Sergeant's Mail: bug or feature?

Billium813 · April 2023

Creating this thread just to make sure it's understood that this interaction exists. I'd like to hear confirmation from ZOS on whether this is intended behavior from Sergeant's Mail or an unintended interaction. Thanks.

Sergeant's Mail

> ... increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 645 per stack (x4 max stacks)

That's +2580 at max stacks

Without Sergeant's Mail:

The non-crit, channel damage is (2x) 1113 and the final, non-crit damage is 3094

With Sergeant's Mail:

The non-crit, channel damage is (2x) 3521 and the final, non-crit damage is 5325

This means the channel damage is being buffed by 2231 on each channel hit, and 2408 on the final hit. So, Lightning Staff Full-Charged Heavy Attack is getting +6870. All other weapons only see ~2500 damage increase to their Heavy Attack damage from Sergeant's Mail; as it's described in the set bonus. I would expect the Sergeant's Mail damage buff to be spread over all the components of the Lightning Staff Heavy Attack damage, not increasing each individual damage component, amounting to a damage that far exceeds what is described in the tool tip.

RaptorRodeoGod · April 2023

Sets that buff heavy attacks normally work that way. It's because the set is increasing the damage done by your heavy attacks, not increasing the weapon damage of it.

Edit: Since resto heavies are channels as well, they also benefit from the phenomenon you described.

jaws343 · April 2023

They are also very clear in calling out when buffs are specific to fully charged heavy attacks. This set does not call that out for the damage, only for the activation.

Tannus15 · April 2023

You're not accounting for resistance.
The dummy has 18200 resistance so unless you're hitting the pen cap your damage will be reduced.

Billium813 · April 2023

Tannus15 wrote: »

You're not accounting for resistance.
The dummy has 18200 resistance so unless you're hitting the pen cap your damage will be reduced.

I understand that is why the damage is buffed, yet does not reach the values in the tooltip. I wasn't trying to discuss why the value of the damage buff is not exact, but thanks for pointing that out.

Tannus15 · April 2023

Oh I see what you're saying now.

Basically you just want sergeants to only apply to the final (fully charged) heavy attack instead of every tick.
Yeah nah, this is defiantly working as intended. as @RaptorRodeoGod they made a point a while back of differentiating which things applied to every tick and which ones only apply on the final tick.
See Infallible Mage

Your Heavy Attacks deal an additional 900 damage. Enemies you damage with fully-charged Heavy Attacks are afflicted with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 5%.

There you can clearly see the difference.

FrancisCrawford · April 2023

Any theories as to why the buff might be a little different for the early ticks vs. the final one?

Oh. Single parse. Randomness is to be expected ...

Tannus15 · April 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Any theories as to why the buff might be a little different for the early ticks vs. the final one?

My guess is the ticks do x% damage per tick.
final tick multiplied by 0.66 or something like that.

unless you're talking about the fact that sergeants has to build up stacks?

Billium813 · April 2023

Tannus15 wrote: »

Oh I see what you're saying now.

Basically you just want sergeants to only apply to the final (fully charged) heavy attack instead of every tick.
Yeah nah, this is defiantly working as intended. as @RaptorRodeoGod they made a point a while back of differentiating which things applied to every tick and which ones only apply on the final tick.
See Infallible Mage

Your Heavy Attacks deal an additional 900 damage. Enemies you damage with fully-charged Heavy Attacks are afflicted with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 5%.

There you can clearly see the difference.

So, then why even bother having it work for generic "Heavy Attacks" like 2H, Bow, Inferno, ect? Comparatively, Lightning Staff gets a massive bonus from all these "Heavy Attack" sets and is therefore the only viable HA weapon. Isn't really fair. They end up nerfing Empower, or Storm Master, but that's really just targeting Lightning Staff since it's the clear HA weapon. Restoration Staff has the same mechanic, but they were like "oh, Restoration can't do that much damage! Nerf it specifically". Seems wrong to me. If they made all these "Heavy Attack" sets into "Fully Charged Heavy Attack" sets, they could probably buff Empower to 120%! Lightning Staff is a lightning rod for all the HA build viability and focused nerfs and seems like the underlying issue they don't want to fix

jaws343 · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Oh I see what you're saying now.

Basically you just want sergeants to only apply to the final (fully charged) heavy attack instead of every tick.
Yeah nah, this is defiantly working as intended. as @RaptorRodeoGod they made a point a while back of differentiating which things applied to every tick and which ones only apply on the final tick.
See Infallible Mage

Your Heavy Attacks deal an additional 900 damage. Enemies you damage with fully-charged Heavy Attacks are afflicted with Minor Vulnerability for 10 seconds, increasing their damage taken by 5%.

There you can clearly see the difference.

So, then why even bother having it work for generic "Heavy Attacks" like 2H, Bow, Inferno, ect? Comparatively, Lightning Staff gets a massive bonus from all these "Heavy Attack" sets and is therefore the only viable HA weapon. Isn't really fair. They end up nerfing Empower, or Storm Master, but that's really just targeting Lightning Staff since it's the clear HA weapon. Restoration Staff has the same mechanic, but they were like "oh, Restoration can't do that much damage! Nerf it specifically". Seems wrong to me. If they made all these "Heavy Attack" sets into "Fully Charged Heavy Attack" sets, they could probably buff Empower to 120%! Lightning Staff is a lightning rod for all the HA build viability and focused nerfs and seems like the underlying issue they don't want to fix

The same reason any set does anything. Some sets are better for different weapons and playstyles. This set just happens to be better for lightning staves.

Tannus15 · April 2023

also this is literally the 1 gimmick of lightning staffs. they are utter trash without it.

If you want to nerf lightning staffs on this one thing then you need to buff everything else for it to make up for it. not only that but it would make them feel really bad to use because if you need to interrupt the channel for any reason then your damage drop off is huge.

no final tick? basically no damage then.

Billium813 · April 2023

Tannus15 wrote: »

also this is literally the 1 gimmick of lightning staffs. they are utter trash without it.

If you want to nerf lightning staffs on this one thing then you need to buff everything else for it to make up for it. not only that but it would make them feel really bad to use because if you need to interrupt the channel for any reason then your damage drop off is huge.

no final tick? basically no damage then.

Oh, you mean like every other HA in the game? Is the AOE cleave not enough of a gimmick? How about how Lightning Staff has the single highest DPS, even compared to Inferno Staff which is THAT staffs only gimmick. That isn't enough too? Why are we ok with Lightning Staff being the only viable HA build weapon? So ZOS wants HA builds to be viable...

Developer Comment:

Since we've started working on Heavy Attack build viability in the past year, we've seen a massive surge in their use, which is absolutely phenomenal for seeing more players being able to participate in end-game content at a much more digestible pace. While we're happy to see these builds being ran, we're seeing these builds inch a little too close to some of the high end builds with how much more simplified they are, and in some rare cases, they're outperforming a standard build. We're cutting down the damage bonus here ever so slightly in hopes that when you have Empower with a bunch of other Heavy Attack bonus sets, the numbers are still nice and juicy, but not as close to a full-on Light Attack build.

... but they don't want build diversity? How does that make HA builds viable or even remotely interesting? There is 1 clear weapon and 1 clear set and 1 clear mythic. How is that working to make HA builds viable?

Yes, if they changed HA sets on this "one thing", then they could buff Empower and all the HA damage sets by massive amounts... Then we could maybe have viable alternatives to Lightning Staff and HA builds would even more diverse, viable, and interesting. At the moment, it's just a gimmick build putting up huge numbers. That only screams "bug" and shows how fragile HA builds really are; one little change and everything crashes for a build that apparently a large part of the player base enjoys.

Billium813 · April 2023

Just for some background here...

In v7.3.5 - Ascending Tide DLC & Update 33, March 2022, Sergeant's Mail was changed:

Sergeant’s Mail: This set now adds 3031 Weapon and Spell Damage to your fully charged Heavy Attacks, rather than increasing their damage by 2257.

Developer Comment:
Sets like this one have all been adjusted off flat damage modifiers on these attacks due to the nature of how these values interact with additional bonuses, causing them to double dip in effects while other modifiers do not. Rather than outright nerfing these values to the point where they would never eclipse other bonuses, we've converted them into a bonus that can still be increased with some effects such as Major Brutality or Sorcery.

Then, just 5 months later in August 2022, in v8.1.5 - Lost Depths DLC & Update 35, Sergeant's Mail was changed yet again:

Sergeant's Mail: This set has been reworked to now grant you a stack of Sergeant's Focus for 5 seconds whenever you deal damage with a Heavy Attack, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks by 645 per stack. This effect can occur once every half second and stacks up to 4 times.

Developer Comment:
We're moving the focus of this set to be on any Heavy Attack to aid in the flexibility and use case of the set so that more builds can engage with it, while also reducing its potential as a front-loaded burst set.

It seems interesting that they commented on how "flat damage modifiers on heavy attacks" was problematic with how it can double dip with other modifiers. Then just 5 months later, they are swapping back to flat damage modifiers... Umm, did ZOS forget why you made that change in U33 to begin with?

And the comment on why they changed it to "any Heavy Attack"? "So that more builds can engage with it"? That seems laughable given how it totally cripples build diversity for HA builds.

With all these changes to Sergeant’s Mail over the last year, and HA in general, I think it's fair to ask ZOS to look at the state of these HA sets and Lightning Staff, and clarify if they are happy with the stagnant, gimmicky, singleton position HA build viability is in. I would say they need to look at HA "flat damage modifiers" like Sergeant’s Mail once again.

FrancisCrawford · April 2023

Yes, ZoS decided to tie heavy attack builds to lightning staffs, just as they decided to tie conventional magden damage builds to frost staffs.

So?

Perhaps not just coincidentally, they're generally leaning into beams these days, with examples to be found in arcanists and ranged magplar.

Billium813 · April 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Yes, ZoS decided to tie heavy attack builds to lightning staffs, just as they decided to tie conventional magden damage builds to frost staffs.

So?

Perhaps not just coincidentally, they're generally leaning into beams these days, with examples to be found in arcanists and ranged magplar.

I'm not really sure what Class identity has to do with it. They very specifically added Warden passive for Ice Staff, like Piercing Cold. That is very obviously intended by ZOS. You can't argue whether Warden identity is slanted to Ice Staff or not, it's right there in the class passives and Skills. Not really sure what you mean by "beams" being some kind of Templar and Arcanist identity... I see no "beam" sets and 1 or 2 skills hardly implies anything

Sets are a completely different thing. When you read Infallible Mage, Noble Duelist's Silks, Storm Master, Undaunted Unweaver, Undaunted Infiltrator there is nothing in these sets to imply they are supposed to favor Lightning Staves, or any specific HA weapon. Compare these sets to something like Hawk's Eye and Marksman's Crest, which very specifically target Bow. Or Robes of Destruction Mastery and Spider Cultist Cowl, which very specifically target Destruction Staves. There's nothing about the HA build sets to imply they are exclusively targeted for Lightning Staves.

All you seem to be doing is assuming, and until ZOS specifically says "we intend for Lightning Staves to be the only viable HA build", I'm going to assume ZOS doesn't intend for this interaction and call out that they should fix the imbalance.

FrancisCrawford · April 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Yes, ZoS decided to tie heavy attack builds to lightning staffs, just as they decided to tie conventional magden damage builds to frost staffs.

So?

Perhaps not just coincidentally, they're generally leaning into beams these days, with examples to be found in arcanists and ranged magplar.

I'm not really sure what Class identity has to do with it. They very specifically added Warden passive for Ice Staff, like Piercing Cold. That is very obviously intended by ZOS. You can't argue whether Warden identity is slanted to Ice Staff or not, it's right there in the class passives and Skills. Not really sure what you mean by "beams" being some kind of Templar and Arcanist identity... I see no "beam" sets and 1 or 2 skills hardly implies anything

Sets are a completely different thing. When you read Infallible Mage, Noble Duelist's Silks, Storm Master, Undaunted Unweaver, Undaunted Infiltrator there is nothing in these sets to imply they are supposed to favor Lightning Staves, or any specific HA weapon. Compare these sets to something like Hawk's Eye and Marksman's Crest, which very specifically target Bow. Or Robes of Destruction Mastery and Spider Cultist Cowl, which very specifically target Destruction Staves. There's nothing about the HA build sets to imply they are exclusively targeted for Lightning Staves.

All you seem to be doing is assuming, and until ZOS specifically says "we intend for Lightning Staves to be the only viable HA build", I'm going to assume ZOS doesn't intend for this interaction and call out that they should fix the imbalance.

ZoS is obviously aware of how this is currently working. To suggest otherwise would be ludicrously insulting to their intelligence.

All you're calling out is your disagreement with their decision, and perhaps your reasons for disagreeing.

ZoS makes plenty of choices that only make sense for players using certain gear or in certain classes. A lot of tanking stuff assumes a tanking weapon (1H&S or ice staff). Elemental Catalyst is best on necros, and really bad for any other class unless they use Force Shock. Frost staffs are lousy for DPS except on wardens. Lightning staffs are good for DPS only if you have AoE spammables (HA, maybe necro, maybe templar). Etc.

Necrotech_Master · April 2023

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Yes, ZoS decided to tie heavy attack builds to lightning staffs, just as they decided to tie conventional magden damage builds to frost staffs.

So?

Perhaps not just coincidentally, they're generally leaning into beams these days, with examples to be found in arcanists and ranged magplar.

I'm not really sure what Class identity has to do with it. They very specifically added Warden passive for Ice Staff, like Piercing Cold. That is very obviously intended by ZOS. You can't argue whether Warden identity is slanted to Ice Staff or not, it's right there in the class passives and Skills. Not really sure what you mean by "beams" being some kind of Templar and Arcanist identity... I see no "beam" sets and 1 or 2 skills hardly implies anything

Sets are a completely different thing. When you read Infallible Mage, Noble Duelist's Silks, Storm Master, Undaunted Unweaver, Undaunted Infiltrator there is nothing in these sets to imply they are supposed to favor Lightning Staves, or any specific HA weapon. Compare these sets to something like Hawk's Eye and Marksman's Crest, which very specifically target Bow. Or Robes of Destruction Mastery and Spider Cultist Cowl, which very specifically target Destruction Staves. There's nothing about the HA build sets to imply they are exclusively targeted for Lightning Staves.

All you seem to be doing is assuming, and until ZOS specifically says "we intend for Lightning Staves to be the only viable HA build", I'm going to assume ZOS doesn't intend for this interaction and call out that they should fix the imbalance.

ZoS is obviously aware of how this is currently working. To suggest otherwise would be ludicrously insulting to their intelligence.

All you're calling out is your disagreement with their decision, and perhaps your reasons for disagreeing.

ZoS makes plenty of choices that only make sense for players using certain gear or in certain classes. A lot of tanking stuff assumes a tanking weapon (1H&S or ice staff). Elemental Catalyst is best on necros, and really bad for any other class unless they use Force Shock. Frost staffs are lousy for DPS except on wardens. Lightning staffs are good for DPS only if you have AoE spammables (HA, maybe necro, maybe templar). Etc.

to go a long with this, channeled heavies are also WAY easier to use than the other ones, most HA just dont feel very impactful to begin with

Faulgor · April 2023

I don't quite grasp why there are people here arguing for less build diversity.

Heavy Attacks are a base game function, not one of Lightning Staves in particular. It's not like there's only one weapon useful for Light Attacks, either.