Thoughts of a Random Guy on Necrom Changes to HA / Heavy-Attack builds & on Arcanist

loveeso

Ph1p wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Just as weight categories in boxing aren't compared based on fighters' skill, balancing MMO classes, weapons, or play styles shouldn't rely on players' skill, but rather on their maximum achievable power (i.e. weight / engine size / DPS).

So you would compare an amateur boxer to Mike Tyson or Ali, just because they weigh the same? You do realize that boxing has experience-based divisions, right? You don't pit a novice with no championship fights against someone with 20 bouts under his belt, just because they theoretically have the same punching power...

Indeed, you don’t. Exactly my point. The maximum achievable power isn't related to their skill though, but to their weigth (i.e. build/playstyle/class in the context of an MMORPG) and this is why we have weight categories - someone noticed that incontrovertible fact and created these categories.

Ph1p wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

As for the rest of what you wrote, I believe it should be quite clear to anyone who has read all my earlier posts that what you suggest is incorrect. Having said that, I don’t want to go in circles and repeat the points that I have already made so let us just agree to disagree, i.e. I do acknowledge that you believe I am wrong.

Simply asserting that I am wrong and you are right is completely meaningless and an indication that there are no insights to be gained here any more. So, I will follow @tmbrinks' excellent example and wish you all the best.

Thanks for your input and all the best to you too.

loveeso

Another nice example of pro-nerf logic (we are still talking about Empower & Storm Master) - showing it here because it's relevant, just to keep those who aren't following the other thread updated:

Tradewind

After the nerf, I really hope all these players who use "high-end builds" join forces with those who don't or can't use them as frequently. Otherwise, this situation will become quite comical.
Today, I wasn't able to complete a single vpledge, failed to finish vFH, and even though I join to assisted with the last boss in vSS, the team spent nearly two hours struggling there.
And this is Craglorn for me:

everyday with more players!!

PrincessOfThieves

Tradewind wrote: »

Otherwise, this situation will become quite comical.

It is quite comical how people react to the smallest nerf to their build... The same people who told everyone to "adapt or die" when LA builds were hit by 33% and 66% nerfs are now threatening to quit because they lost a tiny fraction of their power.

Tradewind

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Otherwise, this situation will become quite comical.

It is quite comical how people react to the smallest nerf to their build... The same people who told everyone to "adapt and die" when LA builds were hit by 33% and 66% nerfs are now threatening to quit because they lost a tiny fraction of their power.

I didn't say it like that. Please don't remove certain parts of what I said from the context to make it seem like I said something I didn't. What I actually said was:

• "After the nerf, I really hope all these players who use "high-end builds" join forces with those who don't or can't use them as frequently. Otherwise, this situation will become quite comical."

Ragnarok0130

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

Recap of Anti-HA Rhetoric

Previous post (for context): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705

Yesterday, I had fifteen free minutes and decided I would demonstrate that what I wrote (see: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7867705/#Comment_7867705 ) in my earlier post was just facts, plain and simple, not mere speculations as we so often see from the anti-HA/Oakensoul camp. I wanted to show that it's possible to make any two-bar light-attack build just as tanky as any Oakensoul build and also incredibly easy to sustain. And, even with these modifications, the build would still outperform any Oakensoul heavy-attack build in terms of DPS.

I use the word "demonstrate" above instead of "test" because I've done this multiple times for myself and my friends over the years. So, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to ESO. I'm not surprised that many mid-tier players who dislike heavy-attack or Oakensoul builds don't believe me. They often haven't learned the game well enough yet. If they did, they would be dealing 120k+ DPS in real content and wouldn't be struggling to compete with weaker heavy-attack and Oakensoul builds. It does not help that so many of them just copy the meta builds (often without even understanding why these builds were designed the way they were) and then get frustrated that they are not there yet.

I've noticed that many anti-HA players struggle with both DPS and survival. This is why they often get triggered when they see others easily cruising through content with their HA builds. But, I believe that if they practice more and learn more about the game, they'll catch up and lose interest in nerfing HA builds. This is how it works, and I've never met a friend at my level or higher who wants to nerf HA or Oakensoul. We enjoy having players with different builds around and we love chilling on HA builds too.

But I digress. So I implemented just a few of the small changes I mentioned in my previous post:

- slapped Prismatic Defense on all body pieces

- switched a glyph on one jewellery piece from Increase Physical/Magical Harm to Reduce Feat Cost

- instead of using parse food, I used food which also increases max health

- I slapped Flare on both bars to get +10% damage mitigation (better than Oakensoul's Minor Aegis which is just +5%)

I was thinking about using an Imperial or a Redguard, but as I wrote in my previous post, sustain on LA builds in the era of hybridisation is so easy that I just kept my Dunmer. Of course, one could choose a Nord and be tankier than any Oakensoul HA character who isn't a Nord.

I only had fifteen minutes, as I mentioned, so after changing all that I just killed one trial dummy. I didn't try too hard, as I wanted a sloppy rotation. Last time, when I posted my One-Skill Light-Attack God, where I tried to simulate a noob rotation, I was accused by one of our anti-HA contrarians that my weaving was too good (it really wasn't). Hence, I didn't worry too much about misses or weaving and still managed to get higher DPS than any HA build at first try.

For detailed results see the picture below.

Re. sustain, you will notice that my Magicka was over 75% and Stamina over 50% all of the time, no problems with sustain whatsoever.

The DPS I got was 107.5k. Since my best DPS to date was just slightly over 120k+, someone who is much better at rotations and weaving and can do 137k should be able to use this build to get around 118-120k.

So here you go, an easy-to-play and sustain two-bar LA build that is as tanky as any Oakensoul build but can avoid damage, block, interrupt, and move much quicker than HA builds. Considering that the highest HA DPS in the world on the trial dummy logged on ESO Logs is 100.6k (see Dobry Magista), that means that with a slightly modified LA meta, you can be as tanky as any Oakensoul user, never have any problems with sustain, and yet have from 7% (my 107.5k) to 20% (a champion's 120k) higher DPS than the one outlier HA build that all anti-HA critics rage about (namely, the Oakensoul Lightning Sorcerer with two pets and all six slots used for damage skills - by the way, this LA build uses just 7 skills so only one more than the HA sorc) — an outlier because most (especially non-Lightning) HA builds do incomparably less damage than this one outlier. Still, the outlier is much weaker than LA builds.

But yeah, let's nerf HA play style

You missed 2 light attack weaves to get 107K dps.

You practically had to have a perfect rotation to barely beat what a heavy attack build can do with a quarter of the effort.

Exactly he’s a skilled player and most of those getting the high end numbers with HA are super skilled players such as this. Those sucking wind getting 15-20k with a 2 bar la set up are getting between 28-35 k dps on a 3 mil.

Again this only seems to hurt the the low end and mid end players this is where the problem lies and the average dps of the game is prob around 8-15k so all those players finally got a boost to 25k and can hop on some more content they couldn’t before. That’s all it hurts.

IDK how many times this has to be said, but this skilled/vs unskilled argument is disingenuous.

I am by far not overly skilled at rotations. May max parse on a fully optimized trial DPS setup is like 75K. My max parse on my solo build is 57K. My max parse on an oaken build is 97K, or nearly 2x that of my solo build, and still 20K more than my absolute best parse on a two bar trial build. Even with ONLY having pets alive and heavy attacking, so just holding down the right trigger for the entire parse and doing nothing else, the build does 80K. That is more than 20K more than my solo build, and still outparses the best parse I have ever done on an optimized trial setup.

It is by far easier to use a oaken heavy attack setup than any two bar setup. Skill has nothing to do with it, a piece of tape could hit 80K on the build.

And again, I think they are fine, and I think they will also be fine with the slight nerf they are getting, and I still think they would be fine with an even large nerf. Oaken heavy attack builds could do 60K DPS and STILL be viable for all but trifecta content.

Make a video of you with a piece of tape.
A lot of the nerf callers make claims but never back them up. Which is disingenuous.

60k is not “viable” for hardcore end game. That is my current trial dummy parse number pre nerf.

Someone has already posted in one of these threads an 80K parse with only holding down the heavy attack button.

I can do it again myself, but I don't have any reason to lie about a heavy attack parse (while defending them, which makes the veiled accusation hilarious) but then also say that I can't even hit 80K on a two bar parse. If I were lying, I'd clearly be inflating my own capabilities.

All I have been doing is trying to reign in the absolutely absurd sky is falling rhetoric, and bring a bit of realism into the possibilities of the oaken builds. One can both defend the builds and speak honestly about their power.

The only people saying the Sky are falling are
Those who are worried how other people play.

Pardon? You were screaming that the sky was falling in several nerf threads on this topic because you didn’t think your play style would be viable post nerf, that you were being removed from the end game. Have you changed your position that the nerf is merely an adjustment now instead of the end of your play style?

loveeso

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

CGPsaint

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

But then people wouldn't be able to flex about how they can hit 150K on a trial dummy wearing cheese sets!

loveeso

CGPsaint wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

But then people wouldn't be able to flex about how they can hit 150K on a trial dummy wearing cheese sets!

I'm sure they would survive and maybe even benefit from it by focusing on real-life achievements

loveeso

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

[snip]

Love your signature by the way

[edited to remove quote]

BlueRaven

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

I really like this idea, and the dps cap might be good for pvp too I think.

Gandalf_72

tmbrinks wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Some comments on the @loveeso summary a couple posts above:

• Overall, great work.
• 81 + 9 is not exactly 100.
• Almost the whole discussion is about lightning attack HA builds. Observing that other HA builds do lousy DPS is not very relevant.
• Nothing will fully settle the disagreement as to whether people with non-elite clicking skills should be allowed to do the toughest content. There will always be elite clickers greatly upset that lesser clickers are allowed into their club.

Kusto wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They should just nerf the survivability and leave the damage alone. It is already objectively worse at the cap than LA.

Yes the cap is lower but the average player can get closer to the HA cap than LA cap. Not much point comparing everything to the 0.00001% of players. Majority of players cant hit 70-80k with 2 bar la builds. But EVERYONE can with oaken ha build IF they actually follow the build. Alot of people in this thread say they cant and throw out very low numbers but after looking into the builds it turns out they got everything wrong. Follow the EXACT build and you will hit 80k. Skill has nothing to do with it. It's just how the build works.

That is not entirely true. Not everyone can achieve close numbers with a HA build like Top-Tiel LA players, because it is not as simple as just pressing one button to get high numbers.

I just did this parse for ya, if you can call it a parse lol. I just held down 1 button for 4 and half minutes. My cat could step on the mouse button and get the same result. Theres 0 skill involved.




Also note that this is Warden, Sorc can get 80k
And this gets even better in actual content with multiple targets as 80% of this parse is aoe damage. All that with 29k HP, no pots use and 0 sustain issues. You can clear any content with it holding down 1 button, except trial trifectas. If thats not OP then I dont know what is.

But a team with 8 DDs like that wouldn't do 8x that damage, as they wouldn't do the DDs' share of raid buffing.

It can be frustrating to engage with those who refuse to consider opposing viewpoints, even when presented with logical evidence.

Completely agree. It is also frustrating when some players' opinions are presented as fact, and those that come to different conclusions have repeatedly been put down.

I agree too.
some opinions with which I agreed like this one and this one, are unfortunately no longer available totally or partially

Tradewind

Okay, I agree that HA really needs a nerf because all players who use it can stay close (not better) to Top-Tier builds. Let's nerf it and allow people to have an amazing 25k DPS.
P.S. No, we have not completed vCR+0.

sarahthes

Taking a 1 bar build into cloudrest is pretty risky. It's probably the one place you shouldn't take one unless you're resetting on deaths.

Tradewind

sarahthes wrote: »

Taking a 1 bar build into cloudrest is pretty risky. It's probably the one place you shouldn't take one unless you're resetting on deaths.

If you say so. We don't wipe at any time because 1 bar built! The issue lies in not having enough DPS, nothing else.

However, nerfing one build that is used by players who can't make better with 2bars, and forcing them to have even less DPS doesn't make any sense.
And all of this is happening because some players truly know how to use HA and don't limit themselves to pressing just one button. It's quite disheartening.

sarahthes

Tradewind wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Taking a 1 bar build into cloudrest is pretty risky. It's probably the one place you shouldn't take one unless you're resetting on deaths.

If you say so. We don't wipe at any time because 1 bar built! The issue lies in not having enough DPS, nothing else.

However, nerfing one build that is used by players who can't make better with 2bars, and forcing them to have even less DPS doesn't make any sense.
And all of this is happening because some players truly know how to use HA and don't limit themselves to pressing just one button. It's quite disheartening.

It has nothing to do with damage, and everything to do with Relequen.

Paralyse

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

That being said, I remain surprised that some players seem to forget that most non-HM vet trials in ESO (and some HM's) can be completed with no one in the group above 70k, or for some of them, no one above 50k. Parse damage is not the same as actual encounter damage. Higher DPS does make many aspects of encounters easier, but not all of them.

HA oakensorc has been a godsend for me because I have certain physical limitations that make it nearly impossible to get my LA weaving speed average below 1.0sec, whereas the top weavers can get their weave average consistently below 0.5 sec. The difference therein when it comes to a parse is usually 30-40k DPS. This is why even with the most bleeding edge perfect sets, gear, skills, and rotation on, e.g., stamsorc, I cannot get above 110-115k; I cannot physically execute the actions needed fast enough IRL to get 135-140k. My top HA oakensorc parse is around 95k, which is still 20k less than an optimized LA magsorc build at 1.0sec weave average, but still plenty sufficient to complete most veteran trial content and certainly most 4 man vet / vet DLC content.

I do not see any particular need to nerf HA builds and am surprised that it is even being considered, as this would be a step backwards towards improving accessibility for us players who have physical limitations and disabilities. It has done wonders in allowing many people to get back into trials and harder content that had previously been more difficult to participate in due to the reliance on light attack weaving to achieve acceptable DPS to complete that content effectively. (In other words, back when HA builds capped out around 20-30k vs 70-90k for LA builds.)

Kusto

Paralyse wrote: »

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

That being said, I remain surprised that some players seem to forget that most non-HM vet trials in ESO (and some HM's) can be completed with no one in the group above 70k, or for some of them, no one above 50k. Parse damage is not the same as actual encounter damage. Higher DPS does make many aspects of encounters easier, but not all of them.

HA oakensorc has been a godsend for me because I have certain physical limitations that make it nearly impossible to get my LA weaving speed average below 1.0sec, whereas the top weavers can get their weave average consistently below 0.5 sec. The difference therein when it comes to a parse is usually 30-40k DPS. This is why even with the most bleeding edge perfect sets, gear, skills, and rotation on, e.g., stamsorc, I cannot get above 110-115k; I cannot physically execute the actions needed fast enough IRL to get 135-140k. My top HA oakensorc parse is around 95k, which is still 20k less than an optimized LA magsorc build at 1.0sec weave average, but still plenty sufficient to complete most veteran trial content and certainly most 4 man vet / vet DLC content.

I do not see any particular need to nerf HA builds and am surprised that it is even being considered, as this would be a step backwards towards improving accessibility for us players who have physical limitations and disabilities. It has done wonders in allowing many people to get back into trials and harder content that had previously been more difficult to participate in due to the reliance on light attack weaving to achieve acceptable DPS to complete that content effectively. (In other words, back when HA builds capped out around 20-30k vs 70-90k for LA builds.)

Alot of misinformation in your post. Show me a parse where LAs do 30-40k dps. LAs only do 8-10% usually. So even If you're missing half of them, it would be only 6-7k at most.

And as for Cloudrest, oaken HA works fine in there. You can only get the bar swap mechanic if someone who had it died to it and then got passed to you. Other than that the mechanic ALWAYS goes to non oaken players first if theres at least 3 of them alive.

Paralyse

Kusto wrote: »

Alot of misinformation in your post. Show me a parse where LAs do 30-40k dps. LAs only do 8-10% usually. So even If you're missing half of them, it would be only 6-7k at most.

If I had the ability to do so, I would gladly show you an example using my stamsorc with the wrecking blow meta parse build using Coral/Nirn/Perfected BRP daggers. I parsed 5 attempts on the 21m atro using identical build in every respect -same gear, traits, weights, perfected daggers, same CP, same skills. My best weaving average was 0.96 (?) IIRC which netted me like 112k parse on that build. The person who I was comparing against from Discord with the same build had a weaving average of either 0.49 or 0.46, which resulted in 135+ k DPS. The ONLY variable between the two CMX captures is the weaving average. Faster weaving average means that you can fire more skills in the same duration. Buff uptimes were broadly comparable.

[snip]

Kusto wrote: »

And as for Cloudrest, oaken HA works fine in there. You can only get the bar swap mechanic if someone who had it died to it and then got passed to you. Other than that the mechanic ALWAYS goes to non oaken players first if theres at least 3 of them alive.

This is in direct opposition to both my personal experience in vCR+1 Rele as oakensoul ha magsorc and those of my guildmates in vCR+2 with Rele up, vCR+3, and GH progs, all of whom now strictly ban 1 bar builds from signing up at all due to the barswap mechanic. Avoidable deaths are not desirable due to loss of vit and the above-average difficulty of recovering vCR+2/vCR+3 pulls if it turns into res prog.

The glitch which prevented Oakensoul-equipped players from taking barswap damage at all was apparently fixed a few weeks ago (mid March.) If players wearing Oakensoul are still not taking any damage from Voltaic Overload in vCR (as was the case before mid-March patch) despite having Voltaic Overload applied to them, I would be interested, because it will make things much easier on vCR+3 farm runs and GH progs. I am definitely open to considering alternative points of view if they can be supported by evidence and it would be helpful to verify this. I have not seen any situations since the mid-March update where a player with Oakensoul equipped simply cannot be afflicted at all with Voltaic Overload, as was the case prior to the patch.

[Edited for Minor Baiting]

Kusto

Paralyse wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Alot of misinformation in your post. Show me a parse where LAs do 30-40k dps. LAs only do 8-10% usually. So even If you're missing half of them, it would be only 6-7k at most.

If I had the ability to do so, I would gladly show you an example using my stamsorc with the wrecking blow meta parse build using Coral/Nirn/Perfected BRP daggers. I parsed 5 attempts on the 21m atro using identical build in every respect -same gear, traits, weights, perfected daggers, same CP, same skills. My best weaving average was 0.96 (?) IIRC which netted me like 112k parse on that build. The person who I was comparing against from Discord with the same build had a weaving average of either 0.49 or 0.46, which resulted in 135+ k DPS. The ONLY variable between the two CMX captures is the weaving average. Faster weaving average means that you can fire more skills in the same duration. Buff uptimes were broadly comparable.

[snip]

Kusto wrote: »

And as for Cloudrest, oaken HA works fine in there. You can only get the bar swap mechanic if someone who had it died to it and then got passed to you. Other than that the mechanic ALWAYS goes to non oaken players first if theres at least 3 of them alive.

This is in direct opposition to both my personal experience in vCR+1 Rele as oakensoul ha magsorc and those of my guildmates in vCR+2 with Rele up, vCR+3, and GH progs, all of whom now strictly ban 1 bar builds from signing up at all due to the barswap mechanic. Avoidable deaths are not desirable due to loss of vit and the above-average difficulty of recovering vCR+2/vCR+3 pulls if it turns into res prog.

The glitch which prevented Oakensoul-equipped players from taking barswap damage at all was apparently fixed a few weeks ago (mid March.) If players wearing Oakensoul are still not taking any damage from Voltaic Overload in vCR (as was the case before mid-March patch) despite having Voltaic Overload applied to them, I would be interested, because it will make things much easier on vCR+3 farm runs and GH progs. I am definitely open to considering alternative points of view if they can be supported by evidence and it would be helpful to verify this. I have not seen any situations since the mid-March update where a player with Oakensoul equipped simply cannot be afflicted at all with Voltaic Overload, as was the case prior to the patch.

[Edited for Minor Baiting]

Please find me ANY parse, it doesn't have to be yours, where 30-40k is from LAs. Get the one you were comparing from discord. Just remove their name.

And I've seen the post regarding Cloudrest bar swap being "fixed". But I've done vCR regularly since then and its simply NOT TRUE. The reason many groups don't want Oakensoul there is that the other players have to deal with the bar swap mechanic more often. Especially when doing +2or 3 it adds more difficulty for support roles. I tanked +1 the other day and we had 4 oakensorcs. I had the bar swap mechanic non stop one after another.

[Edited for Quote]

Nilandia

Paralyse wrote: »

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

This is inaccurate. When the changes went through with the current patch, I personally reviewed well over 2 dozen logs from after the changes. People wearing oakensoul only get voltaic when it initially goes out if there is no other viable candidate. If someone dies with voltaic, it is possible for it to jump to someone with oakensoul. Otherwise, voltaic will only target people not using oakensoul.

That being said, once someone with oakenoul does get voltaic, it will affect them as much as anyone else. Because they are unable to bar swap, it usually hits them much harder than someone who can bar swap.

sarahthes

Nilandia wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

This is inaccurate. When the changes went through with the current patch, I personally reviewed well over 2 dozen logs from after the changes. People wearing oakensoul only get voltaic when it initially goes out if there is no other viable candidate. If someone dies with voltaic, it is possible for it to jump to someone with oakensoul. Otherwise, voltaic will only target people not using oakensoul.

That being said, once someone with oakenoul does get voltaic, it will affect them as much as anyone else. Because they are unable to bar swap, it usually hits them much harder than someone who can bar swap.

I won't take them because it's not fair to the other players, because it forces the mech on to everyone else.

Additionally, I had an oakensorc x up for a vCR I was leading without disclosing they were on an oakensorc. They spam died and did half the damage of everyone else. They had a prior HM clear and at this point I'm wondering if they paid for it based on how they played.

Nilandia

sarahthes wrote: »

Nilandia wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

This is inaccurate. When the changes went through with the current patch, I personally reviewed well over 2 dozen logs from after the changes. People wearing oakensoul only get voltaic when it initially goes out if there is no other viable candidate. If someone dies with voltaic, it is possible for it to jump to someone with oakensoul. Otherwise, voltaic will only target people not using oakensoul.

That being said, once someone with oakenoul does get voltaic, it will affect them as much as anyone else. Because they are unable to bar swap, it usually hits them much harder than someone who can bar swap.

I won't take them because it's not fair to the other players, because it forces the mech on to everyone else.

Additionally, I had an oakensorc x up for a vCR I was leading without disclosing they were on an oakensorc. They spam died and did half the damage of everyone else. They had a prior HM clear and at this point I'm wondering if they paid for it based on how they played.

I make no judgments on whether someone should take an oakensoul user into vCR. I'm only concerned with people making the decision with accurate information.

Kusto

Paralyse wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

Alot of misinformation in your post. Show me a parse where LAs do 30-40k dps. LAs only do 8-10% usually. So even If you're missing half of them, it would be only 6-7k at most.

If I had the ability to do so, I would gladly show you an example using my stamsorc with the wrecking blow meta parse build using Coral/Nirn/Perfected BRP daggers. I parsed 5 attempts on the 21m atro using identical build in every respect -same gear, traits, weights, perfected daggers, same CP, same skills. My best weaving average was 0.96 (?) IIRC which netted me like 112k parse on that build. The person who I was comparing against from Discord with the same build had a weaving average of either 0.49 or 0.46, which resulted in 135+ k DPS. The ONLY variable between the two CMX captures is the weaving average. Faster weaving average means that you can fire more skills in the same duration. Buff uptimes were broadly comparable.

But what good's math, logged data, and screenshots anyway when it's easier just to call someone a liar?

Kusto wrote: »

And as for Cloudrest, oaken HA works fine in there. You can only get the bar swap mechanic if someone who had it died to it and then got passed to you. Other than that the mechanic ALWAYS goes to non oaken players first if theres at least 3 of them alive.

This is in direct opposition to both my personal experience in vCR+1 Rele as oakensoul ha magsorc and those of my guildmates in vCR+2 with Rele up, vCR+3, and GH progs, all of whom now strictly ban 1 bar builds from signing up at all due to the barswap mechanic. Avoidable deaths are not desirable due to loss of vit and the above-average difficulty of recovering vCR+2/vCR+3 pulls if it turns into res prog.

The glitch which prevented Oakensoul-equipped players from taking barswap damage at all was apparently fixed a few weeks ago (mid March.) If players wearing Oakensoul are still not taking any damage from Voltaic Overload in vCR (as was the case before mid-March patch) despite having Voltaic Overload applied to them, I would be interested, because it will make things much easier on vCR+3 farm runs and GH progs. I am definitely open to considering alternative points of view if they can be supported by evidence and it would be helpful to verify this. I have not seen any situations since the mid-March update where a player with Oakensoul equipped simply cannot be afflicted at all with Voltaic Overload, as was the case prior to the patch.

Please find me ANY parse, it doesn't have to be yours, where 30-40k is from LAs. Get the one you were comparing from discord. Just remove their name.

And I've seen the post regarding Cloudrest bar swap being "fixed". But I've done vCR regularly since then and its simply NOT TRUE. The reason many groups don't want Oakensoul there is that the other players have to deal with the bar swap mechanic more often. Especially when doing +2or 3 it adds more difficulty for support roles. I tanked +1 the other day and we had 4 oakensorcs. I had the bar swap mechanic non stop one after another.

sarahthes wrote: »

Nilandia wrote: »

Paralyse wrote: »

1 bar build in vCR is only viable if Relequen is not in the fight. Bar swap mechanic is no longer bugged and you WILL take damage even with Oakensoul. It's not IMPOSSIBLE to survive, but it is very difficult -- I have seen one group that lets their orbslayer HA oakensorc and if they die to bar swap mechanic the rest of the team is aces on burning shade and resurrecting them. Alternatively, they can be cracked enough to mini skip, or burn minis before the mechs fire, like some of the top end scorepush groups.

This is inaccurate. When the changes went through with the current patch, I personally reviewed well over 2 dozen logs from after the changes. People wearing oakensoul only get voltaic when it initially goes out if there is no other viable candidate. If someone dies with voltaic, it is possible for it to jump to someone with oakensoul. Otherwise, voltaic will only target people not using oakensoul.

That being said, once someone with oakenoul does get voltaic, it will affect them as much as anyone else. Because they are unable to bar swap, it usually hits them much harder than someone who can bar swap.

I won't take them because it's not fair to the other players, because it forces the mech on to everyone else.

Additionally, I had an oakensorc x up for a vCR I was leading without disclosing they were on an oakensorc. They spam died and did half the damage of everyone else. They had a prior HM clear and at this point I'm wondering if they paid for it based on how they played.

It wasn't the oaken player fault though. He only got the mechanic because someone else failed it and died. So it was on that person. But I agree, its not fair on others who have to deal more often with the bar swap because oaken user wants an ez mode. +1 literally plays like +0 for them and they're usually the top dps aswell because of the frequent retargeting in that trial. Regular 2 bar builds take some time to get rotation going but oaken ha hits their max output almost instantly. Alot of people forget that part when comparing in this thread.

Tradewind

Kusto wrote: »

It wasn't the oaken player fault though. He only got the mechanic because someone else failed it and died. So it was on that person. But I agree, its not fair on others who have to deal more often with the bar swap

because oaken user wants an ez mode.

+1 literally plays like +0 for them and they're usually the top dps aswell because of the frequent retargeting in that trial. Regular 2 bar builds take some time to get rotation going but oaken ha hits their max output almost instantly. Alot of people forget that part when comparing in this thread.

The problem is not about EZ mode and never has been. The issue lies solely with the "Top tier build (2bars)" vs players who are truly using HA builds.

If I could use the ESO forum to post screenshots of ESO games along with logs from the game, I would be able to demonstrate and prove how mistaken many of you are. However, it's unfortunate that we are unable to share screenshots of ESO games on the ESO forum (which is quite ironic, isn't it?).

Only players who use top-tier builds will win something with these nerfs, while all others will lose.
If you relly believe this will be good for the game in general, you're wrong. Players who use top-tier builds don't care about PUGs.

Braffin

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

Although I can't share your opinion regarding the current iteration of HA builds (I have to admit I'm only talking about oakensorc here), cause they offer for my opinion too much survivability while they negate any issues regarding sustain, I share you opinion in capping dps in trials.

I see several advantages in doing so:
1) It's the only way to really make more builds viable for most of the trial content, as a clear choice for BiS would be much harder to find. The actual quite narrow options in endgame and midgame (on both LA and HA playstyles) doesn't seem healthy to the game.
2) People would be forced to learn mechanics, instead of hoping for a build which make them able to out-dps their problems in an upcoming patch. In other words people would be forced to learn playing the real content, instead of killing off an helpless dummy. (In my parsing times, we at least had to go to bloodbrood for testing. Yes, was annoying, but at least not as braindead as hitting the dummy and dying in trials by standing in stupid.)
3) For newer players it would be easier to find a group to play with, as the playfield would be more even.

The only downside I see is regarded to scorepushing and leaderboards, as dps is (together with perfect execution of mechanics) the main factor here. But there could be a solution too: There could be an additional mode without any dps limit, where you can pull off as much as you can. This mode would of course not get you titles, mounts or any achievements you are missing, as for a scorepusher the score is the only thing that matters (I've done it myself a few years ago and nobody in our team was missing any achievment. Wouldn't make sense.)

Finally a few words not directed only to you but more in general: I had the honor to raid with endgame teams till I took a long break from the game, and it was a blast. Most of the people I met were friendly and helpful (and a little bit childish, but that's part of the game), working together in a consistent and stable group was the way to go and the way to have fun.
Unfortunately I also witnessed some trial guilds in so-called "mid-game", the tone was definitely more rough there, the goal was to "achieve" something, sometimes also to "show-off". That's not fun, and you won't achieve anything if you only run after some achievements and fail again and again trying.

sarahthes

Braffin wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

Although I can't share your opinion regarding the current iteration of HA builds (I have to admit I'm only talking about oakensorc here), cause they offer for my opinion too much survivability while they negate any issues regarding sustain, I share you opinion in capping dps in trials.

I see several advantages in doing so:
1) It's the only way to really make more builds viable for most of the trial content, as a clear choice for BiS would be much harder to find. The actual quite narrow options in endgame and midgame (on both LA and HA playstyles) doesn't seem healthy to the game.
2) People would be forced to learn mechanics, instead of hoping for a build which make them able to out-dps their problems in an upcoming patch. In other words people would be forced to learn playing the real content, instead of killing off an helpless dummy. (In my parsing times, we at least had to go to bloodbrood for testing. Yes, was annoying, but at least not as braindead as hitting the dummy and dying in trials by standing in stupid.)
3) For newer players it would be easier to find a group to play with, as the playfield would be more even.

The only downside I see is regarded to scorepushing and leaderboards, as dps is (together with perfect execution of mechanics) the main factor here. But there could be a solution too: There could be an additional mode without any dps limit, where you can pull off as much as you can. This mode would of course not get you titles, mounts or any achievements you are missing, as for a scorepusher the score is the only thing that matters (I've done it myself a few years ago and nobody in our team was missing any achievment. Wouldn't make sense.)

Finally a few words not directed only to you but more in general: I had the honor to raid with endgame teams till I took a long break from the game, and it was a blast. Most of the people I met were friendly and helpful (and a little bit childish, but that's part of the game), working together in a consistent and stable group was the way to go and the way to have fun.
Unfortunately I also witnessed some trial guilds in so-called "mid-game", the tone was definitely more rough there, the goal was to "achieve" something, sometimes also to "show-off". That's not fun, and you won't achieve anything if you only run after some achievements and fail again and again trying.

I think you'd kill early endgame by doing this.

Anyone who has their titles already isn't likely to stick around in the damage capped version of the trial. And that would be very, very bad for the raiding population. You'd basically remove that group of players that has titles already and keeps going back to try to improve their score while taking people who don't have the title yet with them.

You can't segregate endgame like that. It's already too small of a population.

Braffin

sarahthes wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

loveeso wrote: »

My conclusion is that there is only one solution to this madness (which I have honestly never seen in any other MMORPG - people may criticise your DPS but they don't care about the way you achieve it as long as you do and you are not messing the mechanics). Instead of adjusting the build that are weaker to make them even weaker, the player's DPS should be capped at 70k, irrespective of the build. I saw this idea in one of the threads and I do think it is the only solution to save this game. It will allow people to play the way they want while forcing them to learn all the mechanics (no skips ). I love the idea. Whoever came up with it (sorry, don't remember the name), thank you

Although I can't share your opinion regarding the current iteration of HA builds (I have to admit I'm only talking about oakensorc here), cause they offer for my opinion too much survivability while they negate any issues regarding sustain, I share you opinion in capping dps in trials.

I see several advantages in doing so:
1) It's the only way to really make more builds viable for most of the trial content, as a clear choice for BiS would be much harder to find. The actual quite narrow options in endgame and midgame (on both LA and HA playstyles) doesn't seem healthy to the game.
2) People would be forced to learn mechanics, instead of hoping for a build which make them able to out-dps their problems in an upcoming patch. In other words people would be forced to learn playing the real content, instead of killing off an helpless dummy. (In my parsing times, we at least had to go to bloodbrood for testing. Yes, was annoying, but at least not as braindead as hitting the dummy and dying in trials by standing in stupid.)
3) For newer players it would be easier to find a group to play with, as the playfield would be more even.

The only downside I see is regarded to scorepushing and leaderboards, as dps is (together with perfect execution of mechanics) the main factor here. But there could be a solution too: There could be an additional mode without any dps limit, where you can pull off as much as you can. This mode would of course not get you titles, mounts or any achievements you are missing, as for a scorepusher the score is the only thing that matters (I've done it myself a few years ago and nobody in our team was missing any achievment. Wouldn't make sense.)

Finally a few words not directed only to you but more in general: I had the honor to raid with endgame teams till I took a long break from the game, and it was a blast. Most of the people I met were friendly and helpful (and a little bit childish, but that's part of the game), working together in a consistent and stable group was the way to go and the way to have fun.
Unfortunately I also witnessed some trial guilds in so-called "mid-game", the tone was definitely more rough there, the goal was to "achieve" something, sometimes also to "show-off". That's not fun, and you won't achieve anything if you only run after some achievements and fail again and again trying.

I think you'd kill early endgame by doing this.

Anyone who has their titles already isn't likely to stick around in the damage capped version of the trial. And that would be very, very bad for the raiding population. You'd basically remove that group of players that has titles already and keeps going back to try to improve their score while taking people who don't have the title yet with them.

You can't segregate endgame like that. It's already too small of a population.

Well, that's a fair point. Didn't think about that.

It's saddening to hear that endgame is in a state THAT bad to be honest, but as you do it actively at the moment as far as I understand, there is no need to doubt it. And as I think of it, I'm not really wondering about it. As I left (together with many others) in 2017 the discussion was already the same. Sure it was about other builds and other trials, but in the end too many people only saw their dps as the only solution to their problem they had with mechanics.

Well, enjoy it while it lasts, you have my best wishes 🙂

Kusto

Tradewind wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

It wasn't the oaken player fault though. He only got the mechanic because someone else failed it and died. So it was on that person. But I agree, its not fair on others who have to deal more often with the bar swap

because oaken user wants an ez mode.

+1 literally plays like +0 for them and they're usually the top dps aswell because of the frequent retargeting in that trial. Regular 2 bar builds take some time to get rotation going but oaken ha hits their max output almost instantly. Alot of people forget that part when comparing in this thread.

Only players who use top-tier builds will win something with these nerfs, while all others will lose.

That's exactly why oaken ha needs nerfing. Currently theres the small minority "top tier" players and the rest of the playerbase. And that rest is kinda forced to use the HA build because they cant parse 130k like the top. If you're among that rest, and not using oaken HA, then you will be bottom dps in content. The oaken HA build needs to be nerfed so that other builds can also be viable for the AVERAGE player.
People need to stop comparing with the top all the time. Its irrelevant what some 0.0001% of players does. No matter what Zos does or doesn't do, that top will always be top. Balance should be achieved among the majority of players. And currently oaken HA is over performing in that category.

TaSheen

I'm not using a HA build. I don't want my Oakensoul nerfed any more. I don't parse. I quest. So you're perfectly happy to cut me down to size when this is the first time I've been able to handle a quest boss.

Thanks. /s