They'll nerf jesus beam next too, just wait.

Can anyone on PTS confirm what the new scaling to the max damage is like? If it's 2:1 on live, is it like ~3:1 on PTS?

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Edit: Do you mean how much damage it takes? Like what the conversion is like?

I'm not sure, but I'm curious and will test when I can.

Yeah, basically how much damage it takes to reach the damage cap on the 2nd hit’s tooltip * 3 to determine the new conversion ratio

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Edit: Do you mean how much damage it takes? Like what the conversion is like?

I'm not sure, but I'm curious and will test when I can.

Yeah, basically how much damage it takes to reach the damage cap on the 2nd hit’s tooltip * 3 to determine the new conversion ratio

Tested on the 6m target dummy based on damage dealt, not tooltips.

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3346
Multiplier = 11%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 2816
Dmg Bonus = 332
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.79%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3104
Multiplier = 3%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 1657
Dmg Bonus = 90
Dmg Conversion Rate = 5.4%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3224
Multiplier = 6.9%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 3314
Dmg Bonus = 210
Dmg Conversion Rate = 6.3%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 4799
Multiplier = 59.2%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 21041
Dmg Bonus = 1785
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.787%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 6810
Multiplier = 125.9%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 46588
Dmg Bonus = 3796
Dmg Conversion Rate = 8.14%

Final without Bonus = 4084
Final with Bonus = 11838
Multiplier = 189.8%
Dmg Dealt = 90888
Dmg Bonus = 7754
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.72%

TLDR: Results varied, especially with only 1 or 2 attacks at the low end. Probably due to the math behind the scenes rounding to whole numbers. Seems to average around 8-12% of damage taken with more consistent damage tests. Results show 11.8% popping up more than once, out of the 6 tests, it came up 3 times. I feel like that counts for something and may indicate it's around 12%.

Example based on 14-25% nerf, new 12% conversion and 200% multiplier.

Someone with a 20k tooltip on live, may see that reduced to about 17k.
17k/3 = 5667 damage guaranteed. Remaining 11333 Damage obtained through the 200% multiplier.
11333/1.12 = 94.4k damage required to cap out the 200% multiplier.

That same person with 20k on live, would be required to deal 40k damage to cap it at the 50% rate.

So their statement stands true, pve won't really be effected because 94k damage across 6s is easy to do when we're capable of doing 120k dps now. For pvp... big difference.

Obviously, these are my tests and shouldn't be taken as fact, I could of not accounted for something thats giving me weird results, but my theory is it's now 12% instead of 50%. At minimum it's around 10%.

What the hell is this combat team doing

gariondavey wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Edit: Do you mean how much damage it takes? Like what the conversion is like?

I'm not sure, but I'm curious and will test when I can.

Yeah, basically how much damage it takes to reach the damage cap on the 2nd hit’s tooltip * 3 to determine the new conversion ratio

Tested on the 6m target dummy based on damage dealt, not tooltips.

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3346
Multiplier = 11%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 2816
Dmg Bonus = 332
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.79%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3104
Multiplier = 3%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 1657
Dmg Bonus = 90
Dmg Conversion Rate = 5.4%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 3224
Multiplier = 6.9%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 3314
Dmg Bonus = 210
Dmg Conversion Rate = 6.3%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 4799
Multiplier = 59.2%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 21041
Dmg Bonus = 1785
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.787%

Final without Bonus = 3014
Final with Bonus = 6810
Multiplier = 125.9%/200%
Dmg Dealt = 46588
Dmg Bonus = 3796
Dmg Conversion Rate = 8.14%

Final without Bonus = 4084
Final with Bonus = 11838
Multiplier = 189.8%
Dmg Dealt = 90888
Dmg Bonus = 7754
Dmg Conversion Rate = 11.72%

TLDR: Results varied, especially with only 1 or 2 attacks at the low end. Probably due to the math behind the scenes rounding to whole numbers. Seems to average around 8-12% of damage taken with more consistent damage tests. Results show 11.8% popping up more than once, out of the 6 tests, it came up 3 times. I feel like that counts for something and may indicate it's around 12%.

Example based on 14-25% nerf, new 12% conversion and 200% multiplier.

Someone with a 20k tooltip on live, may see that reduced to about 17k.
17k/3 = 5667 damage guaranteed. Remaining 11333 Damage obtained through the 200% multiplier.
11333/1.12 = 94.4k damage required to cap out the 200% multiplier.

That same person with 20k on live, would be required to deal 40k damage to cap it at the 50% rate.

So their statement stands true, pve won't really be effected because 94k damage across 6s is easy to do when we're capable of doing 120k dps now. For pvp... big difference.

Obviously, these are my tests and shouldn't be taken as fact, I could of not accounted for something thats giving me weird results, but my theory is it's now 12% instead of 50%. At minimum it's around 10%.

Great testing.
As for the reasoning behind this...wth?
I'd rather we just get a 6 second version of curse. Sheesh.

Begs the question why we need to guess to begin with.. how about just including the value in the tooltip, at minimum, the patch notes. It's the 10% nerf to boss health all over again from U35. I'm hoping they just goofed some numbers because their statements seemed to intend on keeping the status quo close to the same. I wouldn't think a double nerf is the same.

ZOS should also keep in mind that if it isn’t worth running this skill in PvE, stamina templar will lose the very last bit of group utility they still have. None of the other skills from this line are worth it, and Minor Sorcery is already not even desirable per se when Minor Brutality accomplishes the same thing from a class that has much more to offer to a group in general (just have everyone run weapon damage glyphs now that everything’s hybridized). Stamina templar already brings nothing for those who run weapon damage glyphs, or if there’s a templar healer or tank running a Dawn’s Wrath skill. We don’t do competitive damage - in the sense that it is a dps loss to run this class when most other classes do more damage with comparable parses - and we have next to no group utility. Who would want one in group when there are far better options for damage and utility? If I can hit 120 on a stamplar, I am still actively hurting my group for running it when I could be doing more damage and providing more to my group on any other class.

Refusing to fix Ritual, ignoring other overnerfs, and continuing to make the class underperform other classes in terms of raw damage while undermining group utility even further is resulting in a class that is distinctly unfun to play and noticeably unwanted in group content. There is a reason stamina templar is the second least-played class in the most recent trial.

When I say PvE, I mean PvE. To be honest, though, now that you mention it, many of the same things can be said about PvP.

Minor Sorcery is the only unique buff brought to any group by templar. My point above is that it is no longer irreplaceable because hybridization means a DK brings the same utility, just in a different way. Even if Minor Sorcery were still truly unique (in that Minor Brutality could not replace it), once a single templar on any role brings it, other templars immediately become redundant. Magicka templar hits harder than stamina templar, meaning they will be preferred in optimized groups to stamplar and will be more popular more broadly among those who want to maximize their damage on a particular class, whether solo or group-oriented, not just at the endgame levels for which we have actual data (see ESO Logs).

Speaking of PvE more widely, templars also make solid enough tanks and healers (although in these roles too in highly optimized content they do not compete with the group utility offered by other classes) - and, more importantly, they are especially friendly to players new to those roles. (Isobel being a templar sword-and-board by default with passives that lend themselves to tanking also helps suggest the idea of tankplar to players who have her or see her.) That means they’re not unlikely to show up in pugs, where they can easily make a stamina templar’s Minor Sorcery redundant. So if a group of any size or optimization has a tankplar, healplar, or magplar, stamina templar is redundant. We simply don’t have anything else to offer that another class will not do better, with the possible exception of clearing trash (if that can be said to be something sufficiently desirable in a game where non-elite mobs are labeled “trash” for a reason - being the best at taking it out hardly has enviable connotations). Having the single best class spammable for applying Plaguebreak (the generic Shrouded Daggers is arguably better) should not be a class’s claim to fame. Especially when other classes can run that set or Azureblight with similar results. (I have seen that myself on fights like the tavern and Bow Breaker in vDSR.) Being marginally better suited to being carried by a set is not my idea of class identity or utility.

Moreover, each of those three other specs - tankplar, healplar, magplar - is more likely to be more useful to the group than a stamplar, who suffers for being a class that is much better aligned in general with magicka and spell damage. Keep in mind that up until now (and until next patch goes live), running Spell Damage on a stamina templar has severely hindered Power of the Light, so those of us not lucky enough to have DKs for partners have had to choose between building to take advantage of our own class buff or giving up a stam class skill, of which there are very few at all and this is the only one indisputably worth slotting right now (Jabs is situational). That is a huge problem for class identity for stamina templar. Hybridizing the skill but nerfing it merely shifts rather than solves that problem, since it further reduces the power that comes from class stam skills. Stamplars need a lot more of that, not a lot less. A lot of the class power budget was shifted from the few class stam skills into mag skills (Blazing Spear, Radiant Oppression) with Update 35. The result is that playing stamplar right now is literally choosing to hinder ourselves and our groups - optimized or not - by not speccing into magicka, when doing so would allow us to cast more of the magicka class skills that have gained from the few buffs thrown our way. That is not an acceptable state of class identity.

As for Minor Breach, it is not only provided by the obvious choice of morph for the only melee taunt in game but also by literally any physical damage. Sure, it’s only a chance to proc on physical damage, but with so many people running some source of that (everyone being able to bash if nothing else), it is very likely that even a completely unoptimized pug - yes, even with a tank not running the very first skill in the most obvious tanking skill line - will see very high uptimes on it. That is by design. ZOS made that change so that groups of all levels and sizes and - most importantly - compositions would have access to it. They wanted every group to have it, which inextricably meant making it no longer exclusive to templar. I was actually very happy that so many more groups gained widespread access to Minor Breach - I think it was a great change for the game and one of the cases where they managed to raise the floor without raising the ceiling just as much - but it is undisputable that distributing that debuff so widely without giving templars something else detracted from templar class utility in groups of any size or optimization level. No one brings a stamplar for Minor Breach when they’re getting that from the tank, from bash, from basic attacks from all weapons - including werewolf claws - except staves, or from any of the more than 40 skills that do physical damage. It is not a surprise to me that UESP calls physical damage the most common type of damage in game. And now Minor Breach - formerly a reason to bring a stamina templar - is just as common. Why was the class utility that came with that buff never restored? It is especially important as hybridization continues that classes remain not only viable but wanted. When the magicka spec of a class so far outshines the stam one, when the stam dps spec is completely redundant if any other form of that class is present, when class stam skills are getting shafted in favor of class mag skills - that leaves that stam spec in a particularly bad place. I would say the same for any class, but stamplar is the one I happen to play.

Billium813 wrote: »

I mean, couldn't you say the same about DK and Minor Brutality though? More than one becomes redundant. Having DK Tanks and DK DPS only serves to increase the uptime on Minor Brutality, same for redundant Templars.

It's not a fair comparison because Templars have no group utilities that aren't already covered by other classes or weapons. A DK can use Igneous Weapons to give the whole group major buffs that are normally sourced in-class or through potions. DK can give the whole group a damage shield that doesn't take up an ultimate slot or rely on synergy like Bone Shield. DK can cause everyone's attacks to deal more damage by stacking Stone Giant. DK can make other magDKs in the group disproportionately stronger than any other class with Engulfing Flames and Encratis. DK is the only class that gets stronger the more of them you manage to stack in one group. StamDK along with stamNB and stamCro are also the only classes that benefit from group sets like Morag Tong. There's a good reason why DKs are topping the leaderboards.

Meanwhile Templars have:
Radian Aura that gives the group Minor Endurance, Minor Fortitude, and Minor Intellect - this is made obsolete by Refreshing Path which has the same buffs + Major Expedition and a solid HoT.
Hasty Prayer - expensive heal which grants Minor Expedition. Completely outclassed by Quick Siphon, especially when Siphon is used with the Vateshran staff.

Nerfing backlash even for pvp makes no sense to be honest.
The skill can hit hard, yes, but it forces the casting templar to stay offensive.
Wardens can stay defensive for 90% of a fight and use shalks to bust out solid burst the remaining 10.
Templars cant do that.
The entire class is built around this offensive mindset, and the best counter to us is to force us to stay on the defense.

I barely play templar and not gonna lie the problem was backlash being op for dueling. But all the other damage nerfs to it wasnt necessary and actually fun to play in cyro. Nerf backlash and revert the nerfs to jabs etc. So that it doenst become a dead class.

Since they took the ability away to have more then one at a time, they could at least let the damage now be a AOE.

Sorcerer Curse is a AOE explosion Warden Scorch is AOE, Dragonknight inhale is AOE, Necromancer blastbones is AOE, Nigthblade Death Stroke is single target but both morphs have some pretty nice effects compare to Templar Backlash skill and its morphs.

Stay safe