So how are we supposed to sustain Molten Whip now?

Dragonlord573 · February 2023

Helping Hands is useless once again thanks to the change in this week's patch notes, and by extension is going to make Molten Whip drastically harder to sustain. You have literally made the DK class spammable not a valid option anymore due to its nonsensical dual cost.

The main issue with Helping Hands was a PvP issue, why couldn't the new changes to Helping Hands only apply when Battle Spirit is active? This is a change that is only going to benefit the minority of players who play PvP and hurt the majority of PvE players.

Soarora · February 2023

I didn’t even think about Helping Hands on DPS… you make a good observation. Hopefully it’s not as much of an issue in reality as it is in theory.

Dragonlord573 · February 2023

Soarora wrote: »

I didn’t even think about Helping Hands on DPS… you make a good observation. Hopefully it’s not as much of an issue in reality as it is in theory.

I play a magDK, and helping hands is the only reason I can sustain whip while using stam/mag pots. I have two friends who can't even sustain whip without heroism pots. This is going to absolutely demolish DDs.

Stx · February 2023

It has a dual cost but the total cost is still similar to other spammables… I don’t see the issue. If stamina sustain is that big of an issue, then magicka sustain must be great. So maybe build more into stamina sustain? Or use more magicka dots instead of stamina dots?

Helping hands was being exploited the way it was, this is a good change. And no this doesn’t make the passive useless.

You also gain stamina from poison procs.

With all that said. ZOS please swallow your pride and just make a poison whip morph and keep one morph magicka. It’s easier for everyone.

ForumBully · February 2023

I can see worrying about sustain, but does anyone honestly believe free unlimited stamina should have ever been part of the class. Because that's what it was.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

I can see worrying about sustain, but does anyone honestly believe free unlimited stamina should have ever been part of the class. Because that's what it was.

Preach. Dragonknights have been the best DPS class in the game for patches, how were they triggering Helping Hands every second? If anything, Stamina sustain on an actual DPS will be better as you’re getting a bigger value from that passive.

Can’t believe we’re hearing complaints about an exploit being fixed.

Mr_Stach · February 2023

I mean isn't that the Point? Zos stated before that DKs struggle is supposed to be their Sustain. Since they are very durable and very damaging? It's how they limit the DPS instead of hitting it directly so you can still have those big chunky whips and such

Dragonlord573 · February 2023

ForumBully wrote: »

I can see worrying about sustain, but does anyone honestly believe free unlimited stamina should have ever been part of the class. Because that's what it was.

Which isn't something effecting PvE. This was a PvP issue and should have been an fix only for PvP. No in PvE utilizes Ash Cloud like this.

Vevvev · February 2023

I never used Helping Hands to sustain it so I can't really say anything about it, but Flame Lash still exists. Sure you're not lining up basically 2 ultimates worth of damage up, but ever since they got rid of the cooldown and made it so you can do ballerina moves constantly whipping a target for high damage that heals you it isn't a bad morph.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

Vevvev wrote: »

I never used Helping Hands to sustain it so I can't really say anything about it, but Flame Lash still exists. Sure you're not lining up basically 2 ultimates worth of damage up, but ever since they got rid of the cooldown and made it so you can do ballerina moves constantly whipping a target for high damage that heals you it isn't a bad morph.

No damage dealer did, only tanks.

It would involve spamming an Earthen Heart ability and there isn’t a damage one worth it. If you’re spamming your buffs, you’re down on DPS and are playing worse as it is.

bachpain · February 2023

You gain stamina from poison damage, you gain magica from flame damage, you gain health-magica-and-stamina every time you use an ultimate ability. Yeah, DKs have it rough...

PrinceShroob · February 2023

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I can see worrying about sustain, but does anyone honestly believe free unlimited stamina should have ever been part of the class. Because that's what it was.

Which isn't something effecting PvE. This was a PvP issue and should have been an fix only for PvP. No in PvE utilizes Ash Cloud like this.

Some tanks were running cost reduction glyphs and using Ash Cloud to gain infinite stamina for certain bosses, such as Fleet Queen Taleria.

Dragonknight DPS have two Earthen Heart skills that don't cost Stamina and would see regular use, Igneous Weapons and Eruption, which have 18-second and 60-second durations, respectively. I feel like those skills are cast so infrequently that any Stamina recovery from using them is minuscule. You're more likely to gain Stamina faster from Combustion, Battle Roar, and Undaunted Command.

SkaraMinoc · February 2023

robpr · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Can’t believe we’re hearing complaints about an exploit being fixed.

Look, there is a difference on "fixing exploit" and "making passive not functional" for PvE DPS. PVE specs only use Eruption from that entire skill line (dmg morph of Ash Cloud) and instead making it not work with reduction glyphs or having a CD, it decided to just not work with that skill. DPS do not need healing rock, 6k shield, major brutality or a stun just to have bit more stamina where mag sustain is already low. In this form it will be only useable for tanks that will be able to juggle Balance and Igneous Shield to get stamina to block.

DK passives need complete rework at this point, it is only class that require specific spec just to fully utilize Earthen Heart passives, or at least make them equally working in PvE. PvPers and Tanks fully enjoy the ult gen and Helping Hands, while pve stam specs can't trigger HH (cost too much mag needed for whip, stonefist doesnt trigger it) and mag specs cannot have full ult gain portion due to Eruption lasting for 18s.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

Soarora wrote: »

I didn’t even think about Helping Hands on DPS… you make a good observation. Hopefully it’s not as much of an issue in reality as it is in theory.

Every 2 seconds is perfectly fine. As mentioned prior, sustaining from ash cloud, especially with free cost was an exploit.

They should honestly increase the cost to match 200% of the original value, and without the ash cloud interaction, it should be okay. Makes it easier to manage also.

Evrieleth · February 2023

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I didn’t even think about Helping Hands on DPS… you make a good observation. Hopefully it’s not as much of an issue in reality as it is in theory.

I play a magDK, and helping hands is the only reason I can sustain whip while using stam/mag pots. I have two friends who can't even sustain whip without heroism pots. This is going to absolutely demolish DDs.

So you are saying that 990 stamina every 18 seconds are crucial for your sustain? Because from a PVE DD point of view the only earthen heart ability you are using in your rotation is eruption, that has an 18 seconds duration. 990 stamina every 18 second is nothing in a PVE rotation, maybe you're overcasting some other skill that impact negatively on your stamina. It won't be a problem even in PVP, i've never seen a good player spamming cinder storm to get stamina back, to be honest i've never seen any player doing that. In PVP you will actually get more stamina back when you use petrify now, good DKs know how to cycle between ultimate and potions to get their sustain, if you are smart with that rotation you can play with less than 1k regen without even needing to sneak an Heavy Attack now and then. The same concept applies to PVE, just rotate between ultimate and potions and you are more than fine

ForumBully · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I can see worrying about sustain, but does anyone honestly believe free unlimited stamina should have ever been part of the class. Because that's what it was.

Can’t believe we’re hearing complaints about an exploit being fixed.

It's a strange world, no doubt. [snip]

[edited for conspiracy theory/misinformation]

ForumBully · February 2023

Saying that unintended mechanics are in the game for a very long time isn't a conspiracy theory.

Alchimiste1 · February 2023

I don't think it makes much of a difference in pve. Whip doesn't proc helping hands. Only the initial tic of eruption does. Its like 1k stam in 18 seconds or something close.

BlakMarket · February 2023

Has anyone even tested the changes on the PTS yet, to see if it is a problem sustain wise for whip?

West93 · February 2023

Good riddance

Billium813 · February 2023

Ya, I'm not sure I see the issue here with sustaining Whip in PvE. Whip doesn't proc Helping Hands, so the only way it would matter is if you were weaving Ash Cloud? That just seems like a bad DPS build.

This change did 2 things:

Buff PvP DKs that weren't using Ash Cloud (more Stamina back now from Petrify... yeah...)
Nuke bad DK tanks that spammed Ash Cloud to hold perpetual block

My one issue is that I really don't think they needed to boost the Stamina regain. It isn't much, so it's like "why even"? It feels like someone on the dev team is a DK main and everything has to end up as either buff or neutral. They don't get nerfs.

Soarora · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I didn’t even think about Helping Hands on DPS… you make a good observation. Hopefully it’s not as much of an issue in reality as it is in theory.

Every 2 seconds is perfectly fine. As mentioned prior, sustaining from ash cloud, especially with free cost was an exploit.

They should honestly increase the cost to match 200% of the original value, and without the ash cloud interaction, it should be okay. Makes it easier to manage also.

I believe it’s only every 2 seconds for one skill point, every 1 second for two. Regardless, I didn’t realize the passive only procs on the first tick. Crisis averted I suppose.

gariondavey · February 2023

Stx wrote: »

[snip]

Careful XD don't get too close to the conspiracy

I have no issue sustaining whip. Shrug

[edited to remove quote]

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Can’t believe we’re hearing complaints about an exploit being fixed.

Look, there is a difference on "fixing exploit" and "making passive not functional" for PvE DPS. PVE specs only use Eruption from that entire skill line (dmg morph of Ash Cloud) and instead making it not work with reduction glyphs or having a CD, it decided to just not work with that skill. DPS do not need healing rock, 6k shield, major brutality or a stun just to have bit more stamina where mag sustain is already low. In this form it will be only useable for tanks that will be able to juggle Balance and Igneous Shield to get stamina to block.

DK passives need complete rework at this point, it is only class that require specific spec just to fully utilize Earthen Heart passives, or at least make them equally working in PvE. PvPers and Tanks fully enjoy the ult gen and Helping Hands, while pve stam specs can't trigger HH (cost too much mag needed for whip, stonefist doesnt trigger it) and mag specs cannot have full ult gain portion due to Eruption lasting for 18s.

Dragonknights are given tons of damage, tons of mitigation, and tons of healing… all at the cost of sustain.

If you’re having difficulty with sustain and would prefer gameplay more sustain-free, you can hop on a Templar and struggle with damage; or a Sorcerer and struggle with healing, or a Nightblade and struggle with mitigation…

Classes are supposed to have drawbacks, as is the entire point of playing them.

When Combustion was nerfed for High Isle, Gina explained that Dragonknights were not intended to have sustain, that it wasn’t the direction of the class. Fact is, they’ve been left too powerful, and the change that’s occurring doesn’t exactly change that aspect, only fixes an unlimited stamina loop.

What_In_Tarnation · February 2023

I'm thinking ash could cost magicka every second, the new helping hand have to cost more than 1120 magicka to restore 1120 stamina.
So that being said, maybe they can make ash cloud restore stamina after the ability cost more than 1120 magicka.

For example, if ash cloud cost 270 magicka/per second, then 1120/270=4.148. So once you cast ash clould and it went on 4.148 second without another cast, then it could restore 1120 stamina(and only restore once per cast).

That would make the infinite stamina in PvP an no issue at all and in PvE you can still restore a lilttle bit of stamina back.

Idk, just my 2 cents.

And tbh I'm late to the party, I still doubt there's really infinite stamina issue in PvP, every experience players would know that once u cast 1 ability, you're using ur 1 gcd. cast old ash cloud would return 900ish stam sounds great on paper, but u're not doing any pressure on enemies.. So... I'm just saying.. maybe your'e just bad at pvp. Idk.

The_Titan_Tim · February 2023

robpr · February 2023

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

You are so laser-focused on "DK must struggle with sustain" is so tiresome now. Read my statement again. This change makes another passive non-functional in PvE for both dps specs. Only DK passives are like this. I don't agree with HH being so gamebreaking but I'm not negating DK having too good of sustain either. I just want a class passive that actually work.
And its not that it essential for DK in PvE to sustain stamina skills, but it helps a little every time boss relocates.

Old value with 2-3s CD would be fine for both worlds. Not entire game revolves around duels.

And no, because DK is top good for RG or DSR doesn't mean they deserve a broken class passive, its mostly because Talons. Give other classes a similar AoE skill or simply nerf/change Talons.