Well, why should healers get nerf?

selig_fay · August 2022

Good. I warned about this problem. Since there is some discrepancy with the trinity in the game, the DPS gets more healing than the healer. That's because it doesn't matter what role you play, healing more effectively depends on max resource, weapon/spell damage and crit rating. So it doesn't really matter what role you play, you focus on these things to achieve big numbers.

There is also a stat that is not taken into account at all, because this stat requires sooo much investment to be as effective. I'm talking about healing output percentages.The reason why 10% damage is so good is that it is quite rare and you already have large damage figures. But when you are dealing with small numbers, you may run into a problem, because why would you deal with 5k+10% dps if you can get 6k dps in other ways. In healing, the same rule applies.

Well, this is one of the reasons why restostaff has become so popular in PVP. People already have all the things to make restostaff effective, because people make builds for damage, and more damage = more healing. Weeel. All I see now is nerf aoe healing abilities. For everyone. That is, this rule also works here. Less healing for dps players, less healing for healers. And I remind you that the only stat that only affects healing does not receive any buffs and remains weak.

I have a question. I'm the only one who doesn't understand what's going on here and why? Especially why? I mean, I don't have any way to reduce my damage for more healing. It's impossible.

I mean, the next thing that needs to be done is to increase player protection so that tanks can do high dps (of course having good healing). Then this game will be perfectly balanced. Sarcasm, of course, but there is a game where you will tank a raid with only one difference in the form of 1 heavier piece of armor, because you don't want to lose your DPS, but someone has to keep the boss in one place.

neferpitou73 · August 2022

I'm guessing the healer nerfs were targeting PvP and PvE healers were just caught in the crossfire because ZoS refuses to balance the two areas separately

M0ntie · August 2022

Because there was nothing wrong with PVE healing and whether it will be sufficient for HM content in u35 is questionable.
ZoS need to stop wrecking PVE because of PVP.

MidniteOwl1913 · August 2022

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm guessing the healer nerfs were targeting PvP and PvE healers were just caught in the crossfire because ZoS refuses to balance the two areas separately

That's my take on it.

BalticBlues · August 2022

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm guessing the healer nerfs were targeting PvP and PvE healers were just caught in the crossfire

EXACTLY.
Healing scaling with damage in spring 2022 was the WORST decision in ESO combat design history.
Before, balance was not great, but at least ok. However, since healing is scaling with damage,
DDs are the best healers now - and the ENTIRE GAME is going sideways:

DDs (especially Stam DDs), now have best damage & best healing. This IS God mode.
Even vDLC dungeons now are done with 3DDs plus Tank. Healers are not needed anymore.
Some Stamina players now use a Resto back bar because of their incredible healing.
Suddenly the overall healing is so high that good DDs are unkillable in PvP.
RESULT: Instead of reverting the false scaling desision, ZOS nerfs the Resto.
RESULT: Dedicated Healers are EVEN MORE USELESS IN ALMOST ALL CONTENT.
Vigor even gets a buff, while Mag players (sacrificing a weapon slot), get a Resto nerf.
Stam, already ruling PvP for 3 years, now is even getting stronger due to the Resto nerf.

Game and Balance are getting worse and worse, the longer the new healing scaling lasts.
ZOS, PLS REVERT THE FALSE HEALING DECISION - OR BRING US WROBEL BACK.

selig_fay · August 2022

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm guessing the healer nerfs were targeting PvP and PvE healers were just caught in the crossfire because ZoS refuses to balance the two areas separately

It doesn't matter because it's also a pve problem. DPS feels very easy in pve and I think people don't realize that they have to experience some problems because they are not tanks to facetank everything and not healers to overheal everything. But they can and do it. I think most of the DPS now have never worried about the power attacks of world bosses that can oneshot dungeon healer build.

the1andonlyskwex · August 2022

On the upside, maybe now PvE healers will actually have to put effort into healing, instead of just being buff bots for DPS.

DarcyMardin · August 2022

Because PvPers were complaining. As usual.

p00tx · August 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

On the upside, maybe now PvE healers will actually have to put effort into healing, instead of just being buff bots for DPS.

I'm guessing you haven't engaged in the hardmodes of the last 3 trials released

There's an absurd amount of healing required in all 3, and we're expected to handle that while also being buff bots. This isn't going to change our jobs, just make them more difficult.

selig_fay · August 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

On the upside, maybe now PvE healers will actually have to put effort into healing, instead of just being buff bots for DPS.

How to press one burst heal button many times, and then sit for 10-15 seconds in heavy attack?

p00tx · August 2022

selig_fay wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

On the upside, maybe now PvE healers will actually have to put effort into healing, instead of just being buff bots for DPS.

How to press one burst heal button many times, and then sit for 10-15 seconds in heavy attack?

I'm not sure if you're memeing a specific type of PvE healer, or PvE healing in general, but that's definitely not how it's supposed to work

SeaUnicorn · August 2022

Because we don't matter, and we did not matter ever. All 4man content is designed to where you are better off bringing 3DDs and a Tank with heals. Now 12 man content is better off with 2 tanks and 10 DDs cross healing one another.

We are 2 out of 12 in a 1% population. Our significance is infinitely reaches 0, so our feedback goes straight to trash bin. I spent so much time compiling feedback for healers PTS after PTS after PTS. And do I see results? No.

PVP complaints about "too much healing" are always always always of more significance than PVE healer feedback.

p00tx · August 2022

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Because we don't matter, and we did not matter ever. All 4man content is designed to where you are better off bringing 3DDs and a Tank with heals. Now 12 man content is better off with 2 tanks and 10 DDs cross healing one another.

We are 2 out of 12 in a 1% population. Our significance is infinitely reaches 0, so our feedback goes straight to trash bin. I spent so much time compiling feedback for healers PTS after PTS after PTS. And do I see results? No.

PVP complaints about "too much healing" are always always always of more significance than PVE healer feedback.

It definitely feels that way. I know there are devs who know how to dps and potentially even tank, but are there any that understand the healer role? I feel like that kind of falls through the cracks a lot and the changes feel very disconnected from that part of the role trinity. While healing was pretty strong before the patch, it could have been finely and moderately adjusted instead of sledgehammered back to the Summerset patch.

DrSlaughtr · August 2022

They've been kinda screwing PvE healers for awhile. In a lot of content that should require a dedicated healer it is often easier without one and it's doable because of the way heals scale with damage.

PVP has a similar issue with solo heals but it's even more complicated.

xDeusEJRx · August 2022

It wasn't even a good change for pvp.
No one on the pvp side even wanted such a change. We wanted to stop having 5-10 instances of the same heals(namely radiating regeneration) stacking on one person in PVP and they couldn't even do that.

So the healing situation in PVP is the exact same as before just with more crappy self-healing than before. So they didn't even properly change. Can't kill anyone when they have 10+ radiating regens on their buff bar filling their screen with healing ticks.

That's quite literally the problem, they could've just limited stacking the same heals all at once to say 2 instances and that would've fixed the healing problem in pvp. What radiating regen heals for is irrelevant when people are just gonna run resto back bars giving free heals to save a bunch of randoms who would be dead otherwise.

sweatapodimas · August 2022

PVP needed to tone down healing. PVE, hasn't all of the bosses been weakened quite a bit? If that is so then effectively healing hasn't changed. Or is it something like having the highest dps kind of competition, i.e. best of the best kind of thing. A numbers game.

BalticBlues · August 2022

sweatapodimas wrote: »

PVE, hasn't all of the bosses been weakened quite a bit? If that is so then effectively healing hasn't changed.

WRONG. Boss health is lower but Boss damage is NOT.
Therefore, Healers with their massively nerfed healing now struggle in Trials.

deleted221205-002626 · August 2022

they need to drasticallty create some seperation of dps and healing.. IMO best done in CP. drasticallty reduce dps and healing and than crank it via CP like 50% in the CP only so you have to choose to be a dps or a healer.. not both all the time!

deleted221205-002626 · August 2022

that was the very purpose of CP when it came out.. but with all the changes and nerfs theyve forgotten this and keep weakening CP so that basically everyone is the same regardless of race class or CP choices! oh except for that 6% healing boost for healers!! omg its game breaking lol its not even worth slotting healing in CP tbh

FrancisCrawford · August 2022

PvE has solo players too.

So getting too extreme on nerfing healing for DDs would be problematic.

Turtle_Bot · August 2022

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Because PvPers were complaining. As usual.

Except PvPers weren't complaining about individual values of heals, they were complaining that common aoe HoTs (regen/vigor) would stack infinitely with itself creating infinite healing in large organised raid groups.

All zos had to do was make it so that healing skills could only stack max twice (or stack diminishingly) with themselves and that would have fixed the pvp issue without harming pve since they ran at most 2 healers already anyway. These were the most common suggestions given to zos on how to fix this issue, that were given by those that have good knowledge of pvp.

So don't go blaming pvp for this, this mess up is entirely on zos shoulders. Especially since PvPers gave them a super simple fix that would balance it for pvp while not harming pve.

merpins · August 2022

People have been complaining about healers and healing in PvP for a while now. So yet again it's a PVP problem that's negatively effecting PVE. They should just balance the game modes separately already.

M0ntie · August 2022

The solution to not stack radiating regen more than twice would work for both PVP and PVE.

Tsilara · August 2022

I exclusively play healer based toons.

Most my healers were crit reliant and I kept them all btwn 40 and 50% crit.

It simply doesn't work anymore. Trying to go raw output doesn't work. Its not fun, it demoralizing.

I have one of each base class as a healer, (though my warden is pretty undeveloped) and am near 1900CP.

Where I used to provide 70 to 90% of all healing for 4 man content and 40 to 50% in trial content with 2 dedicated healers, those numbers have dropped significantly.

I find in 4 mans, I am providing 40% of the healing done and 20 to 25% in trials. It has effected all my healers very differently and I find my NB (surprise surprise) now has the strongest healing in the game when it used to be my Templar.

I used to also provide decent DPS while doing it, often matching what decent, though not godly, DPS brings to the party and group.

Imho, healing in VET and HM PVE is now completely broken for healers. They are useless and speccing DPS and resistance in PVE is now the way to go. In PVE vs damage output and content difficulty those changes appear to serve far better results.

I have been tweaking and trying to get my numbers back, but now where many low level dmg effects that hit for 3 to 5k per tick, my regens used to be able to over come that in balance, and I coudl place down multiple aoe for people to get that little extra boost as they run around trying to avoid or get out of bad..

Previously I kept my non crit regens were ticking between 4k to 4.5k. I could make them higher by sacrifcing crit, but it hurt other aspects of my playstyle too much and I spent a few years tuning all those characters to be effective and fun for me to play. I am not wasting another two years to do it again. I'll just find a new game, unless things improve.

Highest I have been able to achieve so far switching gear around and CP is just over 2.7k on the regen ticks. Other heals got hit even worse. Similarly, my DPS in that mode fell off a cliff from what I used to be able to contribute. I have managed to spike my dps up to 40k a couple of times brief moments, far from what I used to be able to add with all the buffs and debuffs and when i could throw in enough DPS skills to hit those numbers. I am typically provide 6k to 16k dps when I actually get a chance to not have to spam heals on people running all over the place to avoid bad.

Healers are completely broken. Personally, that aspect of the game with in the game is ruined. Its not fun anymore, its more frantic, its more frustrating and I don't feel a sense of satisfaction when we do overcome things, more a sense of loss, that I have been carries, rather than helping to carry the group, why bother anymore.

While I have been trying to adapt, but there is nothing to Adapt its just absolute terrible. New dev staff after the covid exodus does not appear to understand their game, this U35 patch destroyed the game for me worse than the Combat Upgrade for the original Star Wars Galaxies.

Switching mundus can alter the Healing from 2.7k to 2.4k on regen ticks. It used to have a much more significant effect. They are nothing more than a dps and resource buff bot and rezzer for people who cannot avoid bad.

For unavoidable damage and big AOE moments of unavoidable, even with all of us blocking through it. I can barely keep up, even stacking Illustrious, Regen, class specific abilities, hoping ppl stand togehter so I can spam combat prayer at them. I have massive resource Issues, but I was able to alleviate those by re-traiting and re-enchanting gear so that my 35K magika I used to try to hit with foob buffs, is now 40 to 42k. It really doesn't make much difference in the quality or strength of heals, a hundred or two hundred points a tick. Sure over time that adds up. Heals are not really need over time, when they are needed they are needed in the moment and in the immediate NOW.

I find the majority of my useful heals are the single target ones or combat prayer, and since everything is so mobile. Its rare I hit the whole 4 man party or most of a 12 man group.

These changes were badly thought out for the PVE healer, because there were not outgoing damage nerfs. IT seems we all got stack resistance now and go more PVP focused in our gear choices, and healers may as well respec DPS and every one use self heals.

MidniteOwl1913 · August 2022

Tsilara wrote: »

I exclusively play healer based toons.

Most my healers were crit reliant and I kept them all btwn 40 and 50% crit.

It simply doesn't work anymore. Trying to go raw output doesn't work. Its not fun, it demoralizing.

I have one of each base class as a healer, (though my warden is pretty undeveloped) and am near 1900CP.

Where I used to provide 70 to 90% of all healing for 4 man content and 40 to 50% in trial content with 2 dedicated healers, those numbers have dropped significantly.

I find in 4 mans, I am providing 40% of the healing done and 20 to 25% in trials. It has effected all my healers very differently and I find my NB (surprise surprise) now has the strongest healing in the game when it used to be my Templar.

I used to also provide decent DPS while doing it, often matching what decent, though not godly, DPS brings to the party and group.

Imho, healing in VET and HM PVE is now completely broken for healers. They are useless and speccing DPS and resistance in PVE is now the way to go. In PVE vs damage output and content difficulty those changes appear to serve far better results.

I have been tweaking and trying to get my numbers back, but now where many low level dmg effects that hit for 3 to 5k per tick, my regens used to be able to over come that in balance, and I coudl place down multiple aoe for people to get that little extra boost as they run around trying to avoid or get out of bad..

Previously I kept my non crit regens were ticking between 4k to 4.5k. I could make them higher by sacrifcing crit, but it hurt other aspects of my playstyle too much and I spent a few years tuning all those characters to be effective and fun for me to play. I am not wasting another two years to do it again. I'll just find a new game, unless things improve.

Highest I have been able to achieve so far switching gear around and CP is just over 2.7k on the regen ticks. Other heals got hit even worse. Similarly, my DPS in that mode fell off a cliff from what I used to be able to contribute. I have managed to spike my dps up to 40k a couple of times brief moments, far from what I used to be able to add with all the buffs and debuffs and when i could throw in enough DPS skills to hit those numbers. I am typically provide 6k to 16k dps when I actually get a chance to not have to spam heals on people running all over the place to avoid bad.

Healers are completely broken. Personally, that aspect of the game with in the game is ruined. Its not fun anymore, its more frantic, its more frustrating and I don't feel a sense of satisfaction when we do overcome things, more a sense of loss, that I have been carries, rather than helping to carry the group, why bother anymore.

While I have been trying to adapt, but there is nothing to Adapt its just absolute terrible. New dev staff after the covid exodus does not appear to understand their game, this U35 patch destroyed the game for me worse than the Combat Upgrade for the original Star Wars Galaxies.

Switching mundus can alter the Healing from 2.7k to 2.4k on regen ticks. It used to have a much more significant effect. They are nothing more than a dps and resource buff bot and rezzer for people who cannot avoid bad.

For unavoidable damage and big AOE moments of unavoidable, even with all of us blocking through it. I can barely keep up, even stacking Illustrious, Regen, class specific abilities, hoping ppl stand togehter so I can spam combat prayer at them. I have massive resource Issues, but I was able to alleviate those by re-traiting and re-enchanting gear so that my 35K magika I used to try to hit with foob buffs, is now 40 to 42k. It really doesn't make much difference in the quality or strength of heals, a hundred or two hundred points a tick. Sure over time that adds up. Heals are not really need over time, when they are needed they are needed in the moment and in the immediate NOW.

I find the majority of my useful heals are the single target ones or combat prayer, and since everything is so mobile. Its rare I hit the whole 4 man party or most of a 12 man group.

These changes were badly thought out for the PVE healer, because there were not outgoing damage nerfs. IT seems we all got stack resistance now and go more PVP focused in our gear choices, and healers may as well respec DPS and every one use self heals.

I'm on the console so I haven't seen this firsthand yet, but I have been reviewing my healers and based on that I've decided to switch my main healer for vet from my templar to my nightblade. The nightblade's tool kit is just better suited to the nerfs of U35. But I'm really not happy about this at all.

keto3000 · August 2022

For some perspective, here are some past forum links on the subject of PVE HEALING:

CP 2.0 FAQ (Mar 2021)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563606/cp-2-0-faq/p1

The State of PvE Healing (Jul 2019)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484605/the-state-of-pve-healing

PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE Healing (Jul 2019)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484078/pts-update-23-feedback-thread-for-pve-healing

The Biggest Problem in Balancing PVP and PVE Together is Healing (Aug 2017) Formulahttps://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/365417/the-biggest-problem-in-balancing-pvp-and-pve-together-is-healing-formula

Ah, the good ol' days!
(Be sure to check out some of the <spoilers> shows healer bars used in OP's first post

[TEMPLAR] [PVE] Nifty's Damage/Healing Build for Veteran DSA (12,435) AND TRIALS (Jul 2015)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/194601/templar-pve-niftys-damage-healing-build-for-veteran-dsa-12-435-and-trials

Cheers, keto

dmnqwk · August 2022

[snip]

They could've simply forced people to select a role for PvP and adjusted things accordingly

Tanks - Single Target damage reduced by 50%, Non-self healing reduced by 50%. Damage Shield strength reduced by 50%.
Healers - Damage reduced by 50%, Number of targets affected by heals limited to 3.
DD - Healing reduced by 75%, Damage Shield strength reduced by 50%

Adjust numbers accordingly, but the purpose would be to instill a role in people looking to take advantage and game the system without having to hurt PvE. Dark Cloak wouldn't need a 'stand still or it's bad' clause because in pvp it'd be far less effective.

[edited for bashing]

deleted221205-002626 · August 2022

dmnqwk wrote: »

[snip]

They could've simply forced people to select a role for PvP and adjusted things accordingly

Tanks - Single Target damage reduced by 50%, Non-self healing reduced by 50%. Damage Shield strength reduced by 50%.
Healers - Damage reduced by 50%, Number of targets affected by heals limited to 3.
DD - Healing reduced by 75%, Damage Shield strength reduced by 50%

Adjust numbers accordingly, but the purpose would be to instill a role in people looking to take advantage and game the system without having to hurt PvE. Dark Cloak wouldn't need a 'stand still or it's bad' clause because in pvp it'd be far less effective.

That was the purpose of CP in the beginning. But now they keep nerfing CP so it has so minimal effect on builds thats everyone is the same all the time and can be tank healer and dps all in one!

[edited to remove quote]

BalticBlues · August 2022

Tsilara wrote: »

Imho, healing in VET and HM PVE is now completely broken for healers. They are useless and speccing DPS and resistance in PVE is now the way to go.

THIS.

Spring 2022 brought healing scaling with damage. DDs became the best healers.
Autumn 2022 brought nerfed resto healing and buffed Vigor healing.
3DDs plus Tank is best now.

There is no need for healers in most content anymore.
In 2022, ZOS broke with the traditional gameplay rules.
DDs now are gods. Tanks are their helpers. Healers are... well, superfluous.