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Nerfing a skill line before fixing the skills?
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »Amazing how people are trying to justify the power of a Vampire. Simply put, it was ruining game play for too many people in Cyrodiil, so you get to deal with not being a God anymore.
When the strength of something literally ruins the experience for large sums of people, it is a terrible mechanic and needs to get fixed. The bugs aren't as big of a deal because you can pick other skills, or simply not be a Vampire.
To all you Vampire whiners, be thankful you aren't playing a NB. And hey, most of you are DKs with Sword & Shield, so you are still unjustifiably powerful. (Sorry for all of the assumptions but I am probably right)
Everyone knew Vampire would get nerfed eventually, but I think no one thought ZOS would be dumb enough to Hammer the skill line BEFORE they fixed the freaking bugs. Werewolf is facing the same issues as Vampires, so, before you tell people to stop crying, how about you understand why people are upset.
I applaud ZOS for this decision. Like I said already, it is not fun for all of us non-Vampires to get wiped by how absurdly broken they are in Cyrodiil. I agree that it sucks that passives are broken (remember, I'm a NB?) but let's not ruin the gameplay for large parties getting owned by unstoppable vampires AND for the vampire to have broken skills.
Fix what affects the majority, then hammer down on the passive bugs. Let's fix CLASS skills before we fix "optional" skill trees.
I give a rats ass about Cyrodiil and PvP, my intrests lies in PvE. If they are going to bend at the whim of every whiner crying about getting killed in PvP, then this game is doomed. They should be testing internally, not changing stuff at every turn at the sound of discomfort coming from this forum.
You can still compete in PVE just fine without Vampire skill line. PVE shouldn't require an Optional skill line. That is what the word Optional should mean.
PvP will always be more important for balance, because the strength of a class not only affects the enjoyment you're having while playing, but also the enjoyment of those around you.
Fix Class Skill Lines > Fix Optional Skill Lines.
If a class is under performing in PvE, then I agree THAT is an issue. Not Vampire under performing.
That is your opinion mate , being a PvE player , i think they should focus on first balazing everything so people stop getting annoyed while playing the PvE content and only then balance for PvP , which will take much longer.
Being a vampire was already a pain in PvE , they started the nerfs before most player even had a chance to see how the skills should even trully work.
Also , while i agree that class bugs are a big issue , being a vampire is something that affects player from ALL classes , so no less important.
This is not my opinion.
PvP = Player vs. PLAYER. You're not the only party involved.
PvE = Player vs. ENVIRONMENT. Your "competition" is AI, they do not care whether you're OP or not.
It is my opinion that because more players are affected, that PvP balances should come first. In contrast, for PvE content, you have your class skills to fall back on, and should not be dependent upon the Vampire skill lines, otherwise something is wrong with the class, not the Vampire.
And , you are plain wrong.
Just because it is "PvP = Player vs. PLAYER. You're not the only party involved." , it does NOT mean there are more players in there.
There can be TONS in PvE overall , which would make fixing it for their experience much more important than to the few people playing PvP , just because those few want to compete.
Ofc , this is a information only zen got , but you have NOTHING to prove that more player get affected in PvP than in PvE.
My comments are flying over your head.
1. When you destroy some AI NPC, it feels good to you and that's final.
2. When you destroy an enemy player, it feels good to you and sucks for the person who got destroyed. Now maybe they are bad, but in the case of Vampire, too many people were getting destroyed because they were not Vampires.
Scenario 1: 1 player affected.
Scenario 2: 2 players affected.
Not sure how I can make it any more elementary, and for that I will apologize.
I understood your point , but you are oversimplifying this and again , you are clearly saying more are affected by PvP , when that might not be the case at all.
Lets assume something , which can be wrong or be untrue , there is 1 PvP player in ESO for each 10 PvE players.
Now, any change that affects the PvE players is much more important , because it does not matter if it takes 2 to make a PvP interaction , the ratio of PvE player to PvP player is 10:1.
Do you understand my point now?
Just because it takes a minimum of 2 in PvP , it does not mean it affects more players than in PvE.
Therefore balancing to make sure things work in PvE first , and then worring about PvP , might make more players happy.
Also , being a player on Vet3 , the PvE content is nothing to just faceroll , i went down TONS of times on my templar because of completely OP bosses that come with 12k HP, are imu to CCs and hit like trucks , which returns to the need to balance PvE.
Again , i dont have the info to make this claim , but neither does you."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
htoncic✭✭✭If only they'd changed ultimate cost reduction to be multiplicative instead of additive, the real problem would have been solved and the skill line wouldn't have been utterly destroyed.2 -
WilliamTee✭✭✭The idea that people can defend this flawed mechanic is utterly bizarre to me.
They fixed something that ruined half the game, and will continue to work towards fixing things that inconvenience a small fraction of the player base.3 -
concobar✭✭✭WilliamTee wrote: »The idea that people can defend this flawed mechanic is utterly bizarre to me.
They fixed something that ruined half the game, and will continue to work towards fixing things that inconvenience a small fraction of the player base.
You actually think anything was fixed?
I will still look across the lands from my perch at Arrius, Nerf or no I will still be the Night. I may not be the hero Ebonheart Pact wanted but I will be the hero Ebonheart pact deserves.3 -
Trenith✭✭WilliamTee wrote: »The idea that people can defend this flawed mechanic is utterly bizarre to me.
They fixed something that ruined half the game, and will continue to work towards fixing things that inconvenience a small fraction of the player base.
They didn't fix anything. Nerfing something to the point of being not useful in PvE nor PvP anymore because the rest of the line is broken is not a fix, that is a bandaid to a flesh a wound.
While I said I am a DK Vamp and I do agree with the changes that needed to be made they needed to be made in PvP though as they had said would be done. Affecting PvE because of PvP is not proper balancing. You cannot balance a game by balancing PvE with PvP and visa-versa. You must balance PvE to the PvE content available and PvP must be balanced to the classes and play in PvP.
Everyone was expecting something to happen which is true but a flat out nerf to a broken line without fixing the issue is not acceptable.
We will continue to see though the strong builds get nerfed and it will recycle over and over again. It always does. Yesterday, bat vamps were the strength. Now people will go to banner dks till craglorn or that patch. Then people will go to the next strong build. Their will never be a strong build for too long without people getting upset and crying about it; that is just the fact of the matter. But again and I have said it many times, that is not the issue. The issue is nerfing before fixing and now leaving everything broken and useless. Drain is the only thing now sustainably viable from the vamp line.
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ChairGraveyard✭✭✭✭WilliamTee wrote: »The idea that people can defend this flawed mechanic is utterly bizarre to me.
They fixed something that ruined half the game, and will continue to work towards fixing things that inconvenience a small fraction of the player base.
What's more bizarre is people who come into a thread, don't bother reading any of the posts, and still feel the need to add their irrelevant nonsense.
Protip: Try reading the thread - the real problem is ultimate cost reduction, which is still an issue after this nerf, which mostly nerfed Drain and Mist Form, and barely affected Bat Swarm abusers.
But then, had you read the thread in the first place, you'd know that and not have to have things repeated to you constantly.0 -
concobar✭✭✭Drain rarely works in PvP.I will still look across the lands from my perch at Arrius, Nerf or no I will still be the Night. I may not be the hero Ebonheart Pact wanted but I will be the hero Ebonheart pact deserves.1
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LazerusKI✭✭✭This patch was the reason why im NOT paying another month for a while.
- Nerfing before Fixing? Bad
- Nerfing in PVE because of PVP problems? Bad
- Nerfing the wrong thing? (ONE Ability, not the possibility to Stack multiple cost-reduction buffs) Bad
As long as there will be no "real patch" - nope, not with me.2 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drain rarely works in PvP.
It sometimes works in pve and sometimes you end up with your face caved in because it did the animation but didn't leech anything or it doesn't do anything at all and your character just stands there twiddling their thumbs.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB1 -
nickackub17_ESOSoul ShrivenIn one of my guilds we have max people in the guild...that's 500 people...only 20 of them actually pvp. Why should PVE be penalized for the poor choices of a few?
In guild wars 2 some of the skills are different from pve and pvp to balance them for competitive play and that is how it should be done in this game and as for the skill reduction they could have just left it at 60% and have it not affect Bat Swarm2 -
LunaRae✭✭✭✭I'm not a vampire, but I can speak on behalf of night blades (and I'm sure others can speak on behalf of other classes) but overall lots of class abilities need fixing. Just because you got the nerf stick doesn't entitle vampires to receive ability fixes prior to class abilities. This whole conversation wouldn't even take place if Zeni would just fix every ability so it worked as it should. I share your pain in broken abilities, but don't direct your entitlement to other players.Stands-Strong-As-Snow ~ Argonian Templar DC NA V14
Ytheri ~ Argonian Nightblade EP Thornblade NA V14
Heals-All-Colours ~ Argonian Templar EP Thornblade NA V14
Stands-In-Still-Waters~ Argonian Sorcerer EP Thornblade NA V20 -
ChairGraveyard✭✭✭✭Drain rarely works in PvP.
This. It's really funny when people come in and knee-jerk whine about Drain, despite the fact that it's basically useless in PvP given it can be broken out of trivially and costs a ton, and the drain part is bugged and breaks too.
Plus you can only do it once per person.I'm not a vampire, but I can speak on behalf of night blades (and I'm sure others can speak on behalf of other classes) but overall lots of class abilities need fixing. Just because you got the nerf stick doesn't entitle vampires to receive ability fixes prior to class abilities. This whole conversation wouldn't even take place if Zeni would just fix every ability so it worked as it should. I share your pain in broken abilities, but don't direct your entitlement to other players.
Then you won't have any problem with them nerfing your entire class of skills before bothering to fix them?Edited by ChairGraveyard on May 5, 2014 11:25PM3 -
Sunrock✭✭✭This patch was the reason why im NOT paying another month for a while.
- Nerfing before Fixing? Bad
- Nerfing in PVE because of PVP problems? Bad
- Nerfing the wrong thing? (ONE Ability, not the possibility to Stack multiple cost-reduction buffs) Bad
As long as there will be no "real patch" - nope, not with me.
It had to be nerfed for PvE too before Craglorn comes out and you are competing about getting on the high-score list with other players. Games have to be well balanced if they are competitive. PvE has always been competitive in online games sens the MUD days. So unbalanced skill lines is not only a problem for PvP.
And way they are nerfing it before fixing it is because there are some vampires that have fond ways to exploit the bugs of vampires to be way to OP so they had to do something fast. Blame the few vampire players that can't behave.
The stages is probably related to all the other network phasing bugs that they have problem fixing so. I rather see they do this then wait 10 months before they do anything because they have trouble fixing some underlaying core mechanic of the server network code.0 -
Trenith✭✭The stages is probably related to all the other network phasing bugs that they have problem fixing so. I rather see they do this then wait 10 months before they do anything because they have trouble fixing some underlaying core mechanic of the server network code.
Everything is already fixed on the PTS but they nerf instead of applying the fix and nerf.
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Laura✭✭✭✭✭
✭there is still plenty of reason to be a vampire in PvE. the ultimate is still great. There just isn't enough to make people feel like they HAVE to be a vampire.0 -
better remove the 10 instant blinks from sorcerer instead of nerfing vamp already.2 -
QQ my 3 skills I used got nurfed!?!
Learn to play the game and use the other abilities.2 -
Corithna✭✭✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »If those nerfs bother you that much then yes, there clearly is no reason for YOU to be a vampire anymore. They are still quite viable and useful to a good number of roles and situations.
Yes the passives need fixing along with a couple of other balancing issues, but if these nerfs made the spec useless to you, stop trying to just make use of the most overpowered/broken skills in the game and learn to play better....
Are you even a vampire? If not then keep your flapper shut please. You have no idea how irritating it is to get your stage buff RESET every time you zone, take a wayshrine or just by simply relogging. I find this patch note offensive, and I cannot fathom what went through the mind of the person who green lighted this patch.
The fixes that you're asking for require a much larger patch that alter some key systems. Today's patch was to temporarily address some problems that are happening concerning a combination of skills that are not functioning properly and are incorrectly allowing for some very overpowered situations.
This last patch is an example of what simple fixes can look like, small patch size, adjust a few charts, a few values and move on. But due to the root cause of the problems you list a more fundamental solution that involve how the game engine works and not just the values that it works with is required to truly resolve the issue.
Be patient, the fixes are incoming. The best strat for the time being is to just stay fed to level 1 or 2. Feeding once every couple of hours will grant you this, and will minimize the health regen penalty. Once the real fix is in place you'll be much happier, as we will all, to finally gain the proper cost reduction to vampire skill costs.Edited by Corithna on May 6, 2014 5:17AMFor all the millions of pages of codified law we have enacted in this nation alone, all of it, every word, sentence, paragraph and nuance, is steeped in the singular idea of this:
"Be good to one another."1 -
nez✭✭✭nerf nerf neeeeeeerf
Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na Batmaaaan1 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭The nerf is fine with me since im fed up seeing people who dont have skills in pvp trying to cry about how op vamp is where in fact it is all about l2p issue.
What sucks is that they implemented the nerf without fixing the vampire passive bugs!
They couldve done both. 2 birds with 1 stone. But nope! They have to be lazyass and only implemented the nerf since it is easier.2 -
Zolyok✭✭✭For people who play Vamp for the fun of being a Vamp just thanks all those vampire who abuse of the system over and over.
It's because of them if the vampire is nerfed before get fixed.
There is almost 2 or 3 weeks of complain because of those vampire, and for bugged Vampire skill ? Almost nothing compared to the complain
If you want something to change you must have a lot of people and post in forum everyday and even with this it's not shure Zeni will take care of it .
Zeni appear to be barely listenning to player and to have a very long time of reaction.
In some game skill exploit have been corrected 6 hours after is apparition.2 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭For people who play Vamp for the fun of being a Vamp just thanks all those vampire who abuse of the system over and over.
It's because of them if the vampire is nerfed before get fixed.
There is almost 2 or 3 weeks of complain because of those vampire, and for bugged Vampire skill ? Almost nothing compared to the complain
If you want something to change you must have a lot of people and post in forum everyday and even with this it's not shure Zeni will take care of it .
Zeni appear to be barely listenning to player and to have a very long time of reaction.
In some game skill exploit have been corrected 6 hours after is apparition.
Dont worry man, since i cancelled my subscription and have nothing else to do. Ill be spamming the forums to get the passive bug fix ASAP
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i dont do pvp yet, but i do alot of pve and being a vampire now i cant do anything without removing vampire abilties, cuz my ultimate will take the somewhere between 10-15 min to recharge with somewhat constant dungeon combat, if iam not in stage 4, which i dont like to be and been trying to avoid, but glad too see all the people who rejoice this, maybe cuz they are just as bad as the imba pvp vamps and dont like a balanced game, but i do so can we fix it, cuz as it is for me its just a bad fire res which you have to work for not getting worse, no benefits.0
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭
At the moment they're is now no reason to be a vampire now that the stages are nerfed in both PvE and PvP (though the nerf was supposed to be applied only to in Cyrodil according
Good. Every other player seems to be a vampire. If the game must have this sort of crap there should be penalties. They should not be happily shopping, members of fighters guilds etc etc.
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Ako✭I think the fix misses the point a bit, sure bat swarm shouldn't be stackable but, for me, an ultimate shouldn't be ready to be fired again when the 5 second previous ultimate is still active.
Aren't ultimates supposed to be, you know, ultimate? Not just another spammable skill on the bar.
If I was given the task of fixing this I'd add a 1 min cooldown to all ultimates, then start work on improving all those *** worthless ultimates that most classes have instead of nerfing the few good ultimate abilities.1 -
vaxure✭✭✭How is it people don't understand the concept of nurf before the fix? This was obviously something that needed to be implemented quickly because of the extreme imbalance in pvp. more changes will be coming to fix the skill line but they were not ready yet. It's a pretty simple concept really. (btw i'm NB Vamp if it matters)0 -
htoncic✭✭✭The only imbalance came from dumb players. Oh look, it's a vamp in bat swarm! Let's go stand next to them and try to hit them while they're untargetable! Wait, what, I died?! FML nerf!
My group has been killing vamps for weeks in PvP. In fact, they are among the easiest to kill, since they want to be in melee and have to dedicate their skill bar to their build. And when you counter them, by say, placing a Negate Magic on them, they melt like butter.
Look, yes vamps were meta, maybe the first FOTM for this game, but that just made them vulnerable to counters, which everyone should have packed. I agree, a change was in order, for the sake of diversity, but ZOS changed the wrong thing (should have addressed ulti cost reduction stacking) and they went too far by destroying what few vamp skills worked while leaving the bugged skills broken.4 -
blackwolf7✭✭✭How is it people don't understand the concept of nurf before the fix? This was obviously something that needed to be implemented quickly because of the extreme imbalance in pvp. more changes will be coming to fix the skill line but they were not ready yet. It's a pretty simple concept really. (btw i'm NB Vamp if it matters)
Ehhh? Patch 1.1 says they are indeed ready for deployment. So there is no reason to delay the implementation of it.
They already nerf the class by changing the vampire skill tree. What's their excuse of not applying the patch that fixes it at the same time0 -
Malmai✭✭✭✭✭
✭jnormanb14a_ESO wrote: »They should have first fixed the Vampire and nerf'd afterwards.
So, what do I have now? My vampires power got heavily reduced, but I still need to relog after every single death. I still need to drop from Stage 4 to Stage 3 after changing zone.
So every player who wasn't a Vampire had to have 20+ people to kill a single Vampire, right?
So much selfishness.
This was stacking ult try 1v1 vs vampire without that and tell me how OP they are ? There is too much punishment if they got -75% health regen and they get 50% more fire dmg they are totally useless now.
A little off topic AK47 in CS is OP as well if you are not a noob.1