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The Skill Curve is still completely Imbalanced.
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Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pixiepumpkin wrote: »ZOS needs to make this game easier to understand how to build, because its literal magic to new players.
... or just use Google. My point is flippant, but it stands.
PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!5 -
MarioMario✭✭✭I totally disagree the OP.
I'm a former hardcore PvP player since launch. For many reason, I finally gave up and switched to full PvE in September.
It took less than a month to reach 110/120k dps with 4 different classes (sorc, dk, plar, necro) with NOT perfected sets, since I've no time to farm veteran trials. I've also closed many contents as Warden Tank (HM dlc, VBPR etc).
I'm not a pro, I'm 43, got a full time job and 3 kids.
Learn the game mechanics, farm meta sets, learn rotation. That's it.
PS: I've a one bar heavy attack sorc and it overperforms regular builds in many situations, since you don't need time to build up your dmg, you have a stable dmg outcome since first second. BIS for Arenas and 4 man dungeons. It lacks damage in trial boss fights only.
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Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭We can keep discussing this all we want, but the fact remains that when the game was made easier/more accessible with OneTamriel, it attracted more players. So the same should happen with all parts of the game, and make them easier to access. Be it endgame PvE or PvP. And right now the skillgap is hindering players from accessing and enjoying content, so this gap needs to change or disappear.
The more players who can do content, the more players who will enjoy that content, and the more players will be attracted to that content. As OneTamriel has proven.1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭The more players who can do content, the more players who will enjoy that content, and the more players will be attracted to that content. As OneTamriel has proven.
Depends on the content. About 10-15% of WoW players are estimated to do raids. For ESO trials the estimate is below 10%. Not everyone wants to do trials. Not everyone wants to do dungeons. Which suprises me, given a 12-man model is imo better than the 20/25-man model WoW runs.
I'd be interested for any solid stats on why people play, or what content they prefer, because without them it's all subjective. I will say this though, 80%+ of zone messages I see LFM have requirements - be it dps levels or achievments: If people are not willing to teach, and give people the opportunity to learn, they are going to end up spamming zone chat for an hour+ (which is what they do).
PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!2 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The game doesn't set that limit.
It's certain groups. So find, or start a group with less.
No matter how much you dumb the combat down, better players will still hit higher numbers and apply a higher threshold.
Which is their right to do so. They just want to play with people at their level and finish things quickly and efficiently and reach their goals. That means they'll turn some people down.6 -
deleted221205-002626✭✭✭✭✭
It is my personal belief that there should be skill and practice required to get to 100k DPS (I can't do it btw) so for those of you who are against that I will say I don't agree. But I agree that this number shouldn't be necessary to do all but the hardest content in game, and that gear to get better should not be locked behind an encounter or setting which requires those types of numbers.
i admit, i'm a pvp player and don't know pve very well, but what content in normal mode requires 100k dps?
The changes in u35 & u36 were not because of normal mode dungeons and trials. That is not the problem area.
The problem is that the very top end we’re doing a tremendous amount more damage than say the average player. And increasingly the vet hard modes were being made with those top end players in mind. They wanted, I believe, (and we can argue if they were successful or not, I feel unsuccessful) to curb the top end but leaving the rest of the player base alone.
I think they would then redo the hard modes based on this new lower top end, thus increasing the amount of people capable of doing them. While still making the vet end game interest to those top end players.
I believe they have done an ok job so far bringing the top down.. at the bottom i literally yesterday xmuted 2 sets using oakensoul and slimecraw mask.. pure hvy attack build and am parsing 58k as templar with just solar barage for minor sorcery and lighting ground sht for off balance and just heavy attacking.. single target all day long 58k! but thats per target!! can easily hit 200k+ on groups!
I should add this is with blue gear! and some dps slottables like magelight and camo hunter and dawnbreaker with an aedric spear slotted for 10% crit dmg etc. if you equip the right gear and slot the right things anything is OP imo!Edited by deleted221205-002626 on December 5, 2022 10:06AM0 -
Jeejee✭✭✭If there was no skill gap and everyone was dumbed down to the same skill level, that would be insanely insulting to the more skilled players. All effort and hours of practice completely wasted. And there would be zero feel of achieving anything after completing content when you know everyones 90 year old grandmother could have done it with no effort.4 -
bantamguar✭✭✭We can keep discussing this all we want, but the fact remains that when the game was made easier/more accessible with OneTamriel, it attracted more players. So the same should happen with all parts of the game, and make them easier to access. Be it endgame PvE or PvP. And right now the skillgap is hindering players from accessing and enjoying content, so this gap needs to change or disappear.
The more players who can do content, the more players who will enjoy that content, and the more players will be attracted to that content. As OneTamriel has proven.
Then stick with normal mode. It exists for this reason.
With heavy attack builds doing 80k+, a lot of content is more accessible now.
If players still cannot compete then perhaps they are the problem.
Unless of course you're proposing to remove harder mechanics. In which case I repeat, stick with normal mode.
PvP does not even work, no need to worry about skillgap
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SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Perhaps it would help to have an intermediate level on trials, or a hard mode for normal trial bosses, just so people can get a taste of the big difference there is between normal & vet content?
(I know this thread is about dps, but this could help people appreciate what they need to be able to do without putting them off completely. Encouragement not punishment.)
And I just love those blithely posting here about how ‘easy’ it is to get stupid high numbers - because obviously IT ISN’T otherwise you would have far more people doing vet trials etc & less concern about the massive gaps between normal & top tier dps.
And whilst I appreciate that some love to dummy hump & theory craft, others just want to play a game for which they have paid. I do not support ‘participation ribbons’ or whatever for all, but do think there needs to be more help up the massive step between normal & vet trial content.
ESO has a combat system that is fun & dynamic but the behind the scenes maths is appalling. And relies far too heavily on outside websites etc for clarification. For someone new to MMOs the lack of description on skills & how that relates to passives & armour buffs is ridiculous. Where does it describe the difference between crit chance, crit strike & crit damage? Channelled skills verses direct damage verses single target damage?
No wonder people give up & just go questing.3 -
bantamguar✭✭✭SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »
"78k DPS just from holding down Left Click". If this is still difficult, then I don't know what to say..
But I will agree that zos does an awful job at teaching players anything. I support an "intermediate" level as you said.1 -
Harry_Toes✭✭✭I do not participate in anything that requires Discord to communicate. I like my single player experience in an MMO. So trials and vet dungeon content are out and I'm ok with that.
Hyper speed button mashing is not my idea of relaxation.
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SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭bantamguar wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »
"78k DPS just from holding down Left Click". If this is still difficult, then I don't know what to say..
But I will agree that zos does an awful job at teaching players anything. I support an "intermediate" level as you said.
On console. 😛
Also, this would be pretty useless in actual content, surely?!Edited by SerafinaWaterstar on December 5, 2022 12:31PM0 -
OrkWizard✭✭✭[snip] you can get within 10-20% of the very best players dps wise with not too much effort. The last 10-20% might take a while but it barely even matters as you do more than enough damage to get in to most groups, and clear anything at that point.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 5, 2022 5:07PM1 -
Malkiv✭✭✭✭✭SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »bantamguar wrote: »SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »
"78k DPS just from holding down Left Click". If this is still difficult, then I don't know what to say..
But I will agree that zos does an awful job at teaching players anything. I support an "intermediate" level as you said.
On console. 😛
Also, this would be pretty useless in actual content, surely?!
HA builds are good (not great, not amazing, not spectacular - just "good") in content, because there is no ramp-up, set minigames, nor ability lockout. Your max damage starts with your first heavy attack, and the the damage curve is so beautiful with perfectly sequenced peaks and valleys - it's very satisfying. The only thing HA builds cannot do, is attack while blocking; you will obviously need to use a skill if you're blocking, because you will not be able to maintain damage with LA or HA during a block.PC-NA | PvP (Gray Host & BGs) | PvE (vTrials & vDGs)1 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ESO disproportionally rewards mechanical skill.
It's fine for more skilled players to be rewarded with more damage. But only to a point.
It's fine for less skilled players to be "punished" with less damage. But only to a point.
.
Regarding your first line - not in the "real" group content world. Modern trials require both mechanical skill in the form of knowing which buttons to press in which order for your rotation and at which speed since we have a 1second GC - so don't activate the skills too slowly nor too quickly and that is 100% achievable by practice - and mental skill/knowledge for mechanics. You can parse 120K in Rockgrove, Cloudrest, Sunspire, and Dreadsail Reef but it won't amount to anything if you're constantly on the floor needing to be rez'd because you're constantly dying to mechanics that you should know after a few runs and from some studying. High DPS is not an easy get out of jail free card in every situation. Recently a group I run with did a PUG of vCR+1 where all the DPS had 90K+ parses and the group didn't clear because they kept dying from mechanics.
I don't have high DPS as a healer main because I don't practice it but absolutely would if my guilds mandated that I swap to a DPS role, and I'm 100% fine with that because effort should result in a high return on investment. The feeling that I get from the self described casual crowd lamenting the DPS disparity is that they don't want to practice because they don't find it enjoyable. The truth is all but a very few people hate to practice and find it unenjoyable but we're willing to put in the time to achieve something that we do find enjoyable whether that's progging a trial at harder levels for months on end and finally getting the clear, practicing rotations, or farming gear mandated by our raid lead and improving gear to improve our role performance just like I hated practicing every day when I played sports but playing against a rival team on a Friday or Saturday made that time and effort after school every day worth it.
There will sadly always be players that despite their best efforts and practice can't get the same results as others do. That being said the game should not be neutered for the small amount of players who do practice and can't get the same results as the top performers. The real villains here are not the guys hitting the high DPS numbers via sweat and theory crafting, it's the Zenimax encounter team who designs content around the top 1%'s performance instead of the upper spectrum of performance of normal end game player.
*edited for spelling*Edited by Ragnarok0130 on December 5, 2022 2:00PM5 -
INM✭✭✭✭But how do you really close the gap without making the game push buttons by itself or without dumbing rotation into a single button mash? How do you make hardest trials more accessible without nerfing them into the ground? Without making it entertainment for tourists (we have normal mode for this).
Because you know, to participate in raiding you should have a certain mindset. Not only you, but 11 people you group with. This group of people dedicates a certain amount of time, usually 6-8 hours per week on certain days at a certain time of day to play the game together. And this group does this in the span of weeks and months to achieve a common goal. Often this group is bashing its head against a wall for many hours straight to progress further, sometimes to completely disband without achieving its goal. Overall raiding is a long process of self-improvement and group-improvement. It's just not for people who want to chill with cool dudes, it's never ending work, it's a helluva time sink.
Question, how in this picture of the world fit players who don't want to spend time on improving themselves, who give up on the first sign of failure, who complain on Reddit about gatekeeping instead of asking how to be better. Don't get me wrong, it's ok to give up, it's ok to complain, it's ok to play chilly, but it's not a mentality endgame player should have.
From personal experience, I honestly tried to host a teaching run with no requirements for any players who wanted to "participate" in the endgame. It was a drag. Obviously damage was low, obviously we bumped on every step, because I had to explain mechanics to everyone. We didn't complete a trial, but we managed to make some minisquiline progress. The next time only a few players from the last time showed up. I found some replacement and everything repeated a few times. People weren't ready to work, to put time and effort into it, they were here to get a free achievement. They were endgame tourists. Out of a couple dozen people only one guy stood out, he was the only one who really prepared for the raid. I recommended him to a decent group and he managed to achieve really good results later one.
I understood that requirements exist not only to ensure easier runs, but to make sure that players are capable of putting time and effort into something. If you don't like dps requirements, then seek for another group or start your own. No one is obliged to take you only because you're cool dude, it's not fair for other players who put time and effort into this. And also it's not like an endgame only for no-lifers, most of the people i raided with have jobs and family.
Ask yourself if you're really ready to sink hundreds and thousands of hours, if you like the process or you want to have a reward.
Just my 5 cents, I need to speak up.5 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KilianDermoth wrote: »I doubt that you understood what I wrote, especially because I explicitly mentioned your case and that this single exception doesnt make it true that weaving has a big impact in general. It has only a big impact if you explicitly choose so, but then you shouldnt complain about it, because you are makeing your own life miserable by doing so... In most cases you even dont gain extra damage or absolutely neglectible extra damage...
Btw. no, psijic skill passives dont proc additional damage on weaving...
You probablly meant spell orb? Spell orb has nothing to do with weaving. Also I already mentioned it => asking myself again if you even read or understood what I wrote...
But your advice against Bahsei was absolute bad, even if people arent able to do the magicka minigame properly, bahsei is still one of the strongest sets (especially back then before the nerf), even if your magicka remains relatively high it beats almost any other set. Even False God (one of the weakest trial sets which has about the power of mother sorrow) still beats most sets and the lowest power of Bahsei (at 100%) is similar to False Gods / Mother Sorrows power while it just gets stronger, at max stronger than any other set in the game (trial or non trial).
And because it gradeuatlly scales with the missing Magicka it is still powerful at 50% or even 70% and worth a recommendation even for beginners, because there arent many other sets that would yield the same power and most of them are situational or as difficult as manageing low Magicka.
Play one of the latest builds on a DK with a Charged weapon and Bahsei will do nothing for you at all with its 5 piece bonus.
LOL I came back to the game a few weeks ago and was top parsing in groups with a lot of talented players on my magdk using Bahsei Kinras. With nirn/charged daggers. When running Bahsei you take care to manage your resources. As long as you do, it works fine. I sat comfortably at about 30% mag and just used talons as a semi spammable whenever my mag crept too high.0 -
Kisakee✭✭✭✭✭
✭KilianDermoth wrote: »1. It was "when everyone was running Bahsei" => past, also not recent = not latest DK build.
2. Bahsei still is a huge buff and still is one of the strongest (even if not always the strongest) set, even for latest DK builds with charged weapons, because charged weapons arent the only source. Btw. Bahsei didnt affect pets in the past (and they are probablly a bigger source of damage on a Sorc and Necro than charged weapons on a DK) but still Bahsei was the strongest set even for Sorcs and Necros.
It's no buff if you're unable to barely drop below max Magicka which is guaranteed when you have a propper rotation and perform it well. A current DK built has so much Magicka regeneration / regain on it that Bahsei is an absolute waste to use there.I'm but a sarcastic beef jerky. Irony and cynicism are my parents. You've been warned.1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭KilianDermoth wrote: »1. It was "when everyone was running Bahsei" => past, also not recent = not latest DK build.
2. Bahsei still is a huge buff and still is one of the strongest (even if not always the strongest) set, even for latest DK builds with charged weapons, because charged weapons arent the only source. Btw. Bahsei didnt affect pets in the past (and they are probablly a bigger source of damage on a Sorc and Necro than charged weapons on a DK) but still Bahsei was the strongest set even for Sorcs and Necros.
It's no buff if you're unable to barely drop below max Magicka which is guaranteed when you have a propper rotation and perform it well. A current DK built has so much Magicka regeneration / regain on it that Bahsei is an absolute waste to use there.
Sometimes my rotation involves using talons and/or FOO as a semi spammable. My mag is always exactly where I want it.
In fact, Bahsei Kinras is still bis in some fights, based on some private logs I've seen. People just go with sets that are easier to manage because they don't like managing their mag.1 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are a few things I haven't seen anyone bring up yet in this thread that are crucial for dmg: One of them is knowledge of what kind of damage to do in certain situations. If you're like me when I was learning how to dps, you have one solid single-target build that gets you decent numbers on the target dummy, you master your rotation, get enough light attacks in to feel competent, and you stick with that come heck or high water, because it works, right? What I've learned since I came to PC (with gear change addons) is your damage has to change to fit the scenario.
If you're in an add pack, you have to change your gear. Sets like Relequen are not strong in fights with a lot of mechanics that could cause you to lose your stacks. That's a lot of damage lost! Siroria is not strong in a mobile fight since, again, you lose stacks, which is what the whole set is predicated upon. You have to also look at your skills. Are you using single target skills in a fight with a lot of stuff to hit? Try using skills that offer more AoE (cleave) damage.
Make sure you have your skills placed in the right spots. In vAS, when you're turning to hit Protectors, are you making sure to leave your Blockade and other ground based AoEs under Olms, or are you recasting your entire rotation on the Protector? Are your tanks stacking the minis properly so you can get better cleave damage? Are your healers and tanks keeping good buff/debuff uptimes? Do you feel like you're getting enough heals that you can focus your rotation properly?
A lot of things go into being able to do damage, and it's not usually a single player's responsibility. If you're new, you're likely playing with other players who are new, so the whole team ecosystem is going to be "off" in terms of damage output.
In endgame, our uptimes are generally pretty high, heals are bountiful, everyone is already comfortable with mechanics (except in vDSR hm because heck that place) and dps have already figured out which sets/skills/placements/positioning is going to bring about the highest damage output. We make this happen as a cohesive team. Those numbers you're comparing yours too aren't realistic for you to hit until you have a team that can also do this.
Someone suggested earlier that players may want to start up some new teams and work your way up with them, and I 100% support that. It'll give you the chance to grow everyone's skill together and work on creating a holistic team build that will create a more successful environment for everyone there. Stick around after raid and hammer out the numbers using logs (or clips if you're on console). Figure out where you all have opportunities to grow and improve. Be kind and constructive to one another. You'll start to see your dmg numbers catch up in no time.Edited by p00tx on December 6, 2022 11:15PMPC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero1 -
hisoka✭JJMaxx1980 wrote: »The latest changes haven't done anything to reduce the top-weighted balance of the skill curve when it comes to damage. The biggest issue I have always had with this game is that the biggest difference between mediocre DPS and good DPS is tenth-of-a-second differences in your weaving ability.
"You just gotta make sure your refreshing your abilities as they are about to run out." Sure, ok. So you have to juggle ten different skill timers, light attacking in between them all, barswapping, drinking potions, hitting synergies... oh and you might wanna look at your screen once in a while to I don't know maybe see whats actually happening.
So you think, ok, maybe I won't hit my abilities exactly on time or maybe my light attack weaving is .05 seconds off, surely I'll still be close to the proper amount of DPS? Nope. Not even close. Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS.
You put all this effort into a class, spend millions of gold on materials, enchants and farming gear and you still can't get the '90k+ minimum' required to go do high-level content with your guild.
Now this is usually the bit where people will reply to this thread and tell me how easy it is to hit 90k DPS. Go ahead. I'm sure it is for you. I'm happy that it's working out for you. I know alot of people it doesn't work for. I'd say for every one person who humps the dummy for hundreds of hours and gets that 120k DPS, there's 20 other regular players who simply will not be able to do it.
This is a game and combat should be satisfying for normal, non-sweaty players. They make overland content pre-school level of easy, where you can kill anything with just heavy attacks and then they make the high-level out of reach for a majority of players. I've been playing this game for 8 years. It's just very frustrating that I can't create a character and be able to play at a high level.
How do you fix it? I don't know I just know that nothing has changed and their last 'big change' hasn't done anything to level the field.
the reasons you mentioned is the reason i love this game , cause you cant get carried by your sets you need to have a skill to actually be good see what you said ( Go ahead, get the exact same gear, same enchants, same champion points, same skills, same morphs, same food and spend time learning the build, get your light-attack weaving into your muscle memory. So now you're roughly 90% of the same skill and what do you get? You get 50% less DPS) shows me exactly what type of player you are a copy paste and think it will instantly will be better and i my guess you didn't even read the sets and how they work to improve your dmg
tldr, you need to put the same effort of that guy you are copy pasting from he didnt put that gear and suddenly got more dps he worked for it0 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If combat mechanics weren't changed so often, then maybe players would have a chance to learn the classes and become really good at utilizing their characters in difficult content.
But in ESO every 3 months or so, BOOM, at midnight your build and characters turns into a pumpkin. And we're like, "How do I drive this pumpkin?"Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There's content for everybody in this game. Players who are casual can enjoy the same content with lower difficulty, while players who are more sweaty can enjoy the same content with more difficulty. This is healthy for the game. What's not healthy is trying to reduce the ceiling so casual players can now access more difficult content without putting in the same amount of work as dedicated players.4 -
Ariordin✭✭✭✭I'm a usually casual, sometimes meta gamer, but with ESO I keep hitting this problem where to get peak DPS i need trial/arena gear, but to run trials guilds want me to have trial/arena gear... making it tedious to run enough trials to get trial gear. (generically i know some builds don't require this) The slog is extremely grindy.
I think it would go a long way if they diversified their end game content away from just trails so that there were other ways then 12 man group content to get end game worthy gear. That would lower the skill curve away from needing large group runs to get good.0 -
CrashTest✭✭✭✭✭
✭
No, trial guilds don't require you to have trial gear to run trials when you're just starting. No one cares what the dps wears if you're not the ZenKosh DK or the EC Cro which are usually only asked for when trying to optimize experienced vet runs.I'm a usually casual, sometimes meta gamer, but with ESO I keep hitting this problem where to get peak DPS i need trial/arena gear, but to run trials guilds want me to have trial/arena gear... making it tedious to run enough trials to get trial gear. (generically i know some builds don't require this) The slog is extremely grindy.
No one especially cares if it's just normal runs which you can easily do to gear up. Normals have no gear reqs and are puggable. It's the majority of Craglorn lfgs and lfms.
The current metas use gear from 4 man dungeons and arenas and you can use crafted, overland, or dungeon sets temporarily while you're farming normal trials for trial gear.I think it would go a long way if they diversified their end game content away from just trails so that there were other ways then 12 man group content to get end game worthy gear. That would lower the skill curve away from needing large group runs to get good.
*edit to add: you don't need the perfected version of gear to do beast mode dps. The difference between the perf and normal versions is small, and in some cases, there's no diff at all.Edited by CrashTest on December 6, 2022 8:47AM0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm a usually casual, sometimes meta gamer, but with ESO I keep hitting this problem where to get peak DPS i need trial/arena gear, but to run trials guilds want me to have trial/arena gear... making it tedious to run enough trials to get trial gear. (generically i know some builds don't require this) The slog is extremely grindy.
I think it would go a long way if they diversified their end game content away from just trails so that there were other ways then 12 man group content to get end game worthy gear. That would lower the skill curve away from needing large group runs to get good.
I have been raiding in this game for a long time. They only time I have ever had a raid leader require specific setups is for a tri-fecta prog. You dont prog tri-fectas without a bunch of clears of said trial under your belt.
A combo of Orders Wrath (crafted) and something like Pillar of Nirn (can be farmed on normal falkreath via groupfinder) is enough for a skilled player to pass any reasonable DPS check/guild requirement in this game.
Gear being gatekept is the second biggest scapegoat in ESO (behind weaving). There are so many combos that dont require you to step foot in a trial that are withing 2-3% of meta gear. We have more options now than we have ever had. Sure the guys parse phishing on youtube are min/maxed as much as possible, but too many players see that, realize they dont have that specific gear setup, and throw their hands in the air.
I wont say that the skill threshold in ESO isnt higher than a lot of games (it is and I personally like that), but dont blame gear or weaving for bad DPS. Neither are required to hit 100k.0
