I truly don't understand the point of this thread in the first place. We are mad about HA sorcs getting a small nerf that will make them slightly less strong so we are going to complain about how strong dks are? Completely ignoring they are glass cannons that can be very difficult to play?

It is the usual thinking pattern. OP is taking the top end statistics as a reference for evaluating the spot of HA builds, completely ignoring the fact that HA builds are meant to compete with mid- to low tier 2 bar builds, which represent the majority of the player base and which are nowhere near the statistics of those top tier groups. The twist is, that it is not oakensoul that is overperforming in this environment, but that it is the weak 2 bar player's fault for not training hard enough to outperform oakensoul.... because of the statistics of said top tier groups.
The aspect that DPS is just one part of the equasion and that unlimited sustain, survivability and tankiness are even more important is blissfully ignored.

iirc it was around 25%

The thing is, even if ZOS listens to this and nerfs dks, competitive guilds would find another class that does a little bit better than the rest. It's not the class overperforming, it's the players. Competitive groups that play together for years, have extremely optimized group compositions and very skilled supports will always do better than casual players.
Honestly, I don't see a big problem with top-end groups stacking whatever they like because it's inconsequential for the majority of players, or even the majority of vet players. Balancing should focus around average raiders, and the class balace looks different among them. Not many groups are stacking dks in mid-tier, they mostly stack Oakensorcs.

Jaraal wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

The thing is, even if ZOS listens to this and nerfs dks, competitive guilds would find another class that does a little bit better than the rest. It's not the class overperforming, it's the players. Competitive groups that play together for years, have extremely optimized group compositions and very skilled supports will always do better than casual players.
Honestly, I don't see a big problem with top-end groups stacking whatever they like because it's inconsequential for the majority of players, or even the majority of vet players. Balancing should focus around average raiders, and the class balace looks different among them. Not many groups are stacking dks in mid-tier, they mostly stack Oakensorcs.

Have you been to Cyrodiil lately? 50% of the players there are DKs. If it was "the players," then class distribution would be even, based upon preferred playstyle, no? Or does the player seek the easiest route to winning?

The thread was about trials, though. I don't play pvp and in my opinion it should be balanced separately.

Skullstachio wrote: »

How is Fungal Growth dealing damage in that chart?

It's not.

That's the symbol being used to denote a warden healer who will be doing damage with wall, fetcher flies and light/heavy attacks

A problem with class balance is given, when some classes aren't viable anymore for clearing content. That's fortunately not the case in eso (I know also games where you are really excluded just by playing a class in endgame because developers broke them and they aren't able to pull the necessary numbers anymore.).

If a class is overperforming (so pulling better numbers than others), like DKs are clearly doing atm, this also should be adressed. And I'm sure it will be adressed, probably in O3.

Nonetheless nobody is forced to play DK just to clear any content in this game. Unfortunately this game's community always was looking for "meta" too much imo, so the constrictions regarding "viable" classes are made by the community not by the game itself.

If you nerf DK another meta will arise (it's not possible to balance them to be totally equal without killing off freedom of choice or setting a dps-limit), people will go looking what scorepushing groups are doing and try to copy that, some believing it will make them as good as this groups, some hoping for easier kills due to dps. (That's a fallacy btw, because all of this builds are high damage/high risk builds. It's standard to reset the whole trial after the first mastake/death and start all over.)

There is also an misunderstanding about dps, as we can see clearly if we look at sergeant brokensoul (yes I name it this way, because there a countless oaken builds, HA builds and oaken HA builds out there which do no harm to anybody). The dps a build is doing is one of several marks defining his efficiency. The others are survivability, sustainability, dependance of supporters and of course playability. All this systems are working together, that's why comparing only the dps a build is doing will always deliver wrong results.

The upcoming nerfs are a hotfix to prevent what's happening in vAS+2 , as it was never intended to clear that trial like this. Nobody else will suffer out of it.

I expect further adjustments in Q3 and Q4 nonetheless which will be targeted at DKs as well as (hopefully) a fundamental rework of HA builds to make more of them viable (this can be done by noticeable buff empower after sergeant's mail is reworked). In the current state there is no real build diversity for HA users, it's either sergeant's + lightning or it's not being viable for all content. That has to change imo.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Why is the auto response from the forums that things need to be nerfed?

This is pve.

Why not bring other classes up to what dks are doing?

Why nerf HA sorc? Why not raise up ha builds for the other classes?
EDIT: And weapon types?

It is easier to nerf DK than buff all the other classes. Additionally, raising the ceiling is a problem since it results in more mechanic skipping in the vast majority of content. HA sorc needs nerfed because it is performing too high in comparison to traditional builds, not because sorc is the best HA class.

Rkindaleft wrote: »

Maybe I’m still resentful but I lived through Murkmire, Dragonhold and Lost Depths (infamous U35) and I’m not denying that many endgame players left the game/stopped participating in high level content each time because they were nerfed (with U35 being the worst of the bunch) and yet the ones who stuck around managed to adapt.

Each and every time, the casual crowd who are mostly now all on HA Oaken told us we can adapt and it’s not the end of the world - this Empower nerf is a much more tame nerf than anything the endgame players of those eras received in these respective patches and yet I have seen more threads complaining about a relatively insignificant nerf to Empower than I saw threads for the huge nerfs in U35.

Yes. And now it’s “well you need more people in endgame” now that endgame is pretty much dead, completely ignoring the fact that it is dead because of all of those changes. The expectation should be no different. HA wants to be in endgame? Expect the same nerfs we get. People really should see that ZOS is for once, ever inching down a build with the intention of allowing it to perform at a certain level rather than flat-out obliterating it like they usually do.

It means absolutely nothing to me.

How does it make me feel?

A little sad, to be honest, that people can't just relax and enjoy a fantasy game for what it is and not turn it into another job.

derkaiserliche wrote: »

I would say people should tryhard less and start playing what they enjoy most and not whats currently the strongest.

People who main DK like DK.

Braffin wrote: »

I expect further adjustments in Q3 and Q4 nonetheless which will be targeted at DKs

Why would you expect that? ZOS has been told (and shown logs) of DKs overperforming for over a year, and what have they done every quarter? They have buffed the class. Whether it's by design or *accident* I'll leave to others to debate.

Jaraal wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I expect further adjustments in Q3 and Q4 nonetheless which will be targeted at DKs

Why would you expect that? ZOS has been told (and shown logs) of DKs overperforming for over a year, and what have they done every quarter? They have buffed the class. Whether it's by design or *accident* I'll leave to others to debate.

I play this game since day 1 (with some interruptions) and although zos may not always be the fastest when they are trying to balance things, they've done it every single time. DKs reigned all over the first year of the game, then they got nerfed into the ground and suffered for a long time (anyone remember the term "noodlewhip" for molten?) and are now on top again for quite a time.

I simply assume the restructured roadmap with a full quarter dedicated to fixing, balancing and improve existing things is done for a reason. It also makes sense to do it in the near future as after the arrival of arcanist I'm not expecting any major additions to the combat system in the next 2 years (if zos is still following the schedule they did for years now).

It's quite a normal cycle for any mmo I know, the meta is changing constantly and every change will have it's supporters and opponents.

The only hope I have is, that the upcoming nerfs to empower are signs of a new style of balancing in general and the nerfhammer, which was used in the past every single time is finally gone for good.

It shows how hybrid meta destroyed diversity

kringled_1 wrote: »

We've had all (mostly) necro, all sorc, and all nb raid comps before hybridization though. I haven't seen all templar/warden runs except for meme runs.

my very first vMoL clear was an 8 templar DPS composition (this was pre-Vvardenfell release).

Jaraal wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I play this game since day 1 (with some interruptions) and although zos may not always be the fastest when they are trying to balance things, they've done it every single time.

So, if they are aware that DK is overperforming and supposing it actually does take months or years to balance a class... why would they continue to make DK more powerful every quarter? Making an active change to improve a class shouldn't take any more or less time than making a nerf, should it?

Marcus684 wrote: »

I guess I'm struggling to understand why having DK at the top of the heap, or any class for that matter, is such a huge issue for some people that they get impatient for ZOS to nerf it. If the meta is magDK and you want to be meta, roll a magDK. If the meta becomes magNB or stamSorc or whatever, roll that. You could also just play what you want to play and accept that it might perform slightly below the best builds, or even above if your playstyle happens to jive with it better than the meta.

Before anyone cries, "Found the DK main", I don't have a main. I play every class and build at a decidedly average level, although I probably have the most fun on my magplar right now.

Probably not an issue for trials, because everybody wants to get in and get it done as fast as possible. Everybody wins. But in PvP, when your death recaps are mostly filled with DK skills and the majority of 1vXers and unkillable tanks are Dragonknights, it becomes annoying. Is the answer to "roll a magDK" and hope for a stalemate, or "play what you want to play" and spend a lot of time on the ground not earning AP, skill points, titles, dyes, furnishings, etc?

Nobody is denying that DKs are overperforming at the moment, especially in PvP (btw, I always voted for seperated balancing between PvE and PvP and simply can't help that zos is refusing to do so). I'm well aware of the current situation in PvP as well as the bad state this mode is in general.

To be honest, I haven't the slightest idea why the devs were thinking it would be a good idea to add major brutality to chains. Nonetheless this was a chance explicitely made for PvP, as nobody is using chains in PvE anyways and the devs know this very well. But as this thread was aimed at DKs performance in PvE all I said was also targeted at this part of the game, so I see no discrepancy between my opinion and your (in my opinion completely legitimate) complaints.

That said, yes, I also think PvP is treated badly by zos and that for years now. I'm not happy with that and as said before, simply can't chance that. And to be honest I personally lost hope that this will chance in the foreseeable future, neither in Q3 or Q4 nor anytime next year.