Remove minor resolve from vigor

relog · March 2023

Everyone uses this skill right now, everyone. Whats was the point of adding kinda uniqe buff for everyone in pvp? Apart that its already stronger heal, than Rapid Regeneration, it also give free mitigation.

Billium813 · March 2023

Yes

The ubiquitous usage of Vigor is an issue ZOS needs to look into.

It's entirely too strong given its availability to literally every class as a generic skill. Resolving Vigor is the single strongest personal HoT. Echoing Vigor is the single best group HoT, largely due to the stacking it does, but also given how many group members it applies to and how cheap it is to cast; it punches far above its weight. It also hurts dedicated Healer roles by causing them to become almost entirely redundant. It's one of the single largest crutches for mid-level players forcing themselves into high level content; which is probably why ZOS is loathe to do anything about it.

thesarahandcompany · March 2023

Yes

relog wrote: »

Everyone uses this skill right now, everyone. Whats was the point of adding kinda uniqe buff for everyone in pvp? Apart that its already stronger heal, than Rapid Regeneration, it also give free mitigation.

On it's face I vote yes.

BUT, the better solution would ultimately be to buff rapid regeneration or radiating regeneration to that of vigor.

Rapid and radiating do SIGNIFICANTLY less healing. And provide no mitigation.

Billium813 · March 2023

Yes

relog wrote: »

Whats was the point of adding kinda uniqe buff for everyone in pvp?

To answer this question specifically though, I believe Resolving Vigor was given Minor Resolve because of the buffs prevalence in PvE, but rather rarity in PvP. In PvE, Minor Resolve is kind of redundant with Combat Prayer, but isn't very common in PvP (outside of sets like Magma Incarnate)

In short, they wanted it to be a buff with limited PvE usage, but good PvP usage.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7683902/#Comment_7683902

Alliance War
- Assault
  - Vigor
    - Resolving Vigor (morph): Reverted the healing reductions made to this morph. It now grants Minor Resolve, rather than Major Resolve, to prevent the skill from actively harming class identity and importance to run other sources of this buff.

Batmanna · March 2023

No

No. It's usable by every class and every spec and it's a great tool all around. I don't get the " this is good nerf this", I'd much prefer seeing a buff to the alternatives that are currently subpar in term of performance.

AdamLAD · March 2023

Yes

Batmanna I want, by that logic, Healing Ward to provide minor heroism or major protection as the skill is just so terrible.
I want Rapid regeneration to give minor vitality.
Would anyone want these changes?

ItsNotLiving · March 2023

Yes

AdamLAD wrote: »

Batmanna I want, by that logic, Healing Ward to provide minor heroism or major protection as the skill is just so terrible.
I want Rapid regeneration to give minor vitality.
Would anyone want these changes?

Sorry mate misread your statement there you’re 100% correct.

Batmanna · March 2023

No

AdamLAD I'll be honest , i'd much prefer giving rapids a minor buff and up the tooltip than removing min resolve from vigor. Probably unpopular opinion but I'd prefer to have an alternative tool than having "choice" because one of the alternatives had the legs cut out

acastanza_ESO · March 2023

Either the minor resolve needs to be removed from Vigor, or Regen needs to be buffed to be comparable. Either way the skills need to be brought in-line with each other, and I don't particularly care how.

This is yet another area where the combat design team has been explicitly biased towards stamina specs to the point where it is causing severe game imbalances.

That said, the last thing we really need is stronger heals until ZOS finally decides to address the egregious issue of heal stacking.

OBJnoob · March 2023

Yes

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is yet another area where the combat design team has been explicitly biased towards stamina specs to the point where it is causing severe game imbalances.

Name some heals that cost stamina to cast.

Turtle_Bot · March 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is yet another area where the combat design team has been explicitly biased towards stamina specs to the point where it is causing severe game imbalances.

Name some heals that cost stamina to cast.

Rally, Vigor, Warden shrooms, probably more, but there's 3 off the top of my head

Howda · March 2023

No

relog wrote: »

Everyone uses this skill right now, everyone. Whats was the point of adding kinda uniqe buff for everyone in pvp? Apart that its already stronger heal, than Rapid Regeneration, it also give free mitigation.

I would not say that is the solution. Vigor now with minor resolve closes the gap between new players and exp ones both pve and pvp.

The problem is Echoing Vigor and stacking healing with no limits. They need to make Healing over time to be named buff and that can stack twice or to have cascading deductible effect. Every next stack to have weaker effects. The skills by having minor resolve are fine atm imo.

The topic is opened for few times in the forum, let's see if Devs will consider it in the future.

Luede · March 2023

No

the problem is not that vigor is too strong, but that rapid reg is too weak. furthermore, the class-specific healing spells should rather be reduced significantly.

in the whole discussion you should not forget that there are classes (Sorc) which have no other healing spells and are completely dependent on Vigor with a stamina spec.

OBJnoob · March 2023

Yes

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is yet another area where the combat design team has been explicitly biased towards stamina specs to the point where it is causing severe game imbalances.

Name some heals that cost stamina to cast.

Rally, Vigor, Warden shrooms, probably more, but there's 3 off the top of my head

Yes, those 3. Those are the ones I can think of as well. Now shall we name magic heals? Or is my point understood?

I know... Just for fun... Let's see if I can hit the number 3 for each class instead of the entire game.

NB: Dark cloak, refreshing path, healthy offering
DK: Coag, Burning Embers, Obsidian Shard
Warden: living Trellis, Lotus Blossom, Polar Winds
Sorc: Crit Surge, Matriarch, Dark Deal has both morphs so I guess I can't do it for sorc.

I've never played Templar or Necro so I have to stop there.

Point being that healing doesnt favor stamina at all. Couldn't be further from the truth. Most stam builds use magic heals. So having someone saying Vigor being stronger than Regen is a problem seems wrong to me. Magic toons can simply use Vigor too.

The only reason why I voted yes was because OP said something I found insightful: Whats the benefit in having minor resolve if everybody has minor resolve? Clearly just adds to the tank meta.

There's nothing wrong with the heal value. If healing needs to be nerfed let it be nerfed across the board. Don't nerf the one good stam heal out of some misguided notion that stam toons have a healing advantage. Wardens don't use shrooms (I dunno, maybe healers do,) and Rally has already been nerfed (it used to be a HoT as well.)

Turtle_Bot · March 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is yet another area where the combat design team has been explicitly biased towards stamina specs to the point where it is causing severe game imbalances.

Name some heals that cost stamina to cast.

Rally, Vigor, Warden shrooms, probably more, but there's 3 off the top of my head

Yes, those 3. Those are the ones I can think of as well. Now shall we name magic heals? Or is my point understood?

I know... Just for fun... Let's see if I can hit the number 3 for each class instead of the entire game.

NB: Dark cloak, refreshing path, healthy offering
DK: Coag, Burning Embers, Obsidian Shard
Warden: living Trellis, Lotus Blossom, Polar Winds
Sorc: Crit Surge, Matriarch, Dark Deal has both morphs so I guess I can't do it for sorc.

I've never played Templar or Necro so I have to stop there.

Point being that healing doesnt favor stamina at all. Couldn't be further from the truth. Most stam builds use magic heals. So having someone saying Vigor being stronger than Regen is a problem seems wrong to me. Magic toons can simply use Vigor too.

The only reason why I voted yes was because OP said something I found insightful: Whats the benefit in having minor resolve if everybody has minor resolve? Clearly just adds to the tank meta.

There's nothing wrong with the heal value. If healing needs to be nerfed let it be nerfed across the board. Don't nerf the one good stam heal out of some misguided notion that stam toons have a healing advantage. Wardens don't use shrooms (I dunno, maybe healers do,) and Rally has already been nerfed (it used to be a HoT as well.)

Not sure where that came from, people aren't asking for a vigor nerf because "stamina have a healing advantage" they're asking for it to be nerfed because the ability is massively over performing compared to majority of equivalent heals while also being available via a base game non-weapon/non-class skill line that takes all of 5 minutes to unlock at level 10.

People would be saying the same thing about radiating if it was as strong and easily accessible as vigor and didn't require running a resto staff to use.

Sergykid · March 2023

it's both correct and incorrect

comparing vigor with resto regen is wrong, one can be cast on ur group member, and on multiple of them at that, and other is only self. One cost mag, but requires u specific weapon.

yes resto spells need some buffing but not too much, and vigor could use a nerf but it's fine as it is.
these things should be viewed compared not just to a standard but also to all their traits and appliances

NordSwordnBoard · March 2023

Yes

It wasn't asked for. Adding it was not needed and if you remove it vigor will still be heavily used.

OBJnoob · March 2023

Yes

@Turtle_Bot It came from the same place my other post that you responded to came from. I am saying that stam specs do not have an advantage in healing because someone else said they did.

Sergykid · March 2023

but stam maybe isn't supposed to have good healing cuz u block and dodge more. However they do with mag hybrid. So why wouldn't mags use the stam heal.

Billium813 · March 2023

Yes

Sergykid wrote: »

but stam maybe isn't supposed to have good healing cuz u block and dodge more. However they do with mag hybrid. So why wouldn't mags use the stam heal.

Mag PvP builds typically run backbar Resto Staff for Healing Ward or Regeneration; as well as the Resto staff passives. However, some mag builds, like Warden or DK, just run double Ice Staff or backbar 1H/Shield for mitigation. They just use Resolving Vigor and Mara's Balm, even though it's a stamina skill cause it's just that good. They can focus way more this way on attack and less time on worrying about burning actions on healing. The two together basically make up 80% of the healing you need with the mitigation.

relog · March 2023

Yes

Luede wrote: »

the problem is not that vigor is too strong, but that rapid reg is too weak. furthermore, the class-specific healing spells should rather be reduced significantly.

in the whole discussion you should not forget that there are classes (Sorc) which have no other healing spells and are completely dependent on Vigor with a stamina spec.

Why everyone complain about stam or mag heal? Everybody have acces to both specs, its almost doesnt matter, you just distribute other skills between mag/stam. Vigor is almost x2 compare to almost any other heal skill in terms of efficiency, but heal already op in pvp.

ForumBully · March 2023

relog wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

the problem is not that vigor is too strong, but that rapid reg is too weak. furthermore, the class-specific healing spells should rather be reduced significantly.

in the whole discussion you should not forget that there are classes (Sorc) which have no other healing spells and are completely dependent on Vigor with a stamina spec.

Why everyone complain about stam or mag heal? Everybody have acces to both specs, its almost doesnt matter, you just distribute other skills between mag/stam. Vigor is almost x2 compare to almost any other heal skill in terms of efficiency, but heal already op in pvp.

For some it's hard to shake the idea that what a skill costs is what the skill is....Vigor isn't a "stam heal" because it costs stamina, that kind of definition is gone now for almost all skills.

SeaUnicorn · March 2023

No

Yet another nerf PVP thread that does not consider PVE. Tanks actually use selfish vigor for the Minor Resolve component...

ItsNotLiving · March 2023

Yes

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Yet another nerf PVP thread that does not consider PVE. Tanks actually use selfish vigor for the Minor Resolve component...

End game tanks would still get minor resolve from combat prayer though right?

AdamLAD · March 2023

Yes

I like how zenimax reworked Vigor to give minor resolve when the skill itself was completely fine. And just recently give Dk major berserk due to no one using it. Yet healing ward is not fine and it gets no rework, strange logic

olsborg · March 2023

Yes

Something is overtuned when the majority of players use a skill, namely vigor, another such skill is elemental susceptibility, wich is basicly spamming status effects on targets affected aswell as major breach.

Billium813 · March 2023

Yes

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Yet another nerf PVP thread that does not consider PVE. Tanks actually use selfish vigor for the Minor Resolve component...

End game tanks would still get minor resolve from combat prayer though right?

You beat me to it xD

Also, that only helps to make Healers MORE necessary. Suddenly, positioning and Healers become more important. Instead, we just give the buff to the Tank's skill and allow the Healer to be more and more redundant... #makehealersgreatagain

grzes848909 · March 2023

No

Nah, at least, not the selfish morph. Make the non selfish morph do something else.

Panderbander · March 2023

Yes

Don't worry, there's exactly one spec in the game that can't slot it for easy minor resolve. Perfectly balanced.

Luede · March 2023

No

relog wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

the problem is not that vigor is too strong, but that rapid reg is too weak. furthermore, the class-specific healing spells should rather be reduced significantly.

in the whole discussion you should not forget that there are classes (Sorc) which have no other healing spells and are completely dependent on Vigor with a stamina spec.

Why everyone complain about stam or mag heal? Everybody have acces to both specs, its almost doesnt matter, you just distribute other skills between mag/stam. Vigor is almost x2 compare to almost any other heal skill in terms of efficiency, but heal already op in pvp.

this may work for some classes, but with a sorc you can't mix skills like crazy if you don't specialize in it. shields don't make much sense with a hybrid build if you don't go for max magicka, due to the high costs nothing will change in the next patch. of course i can use a healing staff, doesn't change the fact that rapid reg is complete BS, compared to vigor. the pet generally has extreme weaknesses, of course it's good if it's ignored by everyone, unfortunately it's down in under 2 seconds if i put my focus on it for a moment.

so again for slow thinkers, as hybrid/stam sorc i have no other heal than vigor, theoretically i still have to play rapid reg in addition, but doesn't change the fact that the skill is crap. and just because every other class now has good heals, even NB by now, doesn't change the fact that i just don't have a skill that heals me and is playable.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Remove minor resolve from vigor

Remove minor resolve from vigor 107 votes