The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 12, 2023 5:45PM4 -
Heelie✭✭✭✭✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
This is really bad interpretation of data. One, there is no citation of the source of every fight. DPS is in a time domain, so fight time matters a lot. Are these parses in the same fight? Or did you take the highest two-bar DPS parse and the highest one-bar parse? The only way to compare two-bar and one-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. Fight time here is the most important factor as in shorter fights you do more damage as uptimes will average higher and hard hitting skills like your ultimate will have higher "uptime" as it will be running for more of the fight, any other comparison method is cherry-picking and is a disingenuous misrepresentation of data. You don't compare two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship.Most OwOrated healer of all time6 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?1 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 12, 2023 8:02PM4 -
Dunning_Kruger✭✭✭✭While I disagree with OPs opinion heavy attack builds on where they should exist I have felt the pain like all ESO players about your play style being nerfed (looking at you 3-tick biting jabs and burning light). I think HA builds absolutely should be viable but not optimal. If they can truly do 90k dps on pts I think that’s more than acceptable for a spec that can be played with a one line auto hit key input. I’m not sure they nerfed this due to pvp since generally you can just topple/ take flight/ ambush and instantly delete most heavy attack builds and they are no where near the level they use to be with empower working in pvp, so maybe it was done for a power reduction in pve to make it less rewarding vs effort.____________________________________
A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>
For the Queen bby1 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
Why not recruit 1 bar tanks and healers? I'm sure there's many 1 bar players who prefer support roles but think that support meta is too complicated.
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loveeso✭✭✭✭My previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7870041#Comment_7870041Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
This is really bad interpretation of data. One, there is no citation of the source of every fight. DPS is in a time domain, so fight time matters a lot. Are these parses in the same fight? Or did you take the highest two-bar DPS parse and the highest one-bar parse? The only way to compare two-bar and one-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. Fight time here is the most important factor as in shorter fights you do more damage as uptimes will average higher and hard hitting skills like your ultimate will have higher "uptime" as it will be running for more of the fight, any other comparison method is cherry-picking and is a disingenuous misrepresentation of data. You don't compare two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship.
After a careful review of the reply, it is evident that it is replete with numerous erroneous claims and misunderstandings about data analysis.
First of all, the source of the data is provided and easily identifiable. This means that anyone can go and check the database to verify the data. Moreover, the report does not cherry-pick data; rather, it presents the highest achieved DPS in the world for each boss fight for both playstyles.
Secondly, since, again, as clearly stated, it compares the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight, the specific fight times and contexts are irrelevant to the comparison of the playstyles, as each playstyle is being evaluated based on their overall performance across multiple fights.
Thirdly, the critique goes on to suggest that the only way to compare one-bar and two-bar DPS is to compare two players in the same fight performing the same role. This assertion is flawed because it is possible to compare DPS metrics across different fights. In fact, comparing metrics like DPS across multiple events (fights) is a common practice in many statistical analyses.
Fourthly, the claim that fight time is the most important factor when comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is a gross oversimplification. While fight time is undoubtedly an important factor to consider, there are several other variables that must be controlled for, such as the player's gear, build, skill rotation, and boss mechanics. Ignoring these other variables could lead to biased or erroneous conclusions. Fortunately, we are protected from errors like this by choosing an aggregated statistic such as the top DPS per playstyle which factors in all relevant factors. DPS takes into account not only the duration of the fight but also the damage output achieved during that time, as well as the many other factors that contribute to a player's or group's performance in a boss fight. By using DPS as a comparative metric, we are able to consider all of these relevant factors together in a single measure, which helps to reduce the impact of individual variations or outliers. This makes it easier to draw meaningful and accurate conclusions about the relative effectiveness of different playstyles, gear, builds, skill rotations, and boss mechanics, without being misled by oversimplified or incomplete analyses.
Fifthly, your statement contains an erroneous assumption that the uptimes of skills and ultimates are always inversely proportional to the length of the boss fight. This assumption is false, as demonstrated by the example of continuously casting Wall of Elements for 100% uptime during both a 35-second and a one-hour-long fight. Similarly, your assertion about Ultimates is not universally true, as demonstrated by the possibility of a lower uptime for the same ultimate in a 55-second fight compared to a 70-second fight.
Moreover, your attempting to challenge the notion that LADDs are already significantly more powerful than HADDs this way is quite amusing, as it actually reinforces my argument that groups comprised of LADDs inflict substantially more damage than those composed of HADDs. Your argument suggests that LADDs may not have as high of a DPS as the data indicates, due to their ability to complete fights more quickly. However, this is precisely why groups consisting of LADDs are able to inflict more damage than those comprised of HADDs. This is because DPS is a function of time, and shorter durations correspond to higher DPS.
Lastly, the analogy of comparing two race cars driving on two different days to decide a championship is irrelevant and misleading. Comparing one-bar and two-bar DPS is not analogous to comparing two different races on different days. A better analogy would be comparing the lap times of two different race cars on the same track, with the same weather conditions. Fortunately for us, the weather is always the same in boss fights.
In conclusion, the report's interpretation of the data is not flawed, as the report uses a valid methodology to compare the world-best DPS achieved by each playstyle player in each boss fight. Your critique's assertions that the source of every fight needs citation, fight time matters more, and comparing two race cars is a better analogy are not valid.
It is essential to approach data analysis with rigor and objectivity and avoid making unfounded assertions that could lead to erroneous conclusions.Edited by loveeso on May 13, 2023 1:27PM10 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
Why not recruit 1 bar tanks and healers? I'm sure there's many 1 bar players who prefer support roles but think that support meta is too complicated.
There is not. You won't find groups. It's not realistic at all. It doesn't happen in any real number and that's explicitly the reason cited for why they were working on lowering the gap in the first place. So people had a chance to participate in vet content. It does not happen. Players do not get groups with under 75k damage for the vet content these builds enabled participation in.
The developers based their decisions on in part on the gap being too wide resulting in zero participation for the vast majority of players. Nobody wanted these people in their groups and these people felt too discouraged to keep trying to enter vet because they "weren't good enough."
Edited by spartaxoxo on May 13, 2023 7:53PM5 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7869559#Comment_7869559Stop the HA Hate: How Actual Fight Data Shows the Truth About Playstyle Balance
or
Don't Nerf, Just Improve Your LA Skills to Win
Well, well, well, guys, look at this one picture here. It's as if the data below is screaming "DUH!" so loudly, I'm surprised any player wouldn't hear it from a mile away. If anyone still has any doubts after looking at this, they might as well argue that the sky is yellow and water is dry
However, it's not enough. HA is not better than 2 bars and HA is not stronger than 2 bars.
Therefore, Zenimax needs to create in-game balance by nerfing weaker builds that are almost as strong as the strongest ones.
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Kusto✭✭✭✭✭This whole thread makes no sense. Most people who defend oaken HA here either seem to have disability or just unable hit any decent numbers for some other reason. That's fair. But at the same time last year the same people were only spamming bow light attacks in dungeons doing 5k dps. High Isle gave them 300-400% dps buff thanks to the oaken HA build which is now being nerfed 5-10%. So how can anyone say things like "nerfed to the ground ", "useless ", "left out of content " and other similar doom and gloom? You are still in way better position than you were a year ago. You can still do everything you can do today.
Some people are never happy. That's just greedy.11 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire. Downstairs could propably fail DPS check and adds wouldn't be killed quick enough on last boss. I wouldn't consider Sunspire as an old trial also. It's the first of the new generation of trials where every boss have separate HM. Trials that were designed to be harder than craglorn ones where 60k DPS would be enough.
Nobody is stopping 60k DPS DD from becoming tank or healer. I wonder if he would be taking 60k DPS DDs into his team the same way he is expecting to be taken into the teams.
Also as it has been said many times already. Getting 75-80k on a dummy in HA setup is easy it have nothing to do with a player's skill since it requires none, so if people can't reach that DPS treshold they are making some collosal mistakes or they are lacking some key compotents needed for a complete setup. Veteran trials cannot be balanced around people who are lacking understanding of the basics.Edited by Galeriano on May 14, 2023 12:43AM3 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 14, 2023 1:05AM8 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
60k is fine for vet Sunspire. It's up to individual guild/raid lead to ask whatever they want though. If your guild asks 80k for vSS then you may wanna look for another guild. Some guilds may ask for 100k but that doesn't mean its needed to clear it. There are plenty chill casual guilds who only ask 50-60k. At least on PC/NA. Alot of high end guilds just wanna skip mechanics that's why the high requirements.
The only hard dps check in vSS is the last boss portals. And that's ridiculously low. The cat that needs to be killed in there has 3.6mil hp and you have 90 seconds to do it before it wipes group. 3 people will go portal and they each only need to hit 13.3k lol. But you have to do all the mechanics.
60k on 21mil dummy translates about 30k on non buffed dummy. In content, even if pug, you still get some buffs like minor and major breach from tank, healer maybe has SPC and maybe someone does occasional horn etc. So you should definitely hit 40k in content with any group. Now theres 8 DDs hitting 40k each that's 300k lol. If someone says that's not enough to kill the dragons then they're just trying to gatekeep. And don't forget that HA has insane aoe. So the last boss adds are no issue either.4 -
YetAnotherLinuxUser✭✭✭✭So tell me about a ha build without oaken soul. I will not be scrying so will never have any mythicsEdited by YetAnotherLinuxUser on May 14, 2023 11:52AM0
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 14, 2023 5:30AM0 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.2 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.5 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I didn't say top tier. I said everyone can do 70-80k with the right build. Your "top" players hit 100k with it. I hit 100k with it and I'm far from top. I can only get slightly over 100k with 2 bar builds.0 -
Jusey1✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »There is not. You won't find groups. It's not realistic at all.
I enjoy doing an one bar tank build and wouldn't mind playing with other one-bar builds for veteran content, as long as a decent minimum is met which for most runs each DPS player really only need to achieve at least 50k to 60k (if even that)... You really only need much higher DPS for speedruns or if you just wanna skip mechanics.
I don't think it's a healthy idea to discourage or outright gatekeep players from playing veteran content if they can achieve it and perform well. I can understand if it is strictly impossible due to low skill and bad builds, but if their builds are working and do achieve decent numbers then why discourage it? Why gatekeep it? Why be so angry about it? Let people try to find like-minded individuals, let people find others to play with. This is an MMO after-all, it's honestly and arguably possible to get a fully one-bar veteran trial guilds set-up and have all of this be a thing.
In other words, it's very realistic and very possible.4 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »There is not. You won't find groups. It's not realistic at all.
I enjoy doing an one bar tank build and wouldn't mind playing with other one-bar builds for veteran content, as long as a decent minimum is met which for most runs each DPS player really only need to achieve at least 50k to 60k (if even that)... You really only need much higher DPS for speedruns or if you just wanna skip mechanics.
I don't think it's a healthy idea to discourage or outright gatekeep players from playing veteran content if they can achieve it and perform well. I can understand if it is strictly impossible due to low skill and bad builds, but if their builds are working and do achieve decent numbers then why discourage it? Why gatekeep it? Why be so angry about it? Let people try to find like-minded individuals, let people find others to play with. This is an MMO after-all, it's honestly and arguably possible to get a fully one-bar veteran trial guilds set-up and have all of this be a thing.
In other words, it's very realistic and very possible.
It isn't possible for a realistic number of people. And I'm not gonna support nerfing the damage of the heavy attack builds that have completely revitalized the ability for people to find trials groups by pretending that very rare circumstances of people able to find those groups is somehow a realistic solution that regularly happens for people who want to find groups.
I have seen it with my own eyes. People overjoyed (one girl literally cried) because they finally, finally found a group. They were 60k players and they didn't find groups. They switched to 80k players with these builds and suddenly were welcome. They got to do content they never thought was possible. That shouldn't be taken away ZOS suddenly decides to nerf things down to the point that these people cannot even participate in the trials.
ETA
The LA build rejection isn't just about "skill." Many people find these builds physically painful it is a common complaint. Repetitive stress use injuries or whatever it's called are a real thing. It is common in games that have these kind of higher APM playstyles.
There should be alternatives to them.Edited by spartaxoxo on May 14, 2023 7:17AM11 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.
Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.Edited by Kusto on May 14, 2023 9:12AM5 -
spartaxoxo wrote: »They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.
Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.
That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.
I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.
Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.
Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL3 -
YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »So tell me about a ha build without owken soul. I will not be serving so will never have any mythics
Nice to meet a fellow Linux user! Welcome! In one of my guilds the guild master is a great theory crafter and created several such builds (both one and two bar) long before influencers started talking about one bar heavy attack builds. The guild leadership decided to try help people to be able to get into trials, hard modes and trifectas and even tried to create a stable core group just for heavy attack builds back then. Unfortunately people are shy and afraid of joining trials or even dungeons because of trolling from toxic players and there is still no stable group in that guild (they did get new people to get some hard modes which was nice). I was thinking about joining just to help but I didn't have time to get the oaken build, I prefer playing with my DK. Anyway, here is one such simple build:
Oakensoulless Pillar (this is how he named it)
Gear
2xIceheart
5xPillar (body)
5xSergeant (front shock staff + jewellery)
1xMaelstrom inferno (back)
Skills
F: trap, hardened ward, hurricane, bound aegis, inner light, attro
B: critical surge, unstable wall, scalding rune, bound aegis, inner light, flawless dawnbreaker
Rotation
BB (every 10s): LA 1 (if ending) LA 2 LA 3, bar swap
FB: 3xHA (weave 1 & 3 to have 100% uptime), bar swap
Apparently it has all the important buffs you get from Oakensoul but it's for standard groups so assumes that mt wears yolna.
There are many other variants for sorcerers, wardens, EC, kilt, Depths, Siroria, Storm Master and so on but you get the idea. They are super durable, great healing, and without any pets do up to 80k.2 -
Jammy420✭✭✭✭✭
✭isadoraisacat wrote: »beer781993 wrote: »Seeing people achieve immortal redeemer and dawnbringer in less than 3 weeks with 1 Bar builds, kinda makes me sad. Now they go for Godslayer. I know every player in that group on ps5 and I also know that they couldn't even clear the hardmode without 1 bar sorcs.
I needed months on a regular setup to achieve that and it was very sweaty. We thought we achieved something special but now we asked ourselves: "have we waisted our time".
Older titles are already easy to do with medium armor and that made the titles worth less already but that 1 bar thing absolutely annihilated any worth the titles ever had. Literally anyone can do this. You can stand in every Aoe, don't need to think and just hold 1 button. Don't know why all people embrace this.
Clearing dungeons and vet trials with this is fine but being able to clear trifectas effortless is another story, that's why I am greatful for the nerfs. It won't be useless, you can still clear all vet content but you probably won't be able to get trifectas done in time which is a good thing.
People are against having to practice nowadays, they expect the game to be changed to cater to them. A shame really. I still live by practice makes perfect.
[snip] some players are good at the game but have physical limitations that make continuous play not possible with weaving style play ?
[snip] some players just want o play solo and do their own thing and like this build becuase it’s more fun and isn’t guitar hero click click click ? And won’t affect your PvP or your trial stuff becusse they will never be in them ?
[snip] maybe you are expecting the game to cater to you ? By calling for nerfs against a play style mostly used by solo and casual players who have and never will have anything to do with your elite groups ?
[snip] it affects players for various reasons a vast majority who will never affect you all because a few Elite players exploited the build for high results.
[snip]
[Edited for minor baiting]
People want the heavy attack to be changed to be as powerful as meta builds, and that never was a thing, so what youre saying is categorically wrong.isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
The issue at hand is that top-tier players do not value HA builds as highly as other builds, as evidenced by their ability to parse up to 135k on a dummy and maintain that damage output within trials.
Players with strong rotations can still manage to parse around 110k, which is a 25k decrease from the top-tier players. However, those who rely on HA builds may only be able to parse around 80k, a significant 55k decrease from top-tier players.
Unfortunately, this means that certain challenging activities like vTrial HM will become impossible for HA users to complete, finding progression groups will be extremely difficult without outside resources like Discord. These groups will require extensive log and parse analysis before even considering allowing HA to join, which puts HA users at a disadvantage as they may not be able to produce the high DPS numbers that these groups are looking for, not even close now. It's clear that nerfing HA will be a gameover for players who rely on these builds to hunt HM.
This is what it's all about. It's a well-known fact that this is currently happening in the game. To participate in HM, you need to join Discord. While Zenimax may not be able to do anything about it (although they could), you need to post your parse and the raid leader may choose who to bring along. However, some players have higher parses, such as 135k or 110k, compared to others who have 80k HA (100k without nerf). It's understandable why the raid leader might not choose someone with lower DPS. Why would they? Out of pity?
Initially, ZeniMax sold Oakensoul, and later on, they nearly caused a gameover situation for players who were undertaking challenging trials such as vCR +1/2/3. Now, it seems like ZeniMax will prevent all users of HA from accessing the game's most difficult content. If this nerf is implemented, it's evident that the consequences will be severe.
It’s a shame because players like me CAN weave and can do all the things other players do. The problem is I can’t do it for more than one 5 minutes without exteme severe pain, due to carpal
Tunnel and 2 injuries which messed up the nerves in my fingers on top of it.
So for me the only way I can be consistent is using a heavy attack build. Not everyone who is doing these builds is doing it because they are lazy, or whatever it may be. It’s a shame they will deny access to more players. I think as long as you get the job done it shouldn’t matter how you did it.
Hopefully they are listening to peoples opinions on this issue.
Have you considered swapping to controller? It is in fact GOOD for treating your ailment.Hapexamendios wrote: »
For effort required, it is OP.isadoraisacat wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »
Yeah I certainly don’t feel “over powered” now I feel like average player where as before a below average player in terms of damage output.
With the amount of effort and practice required for a heavy attack build, it should not be as strong as the better builds, it should be ok, at best.
You don’t think I put in effort and practice to already master weaving ? Because I did. Except I don’t like that play style and it’s not comfortable due to issues with my hand and no I’m not going to swap to a controller to do a play style I don’t enjoy.
People master it because it’s the only way to play not because it’s a good way to play it’s a bug that was never fixed and forced on the players because a few of them for whatever reason likes their character to look like they are having convulsions and playing a game of medieval guitar hero instead of an elder scrolls game.
Maybe some people are here for THE ELDER SCROLLS and are trying to find ways to enjoy the game because the combat is not fun to them but the rest of the game is great.
Maybe some people have physical limitations…
There is all sorts of reasons why people want to use this build but it doesn’t mean they can’t weave or did not practice on a dummy for hours prior to using this build (because I definitely did).
weaving was introduced, and embraced by zos on purpose. Animation cancellations were nerfed way back because it indeed was not intended. Weaving, was, and always will be intended. I dont know where people get this from when it was included in every state of combat letter since forever.isadoraisacat wrote: »isadoraisacat wrote: »Top tier players are not even running with this setup so it's hardly a decision based around them. It's mid and low tier players that still want to play something else that got affected the most by oakensoul HA setups.
No nerfs since then. You can still get over 80k on live server by pressing 1 button.
The issue at hand is that top-tier players do not value HA builds as highly as other builds, as evidenced by their ability to parse up to 135k on a dummy and maintain that damage output within trials.
Players with strong rotations can still manage to parse around 110k, which is a 25k decrease from the top-tier players. However, those who rely on HA builds may only be able to parse around 80k, a significant 55k decrease from top-tier players.
Unfortunately, this means that certain challenging activities like vTrial HM will become impossible for HA users to complete, finding progression groups will be extremely difficult without outside resources like Discord. These groups will require extensive log and parse analysis before even considering allowing HA to join, which puts HA users at a disadvantage as they may not be able to produce the high DPS numbers that these groups are looking for, not even close now. It's clear that nerfing HA will be a gameover for players who rely on these builds to hunt HM.
This is what it's all about. It's a well-known fact that this is currently happening in the game. To participate in HM, you need to join Discord. While Zenimax may not be able to do anything about it (although they could), you need to post your parse and the raid leader may choose who to bring along. However, some players have higher parses, such as 135k or 110k, compared to others who have 80k HA (100k without nerf). It's understandable why the raid leader might not choose someone with lower DPS. Why would they? Out of pity?
Initially, ZeniMax sold Oakensoul, and later on, they nearly caused a gameover situation for players who were undertaking challenging trials such as vCR +1/2/3. Now, it seems like ZeniMax will prevent all users of HA from accessing the game's most difficult content. If this nerf is implemented, it's evident that the consequences will be severe.
It’s a shame because players like me CAN weave and can do all the things other players do. The problem is I can’t do it for more than one 5 minutes without exteme severe pain, due to carpal
Tunnel and 2 injuries which messed up the nerves in my fingers on top of it.
So for me the only way I can be consistent is using a heavy attack build. Not everyone who is doing these builds is doing it because they are lazy, or whatever it may be. It’s a shame they will deny access to more players. I think as long as you get the job done it shouldn’t matter how you did it.
Hopefully they are listening to peoples opinions on this issue.
Have you considered swapping to controller? It is in fact GOOD for treating your ailment.Hapexamendios wrote: »
For effort required, it is OP.isadoraisacat wrote: »Hapexamendios wrote: »
Yeah I certainly don’t feel “over powered” now I feel like average player where as before a below average player in terms of damage output.
With the amount of effort and practice required for a heavy attack build, it should not be as strong as the better builds, it should be ok, at best.
I don’t like controllers. I never use them it’s not for me. This is an elder scrolls game I started on a keyboard and will end on a keyboard. Unless you are a doctor please don’t talk to me about medical treatments.
It still isn’t as strong as other builds except for a very very very small minority who can exploit it the vast majority using the build aren’t passing 20-30k on a normal dummy and are low level players.
I also don’t like the weaving style it reminds me off guitar hero, I prefer the heavy attack style because it’s closer to Skyrim in a more relaxed less “twitch reaction” game play style.
I in fact did train to be a physical therapist, and was a surgeons assistant. We used controllers to help with what you are describing. So you dont like it, thats valid. But its also valid not to want the game changed because there are alternatives people just dont want to use.1 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patchLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL
?
For context, I don't mind HA or Oakensoul builds and they can stay as they are for all I care. They lift the floor for newer, less experienced, or disabled players who struggle with weaving required for LA builds. These groups can now go from struggling with 40k DPS to easily reaching 80k, allowing them to join more advanced content, which is great.
But if the question is whether HA/Oakensoul builds are overpowered, it makes no sense to compare them to meta LA parses like the ones shown by OP, who does 120k DPS and thinks a weaving average of 0.106 is sub-par. We all agree that the top 1% or 0.1% in this game can and will do better with their LA setups when it comes to highscores. The question is whether ZOS raised the floor too much for the aforementioned target groups by skyrocketing their (single-target and AoE) damage, increasing survivability, and eliminating sustain issues.
Again, I don't think HA builds must be nerfed, but it's weird to constantly see comparisons with the top of leaderboards, which are meaningless for the vast majority of players.2 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭If HASo why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patch?
For context, I don't mind HA or Oakensoul builds and they can stay as they are for all I care. They lift the floor for newer, less experienced, or disabled players who struggle with weaving required for LA builds. These groups can now go from struggling with 40k DPS to easily reaching 80k, allowing them to join more advanced content, which is great.
But if the question is whether HA/Oakensoul builds are overpowered, it makes no sense to compare them to meta LA parses like the ones shown by OP, who does 120k DPS and thinks a weaving average of 0.106 is sub-par. We all agree that the top 1% or 0.1% in this game can and will do better with their LA setups when it comes to highscores. The question is whether ZOS raised the floor too much for the aforementioned target groups by skyrocketing their (single-target and AoE) damage, increasing survivability, and eliminating sustain issues.
Again, I don't think HA builds must be nerfed, but it's weird to constantly see comparisons with the top of leaderboards, which are meaningless for the vast majority of players.
If HA is truly good and strong, then why don't top-tier players use it all the time? LOL3 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
If HA wasn't truly good and strong, then why are so many people using it? LOLIf HA is truly good and strong, then why don't top-tier players use it all the time? LOL
I will make my point again:- HA builds are amazing, because they raised the floor for certain players who previously struggled with their DPS. Whether you are a beginner, a casual player, disabled, or just don't want to weave, it provides a viable and easy to reach up to 80k DPS by literally holding down the mouse button.
- NOBODY denies that a top-tier player can reach significantly higher DPS with LA builds. But many players don't, so for them HA builds are "truly good and strong". For many players, they have doubled or tripled their damage output while decreasing the effort and improving survivability.
1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »And HA builds, as shown by players on both sides of the argument here, are completely capable of doing 80k, 90k, even 100k DPS, clearing that 75k threshold.
Just a reminder, my posts were refuting the idea that 60k was enough. It is not. Anything below 75-80 is not. It's unfortunately not how the game is played. It may be enough for older trials on paper, but the way the players actually play the game it has long moved past that number.
What's stopping HA players from making their own groups and playing with lower DPS when lot of content is doable with it?
Good luck finding someone who wants to tank and heal a vet suspire because some mediocre DPS wants to run it and knows that 60k DPS is technically acceptable.
60k DPS on a trial dumny is not acceptable in vet Sunspire.
Yes. You must have 75k-80k dps. That trial is years old. Nobody wants a 60k DPS, therefore the minimum DPS that a heavy attack build can be nerfed to is 75-80k. Not the 60k proposed earlier in the thread that keeps being floated around as a standard it should hit because it's good enough for vet. It's not.
You completly missed the context of what I said. 60k on a trial dummy is not accpeted in vet sunspire not because of requirements of other players but because of requirements of the trial itself. If You have a group of people who are doing 60k DPS on a trial dummy they will just fail DPS checks in that particular trial because 60k on a dummy does not transfer into 60k in a trial.
The less DPS You have on a dummy the less You will produce in real content. This is why most people now require 75-80k because it's extremly easy to achieve, it's basically a bottomline of what is achievable so if someone is not achieving that numbers it means there are high chances in real content he will be producing too low numbers because something is definietly wrong if he cannot reach easily reachable baseline.
It's all about the point of refference. If max DPS of some setup is 100k and 80% of it is easily reachable than if someone is reaching only 60% of it You know something is wrong and he will have issues in real content. He is doing enough numbers on a dummy but that doesn't change a fact that something is wrong if he cannot break easily reachable 80% treshold. If for example max DPS of HA setups would be 80k than 60k would become a number that is more respected. it was the same with LA setups. When 110k was top DPS parse people getting 60k were considered ready for vet trials, but they are not right now and bosses suddenly didn't become harder in fact their HP was universally lowered at some point.Edited by Galeriano on May 14, 2023 3:12PM0 -
Tradewind✭✭✭✭I will make my point again:
- HA builds are amazing, because they raised the floor for certain players who previously struggled with their DPS. Whether you are a beginner, a casual player, disabled, or just don't want to weave, it provides a viable and easy to reach up to 80k DPS by literally holding down the mouse button.
- NOBODY denies that a top-tier player can reach significantly higher DPS with LA builds. But many players don't, so for them HA builds are "truly good and strong". For many players, they have doubled or tripled their damage output while decreasing the effort and improving survivability.
You know, you can use the HA build too if it is better than yours. Or, you can switch to LA and hit 130k. I will switch to LA easily if there is any way for me to make more DPS than HA.Edited by Tradewind on May 14, 2023 2:14PM3 -
So why doesn't every HA player just switch to this supposedly super easy build when their build gets nerfed to the ground in the next patchLeeLooWasHere wrote: »Why limit yourself to only 80k when you can just use the "one-skill light-attack god" build that the OP posted earlier in this thread? Just press two same buttons and get 87k LOL?
Probably because no influencer made a video so they don't know such easy light attack builds are possible??
As @Tradewind already asked, if HA is so super strong then why dont all those light attack players who do as little or less damage as those oaken builds don't just switch to oaken builds instead of calling for Zenimax to nerf others?
But that's beside the point, the point is why make those weak heavy attacks builds even weaker?? Bruh, that's just weird LOL
Fun fact, my guildmate just got her first HM using this build (talking about one skill light attack God). She was 5th dps in that vKA run and everyone was happy for her, no toxic people criticising her build or trying to make her feel bad. That's how I heard about this thread LOL
And this is what the game should be about, discussing good ideas, having fun together and building nice communities, not about envy and trying to bring others down, there is no MMO without people. Because of all that toxicity for many ESO is just a single-player game and it shouldn't be this wayEdited by LeeLooWasHere on May 14, 2023 2:28PM6
This discussion has been closed.