The Predatory nature of the Crown Crate system and a way out without decreasing revenue

Avariprivateer · August 2022

There generally three separate debates concerning Crown Crates and loot boxes in the video gaming industry as a whole. The first, which is generally the only question corporate boards have any interest in, is whether this revenue strategy can be implemented legally or not, or if the venture has perhaps entered the realm legal ambiguity, which more often than not can be used effectively for a limited period of time, awaiting the day the lethargic legislative branch and judicial system catch up. The second debate is philosophical, whether such practices are ethical or not, a question that can differ greatly from one person to another in the arbitrary nature of our world. The third debate is fundamental to the world of bioethics, psychology and medicine. That is actually where I would like to begin as reasoning in this area is less arbitrary than conflicting philosophers and as this is a worldwide forum, the laws of gambling and what defines it are nearly as variable.
There have been a number of clinical studies concerning gambling addiction and negative health repercussions, some of them more recent.
https://www.begambleaware.org/sites/default/files/2021-03/Gaming_and_Gambling_Report_Final.pdf
A notable except from the above, itself a review of several different studies:

Financial harm

Headlines stating: ‘One teenager spent nearly £3,000 on his addiction’ and ‘I blew my parents’
savings on Fifa’, are inconsistent with a review of the academic evidence. Here, the sums of money
tend to be rather modest: from all the survey evidence presented in the last section, the average
monthly spend on loot boxes is typically less than £20. Why the discrepancy?
The key point is that the distribution of spend is highly skewed. Whilst most loot box purchasers spend
modest amounts, there is a small number of high-level spenders, sometimes referred to as whales.
Here, there are industry insinuations that these big spenders are simply high-earning individuals,
those who can afford the recreational outgoings. However, others have argued that this group of
players may instead be over-represented by people with gambling problems
.
To investigate this issue, we conducted a secondary analysis of six open access datasets of loot box
surveys, aggregating data where authors made their data freely available
. The combined dataset
comprised of 7,771 loot box purchasers, and our analysis confirms that a disproportionate amount
of revenue is derived from high-level spenders (see Figure 6). For example, around 5% of loot
box purchasers in our dataset (those spending more than around £70 ($100) per month, or local
equivalent) generate around half of industry revenue from loot boxes. Similarly, around a third of
revenue is derived from the top 2% of purchasers**.
Moreover, these players have considerably higher scores of problem gambling symptoms (see Figure
6). For example, with the 5% of gamers spending over £70 / $100 per month, almost one third fall into
the ‘problem gambler’ category. Conversely, there is no evidence in our dataset that higher loot box
spend is correlated with higher personal earnings. Others have reported similar results, estimating that
almost half the top 5% of loot box spenders are people who gamble problematically

Overall, the results establish that whilst most individuals spend modest sums on loot boxes, there
are a minority of high-spending individuals (i.e. hundreds of pounds per month). Such patterns of
spending mirror those observed with gambling revenues. These people, our analysis reveals, are
much more likely to be experiencing problematic gambling.
Whilst our analysis did not investigate problem video gaming, it has been established that
associations between loot box purchasing and problem video gaming are, on aggregate, larger
than associations with problem gambling. It is therefore possible that a similar proportion of high
spenders might also be classified as people who have problems with their video gaming.
Games developers, unwittingly or not, appear to be generating outsized loot box profits from at-risk
individuals, likely to include both those with disordered gambling and disordered gaming – but not
from wealthy gamers, as they claim.
What our aggregated data analysis cannot reveal, however, is the degree to which such spending
translates into downstream harm, such as distress or poorer psychological wellbeing.

Psychological harm

The history of video gaming research is dogged by controversies around issues of ‘psychological
harm.’ There is a large body of research built up over decades, for example, investigating whether
violent video games increased aggressive behaviour. But as scientists implemented more robust
approaches, it has turned out that any associations were of negligible magnitude. Eventually, the
American Psychological Association summarised there was ‘scant evidence’.
Given this history, any links between loot boxes and wellbeing or psychological distress should be
interpreted cautiously. After all, something like wellbeing is influenced by a myriad of personal, social,
and lifestyle factors, and any effect of loot boxes will be difficult to disentangle from other aspects of
gaming behaviour, swamped by other influences.
Nonetheless, numerous academic commentators have stressed the potential negative impacts of
loot boxes on player mental health and wellbeing. Preliminary evidence has linked loot box
engagement with higher levels of psychological distress, albeit a finding that is indirect or of a small
magnitude, and cautiously interpreted by the authors. In fact, in one of these studies, loot box
spending seemed to be correlated with both negative and positive moods.
Such findings indicate that relationships with mental wellbeing are likely to be complex. Gambling
research has shown that ‘psychiatric disorders can represent both as a precursor and as a
consequence of problem gambling’. It is therefore plausible that loot box purchasing could be both
a cause and a consequence of mental distress. Furthermore, additional comorbid conditions – just like
gambling – could further contribute to both heavy loot box engagement and psychological distress.
It remains to be established whether relationships between loot box purchasing and problem
gambling translate into psychological harm, and more research is required to further unpack complex
relationships between gaming, gambling, spending behaviour and financial/psychological wellbeing.
The next stages of our own research, currently being conducted, aim to use novel survey approaches
to investigate these questions more fully.

This is journalistic article citing the above for those inclined to that format:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56614281

Additionally, these are some articles I read a couple of years ago, noting gambling has been linked to higher rates of suicide and suicidal ideation:

https://knowtheodds.org/blog/problem-gambling-suicide-ideation/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/13/problem-gamblers-at-15-times-higher-risk-of-suicide-study-finds

I also especially recommend this one, its medically reviewed, concise and not terribly long:
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-gambling-disorder-22015

And an excerpt:

Although gambling problems may seem trivial on the surface, in reality, they are anything but. One of the reasons that gambling disorder has become recognized is because of the severe consequences for individuals and their families.

Not only do some people who develop gambling disorder literally gamble away everything they own, and end up in crippling debt, but far more of them become suicidal than would be expected in the general population.

In treatment populations, about half of those with gambling disorder have suicidal ideation, and about 18% have attempted suicide.

And, finally a newer March 2022 publication from Reasearchgate. In addition to a brief extract there is a full text for those lapsed teacher's pets among us or anyone who might otherwise be inclined to spend far more on Crate themselves.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359610457_Loot_boxes_and_problem_gambling_Investigating_the_gateway_hypothesis

Now with that out of the way, for my proposed solution the problem of Crown Crates.

Whenever a new season of Crown Crates is advertised Apex and Radiant Apex mounts are generally front and center in beckoning would be buyers. There are some who would argue these crates are not actually a form of gambling, or at the very least they are mechanically but not legally so. Naturally this depends on the country or subdivision of a country, in which one resides. At this point I must mention that the odds of winning a Radiant Apex mount off the bat, excluding any additional gem prospecting or endeavor grinding (the latter of which I have no opposition to), is roughly 1 in 1,000 which is equivalent to winning the primary payout on a Pick 3 Lottery ticket.

I propose a simple Crown Crate replacement, instead of highly skewed odds for the often more desirable item, all rewards should lay within a single tier at 1:1 odds. If a Crown Crate contains 80
rewards the likelihood of successful acquisition of any single prize is 1.25%. For those wondering what we have now please view the results of the popular addon's website: crowncrates.com

By enabling 1:1 across all items we ensure even odds whilst allowing the alluring novelty and random fun of a mystery box system to continue. Naturally that begs the question, if it becomes easier to acquire rewards will Zenimax lose income on a reduced volume of Crates sold? Likely it would. I would suggest adjusting to price upward to compensate this. How much would be necessary to break even against current revenue numbers I'm not quite sure, but Zenimax could easily find out by experimenting with this method for one Crate season, it would produce more than enough data to make such a determination. It would not be dissimilar to Lego's Collectible Minifigure blind bags, which while a bit expensive, consumers have roughly even odds of getting any one particular minifig.

Unknown_Redemption · August 2022

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

While I agree that there are certainly a lot of games that are more predatory than ESO, the fact that there is no pity system in place definitely puts it in the worse half of online gambling options. Also to my knowledge ZOS has not officially disclosed the odds of obtaining a radiant apex reward, so it's still very much iffy. And the endeavors might abide by the letter of the law of Microsoft's loot box policy but when I read

All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay

I think something else is meant by that. There is certainly room for interpretation here. If you consider that items are added faster to the crown crates than the rate at which you can earn them through endeavors, even if you grind you can never obtain "all items" even in an infinite amount of time. So in my opinion ESO's solution does not adhere to the spirit of the law behind Microsoft's policy - which was probably left vague on purpose to allow for these things to happen.

If game companies cannot be trusted to be ethical all on their own, we are left with no other choice but having legislature force them to be more ethical about their business.

Aislinna · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

While I agree that there are certainly a lot of games that are more predatory than ESO, the fact that there is no pity system in place definitely puts it in the worse half of online gambling options. Also to my knowledge ZOS has not officially disclosed the odds of obtaining a radiant apex reward, so it's still very much iffy. And the endeavors might abide by the letter of the law of Microsoft's loot box policy but when I read

All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay

I think something else is meant by that. There is certainly room for interpretation here. If you consider that items are added faster to the crown crates than the rate at which you can earn them through endeavors, even if you grind you can never obtain "all items" even in an infinite amount of time. So in my opinion ESO's solution does not adhere to the spirit of the law behind Microsoft's policy - which was probably left vague on purpose to allow for these things to happen.

If game companies cannot be trusted to be ethical all on their own, we are left with no other choice but having legislature force them to be more ethical about their business.

To help increase your knowledge, the odds are published and not hard to find: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49828/~/what-are-the-odds-for-crown-crate-rewards-in-the-elder-scrolls-online?

Ratzkifal · August 2022

Aislinna wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

While I agree that there are certainly a lot of games that are more predatory than ESO, the fact that there is no pity system in place definitely puts it in the worse half of online gambling options. Also to my knowledge ZOS has not officially disclosed the odds of obtaining a radiant apex reward, so it's still very much iffy. And the endeavors might abide by the letter of the law of Microsoft's loot box policy but when I read

All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay

I think something else is meant by that. There is certainly room for interpretation here. If you consider that items are added faster to the crown crates than the rate at which you can earn them through endeavors, even if you grind you can never obtain "all items" even in an infinite amount of time. So in my opinion ESO's solution does not adhere to the spirit of the law behind Microsoft's policy - which was probably left vague on purpose to allow for these things to happen.

If game companies cannot be trusted to be ethical all on their own, we are left with no other choice but having legislature force them to be more ethical about their business.

To help increase your knowledge, the odds are published and not hard to find: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49828/~/what-are-the-odds-for-crown-crate-rewards-in-the-elder-scrolls-online?

@Aislinna And now let me help increase your knowledge. That's not "easy to find" at all. And where does it say Radiant Apex there? Huh? I'm don't see it.
Edit: Oh and let me add, the Microsoft policy clearly states that these have to be published

Where loot box items are offered for purchase within our games, players will be told the probability of obtaining each category of possible items (e.g. 80% for a “common” item, 15% for a “rare” item, and 5% for an “epic” item).

"Within our games".

merpins · August 2022

Brah We Got This did a video earlier today about switching to a battle pass system. I honestly wouldn't mind a battle pass system for an MMO. I'm firmly against gambling based monetization systems, so a battle pass could be a fine way to swap. Now I know battle passes are disliked by a lot of people, but there's a number of reasons as to why it could work, and of course the further reason of these gambling type monetization options are going to get banned in most countries I'm sure. Might as well jump to that to grab some good press and claim that gambling monetization is wrong and blah blah blah rather than wait for the bad press to hit once it gets banned everywhere.

Ratzkifal · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Brah We Got This did a video earlier today about switching to a battle pass system. I honestly wouldn't mind a battle pass system for an MMO. I'm firmly against gambling based monetization systems, so a battle pass could be a fine way to swap. Now I know battle passes are disliked by a lot of people, but there's a number of reasons as to why it could work, and of course the further reason of these gambling type monetization options are going to get banned in most countries I'm sure. Might as well jump to that to grab some good press and claim that gambling monetization is wrong and blah blah blah rather than wait for the bad press to hit once it gets banned everywhere.

ESO almost has something akin to a battle pass system already. Combine endeavors and daily login rewards and you have yourself a battle pass. Give extra rewards for ESO+ owners (basically the premium pass) and voila! Battle pass that gives seals of endeavor so you can decide what your want in your daily login rewards on your own while also allowing you to go on vacation for a week or two without necessarily having to miss out on anything.
I definitely think this would be a great improvement, even if they didn't get rid of clown crates right away.

merpins · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Brah We Got This did a video earlier today about switching to a battle pass system. I honestly wouldn't mind a battle pass system for an MMO. I'm firmly against gambling based monetization systems, so a battle pass could be a fine way to swap. Now I know battle passes are disliked by a lot of people, but there's a number of reasons as to why it could work, and of course the further reason of these gambling type monetization options are going to get banned in most countries I'm sure. Might as well jump to that to grab some good press and claim that gambling monetization is wrong and blah blah blah rather than wait for the bad press to hit once it gets banned everywhere.

ESO almost has something akin to a battle pass system already. Combine endeavors and daily login rewards and you have yourself a battle pass. Give extra rewards for ESO+ owners (basically the premium pass) and voila! Battle pass that gives seals of endeavor so you can decide what your want in your daily login rewards on your own while also allowing you to go on vacation for a week or two without necessarily having to miss out on anything.
I definitely think this would be a great improvement, even if they didn't get rid of clown crates right away.

It's similar but not the same. I think keeping the normal way to get seals is fine, but also adding larger amounts of seals of endeavor towards the end of each battle pass, and smaller amounts as you go through it. Keep daily log-in rewards since that's pretty normal, but put all the good stuff behind the subscription-based battle pass. They could also keep a random box of sorts, but rather than it being from a huge pool, it could be like... You can get a box with a random Apex reward towards the middle or end of the battle pass; it will ALWAYS be a random Apex reward, no chance of getting something bad. Then just keep the list of items from the crown crate store, but make it so you can only purchase things with gems or seals, and you can't get them through boxes (other than normal apex, which you can get 1 as a box towards the end of the battle pass. 100 levels or so of the pass, and each pass lasts for a month or so. And add lots of cosmetics and rewards throughout the pass, obviously.

Psiion · August 2022

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Carcamongus · August 2022

I won't go into the debate of whether crown crates are gambling or if the word "predatory" is fitting. My belief remains that the current endeavor system is barely enough to seriously make crate goodies affordable without real money. 10 seals for completing a trial, really? More options to obtain this currency should be added and endeavor store prices should be lowered. Crates will look a lot less like gambling if we don't have to farm every single seal for a whole year to grab a radiant apex.

Fischblut · August 2022

Since the very introduction of crown crate system, there was only 1 Radiant Apex mount which I truly 100% loved. All other mounts were nice and adored, but their rarity played big role in their image for me.

I used to love opening crates... before we got Radiant Apex available for gems and Seals of Endeavors system. Developers made the reward system more fair to players, but this also greatly reduced the prestige and rarity of such mounts. Now when I look at some Radiants and Apex mounts which I would happily open crates for, I don't find any wish to either "gamble" or buy them with gems/Seals. Maybe someday there will be another mount I 100% love, so his lack of rarity won't matter.

Also, I stopped buying gem-exclusive items as well - they are not really exclusive anymore.
And old crates keep returning to the store, removing most of prestige of old Radiant Apex mounts :'(

By enabling 1:1 across all items we ensure even odds whilst allowing the alluring novelty and random fun of a mystery box system to continue. Naturally that begs the question, if it becomes easier to acquire rewards will Zenimax lose income on a reduced volume of Crates sold? Likely it would.

Of course it would. But if crates system was introduced like this from the very begginning, it would okay and fair. People still would spend money to get 80 crates for all rewards. I think there would be much greater amount of people participating in such crate system.

I play GW2, where you can buy a pack of 15 different mount skins (and they all have different themes and rotate in the store each year). You can get random skin for cheap (400 currency), selected skin for 1200 currency, or all 15 skins for 5100 currency. Random license always gives you mount skin which you don't own, so you never get doubles. It's really great system, and it's fair for everyone

There is also no real prestige in mount skins there, because you can earn gold in-game to buy everything, and they return to the store often. There is no such mount skin which makes people turn their heads... But there is a little bit of prestige in certain 30 mount skins even there!

Interesting fact: when they first released such mount skins pack, it had 30 skins and you could only buy random license - not select one. So, to get just one mount skin which you wanted, with the worst luck you had to buy all 30 skins for ~10000 currency. After many complaints, they changed all next mount selcetions to the 15 skin pack which I've already mentioned here.
But, with respect to their old players and to keep most of the value of those first mount skins, developers didn't add ability to select just one skin. Now it's still either random skin, or a pack of 10 random skins. With the worst luck, player still has to buy all 30 skins to get his favourite mount. Annoying to new players, and almost fair to old players

I had to buy all 30 skins (3 packs x 10 skins) to get just a 3 skins I wanted

I wish developers did similar in ESO, and at least kept prestige of old Radiant Apex mounts. They shouldn't have made them available for gems (or at least not for Seals, since people still need to open crates to accumulate many gems)

ixmike · August 2022

I was never much of a gambler, so yeah.

I don't really get it.

kargen27 · August 2022

"Oh and let me add, the Microsoft policy clearly states that these have to be published"
The Microsoft policy does not extend to existing content they have purchased. It will apply to content in development. ESO most likely changed their policies involving crown crates to comply with laws in some European countries.

AinSoph · August 2022

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

While I agree that there are certainly a lot of games that are more predatory than ESO, the fact that there is no pity system in place definitely puts it in the worse half of online gambling options. Also to my knowledge ZOS has not officially disclosed the odds of obtaining a radiant apex reward, so it's still very much iffy. And the endeavors might abide by the letter of the law of Microsoft's loot box policy but when I read

All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay

I think something else is meant by that. There is certainly room for interpretation here. If you consider that items are added faster to the crown crates than the rate at which you can earn them through endeavors, even if you grind you can never obtain "all items" even in an infinite amount of time. So in my opinion ESO's solution does not adhere to the spirit of the law behind Microsoft's policy - which was probably left vague on purpose to allow for these things to happen.

If game companies cannot be trusted to be ethical all on their own, we are left with no other choice but having legislature force them to be more ethical about their business.

To help increase your knowledge, the odds are published and not hard to find: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49828/~/what-are-the-odds-for-crown-crate-rewards-in-the-elder-scrolls-online?

@Aislinna And now let me help increase your knowledge. That's not "easy to find" at all. And where does it say Radiant Apex there? Huh? I'm don't see it.
Edit: Oh and let me add, the Microsoft policy clearly states that these have to be published

Where loot box items are offered for purchase within our games, players will be told the probability of obtaining each category of possible items (e.g. 80% for a “common” item, 15% for a “rare” item, and 5% for an “epic” item).

"Within our games".

The rates are actually posted in the in-game help menu...not that anyone would know because of how tucked away it is.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · August 2022

I'll admit that the financial model isn't appealing whatsoever.
I wonder how long this elastic path will stretch?

xaraan · August 2022

I don't think they have any desire to make the Crown Crate system fair. It's literally meant to be a money sink for players that get into it, every part of it is designed to appeal to that chancy/gambling nature of some and take advantage of them. Even if you have a handle over those sorts of issues, the gem cost to gem value of items is way off for a reason, more and more junk is added to the crates as time goes on (making higher tier rewards harder to get) are added for a reason.

At least ESO is far far better than some other games in this regard and I'll give them credit for the stuff they've added with endeavors to be able to earn a chance to buy those items in game. But I wouldn't expect them to suddenly become moral about the issue, the suits would just fire and replace someone that effected income that much. Companies are usually only moral for PR, (which zos has mostly mastered in that regard) past that, they will get away with whatever they can until regulated. So regulating stuff like chance crates in games and the like is the only thing that will really change the way it is.

Tandor · August 2022

AinSoph wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

Microsoft already restructured the system so its in line with their policies. Its fine.
When regulations police some of the games that are 1000x more predatory than ESO; maybe we will see another shift in this game.

While I agree that there are certainly a lot of games that are more predatory than ESO, the fact that there is no pity system in place definitely puts it in the worse half of online gambling options. Also to my knowledge ZOS has not officially disclosed the odds of obtaining a radiant apex reward, so it's still very much iffy. And the endeavors might abide by the letter of the law of Microsoft's loot box policy but when I read

All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay

I think something else is meant by that. There is certainly room for interpretation here. If you consider that items are added faster to the crown crates than the rate at which you can earn them through endeavors, even if you grind you can never obtain "all items" even in an infinite amount of time. So in my opinion ESO's solution does not adhere to the spirit of the law behind Microsoft's policy - which was probably left vague on purpose to allow for these things to happen.

If game companies cannot be trusted to be ethical all on their own, we are left with no other choice but having legislature force them to be more ethical about their business.

To help increase your knowledge, the odds are published and not hard to find: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/49828/~/what-are-the-odds-for-crown-crate-rewards-in-the-elder-scrolls-online?

@Aislinna And now let me help increase your knowledge. That's not "easy to find" at all. And where does it say Radiant Apex there? Huh? I'm don't see it.
Edit: Oh and let me add, the Microsoft policy clearly states that these have to be published

Where loot box items are offered for purchase within our games, players will be told the probability of obtaining each category of possible items (e.g. 80% for a “common” item, 15% for a “rare” item, and 5% for an “epic” item).

"Within our games".

The rates are actually posted in the in-game help menu...not that anyone would know because of how tucked away it is.

I found them by googling "eso crown crate odds".

Mascen · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Brah We Got This did a video earlier today about switching to a battle pass system. I honestly wouldn't mind a battle pass system for an MMO. I'm firmly against gambling based monetization systems, so a battle pass could be a fine way to swap. Now I know battle passes are disliked by a lot of people, but there's a number of reasons as to why it could work, and of course the further reason of these gambling type monetization options are going to get banned in most countries I'm sure. Might as well jump to that to grab some good press and claim that gambling monetization is wrong and blah blah blah rather than wait for the bad press to hit once it gets banned everywhere.

Problem with battle pass systems IME is that things on the pass usually end up being exclusive to that season and you cant get them if you weren't playing then. The good thing about the crates system at the very least is that they bring them out of the content vault every now and then.

What I think needs to be done is tweak both the daily rewards and endeavor system here and there. In previous years, ZOS gave out preview crown crates as a daily reward, but it also allowed them to showcase what they had in them which allowed players to evaluate what they wanted better and prepare. Meanwhile I think ZOS could be a little more generous with the amount of Endeavor seals they give out daily/weekly, maybe bump the weekly's up to the 300s and the dailies to 20 or 25 on average.

Amottica · August 2022

Avariprivateer wrote: »

By enabling 1:1 across all items we ensure even odds whilst allowing the alluring novelty and random fun of a mystery box system to continue. Naturally that begs the question, if it becomes easier to acquire rewards will Zenimax lose income on a reduced volume of Crates sold? Likely it would. I would suggest adjusting to price upward to compensate this. How much would be necessary to break even against current revenue numbers I'm not quite sure, but Zenimax could easily find out by experimenting with this method for one Crate season, it would produce more than enough data to make such a determination. It would not be dissimilar to Lego's Collectible Minifigure blind bags, which while a bit expensive, consumers have roughly even odds of getting any one particular minifig.

I am not advocating or even trying to defend crates even though I am someone who chooses to not buy them.

However, pointing out the fallacy of this argument that Zenimax can make the odds of getting anything in particular equal across the board and then just raid prices until revenues equal what they currently receive from selling crates. The first issue is people decide to buy something based on price. At some point, Zenimax would most certainly start selling fewer crates and that is likely well before they reach the current revenue.

If it were truly this simple they would already be doing this and avoid the controversy. I am not knocking making the suggestion but merely pointing out why it would not work.

Gaebriel0410 · August 2022

Prestige and rarity do nothing for me, I much rather ride a regular mount that blends in with the setting, instead of a glittering particle overload on legs.

I guess I derive my "prestige" (for lack of a better word, since I really don't view it in such a way) from the outfits I have created, dyed and matched, and not from what might have dropped for me from a loot crate.

So for me it kinda works, as I only buy crates in moderation really. I usually have no interest at all in the most expensive items. I am still not a fan of loot crates, but at least for me, getting a mount I like is usually just 2000 seals instead of 16000.

DMuehlhausen · August 2022

They aren't predatory. You know how they work, pay them or don't. Nothing is forcing you to.

DMuehlhausen · August 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Prestige and rarity do nothing for me, I much rather ride a regular mount that blends in with the setting, instead of a glittering particle overload on legs.

I guess I derive my "prestige" (for lack of a better word, since I really don't view it in such a way) from the outfits I have created, dyed and matched, and not from what might have dropped for me from a loot crate.

So for me it kinda works, as I only buy crates in moderation really. I usually have no interest at all in the most expensive items. I am still not a fan of loot crates, but at least for me, getting a mount I like is usually just 2000 seals instead of 16000.

For the most part I feel the same way. I just miss the days, before loot crates where all this stuff would be random world drops, or world boss drops, or dungeon bosses etc. It kept the community more active doing content farming for "prestige" items.