RIP Jabs (Please don't change jabs 7/29)

merpins · July 2022

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Ah so if they just use ps2 Era animation they can add more stuff. Got it

The lower the quality, the more they can add!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIxHA2cby2Y

KeiRaikon · July 2022

Animation wise I like the new animation overall but I think they could make the spear slightly smaller and give the 3rd jab more heft.

Damage wise nerfing the damage (and the healing of Puncturing for some reason) alongside nerfing the damage and frequency of Burning Light is pretty overkill.

fizl101 · July 2022

KeiRaikon wrote: »

Animation wise I like the new animation overall but I think they could make the spear slightly smaller and give the 3rd jab more heft.

Damage wise nerfing the damage (and the healing of Puncturing for some reason) alongside nerfing the damage and frequency of Burning Light is pretty overkill.

Yep, its pretty much nerfed the identity of a templar, when templars will be using flurry instead of jabs.

Even the meme of 1 skill 1 button play (which wasn't the reality but hey ***), everyone will be same as templar! Put down 5-7 dots and spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam etc etc

TechMaybeHic · July 2022

Been looking at this, debating on if I even run it pvp just to keep major brutality up as stamplar if people start using that debuff set but jabs now is the same time as dizzy swing, hits for slightly less assuming I land all 3 main hits on an intended target, can be mitigated by major and minor evasion, and rather than getting off balance damage and sustain boost potential, I get a half send snare.

rivance · July 2022

Honest question as a new player. Does magplar still use jabs on pts? I love my Templar, but jabs is like 90% off why I love it. I don’t know the game well enough to know if it’s still worth running, but I really really hope it is. The destro staff spammable is boring. The animation change I can live with, but I do prefer the old animation.

merpins · July 2022

rivance wrote: »

Honest question as a new player. Does magplar still use jabs on pts? I love my Templar, but jabs is like 90% off why I love it. I don’t know the game well enough to know if it’s still worth running, but I really really hope it is. The destro staff spammable is boring. The animation change I can live with, but I do prefer the old animation.

I believe the consensus right now is no, it uses Dark Flare now. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong.

I prefer jabs, too. But it's a very heavy nerf, and the change to the animation sucks. I'm probably gonna shelf my templar next patch until there are either adjustments or a reversal of the animation change. Either of those might happen during the PTS cycle, to keep an eye on it. The second week tends to only be minor adjustments, with the major ones coming the third week, so unless ZoS is planning on reversing their decisions due to the backlash come monday, you'll most likely see if there are any adjustments on the 25th.

Swagata01 · July 2022

They reduced the damage of jab, reduced healing, reduced burning light proc chance along with damage. Not to mention horrible animation. I mean do they have something personal against Templar?

merpins · July 2022

Swagata01 wrote: »

They reduced the damage of jab, reduced healing, reduced burning light proc chance along with damage. Not to mention horrible animation. I mean do they have something personal against Templar?

Dunno why they wanna redo the Jabs animation. My guess is they wanted to make it 3 hits to reduce the damage, either because they wanted to make Flurry 4 hits instead of 5 and they didn't want both skills to hit the same amount of times for some reason, or because they just wanted to make Jabs 3 hits for whatever reason. Because they want to do this change, it requires a new animation due to the fact that the old one hits 4 times, and it would be weird if the new one that only hits 3 times looked like hit hit 4 times. It could also be because they have no way of speeding up the old animation to .8 seconds because it was made by the original development team. This I doubt, however.

What they should just do is speed up the animation of the original one to .8 seconds (if that was their main intention), then if they must, either nerf the damage or make all the jab hits deal uniform damage, rather than having the last one hit harder than the rest (they seem to be moving away from this kind of attack, hence Flurry). People love this skill, the fact that they're trying to change it is honestly mind boggling.

K9002 · July 2022

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I believe the consensus right now is no, it uses Dark Flare now. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong.

The thing is that for some reason, this a skill which should be an alternative spammable, but it also has a mobile DoT morph which is still too good to give up. With Sweeps reduced to nothing and light attacks not scaling with spell power, perma empower is a good thing to have. Also we can't block-cast Flare. For Sweeps it was okay because the inability to mitigate incoming damage was offset by good damage and self-healing. Flare offers neither of these things and its debuff is beyond useless in PvE. And Flare can only apply minor magickasteal while something like Crushing Shock or Ele Weapon applies all 3 elemental effects and their associated debuffs.

K9002 · July 2022

UESP has updated the skill browser for U35 PTS, week 1. For the sake of simplicity, I've set the stats to 40k magicka and 5000 spell damage. For reference: Sweeps + Burning Light on live deals 19,912 damage. So here are the spammable options for magplars:

Puncturing Sweep

In practice we dish out alternating damage values. One GDC for 11,343 alternating with the better GDC when BL procs for total 15,041. In highly mobile fights or narrow vulnerability windows we'll have more Sweeps casts without the BL proc. This is at the base cost of 2295 magicka, it's our cheapest available spammable. As an added bonus, Sweeps gives us Minor Protection and passively increases crit damage by 10%.

Dark Flare

This looks bad. 10,215 damage, this is less than Sweeps without BL and it can't proc BL as often. More expensive than Sweeps, can't be block-cast, doesn't heal, doesn't provide Protection, doesn't count for the 10% crit damage passive so we still need some other Aedric Spear ability on the main bar. The alternative morph deals a total of 19,734 damage and it's a mobile DoT, so we don't have to recast it while repositioning.

Crushing Shock

8595 damage isn't flattering at all. But it does apply all elemental status effects and killing blows restore more magicka than it costs to cast. I guess it's alright for a healer wearing Elemental Catalyst.

Elemental Weapon

8881 is hardly better than what we get with Crushing Shock and this ability is notoriously difficult to use right under high latency. Spell Orb adds only 925 DPS under ideal conditions

divnyi · July 2022

ZOS: we are doing changes to make light attacks less mandatory!
Also ZOS: we changed jabs from 1s to 0.8s to make weaving easier. They also do twice less damage now.

shadyjane62 · July 2022

divnyi wrote: »

ZOS: we are doing changes to make light attacks less mandatory!
Also ZOS: we changed jabs from 1s to 0.8s to make weaving easier. They also do twice less damage now.

And they now look terrible while they are active.

gariondavey · July 2022

Billium813 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno these templar super nerfs are causing you guys to bleed players. Please look at fixing this in week 2 or week 3 notes.

How do you know that? How do you know that players are leaving over Templar changes? Do you have information to provide on subscription numbers pre/post changes?

"MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The spear model is just the Nighthollow Staff motif....

If I put my tin foil hat on, could this be another example of console game size restrictions forcing ZOS to reuse animations and models?

I know players are leaving over the templar changes because I've spoken to several templar mains who ARE leaving over this.

hakan · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

It is RIP to all last parts of balance ))
And any logick

You make 2 strikes with axes - they do 4 hits.
It is as some marketing from some shave ? )))

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4HQ5mXp37gw

As a templar ... it is not complete bad -1-2 attack is normal but 3-rd hit ... pfff.

So all the skill look really bad.

If players like old animation what was the reason to change it ?

Wait, thats the new animation??? Its terrible

renne · July 2022

Lmao that certainly does not look like a flurry.

shadyjane62 · July 2022

Billium813 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno these templar super nerfs are causing you guys to bleed players. Please look at fixing this in week 2 or week 3 notes.

How do you know that? How do you know that players are leaving over Templar changes? Do you have information to provide on subscription numbers pre/post changes?

"MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

The spear model is just the Nighthollow Staff motif....

If I put my tin foil hat on, could this be another example of console game size restrictions forcing ZOS to reuse animations and models?

I'm Templar main and metaphorically speaking I have already left. The only thing I've done in game is endeavors and writs.

I'm making 16 alts to craft with to give me something to do when patch hits because it makes me sick to see the new animation for jabs.

Including the nerfs to dmg and healing and most of all stealth nerf to lightning staves have just about gutted me to the ground.

I am 8 year player not going to make it to nine.

And btw if I wanted to duel wield axes or daggers I would have become a NB.
I have no intention of joining the One Million stamblades that will populate the game since they actually got buffed. when all the rest of us were thrown to the side.

ADarklore · July 2022

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Did all the Templar players quit? I think the new animation looks cool but the damage got roasted… why is there not more outcry from the Templar base?

I know I unsubbed and quit all the trade guilds and haven't been back in-game since. There are other games out there and more coming in the fall and new MMORPG's coming out over the next couple of years. The only thing that ZOS listens to is $$, so when they experience a HUGE dip in revenue after this patch (they already did after High Isle), perhaps they might reverse course a bit. I know the head of Microsoft gaming is pushing for 'accessibility for all people' across all Microsoft-owned games, but this was a quick and lazy approach that was not well thought-out at all. It was a knee-jerk reaction, get what I did there Rich, to Microsoft's demands.

Nevidyra · July 2022

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%, ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

If you're going to remove one tick of damage from jabs, you need to BUFF the remaining three ticks to compensate and make up for the lost damage, NOT nerf them.

Please buff jabs and burning light (get rid of the 500ms stack generation cooldown, PLEASE) so that Templar isn't dead in the water and still has class identity, thank you.

Firstmep · July 2022

Nevidyra wrote: »

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%, ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

If you're going to remove one tick of damage from jabs, you need to BUFF the remaining three ticks to compensate and make up for the lost damage, NOT nerf them.

Please buff jabs and burning light (get rid of the 500ms stack generation cooldown, PLEASE) so that Templar isn't dead in the water and still has class identity, thank you.

What's funny, is that the notes saytheyre nerfing the dmg of jabs beacuse it's easier to weave now.
However the removal of 1 tick of dmg is also a nerf already, so the additional 21% nerf is just overkill.
Also they're nerfing the dmg cuz of weaving, in the same patch they made weaving do significantly less dmg.
Like what, lol.
The burning light change I dont mind, it was kinda dumb that almost exclusively jabs was proccing it ever.
But the dmg nerf on top of the new cooldown is once again overkill.
That being said if they remove the cooldown while allowing it to proc of any dmg, that would be insanely op.

JanTanhide · July 2022

New animation looks like my Templar is wielding a wet Mop. This change and all the other changes coming with doom patch 35 have driven me and many others out of ESO.

fred4 · July 2022

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Jabs are going to be a meme in pvp now. "Oh look at the cute little templar trying to poke me with that little stick. Isn't that adorable."

I petition we start calling jabs "the tickle stick."

That's what it looks like to me too. Templar is hard to balance, although I suppose that goes for eveything. You have to be very aggressive playing it, as (Jabs) damage is it's biggest asset. The downsides are that it's melee, that not all hits may connect, that it can be mitigated by Shuffle, that it can mainly hit the wrong target such as the Engine Guardian, and that you get locked into the animation, e.g. you can't block or dodge cancel it. That last one is a big one. Those are a lot of downsides and the reasons why jabs need to be strong in PvP. If the target is caught in jabs, that needs to be deadly (along with Power of the Light).

In the past this was most evident on stamplar. When Jabs wasn't tuned right, the class suffered. At least it had Deadly Strikes. Then that set became available for magplar and magplar became overtuned for a while. Except in the current patch it's been superseded by mag DKs and bowsorcs, so what gives?

Am I wrong? How can this be easy to see for a PvPer, yet it seems to elude ZOS?

TechMaybeHic · July 2022

New Jab animation is fine. I mean, it is common practice when wield a spear to have more of it sticking out the back so you also beat on your allies if they get within 5 meters of you.

But seriously. Did they keep the same audio? A lot more whooshing noises than actual movement

From_Siberia · July 2022

Some people here say that new jabs animation is "acceptable". Look at this parse -

https://youtu.be/SFEcve9ES1E.

The character shakes his head left and right. From this should begin a strong dizziness i think. I'm serious, try moving your head left and right for a while.

If this cheap animation made by a person who has not received a salary for a long time comes to live, then I think jabs should now give debuff stacks. 3 pressed jabs - templar gets offbalance debuff, 4 - stun. Sorc streak mechanic but on spam-ability hahah! I think it would be at least a funny mockery of the class.

Zos, really, don't touch my jabs! This is an energy-filled, dynamic and beautiful skill. And spear of light looks more elegant than a copy-paste of one of dumb motifs.
This is moment when you should not touch something that works very well anyway. Can't embed a light attack? Why can I do it even in lags? Maybe you will just press left mouse button more often huh? And yes, you nerf light attacks, so what's the point now? Just reduce numbers you don't like.

shadyjane62 · July 2022

Somebody, somewhere, got jabbed and this is the result.

stargleen · July 2022

Pls revert this change, this stupit motif is horrible, character animation is horrible. 2022 Zenimax, this animation it's very poorly done

Fabi95 · July 2022

Nevidyra wrote: »

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%

I agree. Personally I feel many of the new Templar changes are great (don't slap me yet, keep reading please, lol), but this change feels out out place. The Templar class is one of the easier classes to play and should stay as one. Making weaving mandatory to compensate lost damage, while nerfing it in general, feels out of place. Especially since light attacking between attacks should be bonus damage. But now it's mandatory to compensate lost damage, which isn't good - particularly since it's one less area hit, meaning one less healing attack too.

Nevidyra wrote: »

ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

This is actually a buff though! Any damage can trigger Burning Light now. You can trigger it easier and faster than before. I did once suggest in the Templar feedback thread to decouple Burning Light from Aedric Speer, because that forces us Templars to only use Jabs really. And now you can do a ranged build and still benefit from Burning Light, without suffering damage loss anymore (due to the passive being void for not using Aedric Speer skills).

The change to Radiant Aura, to make it finally useful, is also amazing. Thankfully ZOS did look through the Templar feedback thread and took some suggestions for improvements.

StarOfElyon · July 2022

UnassumingNoob wrote: »

Did all the Templar players quit? I think the new animation looks cool but the damage got roasted… why is there not more outcry from the Templar base?

If the damage on jabs got nerfed, good. It was carrying too many players and was really contributing to Templar becoming a brain dead class. I say this as a Templar from the start and I still love that character like it's my firstborn. But maybe now Templar players will have to be more reliant on other skills.

Firstmep · July 2022

Fabi95 wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%

I agree. Personally I feel many of the new Templar changes are great (don't slap me yet, keep reading please, lol), but this change feels out out place. The Templar class is one of the easier classes to play and should stay as one. Making weaving mandatory to compensate lost damage, while nerfing it in general, feels out of place. Especially since light attacking between attacks should be bonus damage. But now it's mandatory to compensate lost damage, which isn't good - particularly since it's one less area hit, meaning one less healing attack too.

Nevidyra wrote: »

ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

This is actually a buff though! Any damage can trigger Burning Light now. You can trigger it easier and faster than before. I did once suggest in the Templar feedback thread to decouple Burning Light from Aedric Speer, because that forces us Templars to only use Jabs really. And now you can do a ranged build and still benefit from Burning Light, without suffering damage loss anymore (due to the passive being void for not using Aedric Speer skills).

The change to Radiant Aura, to make it finally useful, is also amazing. Thankfully ZOS did look through the Templar feedback thread and took some suggestions for improvements.

The bl change is a straight dps nerf, but I also agree with not being forced to use jabs to proc it. That brings said with the 2 sec cooldown I think the 33% further dmg cut was uncalled for.

danno8 · July 2022

Fabi95 wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%

I agree. Personally I feel many of the new Templar changes are great (don't slap me yet, keep reading please, lol), but this change feels out out place. The Templar class is one of the easier classes to play and should stay as one. Making weaving mandatory to compensate lost damage, while nerfing it in general, feels out of place. Especially since light attacking between attacks should be bonus damage. But now it's mandatory to compensate lost damage, which isn't good - particularly since it's one less area hit, meaning one less healing attack too.

Nevidyra wrote: »

ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

This is actually a buff though! Any damage can trigger Burning Light now. You can trigger it easier and faster than before. I did once suggest in the Templar feedback thread to decouple Burning Light from Aedric Speer, because that forces us Templars to only use Jabs really. And now you can do a ranged build and still benefit from Burning Light, without suffering damage loss anymore (due to the passive being void for not using Aedric Speer skills).

The change to Radiant Aura, to make it finally useful, is also amazing. Thankfully ZOS did look through the Templar feedback thread and took some suggestions for improvements.

Are you sure you read the entire note on Burning Light?

"This passive now triggers after dealing damage with any attack, rather than only Aedric Spear abilities." -Great!
"Increased the cooldown of stack generation to 500ms, up from 1ms." -Uh oh. Once every 2 seconds is now the Max proc
"Reduced the damage of the proc by approximately 33%." - And when it does proc it is only 2/3rds the damage

So before it would proc every second with Jabs guaranteed. Now at best it is half that every 2 seconds. 50% nerf. And the damage is 33% less for a total of 66% nerf.

For example if it hits for 5000 on live after 2 seconds it would be 10000 total damage. On PTS it will hit for (5000*.66=3300) and only once every 2 seconds for 3300. 3300/10000= 66% damage nerf.

It's great they finally decoupled this passive from Aedric Spear, but at such a cost it hardly makes sense. It's just once again a sledgehammer instead of a reasonable amount. If the rate had remained the same (1ms instead of 500ms) but the damage was reduced by 33% you probably wouldn't have seen such a response.

Firstmep · July 2022

danno8 wrote: »

Fabi95 wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

ZOS, you removed an entire tick of damage from jabs and nerfed the remaining 3 damage ticks by 21%

I agree. Personally I feel many of the new Templar changes are great (don't slap me yet, keep reading please, lol), but this change feels out out place. The Templar class is one of the easier classes to play and should stay as one. Making weaving mandatory to compensate lost damage, while nerfing it in general, feels out of place. Especially since light attacking between attacks should be bonus damage. But now it's mandatory to compensate lost damage, which isn't good - particularly since it's one less area hit, meaning one less healing attack too.

Nevidyra wrote: »

ontop of a massive nerf to burning light. Templar does no damage now.

This is actually a buff though! Any damage can trigger Burning Light now. You can trigger it easier and faster than before. I did once suggest in the Templar feedback thread to decouple Burning Light from Aedric Speer, because that forces us Templars to only use Jabs really. And now you can do a ranged build and still benefit from Burning Light, without suffering damage loss anymore (due to the passive being void for not using Aedric Speer skills).

The change to Radiant Aura, to make it finally useful, is also amazing. Thankfully ZOS did look through the Templar feedback thread and took some suggestions for improvements.

Are you sure you read the entire note on Burning Light?

"This passive now triggers after dealing damage with any attack, rather than only Aedric Spear abilities." -Great!
"Increased the cooldown of stack generation to 500ms, up from 1ms." -Uh oh. Once every 2 seconds is now the Max proc
"Reduced the damage of the proc by approximately 33%." - And when it does proc it is only 2/3rds the damage

So before it would proc every second with Jabs guaranteed. Now at best it is half that every 2 seconds. 50% nerf. And the damage is 33% less for a total of 66% nerf.

For example if it hits for 5000 on live after 2 seconds it would be 10000 total damage. On PTS it will hit for (5000*.66=3300) and only once every 2 seconds for 3300. 3300/10000= 66% damage nerf.

It's great they finally decoupled this passive from Aedric Spear, but at such a cost it hardly makes sense. It's just once again a sledgehammer instead of a reasonable amount. If the rate had remained the same (1ms instead of 500ms) but the damage was reduced by 33% you probably wouldn't have seen such a response.

1ms cd on stack generation, while any instance of dmg can prov it would be beyond broken.
You would just stack up on dots and get insane amount of procs.
500 ms is fine, I'd rather see the revert the 33% nerf.
2 seconds is still great, considering you will still stack it faster than before when you had downtime on jabs.
Rn on live you really only have blazing spear giving you a stack each second when you are not jabbing, on pts you will get stacks every 500 ms even with just a few dots and la weaving.