exponentially more painful for the supports.

And this all leads to the reason that there are so few supports in queue: we're so quick to call out fake supports and badmouth bad supports, but the second there's even a suggestion of a DPS not pulling their weight, it's people being 'super toxic.' "I'm doing my job because I am doing greater than 0 DPS" holds as much weight as "I'm fulfilling my job as a tank because I was the first one in the room and it auto aggroed on me, so therefore I have aggro so I'm a tank." Low DPS groups will make the dungeon go so much slower and more painful, and then the supports get blamed for the run going badly ("You didn't keep taunt up 100% of the time on all 14 daedroths, so you're not doing your job! I was hitting Rilis with one light attack a second so I was damaging him so I was doing my job!")

A good DPS in a pure DPS build can usually carry a bad support through content, especially the earlier dungeons. But the best support in the world will not be able to cover for bad DPS in a pure support build.

And as for "why doesn't ZOS make it so people can't fake roles?" They do now. The newer dungeons, especially on vet, are very punishing with hard heal checks and the Rattled mechanic to make sure that a 3-DPS run isn't gonna work too well unless you specifically set it up where all three DPS run a heal and the tank goes full selfish. Fortunately the new Group finder mechanic that they're coming out with in the update will make it easy to find people who want to take their time or who want to speedrun, so it'll be a lot easier to get a group and then queue with a full four-person group. But if you queue for whatever, you'll get whatever.

It is important for us support mains to call them fake, with it established, support mains will hold these people responsible much easier.

Allowing any double standards is an L for us.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a fake DD unless someone queues as a DD with only healing and taunting skills with no damage skills slotted. Unless that happens they're just a bad DD either due to being new or never properly learning their role and using an actual damage build but they are actually trying to do the DD role and are just failing at it - unlike a fake tank or healer who queues as a DD into that role with zero intent or skills to actually perform the tank or heal role.

Please define real tank real healer and real dd first.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

fizzylu wrote: »

Oznog666 wrote: »

My 2 cents: to be a fake DD you must be a tank or a healer going in as DD. I'm pretty sure nobody is acting like this. Because this is what fake tanks or healers are doing, they are DD but queuing as tank or healer. Saw it pretty often during this event. IMHO the discussion about fake DDs is nonsense, it can be about DD not able to do enough damage but not about fake DD.

Yeah, I find this to be a very odd "discussion" and kind of comes off as an elitist mindset.... especially in a game that's all about creating your own builds. The whole concept of fake tanks and healers is simply built around the very real situation of DPS queueing as different roles simply for a shorter wait.... last time I checked, no healers or tanks are queueing as DPS to get into dungeons faster.
So while there may be some DPS players that don't build perfectly, whether it's because they don't know how or choose not to, that's okay. The same way I see some healers and tanks not built or playing "properly", leaving me to sometimes have to off tank or heal.... and if I'm choosing to queue for a random group, being put with some players that might not be the most optimal is a risk I'm willingly taking by doing so. I would never want a player to stop enjoying this game in their own way simply because the way they play slowed down a dungeon or even made it so it wasn't possible to get through the content; I'll just stick it out, and if we really can't get past a boss after some tries, I'll leave the group and hope everyone has better luck next time.... and if I truly want to seriously get through things like vet dungeons to get some achievements or something, that's what guildies/friends are for and even the new group finder once it's out.

How’d you know fake tank and fake healer are trying to do damage?

This assumption is just inaccurate. Many of them do no more dps than a companion.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tank:
Minimal expectation: taunts
Secondary: absorbs damage, controls adds, buffs/debuffs

Healer:
Minimal expectation: heals team
Secondary: buffs/debuffs, provides resources

DPS:
Minimal expectation: deals significant enough damage to clear DPS checks and damage mechs
Secondary: Rezzes

The secondary tasks aren't really necessary for me to consider someone in the correct role. But, I consider a player a fake if they don't meet those minimal definitions. For me, those are the primary task of the role. The entire reason we are separated into those 3 roles in the first place.

I don't consider a fake to automatically be a fraud either. I understand that some people intentionally refuse to fulfill those needs. But, fake is a word that can simply mean not authentic. While it usually implies deceit, it is not a requirement.

I agree with this for the most part, but I think it's also important for the support roles healer/tank to stay with the party. Even a fully spec'ed healer/tank that's always 2 screens ahead isn't doing the party much good.

Basically you are saying being real or fake can even depend on the teammates. The same person doing the exact same thing can be real or fake at difference times.

If 3 people runs ahead they are all real, if 1 person runs ahead then he is a fake. And there is no standards when it’s 2v2.

Blood_again · September 2023

Main both

Well, as OP requests, I'll define tank, healer and dd first.

Tank: a role in group play that supposes to save the group from the most dangerous damage with turning it on self.
Healer: a role in group play that supposes to restore missed health of the group.
DD: a role in group play that supposes to do damage on foes.

Ressing, shielding, buffing/debuffing, doing mechanics, acting in time and staying alive - all these things are additional factors that can be reconsidered between roles depending on encounter.

If player fulfill the role badly, it makes him a bad tank, a bad healer or a bad dd.
For instance, tank taunts too seldom or too late, misses dangerous enemies, spends taunt on immune foe missing others - it is just a bad tank.
Bad dd is the same. Makes 5k dps in vet, makes 0 dps lying dead in stupid - he's not a fake, just very bad.
Just to clarify - bad/good is a scale in an encounter context. Player can fulfill his role better or worse, can be good dd for some normals and bad for some vets.

Now what is faking role, if you ask me. It is rather about an intention, not about a quality.
If a tank has low health, low gear and catches oneshots with his face - he's just bad, not a fake yet. If he doesn't do anything to turn the damage out from his group - doesn't slot taunt, doesn't use it etc - it is a fake tank.
The same is for fake dd. Low dps doesn't make him fake as it is. He's fake if he went to the encounter naked

Once I met a fake dd in trial - he had only tank character but didn't know the trial, just wanted to see it live. So he joined as dd and ran with 44k hp, SnB, puncture... Dragon cone on group was an amazing surprise that time

This classification makes at least two border cases.
1. Mistake. For example, if dd queued as a tank thinking he'll overdamage everything, so he doesn't need taunt. Oops, bosses are on somebody else, who performs better. Intentionally? No. Fake? As a fact, it can be yes.
2. No experience.10lvl character player who heard that SnB and heavy means tanking, so... no taunt for sure. Intentionally? No. Fake? Well, he can't fulfill his role at all.

I guess the player's reaction makes him fake/non-fake in these situations. I met 10lvl tank who opened and slotted taunt by our advice. I heard (didn't meet) about a player, who asked group to make damage a bit lower if they want bosses stayed on him. So it is solvable.
Fake role in these situations usually just ignores the group.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Blood_again wrote: »

Well, as OP requests, I'll define tank, healer and dd first.

Tank: a role in group play that supposes to save the group from the most dangerous damage with turning it on self.
Healer: a role in group play that supposes to restore missed health of the group.
DD: a role in group play that supposes to do damage on foes.

Ressing, shielding, buffing/debuffing, doing mechanics, acting in time and staying alive - all these things are additional factors that can be reconsidered between roles depending on encounter.

If player fulfill the role badly, it makes him a bad tank, a bad healer or a bad dd.
For instance, tank taunts too seldom or too late, misses dangerous enemies, spends taunt on immune foe missing others - it is just a bad tank.
Bad dd is the same. Makes 5k dps in vet, makes 0 dps lying dead in stupid - he's not a fake, just very bad.
Just to clarify - bad/good is a scale in an encounter context. Player can fulfill his role better or worse, can be good dd for some normals and bad for some vets.

Now what is faking role, if you ask me. It is rather about an intention, not about a quality.
If a tank has low health, low gear and catches oneshots with his face - he's just bad, not a fake yet. If he doesn't do anything to turn the damage out from his group - doesn't slot taunt, doesn't use it etc - it is a fake tank.
The same is for fake dd. Low dps doesn't make him fake as it is. He's fake if he went to the encounter naked
Once I met a fake dd in trial - he had only tank character but didn't know the trial, just wanted to see it live. So he joined as dd and ran with 44k hp, SnB, puncture... Dragon cone on group was an amazing surprise that time

This classification makes at least two border cases.
1. Mistake. For example, if dd queued as a tank thinking he'll overdamage everything, so he doesn't need taunt. Oops, bosses are on somebody else, who performs better. Intentionally? No. Fake? As a fact, it can be yes.
2. No experience.10lvl character player who heard that SnB and heavy means tanking, so... no taunt for sure. Intentionally? No. Fake? Well, he can't fulfill his role at all.

I guess the player's reaction makes him fake/non-fake in these situations. I met 10lvl tank who opened and slotted taunt by our advice. I heard (didn't meet) about a player, who asked group to make damage a bit lower if they want bosses stayed on him. So it is solvable.
Fake role in these situations usually just ignores the group.

Thank you for giving your definitions.

1. You expect tank to have agro, in this game that means using taunt skills
2. All taunt skills in this game does damage
3. Thus tanks need to do damage, just in a more specific way
4. You claim dd suppose to just do any damage
5. So everyone qualify your tank standards also quality your dd standards

Does that sound like a fair distribution of responsibility to you?

ZOS_Hadeostry · September 2023

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it discusses dungeon groups.

Thank you for your understanding

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

ZOS_Hadeostry wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it discusses dungeon groups.

Thank you for your understanding

Man, I literally requested to not move my post as the first thing i posted. This post will die in 3 days. Come on.

Blood_again · September 2023

Main both

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Thank you for giving your definitions.

1. You expect tank to have agro, in this game that means using taunt skills
2. All taunt skills in this game does damage
3. Thus tanks need to do damage, just in a more specific way
4. You claim dd suppose to just do any damage
5. So everyone qualify your tank standards also quality your dd standards

Does that sound like a fair distribution of responsibility to you?

I agree with your points 1-5, but point 3 looks a bit misleading.
Tanking in this game is hardly possible without dealing some damage.
Still it doesn't make tank responsible for dealing damage in any way. If the game had any ways to taunt with 0 damage, tank would've been still non-fake while using them.
So tank does some damage as an inavoidable side effect of taunting, but tank doesn't need to do damage. Not his duty.

So no, I can't see anything fair or unfair in that part of distribution, because tank is not responsible for dealing damage. Damage from tank here is a side effect beyond the responsibilities.

Do we need to consider if it is fair that some damage skills do healing or healer deals damage with heavy attack?

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

Blood_again wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Thank you for giving your definitions.

1. You expect tank to have agro, in this game that means using taunt skills
2. All taunt skills in this game does damage
3. Thus tanks need to do damage, just in a more specific way
4. You claim dd suppose to just do any damage
5. So everyone qualify your tank standards also quality your dd standards

Does that sound like a fair distribution of responsibility to you?

I agree with your points 1-5, but point 3 looks a bit misleading.
Tanking in this game is hardly possible without dealing some damage.
Still it doesn't make tank responsible for dealing damage in any way. If the game had any ways to taunt with 0 damage, tank would've been still non-fake while using them.
So tank does some damage as an inavoidable side effect of taunting, but tank doesn't need to do damage. Not his duty.

So no, I can't see anything fair or unfair in that part of distribution, because tank is not responsible for dealing damage. Damage from tank here is a side effect beyond the responsibilities.

Do we need to consider if it is fair that some damage skills do healing or healer deals damage with heavy attack?

But the game doesn’t allow you to taunt without doing damage. Thus for anyone to satisfy your tank standards they have to do damage.

If i have to do task B, and i can’t do task B without task A, then i also have to do task A, my responsibility don’t change regardless of it’s explicitly stated or not.

Your statement is in the same category as “we just need you to have bachelors degree for this job, we don’t require you to have high school diploma”

fizzylu · September 2023

DD main

ForzaRammer wrote: »

How’d you know fake tank and fake healer are trying to do damage?

This assumption is just inaccurate. Many of them do no more dps than a companion.

What assumption? I feel like you're projecting something onto me here because I never said tanks or healers shouldn't do damage.
You know someone is a fake tank when they don't have enough health to take hits from bosses nor bother to round up, position enemies, and hold aggro... but instead, just kills things. You know someone is a fake healer when they're not using basic healing abilities or running a build that helps buff/sustain the party, and instead.... just kills things. It has nothing to do with them doing DPS, everyone should do a little and most "meta" builds for tanks and healers run some DPS abilities.... it's about if they have the basic things required for those roles and perform them. And if they do or do not is pretty obvious.... what isn't obvious, is the definition of "fake DPS", because from everything I've read here.... a "fake DPS" is actually just a not very good DPS, and that does not at all fall into the same subject of what people mean when they talk about fake tanks and fake healers.
So again.... what assumption are you trying to say I've made? I know exactly what I mean when I think of a fake tank or fake healer.... what I don't know, is what you seem to think people mean by "fake tank/healer".... because from what I can see fake=bad here and that's just not accurate at all.

So....
Fake tank: tank that isn't tanking, but just killing things.
Fake healer: healer that isn't healing/buffing, but just killing things.
Mind you, ESO is 100% a game that does not require pure healer and tank builds.... so the term "fake" when it comes to this game is already very vague. I personally have experienced that a group of DPS builds with off healing and tanking capabilities can even get through vet content better than a group with the MMO holy trinity.... but some people in this game expect there to be a pure healer and pure tank, and I can imagine that when some people instead get an off healer or tank, which are totally viable enough to get through a lot of ESO content, they may consider them "fake" wrongfully.... but that's kind of another subject, and honestly, I do not know exactly what this subject is about anymore because it's definitely not about people queueing for roles they know they aren't equipped to do to cut down their queue times.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2023

Main neither

Not sure why it recorded niether but ok:

So im going to start by saying while i am a dps main, a good one, but i recently built my first tank and have have been working through vet dlcs with him.

Today i was in vet moonhunter with a buddy of mine who is an exceptional dps. We got a much less experienced healer and a dps who was barely putting out damage. We did well, the healer kept the carried dps alive (mostly) and i kept everything at bay while my buddy solo dps'ed. Said player then proceeded to activate hm without asking me. Since there is no way to deactivate hm in that dungeon we made the attempt. My friend effectively soloed it down to 34% while i was holding the boss, the two wolves and half the adds until he finally died from the other half. I lasted maybe another 30 seconds holding the entire room before i died.

Now: this is kind of hard to categorize, i will say that they were a disrespectful, selfish dps that didnt add anything to the group and had no thought process but that they could be carried. They saw 3 high cp players and made an assumption about their skill. The healer i think was decent but wasnt equipped nor expecting a hm pull. I ended up sustaining myself the whole fight which an experienced tank could and would have had an easier time with but im a new tank (like i built my tank a few days ago). I can hold my own obviously but doing that turned my fun, lets get you some dungeon experience run with my buddy into a sweaty fight i wasnt prepared for. The kicker is that if the dps had been even a little better on his end we would have cleared.

This was actually the second time something like this happened that day.

Had a similar episode in castle thorn where a poor dps turned on hm, my buddy then turned it off and i pulled before they could try it again. Said dps then proceeded to purposefully die telling us to wipe because they wanted hm which after my moonhunter experience i was not about to do. About halfway through they called for a rez. There was no point for us to safely do this as they wiped on the other side of the room and left my friend to dps the fight solo while complaining that we didnt rez him.

So what is a fake dps: well from my point of view these guys were expecting someone to effectively do their role for them while they picked up achievements, transmutes, monster helms, ect. Id say that about as close to a definition as you can get.

ForzaRammer · September 2023

Support main

fizzylu wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

How’d you know fake tank and fake healer are trying to do damage?

This assumption is just inaccurate. Many of them do no more dps than a companion.

What assumption? I feel like you're projecting something onto me here because I never said tanks or healers shouldn't do damage.
You know someone is a fake tank when they don't have enough health to take hits from bosses nor bother to round up, position enemies, and hold aggro... but instead, just kills things. You know someone is a fake healer when they're not using basic healing abilities or running a build that helps buff/sustain the party, and instead.... just kills things. It has nothing to do with them doing DPS, everyone should do a little and most "meta" builds for tanks and healers run some DPS abilities.... it's about if they have the basic things required for those roles and perform them. And if they do or do not is pretty obvious.... what isn't obvious, is the definition of "fake DPS", because from everything I've read here.... a "fake DPS" is actually just a not very good DPS, and that does not at all fall into the same subject of what people mean when they talk about fake tanks and fake healers.
So again.... what assumption are you trying to say I've made? I know exactly what I mean when I think of a fake tank or fake healer.... what I don't know, is what you seem to think people mean by "fake tank/healer".... because from what I can see fake=bad here and that's just not accurate at all.

So....
Fake tank: tank that isn't tanking, but just killing things.
Fake healer: healer that isn't healing/buffing, but just killing things.
Mind you, ESO is 100% a game that does not require pure healer and tank builds.... so the term "fake" when it comes to this game is already very vague. I personally have experienced that a group of DPS builds with off healing and tanking capabilities can even get through vet content better than a group with the MMO holy trinity.... but some people in this game expect there to be a pure healer and pure tank, and I can imagine that when some people instead get an off healer or tank, which are totally viable enough to get through a lot of ESO content, they may consider them "fake" wrongfully.... but that's kind of another subject, and honestly, I do not know exactly what this subject is about anymore because it's definitely not about people queueing for roles they know they aren't equipped to do to cut down their queue times.

I am not projecting anything, you said “fake tank and fame healer is just DPS queuing different roles for shorter queue”.

Your assumption is “all fake tank and fake healers are real dd”. I don’t agree with that, and let me restate what i said:

Many of them are not trying to do damage, they do no more dps than a companion, with no heal and no taunt.

slt101880b14_ESO · September 2023

Main both

Fake Tank= can't/won't even taunt.
Bad Tank= Taunts, but can't take the damage..

Fake Healer= produces NO heals/group heals
Bad Healer= can heal, but not nearly enough..

Fake DD= N/A: anyone/everyone can/does do damage..
Bad DD= Does damage, but not nearly enough..

Bad dps is a problem, no doubt, but that's not because they are "fake". It's a matter of poor rotation, poor gear, low level, ect ect.
Queuing up as a tank knowing full well you can't/won't taunt and can't take a hit is replacing the tank role with a DD just so you can save 5 minutes on a queue. THAT is the very definition of a Fake Tank.

Katheriah · September 2023

Main both

For the people that say bad DD's aren't a real thing, have you never ran into a player that clearly expects a carry? Someone that can't be bothered to -for example- do anything more than spam light attacks?

Remember, for the normal queue you need to be at least level 10, then the higher you get the more dungeons you unlock until DLC content at level 45.

The ingame tutorial is bad, but not that bad. Some people are actively trying to not play the game and still want to get rewarded for it.

Kallykat · September 2023

Support main

This is an interesting debate. Even though practically they affect a dungeon run in much the same way, it does seem like the distinction between players in "fake" roles and players who are just "bad" at their roles is an important one to make. "Fake" carries a negative connotation, and I gather being perceived as one or the other type of player can affect the way that player is treated (i.e. a bad player gets advice, but a fake player gets kicked).

One of the main problems I see with defining these terms is that most definitions of players in fake roles include some intentionality. A fake tank might be a dd who has no intention of taking aggro but queued as a tank to beat the wait. A fake dd then might have no intention of fulfilling their role focusing on dealing damage and instead just be tagging along for the carry. Okay, but unless the player confesses, it is extremely difficult to know their intentions with certainty. I see a lot of assumptions about player intentions based on their actions or even their builds, but that's not always enough to distinguish between an inauthentic player and a new or uninformed player.

I'll give an example from my own experience. When I first attempted dungeons, I set my role as tank because I was on a character who had high health (in my opinion) and wore heavy armor. I tried to get the attention of the enemies by being early into the battle and attacking them relentlessly with melee attacks. I was playing a templar with a 2-handed weapon because that's what made sense for my character, and that worked fine in solo content. I did not have a taunt, and I had no idea that taunts were even a thing in this game, let alone that they were basically required to be a good tank. I only learned about taunts after reading the forum much later.

Many people have said a fake tank is one without a taunt or that having a taunt slotted is the bare minimum required to play the tanking role. I had no taunt. Moreover, I ran into battles attacking like crazy because I believed it would get the attention of the enemies. I was primarily doing damage and not holding aggro. Therefore, I was playing as a fake tank. However, if you consider intentionality, I was just a bad tank. My point is how difficult it can be to accurately guess someone's intentions and therefore distinguish between "fake" and "bad."

Could a dd be fake? They can definitely be bad at their role. They can also have ill intentions and just be looking for a carry and not really trying to do their best to contribute damage. But, how easy it is to truly distinguish that case from one in which the dd is just not well-informed or well-built but is actually trying? I don't think it's clearcut.

On the other hand, if we remove the intentionality requirement from fake roles, then the difference between "fake" and "bad" is left to the performance. For damage dealers, we might put a number on it (less than x dps = bad, but less than y dps = fake) which seems arbitrary, or we say doing any damage disqualifies the player from being fake. In the latter case, I would say it would be possible but extremely rare to have a fake dd. The player would basically have to only be using skills that heal or buff/debuff or shield that do not also do damage, and they would have to do no light or heavy attacks. The idea that doing zero damage is required for our definition of a fake dd seems as unrealistic as saying that we define fake tanks as those who hold zero aggro throughout the dungeon (even aggro achieved without taunting).

I guess my suggestion would be that we don't assume anyone's intentions and give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they are just bad at their roles and not fakes (unless they admit otherwise). Barring that, if we have to define it based on a player's performance, I'd say we should define it based on the role the player is primarily filling. Fake then could be a tank who primarily spends their time and effort healing the party or a healer who primarily spends their resources doing damage. By this definition, yes, there could be such a thing as a fake dd, someone who primarily heals instead of attacking or spends most of their time running around looting barrels instead of dealing damage. This, to me, seems like a more meaningful definition of fake dd than just saying it's a player who does zero damage or doesn't meet a minimum dps requirement.

fizzylu · September 2023

DD main

ForzaRammer wrote: »

I am not projecting anything, you said “fake tank and fame healer is just DPS queuing different roles for shorter queue”.

Your assumption is “all fake tank and fake healers are real dd”. I don’t agree with that, and let me restate what i said:

Many of them are not trying to do damage, they do no more dps than a companion, with no heal and no taunt.

I'm not even sure who this "many of them" is actually referring to, but because you're once again saying I said something that I did not say:

What I did actually say and imply is that what makes a tank/healer fake is fully lacking the ability to or simply not doing their role in favor of just killing things, and that the terms "fake tank/healer" usually refer to someone like a DPS who would have long queue times, queueing as a different role to shorten their wait time despite not being able to perform said role. ESPECIALLY during events like the Undaunted one.
I also touched upon the fact that I believe ESO is a game where hybrid builds like off-tanks and off-healers can thrive, and that some people may encounter such a build and label them as a fake tank or healer simply because they are not a pure tank or healer build, which is unfair in a game like this where build freedom is a fundamental part of it's design.... but some players are just so used to the holy trinity and expect it.
And to avoid repeating myself even more, I will be ignoring this thread from here on out.

slt101880b14_ESO wrote: »

Fake Tank= can't/won't even taunt.
Bad Tank= Taunts, but can't take the damage..

Fake Healer= produces NO heals/group heals
Bad Healer= can heal, but not nearly enough..

Fake DD= N/A: anyone/everyone can/does do damage..
Bad DD= Does damage, but not nearly enough..

^and basically sums everything up simply

Blood_again · September 2023

Main both

ForzaRammer wrote: »

But the game doesn’t allow you to taunt without doing damage. Thus for anyone to satisfy your tank standards they have to do damage.

If i have to do task B, and i can’t do task B without task A, then i also have to do task A, my responsibility don’t change regardless of it’s explicitly stated or not.

Your statement is in the same category as “we just need you to have bachelors degree for this job, we don’t require you to have high school diploma”

Keep playing sofistics? Well, I expected a bit more from "debates". But why not

Your parallel with diploma is false, because using of taunt skills takes a moment while having diploma takes years.
You'd better compare it with loader job.
Would you say "Look, I have to move my legs to unload this lorry. Why don't you pay me for moving my legs too? I do a double job!"

While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?

Oznog666 · September 2023

Blood_again wrote: »

While you're playing with tiny details, I see you're trying to say that tanks do too much. Wanna tanks do less then just taking the main damage out of group? What will be left? Standing and smiling?

As I am playing Healer, Tank and Damage Dealer I can tell you what I'm doing as tank and what I'm expecting from other tanks too: 40k or more health, taunting, moving the boss away from the group, crowd control - that means trying to bring all or most of the crowd to one place so the DD can destroy them much faster. Plus buffing the group, in my case with Ebon Armory and aggressive Horn and if possible debuffing the boss. And then, if theres still time left, I'm doing damage - not much but at around 10-15k/s.

BTW regarding healers: my healer is using for normal dungeons Winters Respite, this leaves a healing frost field at the ground. Sometimes people are thinking I'm using a frost staff, but it's just this healing frost, nothing else. In DLC dungeons I'm telling it always the group so they now that they can stand in this field.

And one more point: although one big part of the game is "play as you like it", there are very clear defined roles for dungeons and trials - Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer. If I would have some weird meta with 17k health, no taunt but thinking I can go as tank then this is not play as you like it, this is clearly a fake tank. And as already mentionend many times here and in other threads too: there are some or maybe a lot of poor damage dealer, doing not that much damage whysoever, but maybe they just need an advice how to play a DD. Because this is still missing in ESO: some sort of training room at the very beginning to explain every role.

Jaimeh · September 2023

DD main

Fake DD is a misnomer; usually when players queue as a fake healer or a fake tank, their underlying build is completely different and unequipped to perform the tank or healer roles, and they also know they are queueing for the wrong role purposefully. In the case of so-called fake DDs, their underlying build might not be unequipped for the role, it's just that they are not very good at it (for eg., they might be wearing a decent set and have skills slotted but they only light attack or cast skills infrequently, and also might not know the mechanics well), and they also know they are queuing for the right role, so saying 'new, casual, inexperienced, or even bad' player is more fitting I think.