And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
This is really bad interpretation of data. One, there is no citation of the source of every fight. DPS is in a time domain, so fight time matters a lot. Are these parses in the same fight? Or did you take the highest two-bar DPS parse and the highest one-bar parse? The only way to compare two-bar and one-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. Fight time here is the most important factor as in shorter fights you do more damage as uptimes will average higher and hard hitting skills like your ultimate will have higher "uptime" as it will be running for more of the fight, any other comparison method is cherry-picking and is a disingenuous misrepresentation of data. You don't compare two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship.
PrincessOfThieves wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
Why not recruit 1 bar tanks and healers? I'm sure there's many 1 bar players who prefer support roles but think that support meta is too complicated.
Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
spartaxoxo wrote: »There is not. You won't find groups. It's not realistic at all.
spartaxoxo wrote: »There is not. You won't find groups. It's not realistic at all.
I enjoy doing an one bar tank build and wouldn't mind playing with other one-bar builds for veteran content, as long as a decent minimum is met which for most runs each DPS player really only need to achieve at least 50k to 60k (if even that)... You really only need much higher DPS for speedruns or if you just wanna skip mechanics.
I don't think it's a healthy idea to discourage or outright gatekeep players from playing veteran content if they can achieve it and perform well. I can understand if it is strictly impossible due to low skill and bad builds, but if their builds are working and do achieve decent numbers then why discourage it? Why gatekeep it? Why be so angry about it? Let people try to find like-minded individuals, let people find others to play with. This is an MMO after-all, it's honestly and arguably possible to get a fully one-bar veteran trial guilds set-up and have all of this be a thing.
In other words, it's very realistic and very possible.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.
Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.
YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »So tell me about a ha build without owken soul. I will not be serving so will never have any mythics
isadoraisacat wrote: »beer781993 wrote: »Seeing people achieve immortal redeemer and dawnbringer in less than 3 weeks with 1 Bar builds, kinda makes me sad. Now they go for Godslayer. I know every player in that group on ps5 and I also know that they couldn't even clear the hardmode without 1 bar sorcs.
I needed months on a regular setup to achieve that and it was very sweaty. We thought we achieved something special but now we asked ourselves: "have we waisted our time".
Older titles are already easy to do with medium armor and that made the titles worth less already but that 1 bar thing absolutely annihilated any worth the titles ever had. Literally anyone can do this. You can stand in every Aoe, don't need to think and just hold 1 button. Don't know why all people embrace this.
Clearing dungeons and vet trials with this is fine but being able to clear trifectas effortless is another story, that's why I am greatful for the nerfs. It won't be useless, you can still clear all vet content but you probably won't be able to get trifectas done in time which is a good thing.
People are against having to practice nowadays, they expect the game to be changed to cater to them. A shame really. I still live by practice makes perfect.
[snip] some players are good at the game but have physical limitations that make continuous play not possible with weaving style play ?
[snip] some players just want o play solo and do their own thing and like this build becuase it’s more fun and isn’t guitar hero click click click ? And won’t affect your PvP or your trial stuff becusse they will never be in them ?
[snip] maybe you are expecting the game to cater to you ? By calling for nerfs against a play style mostly used by solo and casual players who have and never will have anything to do with your elite groups ?
[snip] it affects players for various reasons a vast majority who will never affect you all because a few Elite players exploited the build for high results.
[snip]
[Edited for minor baiting]
isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
The issue at hand is that top-tier players do not value HA builds as highly as other builds, as evidenced by their ability to parse up to 135k on a dummy and maintain that damage output within trials.
Players with strong rotations can still manage to parse around 110k, which is a 25k decrease from the top-tier players. However, those who rely on HA builds may only be able to parse around 80k, a significant 55k decrease from top-tier players.
Unfortunately, this means that certain challenging activities like vTrial HM will become impossible for HA users to complete, finding progression groups will be extremely difficult without outside resources like Discord. These groups will require extensive log and parse analysis before even considering allowing HA to join, which puts HA users at a disadvantage as they may not be able to produce the high DPS numbers that these groups are looking for, not even close now. It's clear that nerfing HA will be a gameover for players who rely on these builds to hunt HM.
This is what it's all about. It's a well-known fact that this is currently happening in the game. To participate in HM, you need to join Discord. While Zenimax may not be able to do anything about it (although they could), you need to post your parse and the raid leader may choose who to bring along. However, some players have higher parses, such as 135k or 110k, compared to others who have 80k HA (100k without nerf). It's understandable why the raid leader might not choose someone with lower DPS. Why would they? Out of pity?
Initially, ZeniMax sold Oakensoul, and later on, they nearly caused a gameover situation for players who were undertaking challenging trials such as vCR +1/2/3. Now, it seems like ZeniMax will prevent all users of HA from accessing the game's most difficult content. If this nerf is implemented, it's evident that the consequences will be severe.
It’s a shame because players like me CAN weave and can do all the things other players do. The problem is I can’t do it for more than one 5 minutes without exteme severe pain, due to carpal
Tunnel and 2 injuries which messed up the nerves in my fingers on top of it.
So for me the only way I can be consistent is using a heavy attack build. Not everyone who is doing these builds is doing it because they are lazy, or whatever it may be. It’s a shame they will deny access to more players. I think as long as you get the job done it shouldn’t matter how you did it.
Hopefully they are listening to peoples opinions on this issue.
Have you considered swapping to controller? It is in fact GOOD for treating your ailment.Hapexamendios wrote: »
For effort required, it is OP.isadoraisacat wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »
Yeah I certainly don’t feel “over powered” now I feel like average player where as before a below average player in terms of damage output.
With the amount of effort and practice required for a heavy attack build, it should not be as strong as the better builds, it should be ok, at best.
You don’t think I put in effort and practice to already master weaving ? Because I did. Except I don’t like that play style and it’s not comfortable due to issues with my hand and no I’m not going to swap to a controller to do a play style I don’t enjoy.
People master it because it’s the only way to play not because it’s a good way to play it’s a bug that was never fixed and forced on the players because a few of them for whatever reason likes their character to look like they are having convulsions and playing a game of medieval guitar hero instead of an elder scrolls game.
Maybe some people are here for THE ELDER SCROLLS and are trying to find ways to enjoy the game because the combat is not fun to them but the rest of the game is great.
Maybe some people have physical limitations…
There is all sorts of reasons why people want to use this build but it doesn’t mean they can’t weave or did not practice on a dummy for hours prior to using this build (because I definitely did).
isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
The issue at hand is that top-tier players do not value HA builds as highly as other builds, as evidenced by their ability to parse up to 135k on a dummy and maintain that damage output within trials.
Players with strong rotations can still manage to parse around 110k, which is a 25k decrease from the top-tier players. However, those who rely on HA builds may only be able to parse around 80k, a significant 55k decrease from top-tier players.
Unfortunately, this means that certain challenging activities like vTrial HM will become impossible for HA users to complete, finding progression groups will be extremely difficult without outside resources like Discord. These groups will require extensive log and parse analysis before even considering allowing HA to join, which puts HA users at a disadvantage as they may not be able to produce the high DPS numbers that these groups are looking for, not even close now. It's clear that nerfing HA will be a gameover for players who rely on these builds to hunt HM.
This is what it's all about. It's a well-known fact that this is currently happening in the game. To participate in HM, you need to join Discord. While Zenimax may not be able to do anything about it (although they could), you need to post your parse and the raid leader may choose who to bring along. However, some players have higher parses, such as 135k or 110k, compared to others who have 80k HA (100k without nerf). It's understandable why the raid leader might not choose someone with lower DPS. Why would they? Out of pity?
Initially, ZeniMax sold Oakensoul, and later on, they nearly caused a gameover situation for players who were undertaking challenging trials such as vCR +1/2/3. Now, it seems like ZeniMax will prevent all users of HA from accessing the game's most difficult content. If this nerf is implemented, it's evident that the consequences will be severe.
It’s a shame because players like me CAN weave and can do all the things other players do. The problem is I can’t do it for more than one 5 minutes without exteme severe pain, due to carpal
Tunnel and 2 injuries which messed up the nerves in my fingers on top of it.
So for me the only way I can be consistent is using a heavy attack build. Not everyone who is doing these builds is doing it because they are lazy, or whatever it may be. It’s a shame they will deny access to more players. I think as long as you get the job done it shouldn’t matter how you did it.
Hopefully they are listening to peoples opinions on this issue.
Have you considered swapping to controller? It is in fact GOOD for treating your ailment.Hapexamendios wrote: »
For effort required, it is OP.isadoraisacat wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »
Yeah I certainly don’t feel “over powered” now I feel like average player where as before a below average player in terms of damage output.
With the amount of effort and practice required for a heavy attack build, it should not be as strong as the better builds, it should be ok, at best.
I don’t like controllers. I never use them it’s not for me. This is an elder scrolls game I started on a keyboard and will end on a keyboard. Unless you are a doctor please don’t talk to me about medical treatments.
It still isn’t as strong as other builds except for a very very very small minority who can exploit it the vast majority using the build aren’t passing 20-30k on a normal dummy and are low level players.
I also don’t like the weaving style it reminds me off guitar hero, I prefer the heavy attack style because it’s closer to Skyrim in a more relaxed less “twitch reaction” game play style.
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patch ?LeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patch ?
For context, I don't mind HA or Oakensoul builds and they can stay as they are for all I care. They lift the floor for newer, less experienced, or disabled players who struggle with weaving required for LA builds. These groups can now go from struggling with 40k DPS to easily reaching 80k, allowing them to join more advanced content, which is great.
But if the question is whether HA/Oakensoul builds are overpowered, it makes no sense to compare them to meta LA parses like the ones shown by OP, who does 120k DPS and thinks a weaving average of 0.106 is sub-par. We all agree that the top 1% or 0.1% in this game can and will do better with their LA setups when it comes to highscores. The question is whether ZOS raised the floor too much for the aforementioned target groups by skyrocketing their (single-target and AoE) damage, increasing survivability, and eliminating sustain issues.
Again, I don't think HA builds must be nerfed, but it's weird to constantly see comparisons with the top of leaderboards, which are meaningless for the vast majority of players.
If HA wasn't truly good and strong, then why are so many people using it? LOLIf HA is truly good and strong, then why don't top-tier players use it all the time? LOL
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
I will make my point again:
- HA builds are amazing, because they raised the floor for certain players who previously struggled with their DPS. Whether you are a beginner, a casual player, disabled, or just don't want to weave, it provides a viable and easy to reach up to 80k DPS by literally holding down the mouse button.
- NOBODY denies that a top-tier player can reach significantly higher DPS with LA builds. But many players don't, so for them HA builds are "truly good and strong". For many players, they have doubled or tripled their damage output while decreasing the effort and improving survivability.
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patch ?LeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL