Templar ideas

Billium813 · February 2023

This ain't no thread for how to be a grayt Templar. So if you're reeding this, stop. It's just me own ideas cawse i'm getting old and cranky and don't rember stuff. These be me own ideas for makin Templar better.

Dawn's Wrath
- Solar Flare
  - Dark Flare - Conjure a ball of solar energy to heave at an enemy, dealing 2483 Magic Damage. Afflicts the target and enemies within 8 meters with Major & Minor Defile. Also grants you Minor Berserk for 5 seconds.
    Current Dark Flare - Conjure a ball of solar energy to heave at an enemy, dealing 2483 Magic Damage. Afflicts the target and enemies within 8 meters with Major Defile, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 16% for 4 seconds. Also grants you Empower for 5 seconds, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%.
    
    NOTES:
    This skill is more oriented for PvP, where the enemy healing, and the subsequent necessity for counter play, is more relevant. Therefore, I added Major AND Minor Defile to help it hate on Healing even more.
    Also, with Empower only being applicable to non-Players, this buff was replaced with Minor Berserk, which is generally achieved in PvE through Combat Prayer and passive slotted PvE skills like Camo Hunter. That should allow this buff to be a bit redundant in PvE, but more available for PvP.
  - Solar Barrage - Conjure solar energy to blast enemies around you, dealing 435 Magic Damage every 2 seconds for 20 seconds, increasing by 12% per tick. While this ability is active you gain Empower, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%.
    Current Solar Barrage - Conjure solar energy to blast enemies around you, dealing 435 Magic Damage every 2 seconds for 20 seconds. While this ability is active you gain Empower, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%.
    
    NOTES:
    This skill is more applicable to PvE, where the current damage is just not that good. To buff the damage, it now scales up in damage every 2 seconds. This rewards rotations that can properly allow the duration to reach max and hampers players that re-apply early; adding a good skill component to this skill for more proficient players while also upping the damage.
- Backlash
  - Power of the Light - Summon an expanding beam of pure sunlight to doom an enemy, dealing 1161 Physical Damage immediately, marking them for 6 seconds, and applying Minor Vulnerability for the duration. At the end of the duration, the sunlight bursts, dealing 1285 Physical Damage to the enemy, which increases based on the amount of damage you dealt to them over the duration, up to 200%. You can have only one Power of the Light active at a time.
    Current Power of the Light - Summon an expanding beam of pure sunlight to doom an enemy, dealing 1161 Physical Damage immediately, marking them for 6 seconds, and applying Minor Breach for 10 seconds, reducing their Armor by 2974. After the duration ends, the sunlight bursts, dealing 1285 Physical Damage to the enemy, which increases based on the amount of damage you dealt to them over the duration, up to 200%. You can have only one Power of the Light active at a time.
    
    NOTES:
    With the availability of Minor Breach from other sources, Minor Breach on PotL was totally redundant in most cases. That only placed more focus on the lack of damage the skill does after recent changes. Plus, you're dooming the opponent with a beam of sunlight! They cannot escape that beam, which is the essence of "vulnerable".
    
    Also, synchronize the debuff with the ability duration. I find it too confusing to track when the Skill Bar timer and the visual beam aren't in sync with the debuff they apply. The extra debuff duration ends up being pointless since the player feels compelled to replace the beam once it expires anyway.
- Eclipse - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds. Limited to one. Whenever the enemy deals direct damage, the sphere lashes back at the attacker reducing their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and dealing 898 Magic Damage to all enemies within 3 meters.
  Current Eclipse - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, that harms them with growing intensity anytime they use a Direct Damage attack. Limited to one. Their first attack reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds, their second attack immobilizes them for 3 seconds, and their third attack stuns them for 3 seconds. The effects can activate once every 1 second.
  
  NOTES:
  The base ability needs to be applicable to new players, where the direct damage is more applicable over the later morphs that attack the enemies healing done.
  
  Also, given how expensive this skill is to cast, the limit of one / single target... this skill is much more applicable to PvP. Therefore, added damage to all enemies in the area to make this skill a bit more applicable in PvE scenarios. Place this on a trash NPC mage, or even the boss, and watch them destroy their friends!
  - Unstable Core - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds. Limited to one. Whenever the enemy deals direct damage, the sphere lashes back at the attacker reducing their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and dealing 898 Magic Damage to all enemies within 3 meters.
    Whenever the enemy receives a direct heal, they are applied with Major Defile for 4 seconds. If the enemy receives Healing more than 100% their max Health, the sphere explodes stunning all enemies within 3 meters for 3 seconds.
    Current Unstable Core - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, that harms them with growing intensity anytime they deal direct damage. Limited to one. Their first attack reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and deals 449 Magic Damage, their second attack immobilizes them for 3 seconds and deals 898 Magic Damage, and their third attack stuns them for 3 seconds and deals 1799 Magic Damage. The effects can activate once every 1 second.
    
    NOTES:
    Added a new ability to attack the targets healing capabilities and punish excessive healing.
Aedric Spear
- Radial Sweep
  - Empowering Sweep - Swing your Aedric spear around with holy vengeance, dealing 2399 Physical Damage to all nearby enemies. You begin to pulse with light, gaining Minor Courage and Minor Resolve, and dealing 1161 Physical Damage around you every 2 seconds, for 4 seconds. This duration is extended by 2 seconds for each enemy hit; with a maximum of 6 enemies.
    Current Empowering Sweep - Swing your Aedric spear around with holy vengeance, dealing 2399 Physical Damage to all nearby enemies and an additional 1161 Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 6 seconds. The duration is extended by 2 seconds for each enemy hit. Gain Empower for the duration, increasing the damage of your Heavy Attacks against monsters by 80%
    
    NOTES:
    For Empowering Sweep, I think it all comes down to the use cases and differentiating it from the other morph, Crescent Sweep. Empowering Sweep benefits from hitting multiple enemies, which happens mostly in PvE and sometimes against PvP zergs. Both scenarios however require the Templar to dive into the pit and take the risk! For that reason, I'd like to see Empowering Sweep give a minor protection buff and a minor damage buff to reward the risk.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

solar barrage is actually currently used by templars for a heavy attack build that doesnt utilize oakensoul, while the dmg on it is not the best, it still provides a 22 sec empower buff

im not sure minor vulnerability would be any better on power of the light, as that is also a very common minor debuff

i think the eclipse change could be OK, but right now its still basically useless for pve, mainly because the targets attack too slow to make it useful, and i havent used the skill a lot but i thought boss enemies were totally immune to it regardless

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

solar barrage is actually currently used by templars for a heavy attack build that doesnt utilize oakensoul, while the dmg on it is not the best, it still provides a 22 sec empower buff

Fair, I didn't remove Empower from Solar Barrage given it's more of a PvE associated skill and with a long duration of 22 seconds, HA makes sense while the DOT is ticking away. I just think the damage should be a bit more and I like the damage scaling over duration improvement to add some proficiency to the skill.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

im not sure minor vulnerability would be any better on power of the light, as that is also a very common minor debuff

NB, Warden, and Necro have access to Minor Vulnerability. Plus, some Trials sets. Idk if I'd call it "very common" and Templar doesn't have access to it almost at all (just Scavenging Demise 5 piece set). Maybe that's by design... ZOS would only know that.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think the eclipse change could be OK, but right now its still basically useless for pve, mainly because the targets attack too slow to make it useful, and i havent used the skill a lot but i thought boss enemies were totally immune to it regardless

Ya, it is basically useless in PvE, even at the base skill when new players would be wanting to use it in PvE!! For PvE, I just think of all those trash mobs dealing direct damage with LAs and HAs. I dialed in the range to 3 meters, but it could be reduced down more to only impact enemies standing right on top of the sphere.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

for eclipse, what i would suggest is no change to the base skill, except to maybe give it some use in pve

the unstable core one, i like the idea of the aoe bursts, but feel that 3 meters might be too small, and should be closer to 5-6 meters, which it would still be much smaller and weaker than inevitable detonation from the alliance war line

i think the only time i briefly used this skill was way back in like 2015, when it actually reflected projectiles back on targets (the guards in cyrodiil use the "original" version of eclipse/unstable core for example), after the changes to the skill it felt garbage so i havent really used it since then cause it felt way too expensive for what it did

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

for eclipse, what i would suggest is no change to the base skill, except to maybe give it some use in pve

Oh, I thought that was what I did. The current base skill does no damage what-so-ever and the status effects are pointless in PvE for a single target, limited to 1, expensive to cast skill. So I added the minor AOE damage to make it more applicable to PvE.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the unstable core one, i like the idea of the aoe bursts, but feel that 3 meters might be too small, and should be closer to 5-6 meters, which it would still be much smaller and weaker than inevitable detonation from the alliance war line

Ya, I wasn't quite sure how big to make the AOE for both the damage and the burst stun. I wanted to keep them in sync and settled on 3 meters based on Rune Focus size being 3 meters and I wanted it to impact players standing really close to the sphere. I didn't want the scenario where 2-3 Templars cast these into a PvP zerg and basically nuke everyone with a safe range DOT! Circle of Protection if 5 meters and that seemed too big imo.

Inevitable Detonation does have a larger radius! But, that's kinda all it does. The new Unstable Core I am suggesting has a lot going on still. That being said, I could see upping it to 5 meters maybe with testing. I was playing it safe so as not to create something too OP

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

true, the base skill probably should have dmg as one of the ticks, maybe the first one instead of the slow, or the 2nd one with immobilize

i dont think giving it aoe dmg would be good though, that is overloaded for the base skill

while on the other hand i think putting an aoe stun on unstable core might be overloading that skill

in my mind, unstable would mean that it would do aoe, while the base skill would only affect the target, but at the same time i think 3 meters feels too small, so 4-5 meter aoe might be better and would lend the idea to the unstable element of that morph

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont think giving it aoe dmg would be good though, that is overloaded for the base skill

hmm, I think I disagree. The whole Dawn's Wrath skill line lacks in AOE damage (it's just Solar Barrage and the Ult). I think the AOE damage is pretty minor, but that can be changed in testing.

It's also a conditional AOE damage. It only procs on direct damage and ff the enemy does nothing, it does nothing. In PvE, that won't stop NPCs who attack really slow to begin with! In PvP, it may just make a player stop attacking or switch to other damage times. At the very least it would discourage range attacks.

Also, if you are going to place a big, obvious, black sphere on a player, I like the idea that other players and enemies don't want to stand near that thing! Having the base skill do something in AOE, that is also relevant in PvE, is necessary.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

while on the other hand i think putting an aoe stun on unstable core might be overloading that skill

in my mind, unstable would mean that it would do aoe, while the base skill would only affect the target, but at the same time i think 3 meters feels too small, so 4-5 meter aoe might be better and would lend the idea to the unstable element of that morph

Granted, Unstable Core is wordy. But I think it's easier to understand than the current one!

Also, it is a conditional AOE stun on Unstable Core; they have to receive enough healing to cause it to burst. I can see upping the burst stun to 6 meters, but keeping the AOE damage to 3 meters.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

the guards version of eclipse (i think its actually unstable core) causes me much more detriment as to using ranged attacks, because it still reflects the attack back on you (it sucks to accidentally hit myself with poison injection or lethal arrow if they cast the skill at the wrong time lol)

thats the old version of unstable core, and it was really potent reflecting ALL ranged direct attacks for 6 sec which is why they neutered it into the version we see today

i think if that functionality was brought back, but on the "stacking" mechanic like it has now, that wouldnt overly punish ranged people, like every 3rd ranged attack was reflected back on the caster, that means it would happen at most 2 times per cast (6 sec duration)

i think for unstable though, because its unstable it makes more sense for it to trigger aoe dmg instead of only hitting the targets self

i dont like the idea of the stun, templar already have an unblockable range stun with the javelin, they dont need a mass aoe one too, especially thats not at all controlled, so its just going to give everyone CC immunity at the wrong time potentially

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

it was really potent reflecting ALL ranged direct attacks for 6 sec which is why they neutered it into the version we see today

i think if that functionality was brought back, but on the "stacking" mechanic like it has now, that wouldnt overly punish ranged people, like every 3rd ranged attack was reflected back on the caster, that means it would happen at most 2 times per cast (6 sec duration)

One if the worst parts of the current version of Unstable Core is how it does different things on each attack; it's super convoluted. Keep in mind that this effect is being PLACE ON SOMEONE; which is very different compared to something YOU PLACE. For that reason, the effect really should do the same THING every time, but just progressively worse. Allowing the target to understand something bad is going on and they need to stop what they are doing. Having it be something different on each attack is just confusing.

How about this?

Eclipse - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds. Limited to one.

Whenever the enemy deals direct damage, the sphere lashes back at the attacker reducing their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and deals 898 Magic Damage to them.
Current Eclipse - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, that harms them with growing intensity anytime they use a Direct Damage attack. Limited to one. Their first attack reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds, their second attack immobilizes them for 3 seconds, and their third attack stuns them for 3 seconds. The effects can activate once every 1 second.

NOTES:
The base ability needs to be applicable to new players, where the direct damage is more applicable over the later morphs that attack the enemies healing done.

Also, given how expensive this skill is to cast, the limit of one / single target... this skill is much more applicable to PvP. Therefore, added damage to the target to make this skill a bit more applicable in PvE scenarios.
- Unstable Core - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds. Limited to one.
  
  Whenever the enemy deals direct damage, the sphere lashes back at the attacker reducing their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and deals 898 Magic Damage to them.
  
  Whenever the enemy receives a direct heal, they are applied with Major Defile for 4 seconds and take 898 Magic Damage. If the enemy receives healing more than 100% their max Health, the sphere explodes applying Minor Defile to all enemies within 8 meters.
  Current Unstable Core - Envelop an enemy in a lightless sphere for 4 seconds, that harms them with growing intensity anytime they deal direct damage. Limited to one. Their first attack reduces their movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds and deals 449 Magic Damage, their second attack immobilizes them for 3 seconds and deals 898 Magic Damage, and their third attack stuns them for 3 seconds and deals 1799 Magic Damage. The effects can activate once every 1 second.
  
  NOTES:
  Added a new ability to attack the targets healing capabilities and punish excessive healing.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

i think that sounds pretty balanced, though the explode on the unstable core, im assuming based on your suggestion that its doing no dmg and just applying the minor defile, so im not sure how much of an impact that will have, but it does seem like its trying to do its goal if somewhat anti-healing

edit: im also not sure if defile is the right debuff either as that is redundant with solar flare

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i think that sounds pretty balanced, though the explode on the unstable core, im assuming based on your suggestion that its doing no dmg and just applying the minor defile, so im not sure how much of an impact that will have, but it does seem like its trying to do its goal if somewhat anti-healing

edit: im also not sure if defile is the right debuff either as that is redundant with solar flare

I would like to see Templar having more Defile and anti-healing. I personally think it should be baked into the class in some way and would go a long way to helping Templar in PvP. Yes, Templar damage is a bit low atm, but I think there are other ways to buff the counter play. I think healing is overbuffed atm in PvP and an anti-healer could be a good answer. Templar has good sustain, so hitting enemies healing could be a good counterplay to wear them down with our reduced damage.

Of course, anti-healing is pretty bad in PvE...

> not sure if defile is the right debuff either as that is redundant with solar flare[

Ya, I thought about that too. I like the idea of the sphere bursting and showering everyone around them in defiling darkness xD. So thematically it feels good. But maybe it could do something else. It depends on how much you expect players to run both, or pick one or the other. Most of the time you just run 1 Dawn's Wrath ability for the passive proc.

Necrotech_Master · February 2023

if its anti healing, thats a different problem lol

one i dont think major/minor defile are strong enough to resolve anymore, maybe back during cp1.0 when we had a specific cp node that buffed defiles, and pre major/minor buff/debuff nerfs lol

Billium813 · February 2023

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if its anti healing, thats a different problem lol

one i dont think major/minor defile are strong enough to resolve anymore, maybe back during cp1.0 when we had a specific cp node that buffed defiles, and pre major/minor buff/debuff nerfs lol

Oh yeah, you are 100% correct there! The nerfed it into the floor when it used to be like 40% reduction to healing with the CP befoul passive. Major/Minor Defile should be upped to 24%/12% at least; heals are just too cheap and rampant to have any noticeable effect. But one issue at a time, huh? Let's get Templar slinging some Defile first