Nerfing a skill line before fixing the skills?

SunfireKnight86

Whatever yours is +1.

Not going to engage any further in the actual discussion, huh? Can't form a coherent argument based on any facts, just /forumrage at losing your cheap build?

You know what? Better make it +2.

ShadowOfOblivion

Glurin wrote: »

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What is it that you are having trouble understanding? Two or three or more simultaneous bat swarms allowed for considerable AoE damage in addition to enough health recovery to virtually ignore the incoming attacks from twenty, thirty or forty enemy players. Especially in combination with the 75% damage mitigation from mist form in addition to whatever else they already happened to have.

Now how much DPS do you think thirty people can generate? In total. I'm not interested in the DPS of individual players because it's irrelevant in this case. And don't you dare try claiming that each and every one of them is a completely incompetent noob spamming nothing but light attacks with a sword or something. Although I might be inclined to let you claim that not a single one of them thought to consider using fire or fighters guild abilities.

Now ask yourself if the game is at all balanced in that state or if such behavior would be intentional.

By the way, one thing being imbalanced does not justify another.

So now let's try to continue from here...

What gave the exploiters the ability you described?

And let me see if you will agree with the issues I describe:
1) Stackable ultimates on top of each other - bug / exploit/whatever you like to call it -> MUST BE GONE! (already done)
2) Stackable cost reduction WITHOUT ANY CAP! -> Must be gone (nothing done here)
3) Healing (only from Bat Swarm) during mist form even thou the ability description clearly states that you can't receive healing -> Must be fixed! (nothing done here)

So instead of placing a hard cap on how much an ability cost can be reduced and fixing the other 2 things they nerfed heavily a skill line without even fixing its passives. Do you still believe that's the correct way?

Why not do the 3 things I stated above and see how it goes? A nerf is easy to do it's just a change of a value in a table and can be done 1-2 weeks later if the problem continue...

Plus if you do a heavy change on a skill line - everybody affected deserves a free respec as most people have not exploited and shouldn't pay for the guilt of a few...


Edit: I'll not answer to stupid questions. Obviously 1 player shouldn't be like a vanila WoW raid boss (they were 40 man back then), the thing that is pointed by most of the people "crying" about the Vamps nerf is that it was NOT justified as there was better way to fix the problem AND AFTER THIS if there is need nerfs can be done with ease!

1. Well well, looks like we made some progress.

2. They did reduce the reduction on vamp abilities. Reduction everywhere else is not causing that much of a problem at the moment. At least not on the scale that it was on vampires. You have to realize that if you nerf reduction in general, you're hitting every other ultimate. Not just bat swarm.

3. Mist form has other bugs, apparently. They will be fixed in time. Not sure there's been word from the devs on whether drain healing in mist form was intentional, though it is doubtful that it is. However, with the bat swarm fix and the cost reduction nerfed, the combination is not nearly as strong as it was.

Interesting how you state a nerf was not justified after finally admitting that it was though.

I will do a last try...obviously if you can't get it you are just a troll that believes he's better than all and only reason he's killed is OP abilities...

Where I said they must nerf reduction over all? Just put a HARD CAP on it. 60% or 50%...don't you think that if VR10 guys use a VR1 set (or the lvl20? version) this means something is BROKEN in this set? Maybe it's too powerful? Just like the Warlock set that is again VR1 but let you regen too much magica...

Or you will say that the above is OK? Being max level and using low level sets because their bonuses are TOO GOOD and actually OP is OK? I'd like to see those few sets removed from the game and see how many PvP noobs will cry then...

mowind

All these pages of comments and i can see a few glaring issues..

1. Vamps were OP in cyrodill
2. Vamps are now useless in PVE (aside from a skill or two)


I can explain things to you, but i cant understand them for you....

steveb16_ESO46

When the vamp skill line offers no more advantage than any other skill line it will be 'fixed'.

FENGRUSH

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

Whatever yours is +1.

Not going to engage any further in the actual discussion, huh? Can't form a coherent argument based on any facts, just /forumrage at losing your cheap build?

You know what? Better make it +2.

I dont even know what youre arguing. Yes bat swarm doesnt stack and do high burst damage. But no, this doesnt mean they cannot still drain to full every second. If they stay clear of being CCd and stay inside people, they can sitll maintain DPS, just not the burst of before. This is what I was telling the other low tier PVP player before you jumped in saying Im making assumptions about the fact that vampire swarm will still heal you to full if youre in a crowd of 10 people.

According to him, that made you 'invincible'. Same level of invincibility is still present, just not the damage factor.

Youre acting like I lost something and Im upset about it. Yet Im trying to tell you, from a survival perspective I can function to the same effect as I did prepatch. Im pretty happy about that, and you dont see DKs chaining and stacking them anymore with ease.

You can continue trying to argue your points about PvP to someone whos both a better player and higher ranked.

Zethrion

1) Hard cap on the reduction of the cost of ultimate's... make it 60 or 70%
2) Not able to stack them on one an other...

Those 2 in them self is a fair nerf, the rest is beating someone down on there knees...

Now fix the all the passive before hardcore nerf, and you will have a less rage calls on the forums...

Okay reading all the post yet again, i think i notice something new...

All Agree that vampires should not be able to stack Bat swam and do million per person damage...
So the nerf that it does not stack with it self, is fine and i havent heard ANYONE complain about that... its the rest of the nerfs thats been complaining about...

concobar

It is worth taking Vamp as a NB just for Dark Stalker. Sure I wish they would fix the rest and I am glad they fixed the Bat stacks but Dark Stalker makes being a NB assassin quite a bit better.

Drachenfier

I don't play Vampire at all and I think it was a poor decision. Especially nerfing abilities before fixing broken ones. That's why I asked earlier if any of these devs came from Mythic.

Glurin

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What is it that you are having trouble understanding? Two or three or more simultaneous bat swarms allowed for considerable AoE damage in addition to enough health recovery to virtually ignore the incoming attacks from twenty, thirty or forty enemy players. Especially in combination with the 75% damage mitigation from mist form in addition to whatever else they already happened to have.

Now how much DPS do you think thirty people can generate? In total. I'm not interested in the DPS of individual players because it's irrelevant in this case. And don't you dare try claiming that each and every one of them is a completely incompetent noob spamming nothing but light attacks with a sword or something. Although I might be inclined to let you claim that not a single one of them thought to consider using fire or fighters guild abilities.

Now ask yourself if the game is at all balanced in that state or if such behavior would be intentional.

By the way, one thing being imbalanced does not justify another.

So now let's try to continue from here...

What gave the exploiters the ability you described?

And let me see if you will agree with the issues I describe:
1) Stackable ultimates on top of each other - bug / exploit/whatever you like to call it -> MUST BE GONE! (already done)
2) Stackable cost reduction WITHOUT ANY CAP! -> Must be gone (nothing done here)
3) Healing (only from Bat Swarm) during mist form even thou the ability description clearly states that you can't receive healing -> Must be fixed! (nothing done here)

So instead of placing a hard cap on how much an ability cost can be reduced and fixing the other 2 things they nerfed heavily a skill line without even fixing its passives. Do you still believe that's the correct way?

Why not do the 3 things I stated above and see how it goes? A nerf is easy to do it's just a change of a value in a table and can be done 1-2 weeks later if the problem continue...

Plus if you do a heavy change on a skill line - everybody affected deserves a free respec as most people have not exploited and shouldn't pay for the guilt of a few...


Edit: I'll not answer to stupid questions. Obviously 1 player shouldn't be like a vanila WoW raid boss (they were 40 man back then), the thing that is pointed by most of the people "crying" about the Vamps nerf is that it was NOT justified as there was better way to fix the problem AND AFTER THIS if there is need nerfs can be done with ease!

1. Well well, looks like we made some progress.

2. They did reduce the reduction on vamp abilities. Reduction everywhere else is not causing that much of a problem at the moment. At least not on the scale that it was on vampires. You have to realize that if you nerf reduction in general, you're hitting every other ultimate. Not just bat swarm.

3. Mist form has other bugs, apparently. They will be fixed in time. Not sure there's been word from the devs on whether drain healing in mist form was intentional, though it is doubtful that it is. However, with the bat swarm fix and the cost reduction nerfed, the combination is not nearly as strong as it was.

Interesting how you state a nerf was not justified after finally admitting that it was though.

Where I said they must nerf reduction over all?Just put a HARD CAP on it. 60% or 50%...don't you think that if VR10 guys use a VR1 set (or the lvl20? version) this means something is BROKEN in this set? Maybe it's too powerful? Just like the Warlock set that is again VR1 but let you regen too much magica...

Or you will say that the above is OK? Being max level and using low level sets because their bonuses are TOO GOOD and actually OP is OK? I'd like to see those few sets removed from the game and see how many PvP noobs will cry then...

No, the set is not necessarily broken if max level players are using it. Besides, they are trading higher values on other stats using it. Given that you need at least three pieces for the set bonus to take effect, that can be a pretty fair sized chunk of stats.

Something to keep people from hitting 100% reduction would be fine, but removing these sets from the game or hard capping it at 50% or less is getting too nerf happy.

concobar

Drachenfier wrote: »

I don't play Vampire at all and I think it was a poor decision. Especially nerfing abilities before fixing broken ones. That's why I asked earlier if any of these devs came from Mythic.

Firor.

Evaner

I'm a Nightblade Vampire. The nerfs don't really bother me, what really makes me suffer is the broken passives. On top of that, there is a bug with certain weapons that get me out of stealth/cloak whenever I swap bars. Additionally, said weapons' critical % doesn't add correctly when equipping them.
Whenever I die I have to go thru a relog (Cyrodiil screen hai) for the Vampire passives, then spend 5-10 mins swapping weapons on and off until the stealth bug magically fixes itself. It's beyond disheartening.

Zethrion

Glurin wrote: »

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

ShadowOfOblivion wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

What is it that you are having trouble understanding? Two or three or more simultaneous bat swarms allowed for considerable AoE damage in addition to enough health recovery to virtually ignore the incoming attacks from twenty, thirty or forty enemy players. Especially in combination with the 75% damage mitigation from mist form in addition to whatever else they already happened to have.

Now how much DPS do you think thirty people can generate? In total. I'm not interested in the DPS of individual players because it's irrelevant in this case. And don't you dare try claiming that each and every one of them is a completely incompetent noob spamming nothing but light attacks with a sword or something. Although I might be inclined to let you claim that not a single one of them thought to consider using fire or fighters guild abilities.

Now ask yourself if the game is at all balanced in that state or if such behavior would be intentional.

By the way, one thing being imbalanced does not justify another.

So now let's try to continue from here...

What gave the exploiters the ability you described?

And let me see if you will agree with the issues I describe:
1) Stackable ultimates on top of each other - bug / exploit/whatever you like to call it -> MUST BE GONE! (already done)
2) Stackable cost reduction WITHOUT ANY CAP! -> Must be gone (nothing done here)
3) Healing (only from Bat Swarm) during mist form even thou the ability description clearly states that you can't receive healing -> Must be fixed! (nothing done here)

So instead of placing a hard cap on how much an ability cost can be reduced and fixing the other 2 things they nerfed heavily a skill line without even fixing its passives. Do you still believe that's the correct way?

Why not do the 3 things I stated above and see how it goes? A nerf is easy to do it's just a change of a value in a table and can be done 1-2 weeks later if the problem continue...

Plus if you do a heavy change on a skill line - everybody affected deserves a free respec as most people have not exploited and shouldn't pay for the guilt of a few...


Edit: I'll not answer to stupid questions. Obviously 1 player shouldn't be like a vanila WoW raid boss (they were 40 man back then), the thing that is pointed by most of the people "crying" about the Vamps nerf is that it was NOT justified as there was better way to fix the problem AND AFTER THIS if there is need nerfs can be done with ease!

1. Well well, looks like we made some progress.

2. They did reduce the reduction on vamp abilities. Reduction everywhere else is not causing that much of a problem at the moment. At least not on the scale that it was on vampires. You have to realize that if you nerf reduction in general, you're hitting every other ultimate. Not just bat swarm.

3. Mist form has other bugs, apparently. They will be fixed in time. Not sure there's been word from the devs on whether drain healing in mist form was intentional, though it is doubtful that it is. However, with the bat swarm fix and the cost reduction nerfed, the combination is not nearly as strong as it was.

Interesting how you state a nerf was not justified after finally admitting that it was though.

Where I said they must nerf reduction over all?Just put a HARD CAP on it. 60% or 50%...don't you think that if VR10 guys use a VR1 set (or the lvl20? version) this means something is BROKEN in this set? Maybe it's too powerful? Just like the Warlock set that is again VR1 but let you regen too much magica...

Or you will say that the above is OK? Being max level and using low level sets because their bonuses are TOO GOOD and actually OP is OK? I'd like to see those few sets removed from the game and see how many PvP noobs will cry then...

No, the set is not necessarily broken if max level players are using it. Besides, they are trading higher values on other stats using it. Given that you need at least three pieces for the set bonus to take effect, that can be a pretty fair sized chunk of stats.

Something to keep people from hitting 100% reduction would be fine, but removing these sets from the game or hard capping it at 50% or less is getting too nerf happy.

So if they fix the problem all over not just for Vamps its a Nerf happy... haha basicly when the nerf will hit you, and fix all that peeps are complain about its to much....
Lol man LOL

Singular

Evaner wrote: »

I'm a Nightblade Vampire. The nerfs don't really bother me, what really makes me suffer is the broken passives. On top of that, there is a bug with certain weapons that get me out of stealth/cloak whenever I swap bars. Additionally, said weapons' critical % doesn't add correctly when equipping them.
Whenever I die I have to go thru a relog (Cyrodiil screen hai) for the Vampire passives, then spend 5-10 mins swapping weapons on and off until the stealth bug magically fixes itself. It's beyond disheartening.

Yeah. I've basically stopped playing my NB Vamp. I mean, really, if more than half the stuff doesn't work and the other stuff stops you from doing anything, what's the point in playing? Just to run around looking at the scenery?

Daethz

Yeah, they screwed vampire up by doing this.
They fixed the spells that where being abused and at the same time nerfed the entire skillset to also fend off abuse, overnerfing the entire skillset far too much.